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Somealt Ofmine
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Posted - 2008.08.29 19:53:00 -
[31]
It's because salvage was always intended to be in the "public domain" bud. When it was introduced a while back the devs said explicitly that wrecks in space don't belong to anyone.
They figured that many players would just leave them behind, and that salvaging would become a profession, like mining is. If you think of them as "yours" you'll just frustrate yourself. They aren't yours. They're just junk in space. They're yours if you get to them first.
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Becq Starforged
Minmatar Ship Construction Services Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2008.08.29 20:37:00 -
[32]
It's amazing how many carebears there are who think they should be able to rob mission runners with no risk whatsoever. Taking a wreck should flag you toward anyone who participated in making that wreck. As a concession, anyone should be able to tractor wrecks regardless of ownership (but doing so should flag them).
Note that the argument is NOT that wreck-thieving should be removed as an obption, only that players should be allowed the choice to defend their salvage. Aren't we continuously told that PvP is what EVE is all about? Why are wreck thieves given total immunity, then?
-- Becq Starforged Ushra'Khan
The Flame of Freedom Burns On! |
Marlenus
Caldari Ironfleet Towing And Salvage
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Posted - 2008.08.30 03:31:00 -
[33]
Per GM Faolchu : Originally by: GM Faolchu Salvaging other peoples wrecks.... This is an intended game mechanic and is in no way an exploit. People salvaging your missions npcs or the player you just blew up are doing nothing wrong. The players are salvaging what is effectively floating rubbish in space and Concord places no value on this wreckage.
Eve is a harsh place you won't always have everything go your way, its a do or die world and people do what they can to get along. If salvaging some wreckage gets them a few more ISK someone will do it, it doesn't matter who just blew it up.
Per Senior GM Ytterbium : Originally by: GM Ytterbium Players are still completely free to salvage other pilot wrecks at will ... and doing so is not considered as an exploit.
(These quotes are kept handy for your convenience at Ironfleet.com.) ------------------ Ironfleet.com |
Kyra Felann
Gallente Noctis Fleet Technologies
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Posted - 2008.08.30 04:51:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Sergeant Spot While I'd much rather enjoy watching paint dry than take the time and effort to steal salvage, and I view the whole concept of salvage theft as rather lame,.... don't expect CCP to make a change to it any time soon.
Its a pretty safe bet that CCP views salvage theft (and it IS theft) a lot like they view ore theft and can flipping.
Don't expect any big changes to the game mechanics of the issue. I've no doubt that 2 or 3 years from now, we'll still have people doing it.
You can pretend it's theft in your own fantasy world, but CCP has said more than once that it's not theft. It's not yours until it's in your cargo hold. Period.
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Wa'roun
The Scope
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Posted - 2008.08.30 05:01:00 -
[35]
There was a thread months about asking about this and someone pointed out that CCP may just be using international maritime law that states ship salvage is free to obtain, just not the cargo of the ship. Join channel: "Eve University" or read here |
Trathen
Minmatar SniggWaffe
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Posted - 2008.08.30 05:31:00 -
[36]
The simple explanation is that the value of salvaged components consists of the time and resources spent salvaging the wreck, not the time spent destroying the ship. That's what bounties and loot are for. _ |
Nexus1972
Pat Sharp's Potato Rodeo Daedalus Hegemony
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Posted - 2008.08.30 09:47:00 -
[37]
Well a few points, I did keep warping out but so did he for over an hour. After that failed I even logged and came back 45 mins later still. He was still there. If people are going to say level 4's need nerfing because of the low risk, which incendentally I think is unreasonably low, then surely ninja salvaging someone else level 4 is even less risk. As for being a carebear, far from it.I even shot wrecks that only encouraged him more.Only way I could shift him eventually was to actually end the mission. The salvage from level 4's brings in a lot of money, so there's the risk - the risk someone will 'steal' (in quotes deliberately as it isnt stealing per se atm) the wrecks. I think if wrecks really arent owned by anyone as several have said then anyone should be able to tractor a wreck that they didnt kill. ---------------------
Pat Sharpe's Potato Rodeo
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Malcanis
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2008.08.30 10:27:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Nexus1972 Okay I'm sure i've seen this talked about before, but due to the really bad search function on this forum and the fact i dont want to trawl through 100's of pages of topics to find the wreckage one i'm posting this here.
I hapily do level 4 missions and am more than happy to have the rewards nerfed. To be honest they need more risk. If someone wants to come and steal my cans i'm more than happy to engage in pvp to defend them. The problem is ninja salvagers can come in at no risk to themselves in an exequeror and mop up all the salvage and there isnt a damn thing pvp wise i can do to stop them short of suiciding them. How about making wreckage flagable and nerfing 4's rewards wise at the same time - maintains balance and introduces some real risk to people who ninja salvage from npc corps which are untouchable apart from suicidng which due to the proposed changes to insurance etc is pretty pointless. The only way I could get rid of my leech was to cacnel the mission. He then after refusing to take from a can to flag himself suggested i should go play kitty online when it is he who wants to be safe from repurcusions.
WHy should ninja salvagers, contract scammers be without risk to themselves. How about making it so we can see who alt characters actually are. I'd be more than happy for people to see my alts - why shouldnt others.
So when some ninja salvager turns up in his 3M ISK salvaging Heron/Cormorant/whatever, you're gonna shoot at him in your T2/Faction-fit CNR, right?
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
Malcanis
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2008.08.30 10:28:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Becq Starforged It's amazing how many carebears there are who think they should be able to rob mission runners with no risk whatsoever. Taking a wreck should flag you toward anyone who participated in making that wreck. As a concession, anyone should be able to tractor wrecks regardless of ownership (but doing so should flag them).
Note that the argument is NOT that wreck-thieving should be removed as an obption, only that players should be allowed the choice to defend their salvage. Aren't we continuously told that PvP is what EVE is all about? Why are wreck thieves given total immunity, then?
Think of it as paying the CONCORD tax. You can defend your wrecks all you like in lo-sec...
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
Jik Tueozy
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Posted - 2008.08.30 16:16:00 -
[40]
Other people in the thread are stating "this is how salvage in the real world works" but it doesn't. There are stipulations in the Admiralty law that state someone salvaging a wreck that isn't a treasure wreck (lost for hundreds of years and essentially no-one can still lay claim) must bring their haul before a court of law who will then order a payout based on the 'merit' or how difficult the salvage was (High and Low Orders) but it is seldom more than 50% of the total hauled.
The next is laying claim or "arresting" a wreck. Once that it done lawfully it is then your property to do with as you will. There is the reasonably well know case of the confederate ship the CSS Alabama, where the ships bell had been kept by an antiques store owner. When he tried to sell it the government came calling, all US Governmental ship wrecks are their property, going all the way back to the civil war.
Basically it all boils down to if you have a claim to the wreck, you should have the ability to defend it. As Bacq Starforged pointed out.
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Timaios
Art of War
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Posted - 2008.08.30 16:50:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Jik Tueozy RL quote
Eve is different from RL. In EVE, the rulings of the GM and the game mechanics are the actual laws of the society and the basis of ownership and (perceived) crimes. Your RL analogy has no place here.
(Besides, we're talking about the ships someone has deliberately destroyed. I'd quess that RL has no international law that states that destroyed naval vessels become the property of the person who sunk them.)
In EVE, the wreck belongs to the owner of the ship, not to the person destroying the ship. In rats' case, it belongs to the faction the ship originally was part of. In player-owned ship, the player who was piloting the ship also claims ownership of (modules in) the wreck as far as the game mechanics work. Getting criminally flagged for taking the remaining modules or salvaging a ship you've lost yourself would seem pretty silly, wouldn't it?
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Bald Rikk
The Legendary Fleet
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Posted - 2008.08.30 17:08:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Miki Fin
So when I run lvl 4 missions in high sec, that's being smart and they don't need to be nerfed at all?
/me scours this post for a point Wait... Isn't there another thread about that... that way -->
-- Baldrikk
Originally by: CCP Explorer You can still steal their stuff.
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Jik Tueozy
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Posted - 2008.08.30 21:55:00 -
[43]
Edited by: Jik Tueozy on 30/08/2008 21:57:37
Originally by: Timaios Eve is different from RL. In EVE, the rulings of the GM and the game mechanics are the actual laws of the society and the basis of ownership and (perceived) crimes. Your RL analogy has no place here.
Agreed, I understand its CCP's world, we just play in it.
My intentions were point out the differences between Eve and true maritime law that someone else had suggested was where the developers were supposed to have gotten their rules from, evidently that information wasn't accurately communicated.
I still like Becq's solution though. Give both parties involved equal claim to the wreck for a limited time after that it's a free for all.
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Malcanis
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2008.08.30 22:06:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Jik Tueozy Edited by: Jik Tueozy on 30/08/2008 21:57:37
Originally by: Timaios Eve is different from RL. In EVE, the rulings of the GM and the game mechanics are the actual laws of the society and the basis of ownership and (perceived) crimes. Your RL analogy has no place here.
Agreed, I understand its CCP's world, we just play in it.
My intentions were point out the differences between Eve and true maritime law that someone else had suggested was where the developers were supposed to have gotten their rules from, evidently that information wasn't accurately communicated.
I still like Becq's solution though. Give both parties involved equal claim to the wreck for a limited time after that it's a free for all.
We're in a game where the police will kill you for destroying an empty jet can, but won't do a thing if you get scammed for billions...
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
Quesa
Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2008.08.30 22:18:00 -
[45]
Loot is yours, and you can defend it.
Salvage is just that, salvage. Junk that someone else is getting to before you can.
It's part of the game, and there isn't much you can do about it. Some things in this game are always going to make you mad, and you will want changed...but thats also something thats good to have in a game. Successfull games will always have stuff that you like and hate, it allows people to be diverse in their roles.
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Nexus1972
Pat Sharp's Potato Rodeo Daedalus Hegemony
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Posted - 2008.08.31 09:23:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Quesa Loot is yours, and you can defend it.
Salvage is just that, salvage. Junk that someone else is getting to before you can.
It's part of the game, and there isn't much you can do about it. Some things in this game are always going to make you mad, and you will want changed...but thats also something thats good to have in a game. Successfull games will always have stuff that you like and hate, it allows people to be diverse in their roles.
Well if salvage really is that and no ownership is implied and concord attach no value to wrecks WTF do they attack you when you shoot someone else's wreck?
It's inconsistent - either wrecks have no ownership or they do have ownership. There must be some 'ownership' flagged to allow some people to tractor/shoot the wreck without getting concorded yet I cannot tractor someone else's salvage or shoot their wreck.
CCP need to either set salvage to no ownership at all or they need to enforce ownership. I dont care which they choose. ---------------------
Pat Sharpe's Potato Rodeo
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James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.08.31 09:25:00 -
[47]
You leave junk. Someone tidies it up. What makes you think that stuff abandoned in space is 'yours'? -- Crane needs more grid 249km locking? |
deza11
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Posted - 2008.08.31 12:08:00 -
[48]
Salvage sucks tbh. I only consider salvaging Angel missions due to the trit bars, and I do that as I go. The rest really are quite worthless. I've thought about making rigs but even with good skills, the profit made is miminal compared to just selling the stuff straight to the market.
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Telaan
Pat Sharp's Potato Rodeo Daedalus Hegemony
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Posted - 2008.09.01 00:22:00 -
[49]
If you shoot a wreck, you will suffer the consequences. If you loot a wreck, you will suffer the consequences. If you salvage a wreck, nothing bad happens to you.
My own opinion is that this needs to change. The whole point of EVE is that there is a risk/reward structure in place for virtually any chosen profession. If you run missions, you might die to rats (embarrassing). If you pirate people, you might die to their gank squads. If you try to wipe out other corporations, you might find yourself under attack from a large alliance. And so on.
Salvaging wrecks should have a check based upon who the wreck was created by. If you are not in the same corp as the wrecker, then you should be flagged as a thief and expect people to come after you. |
Ashlee Darksky
Minmatar Forum Insurgency
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Posted - 2008.09.01 00:38:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Miki Fin
Originally by: Ashlee Darksky
I think it's funny when people salvage my missions No, really I do. Hats off to them for engaging in an isk making activity with little risk - thats not "unfair" thats just being smart.
So when I run lvl 4 missions in high sec, that's being smart and they don't need to be nerfed at all?
Nope, go try and fund multiple capitals from L4 missions.... I'll see you in 10 years... bye!
---
> I see fail everywhere, and it's like they don't even know they're failing
> Bring me the heads of 10 carebears, 5 bottles of BBQ sauce, firewood and a box of matches! |
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Danton Marcellus
Nebula Rasa Holdings
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Posted - 2008.09.01 00:53:00 -
[51]
Flag people in NPC corporations interfering with your salvage, for all others there are ample solutions already.
Should/would/could have, HAVE you chav!
Also Known As |
Alex Tantra
Firestorm Projects Capital Storm
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Posted - 2008.09.01 00:59:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Atlas Elestra
also maybe this sounds crazy to you folk, but when I was starting out and in a pretty weak ship, and I'd see some wrecks just lying there if the person who created them was still in the area...I'd (steady yourself) Ask them if I could salvage thier wrecks... Usually they said yes, and even on occasion they fleeted with me hence giving me access to the loot they didn't want.
qft ________________________________________________________ |
Manos Malos
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Posted - 2008.09.01 02:31:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Nexus1972 ...to trawl through...
Quoted for correct spelling of an often misspelled word. |
Terrak2
Retribution Corp.
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Posted - 2008.09.01 05:34:00 -
[54]
i think the whole fact here is, the mission runner has spent many a month of training time and running missions to get a ship to run level IV's, then u have a 3 day old character come in and salvage all the wrecks from your mission, so basically they are getting everything for nothing. All your hard work to kill the rats just to have someone who hasn't spent any time or any effort in training skills except to salvage get away scott free.
they guy running the mission never stole other peoples wrecks for salvage etc.. he now has say 15 million SP over the space of a year to get where he is and worked hard to kill the rats and salvage his loot then some little ***** comes in and steals it.
that should be flagged..... u say wrecks don't belong to anyone.. well infact they do.. they wouldn't be wrecks if the missioner hadn't blown the rat up....so in all honesty u keep what you kill and earn...
just stop being lame idiots and go learn some skills and do your own missions and salvage your own wrecks.. |
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