EVE Search - Company Policy is destroying the CCP we love

All Channels

EVE General Discussion

Company Policy is destroying the CCP we love

» Click here to find additional results for this topic using Google

Monitor this thread via RSS [?]

Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 :: [one page]
Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 14 post(s)
Evelgrivion Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.08.28 10:22:00 - [1] Edited by: Evelgrivion on 28/08/2008 10:26:52 EVE Online is in a crisis. The policies put into place by CCP's PR and marketing departments, the complete uselessness of the Eve Online forums, and the developer's complete unwillingness to contribute to discussions are serving to destroy the community. If things do not change, the company will not be far behind, and the universe of New Eden will ultimately die. With the goal of controlling public perception of CCP's corporate image, the marketing department and public relations groups have been doing much to damage communications between developers and players. Developers are strongly discouraged from contributing in any thread that does not pertain to their assigned roles. Gone are the days where the employees could talk about the cool shit that they were working on. Gone is the time when developer and community interaction helped generate some of those new ideas that drive the game forwards. Though the developers are allowed to contribute in some ways, policy continues to discourage it. Whenever a developer posts in the forums, they inevitably get ****ed on from all directions. However, the developers are limited to shooting blanks. The Public Relations policy regarding the shit responses to serious efforts at community interaction is to "grow a thicker skin or don't post." Obviously, the vast majority of CCP's 300 odd employees choose not to say anything. Thanks a lot for that, Marketing. We really appreciate it. While these forums were created with the purpose of facilitating interaction between developers and players, the Eve Online forums can be best described as a festering cesspool. The moderation team currently employed by CCP is not up to the task. There are far too many people posting far too much stuff to expect any reasonable measure of control with only two active moderators. Swamped with work, the decay into an ever growing mess of memes, 'poasting' and trolling is ongoing. This has to change. At this point, I'm not entirely against nuking this place and starting over. Meanwhile, reintroducing volunteer based forum moderation deserves serious consideration. If nothing else, please remember this. THE CORNERSTONE OF EVE ONLINE IS THE COMMUNITY. Eve Online was founded on people who like to play video games, creating the video games that they, as gamers, want to play. CCP needs to keep this firmly in mind going into the future. Otherwise, they risk losing the community that this game was built on, their identity as the game developer with the guts to do things differently than the other faceless companies out there, and ultimately, their very business itself. We are a community of players, not an interactive bankroll. Please turn things around before it's too late. I Reserve the right to re-write some or all of this post for the purpose of improvement at any time.
Evelgrivion Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.08.28 10:23:00 - [2] reserved
Sheriff Jones Amarr Clinical Experiment	Posted - 2008.08.28 10:25:00 - [3] Edited by: Sheriff Jones on 28/08/2008 10:27:32 Edited by: Sheriff Jones on 28/08/2008 10:25:22 Originally by: Evelgrivion EVE Online is in a crisis. The policies put into place by CCP's PR and marketing departments, the complete uselessness of the Eve Online forums, and the developer's complete unwillingness to contribute to discussions are serving to destroy the community. If things do not change, the company will not be far behind, and the universe of New Eden will ultimately die. With the goal of controlling public perception of CCP's corporate image, the marketing department and public relations groups have been doing much to damage communications between developers and players. Developers are strongly discouraged from contributing in any thread that does not pertain to their assigned roles. Gone are the days where the employees could talk about the cool shit that they were working on. Gone is the time when developer and community interaction helped generate some of those new ideas that drive the game forwards. Though the developers are allowed to contribute in some ways, policy continues to discourage it. Whenever a developer posts in the forums, they inevitably get **ed on from all directions. However, the developers are limited to shooting blanks. The Public Relations policy regarding the shit responses to serious efforts at community interaction is to "grow a thicker skin or don't post." Obviously, the vast majority of CCP's 300 odd employees choose not to say anything. Thanks a lot for that, Marketing. We really appreciate it. While these forums were created with the purpose of facilitating interaction between developers and players, the Eve Online forums can be best described as a festering cesspool. The moderation team currently employed by CCP is not up to the task. There are far too many people posting far too much stuff to expect any reasonable measure of control with only two active moderators. Swamped with work, the decay into an ever growing mess of memes, 'poasting' and trolling is ongoing. This has to change. At this point, I'm not entirely against nuking this place and starting over. Meanwhile, reintroducing volunteer based forum moderation deserves serious consideration. THE CORNERSTONE OF EVE ONLINE IS THE COMMUNITY. Eve Online was founded on people who like to play video games, creating the video games that they, as gamers, want to play. CCP needs to keep this firmly in mind going into the future. Otherwise, they risk losing the community that this game was built on, their identity as the game developer with the guts to do things differently than the other faceless companies out there, and ultimately, their very business itself. We are a community of players, not an interactive bankroll. Please turn things around before it's too late. I Reserve the right to re-write some or all of this post for the purpose of improvement at any time.** I reserve the right to quote this post to keep the original post in context Now, it's a good policy. Keep the info in a strict leash, limit people from CCP saying things that aren't meant to be said, use the CSM more effectively as a bumper. Things work. Only thing that's a "problem" here is that you don't get an answer from CCP "RIGHT NOW!!!", but a 13 response AND fix time to previous issue showed that, they work damn fast for the MMO scene. I've personalyl seen what can happen when too many devs get their right to "tell things". Chaos, speculation, guesses...it's not good. My opinions represent the opinions of my corporation completely. I'm the CEO damnit.
Death4free Caldari Death Monkey's With Knives	Posted - 2008.08.28 10:26:00 - [4] i support this as it does infact suck balls that ccp never talks to us on any real issues Eve information kiosk
Karanth Gallente Eve's Brothers of Destiny FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2008.08.28 10:28:00 - [5] Well, CCP IS a company, and the bigger things get, the more that will manifest. I'm not saying we're screwed, but EVE is like everything else. It changes, and sometimes people fail to adapt to the changes, and the body count goes up. I'd hope that a game I love wouldn't die like that, of all things, but I'm at a loss as to how things can really be changed here. Begging and pleading only seems to work when everyone shits up the forums about nanos or ECM of God knows whatever the fad is now. And well-written heartfelt requests? Crapshoot, at best. --- Wheel of Whineage
Deviana Sevidon Gallente Panta-Rhei United Front Alliance	Posted - 2008.08.28 10:33:00 - [6] What did you really expect. A forum lives from the community and their is only so much that a Developer can do. I do not know if the marketing department discourages Devs from interacting with the community, but I know for sure that community itself is part of the problem. Look at CAOD and you will see the future of all of this forums. It is also a fact that a Dev who makes a funny or even gives a personal opinion about a thing, is getting screamed at from all sides. The community went down the drain a long time ago and that is the fault of persons within CCP but also of certain, very vocal members of the community. I have honestly no idea how to fix this. The only thing that those people who are not interested in trolling and derailing threads have at the moment, is that the whole thing implodes, to make room for a fresh start.
ApaKaka Lone Starr Corporation	Posted - 2008.08.28 10:36:00 - [7] Sadly, a part of the corporate life is that with growth comes more uniformity, more rules, and less interaction. This is natural because with the more people under you who may not share the exact vision you and your friends had when you created your little start-up, the more you will have to micro-manage and make decisions. With 300 employees this is not possible, so RULES (horror!) have to be made to keep everyone in check and line to push your vision forward. With RULES comes FEAR, the fear that you might not be representing the views of the other 299 people (and especially the company's visions) when you talk to your user-base. So instead of being vocal and interacting directly with a user-base, you create MORE RULES which regulate this interaction. This is a sad part of every company in the world, and there's nothing to do about it but hope that as a paying customer to said company, your visions and their visions will be going ahead in the same direction.
Evelgrivion Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.08.28 10:37:00 - [8] Edited by: Evelgrivion on 28/08/2008 10:41:10 Originally by: Sheriff Jones Now, it's a good policy. Keep the info in a strict leash, limit people from CCP saying things that aren't meant to be said, use the CSM more effectively as a bumper. Things work. Only thing that's a "problem" here is that you don't get an answer from CCP "RIGHT NOW!!!", but a 13 response AND fix time to previous issue showed that, they work damn fast for the MMO scene. I've personalyl seen what can happen when too many devs get their right to "tell things". Chaos, speculation, guesses...it's not good. I fail to see how it is a good policy. EVE Online grew up around players and developers bouncing and trading ideas to help make the game better, and I don't think you know what's going on behind the scenes enough if you actually think that 'things work'. I'm not talking about game balance, game design, or any of that crap. I'm talking about CCP's relationship with it's community, and to a shrouded, lesser degree, it's management. I've only been around for a couple of years, and have even less time communicating with the developers. Yet, even with that limited time, there is a schism growing between the developers and management, and it is starting to cost CCP veteran players, and even employees. Believe me, despite what the marketing department wants people to believe, things are not all well in Iceland. I just hope the bosses wise up to this, despite the influx of subscriptions. The number of people who stick around for 7 months should not be the metric to judge success when the methods that are breeding these current successes make the veterans, the real drivers and power players in the universe, want to pack their bags and leave. If you want solutions, here they are: Bring back heavy, volunteer based, forum moderation. Give the developers the right to make their voices known in the community again.
Sheriff Jones Amarr Clinical Experiment	Posted - 2008.08.28 10:38:00 - [9] Edited by: Sheriff Jones on 28/08/2008 10:38:16 By the way, the reason why CCP answers less, is because... takes off nice cowboy hat puts on naughty cowboy hat Yes i'm this serious... BECAUSE the community was a bunch of whining crying babies and CCP did MORE then their best to cater to every need, more then ANY other company ever had done, to a hollywood blond 16 year old BRAT, and now the community is in a lullafied state of over-protection, teetsucking, infant like behaviour and frankly, spoiled puts good hat back on They don't answer less, they answer like normal MMO developers. My opinions represent the opinions of my corporation completely. I'm the CEO damnit.
Jimer Lins Gallente Federation Fleet	Posted - 2008.08.28 10:38:00 - [10] I'm an old man by the standards of most people here and by the standards of online gaming, I'm pretty much a Neanderthal. Meaning I played online games on green-screen monitors with an update rate of 1 refresh every 5 seconds. (Empire, anyone? I'll have your ass in that game...) So first- get off my lawn. ;) In all seriousness, though... I've been around a lot of online games, and offline ones with an online presence- running the gamut from FPS, RTS, MMO, and pretty much everything in between. Now, I haven't played EVERY game out there, and my MMO experience is more limited than my other gaming experience. However, I will say unequivocally that CCP has the best relationship with their community of any gaming company I've personally ever seen or interacted with. Their level of engagement, the quality of the discussions had, the openness and honesty exhibited by CCP's devs, GMs, content developers and staff is unparalleled, and their love for their game and the people who play it is eminently visible in every interaction I've ever had with them. Do they make mistakes? Sure. Do they sometimes leave us hanging? Yup, at least according to our perception. But they're not losing touch with their community, and they're still engaged in a deep way, from my perspective.
Davina Braben	Posted - 2008.08.28 10:38:00 - [11] You guys are a bunch of whiny ****-stains. Every single change or mooted change produces a torrent of wailing, red faces and nappy rash. Read through general disco a bit and tell me if you would honestly bother if you were an EVE Dev and not getting specifically paid to post in here.
Lazuran Gallente Aliastra	Posted - 2008.08.28 10:40:00 - [12] Originally by: Davina Braben You guys are a bunch of whiny ****-stains. Every single change or mooted change produces a torrent of wailing, red faces and nappy rash. Read through general disco a bit and tell me if you would honestly bother if you were an EVE Dev and not getting specifically paid to post in here. True, but at the same time most whines and flamewars here could be avoided if CCP acted more sensibly and concentrated on fixing problems instead of introducing new ones.
Seeing EyeDog	Posted - 2008.08.28 10:44:00 - [13] Originally by: Death4free i support this as it does infact suck balls that ccp never talks to us on any real issues what do you mean? They addressed a srsbsnss issue yesterday! They made sure that Chribba's high sec dread was restored back to its original position! Nevermind the lag, the broken "features" and various other things...as long as the whiner got his Veldnaught moved ack to precious high sec, the Eve community can now breathe a sigh of relief. _____________________ Originally by: Locus Bey Intelligence isn't a prequisite for being a Goon, in fact its a deficit.
Armoured C Gallente The Aztecs Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2008.08.28 10:44:00 - [14] i thought as having a community manager that wrangler would like to sometimes post more than the useual one liner of trolling lock ect it would be nice for him to engage in converstation, obvisoulsy having to keep with in the guide lines, but showing that he just not some robot. I have moderated forums from a previous small web browser game but i still managed to keep talking and still play the game. but 9000 people is alot less people that 200,000 and we dont know what he has to do on the side lines other than moderate the forums i miss the older CCP although i dont miss the hundreds of bookmarks
Davina Braben	Posted - 2008.08.28 10:47:00 - [15] Originally by: Lazuran Originally by: Davina Braben You guys are a bunch of whiny ****-stains. Every single change or mooted change produces a torrent of wailing, red faces and nappy rash. Read through general disco a bit and tell me if you would honestly bother if you were an EVE Dev and not getting specifically paid to post in here. True, but at the same time most whines and flamewars here could be avoided if CCP acted more sensibly and concentrated on fixing problems instead of introducing new ones. Nope. Then the complaints would be that the game was getting stale, there was no new content, that people had tried everything blah blah blah Q Q Q Q Q There's always complaining ( unless you ban everyone who complains. Hey Smedley o/). It is in the nature of the forums.
Cygnus Zhada Amarr Reckless Corsairs	Posted - 2008.08.28 10:47:00 - [16] Fix the forums, lose the shitpoasting, ban obvious poasting alts (and grab their mains too). That would certainly help.
Crimsonjade Amarr Secret Service	Posted - 2008.08.28 10:52:00 - [17] got to start off on a good note. so take the PR dept on a Fishing trip! however don't tell them your fishing for sharks and they are the bait :)
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2008.08.28 10:52:00 - [18] And there was me thinking the various different forums all had different purposes. The cornerstone of EVE is the community. So let's nuke it. Right. The incessant whining is the community. Most of it should be ignored. And as has been pointed out by others, it's a bigger operation than it used to be, it cannot be as transparent as it used to be. - DesuSigs
Cygnus Zhada Amarr Reckless Corsairs	Posted - 2008.08.28 10:54:00 - [19] Originally by: Crumplecorn And there was me thinking the various different forums all had different purposes. The cornerstone of EVE is the community. So let's nuke it. Right. The incessant whining is the community. Most of it should be ignored. And as has been pointed out by others, it's a bigger operation than it used to be, it cannot be as transparent as it used to be. At the same time, the low signal to noise ratio gets tiresome.
Lazuran Gallente Aliastra	Posted - 2008.08.28 10:54:00 - [20] Edited by: Lazuran on 28/08/2008 10:55:15 Originally by: Davina Braben Originally by: Lazuran Originally by: Davina Braben You guys are a bunch of whiny **-stains. Every single change or mooted change produces a torrent of wailing, red faces and nappy rash. Read through general disco a bit and tell me if you would honestly bother if you were an EVE Dev and not getting specifically paid to post in here. True, but at the same time most whines and flamewars here could be avoided if CCP acted more sensibly and concentrated on fixing problems instead of introducing new ones. Nope. Then the complaints would be that the game was getting stale, there was no new content, that people had tried everything blah blah blah Q Q Q Q Q Wrong, the game has been practically stale for years, noone complained much (except the miners). Whines are 50% lag 40% nerf/buff whines 10% miscellaneous crap. Quote:** There's always complaining ( unless you ban everyone who complains. Hey Smedley o/). It is in the nature of the forums. There has never been so much complaining and as you can read elsewhere, it's usually triggered by haphazard attempts to "fix" stuff that isn't broken while stuff that is broken (lag) is left as it is. Recent examples for huge whine threads: Carrier nerf, Nano nerf, Chribba nerf ...
Rhatar Khurin Minmatar Native Freshfood	Posted - 2008.08.28 11:00:00 - [21] Originally by: Lazuran True, but at the same time most whines and flamewars here could be avoided if CCP acted more sensibly and concentrated on fixing problems instead of introducing new ones. Hmm, but it seems that what many peeps whine about it the proposed fixes to problems that make previous FOTMs less effective as before. I think CCP are trying to do what's best, but it seems no-matter what they implement, there's a week long general discussion whine thread about it from some corner of the community. I do agree that CCP havent been as vocal in the last year as they have been in the past about ideas and such. Maybe they're very busy doing important stuff and havent finalised their ideas yet and will shower us with fun things when they're finished.
fuze Chosen Path Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2008.08.28 11:01:00 - [22] Part of gagging devs is due to the fact some of them got a little too close with a certain alliance. I agree with the OP about devs getting more into touch with the community. And to add something extra I also think devs should get into touch with eachother more since I'm getting the impression lately that they all are living on their own seperate isles. (Veldnaught drama, nano nerf etc)
An Anarchyyt Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.08.28 11:04:00 - [23] I don't know why you don't seem to understand the issues. Volunteers in Eve could not be trusted. Much more important is why the Dev posts are disappearing. When 500 people jump on a Dev because of ANYTHING they post, that isn't going to make people want to post more. Before you can even think about asking them to post more, the community needs to rabble slightly less. If some Dev goes "I think this is what happens" or "this is what I'd like" no matter what it is and no matter who they are, people act like this is now some giant edict from CCP and that is what is going to happen. Frankly, if I was a Dev, I wouldn't talk to you people either. Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
Pan Crastus Anti-Metagaming League	Posted - 2008.08.28 11:10:00 - [24] Edited by: Pan Crastus on 28/08/2008 11:10:00 Originally by: Rhatar Khurin Originally by: Lazuran True, but at the same time most whines and flamewars here could be avoided if CCP acted more sensibly and concentrated on fixing problems instead of introducing new ones. Hmm, but it seems that what many peeps whine about it the proposed fixes to problems that make previous FOTMs less effective as before. I think CCP are trying to do what's best, but it seems no-matter what they implement, there's a week long general discussion whine thread about it from some corner of the community. Nanos and Carriers aren't FOTM. The problem with such nerfs is that a) one of the ways to play the game is destroyed, b) something else becomes the FOTM so the nerf circle becomes a circlejerk (CCP vocabulary there). Proper balancing is done by slightly buffing things that seem underpowered, for example they could buff the missile velocity/explosive velocity rigs or even add a minimum damage for all missiles (so e.g. 25% damage modulo sig radius instead of 0 if they actually reach the target). Especially with the nano nerf the problem is just one of wrong perception - too many people ignoring the countless counters to nano ships and CCP not simply telling them what they are. Quote: I do agree that CCP havent been as vocal in the last year as they have been in the past about ideas and such. Maybe they're very busy doing important stuff and havent finalised their ideas yet and will shower us with fun things when they're finished. Lots of maybes. Maybe they just don't want to invest as much time in EVE as they used to because it's not worth it, people pay/play anyway. How to PVP: 1. buy ISK with GTCs, 2. fit cloak, learn aggro mechanics, 3. buy second account for metagaming
Niccolado Starwalker Shadow Templars	Posted - 2008.08.28 11:11:00 - [25] Edited by: Niccolado Starwalker on 28/08/2008 11:15:13 Originally by: Evelgrivion [...] If nothing else, please remember this. THE CORNERSTONE OF EVE ONLINE IS THE COMMUNITY. Didn't read the whole text. Too much resemblance of "Text of Wall (TM)". However I wholeheartedly agree with you in what was written in large capital letters! But, whats more is the DEV interaction with the community! Thats why I find it sad to see that Oveur have disappeared from the community. Ok, I know we have some other excellent devs here communicating with us, but many oldtimers view the dissappearance as loosing a friend. Thats how the community was back in 2005 when i joined up! Personally I think the changes came when the company grew larger and when they ended up having like 200-300 employees. Its hard to say it, but in SOME ways I liked the old CCP better.. At that time, the devs knew where they had the players. And the players knew where they had the devs. Now we have devs shying away from forums because as soon they utter words they are immediately flamed for it. ADDED: For those commenting the devs grew too close to "certain alliances" thin of this: The devs have commented that there are for example far more devs in Goons then in BoB. So please dont open that can again. When that is said, the devs have ALWAYS been close to its members! That is the cornerstone of EVE! But that have always been with their integrity intact! And please, leave any dead beaten horses at the horseyeard! Originally by: Dianabolic Your tears are absolutely divine, like a fine fine wine, rolling down your cheeks until they flow down the river of LOL
Scagga Laebetrovo Ammatar Free Corps	Posted - 2008.08.28 11:12:00 - [26] The simple solution is a mass genocide of EVE players (ingame). Grief them out of the game and you'll get the attention you miss. "I had a read of the General discussion section. Part of my empathy to my fellow man died."
imouttahere	Posted - 2008.08.28 11:16:00 - [27] CCP have given up on talking to a bunch of screaming, whining players who think they know what is best for Eve. That's why they introduced the CSM.
Havohej The Defias Brotherhood	Posted - 2008.08.28 11:19:00 - [28] Originally by: Scagga Laebetrovo The simple solution is a mass genocide of EVE players (ingame). Grief them out of the game and you'll get the attention you miss. Too bad they're steadily ruling against anything remotely grief-like, even if it's legit, non-exploitative, run-o'-the-mill gameplay. It'd be a race to grief the whiners out of the game before CCP could nerf your means of doing so... I think the nerf bat would strike faster. Originally by: CCP Explorer You can still steal their stuff.
Pan Crastus Anti-Metagaming League	Posted - 2008.08.28 11:23:00 - [29] Originally by: imouttahere CCP have given up on talking to a bunch of screaming, whining players who think they know what is best for Eve. That's why they introduced the CSM. The CSM is just a bunch of powerless scapegoats for both sides, it was a brilliant tactical move by CCP. Bad replacement for handling the organized mass whines vs. nanos in the proven way though (by locking threads and pointing people to existing threads in the features and ideas forum). The result is just so many more whine threads, it's really getting hard to wade through all the junk on eve-o ... How to PVP: 1. buy ISK with GTCs, 2. fit cloak, learn aggro mechanics, 3. buy second account for metagaming
Haraldhardrade Amarr Pax Amarr	Posted - 2008.08.28 11:25:00 - [30] Originally by: Havohej Originally by: Scagga Laebetrovo The simple solution is a mass genocide of EVE players (ingame). Grief them out of the game and you'll get the attention you miss. Too bad they're steadily ruling against anything remotely grief-like, even if it's legit, non-exploitative, run-o'-the-mill gameplay. It'd be a race to grief the whiners out of the game before CCP could nerf your means of doing so... I think the nerf bat would strike faster. Spot on! CCP make no secret of their desire to have more causal gamers play their game. EVE was considered to be a 'game for griefers' by the average generic fantasy mmo player, then CCP started nerfing things left and right and voila, their player base increased. In the past, there were countless of threads in general discussion about new players complaining about the game being difficult. There are hardly any threads like that anymore, and when it is, its usually a veteran trolling with a comedy account. The facts speaks for themselves. Damage nerf, warp to zero, reduced price of cloning, jump clones etc; the list is filled with 'features' created in order to stop people from being discoured to continue to play on after they loose their stuff. Caveo of Minmatar , torva vacuus regimen of deus es plurrimi periculosus of bestia
ShardowRhino Caldari Legion 0f The Damned	Posted - 2008.08.28 11:37:00 - [31] Originally by: Scagga Laebetrovo The simple solution is a mass genocide of EVE players (ingame). Grief them out of the game and you'll get the attention you miss. can we start with the chribacrybabies first? Personally I would prefer the devs do their work then hang around on the forums. Devblog seems fine, let us know what they are working on. People can then spam the forum and devs might check it out to see what people are saying and suggesting. If people are screaming at a dev when he posts, wtf makes you think he would want to talk to such a bunch of dirty ***s again? If you can't act normal with a dev then you should be slammed with some kind of temp ban on the forum and then in game if its needed for repeat idio...i mean offenders. That is why the devblog is going to be their choice for communicating to the playerbase. They can say what they want but not have to put up with your bullshit. Its gotta be a bit annoying to have 100 idiots spamming stupid crap such as the chribpa thread and getting rules bent for him. If i was a dev id have ***slapped anyone questioning my authortah with a temp ban for a day from the forum at least. Rhinos rule with an iron fist and leave the velvet glove for your mom to give us a HJ as you whine But feel lucky im not a dev. They dont get paid to take your bullshit, they dont get paid to do favors for anyone, they aren't DJs and take requests. People crying and screaming about devs not talking to them on 1 on 1 basis needs to get their head checked and their egos deflated. None of you suckas is worth a dev's time,especially in my eyes. I want those devs working like good little elfs hammering out a better game for my damn pleasure. They should be treated like a bad mimtard when they try to screw around on the forum by the giant brain in a jar that keeps ccp buzzing along. In the words of Devo,"WHIP IT, WHIP IT GOOD!!!!" seriously how many things do you buy and get special attention from those in charge of making it? I know if i got special attention from directors of some movies id crack em upside the head or chew em out for not having the lead actress show more then a bit of sideboob. If the old dude that ran Wendy's was still around id have wanted to break a kneecap of his if he didn't refund the $9 i got charged for a subpar fast food meal and hiring someone that barely speaks english to take my order. Now if i could get ahold of smedly .....well lets just say he would be in to much pain to cry, if you want to see a failstate of an mmo company go check out sony online "entertainment" and their president, with all the effectiveness of vincent fox and jimmy carter all rolled into one.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2008.08.28 11:38:00 - [32] Originally by: Haraldhardrade Damage nerf, warp to zero, reduced price of cloning, jump clones etc; the list is filled with 'features' created in order to stop people from being discoured to continue to play on after they loose their stuff. Actually WTZ was added to remove bookmarks, everyone with half a brain had WTZ anyway. And close prices were originally set back when no-one needed the higher end ones, I think they also introduced higher-end clones at the same time? Just saying. - DesuSigs
Schani Kratnorr x13	Posted - 2008.08.28 11:40:00 - [33] Agree, the forums are done. Ban Goons from game and forum and be done with it. CSM has flawed conseptual design - paying customers NEVER know what's good for them. Also allowing ******s like Goons in is just wrong, as they do not have any interest in playing their assigned part. With 200K+ players/accounts things are bound to be broken. I do not think forums are the right way to go with a community of this size. More moderation would help. Too many posters get around the "no alts" rule, and WAY too many off-topic one-liner posts are allowed to linger. Quality is suffering and a good 30% of posts can be easily labeled "ignore". "Suggestion" posts epedemic spreading to other forums is a good example of what the moderators should be concerned about. If good ideas arent posted in the right place, we wont ever get to see them in-game.
Pan Crastus Anti-Metagaming League	Posted - 2008.08.28 11:43:00 - [34] Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: Haraldhardrade Damage nerf, warp to zero, reduced price of cloning, jump clones etc; the list is filled with 'features' created in order to stop people from being discoured to continue to play on after they loose their stuff. Actually WTZ was added to remove bookmarks, everyone with half a brain had WTZ anyway. Hm, no. You had WTZ for some (few) regions and usually only from 1 particular direction. That's a huge difference to WTZ as it is now (warp to gate/station at 0 from anywhere). WTZ was a good addition anyhow in my opinion, but it would have been better with a much larger universe because nowdays you can roam 100 jumps easily. How to PVP: 1. buy ISK with GTCs, 2. fit cloak, learn aggro mechanics, 3. buy second account for metagaming
Glengrant TOHA Heavy Industries	Posted - 2008.08.28 11:44:00 - [35] What's wrong with this forum section cannot be fixed by CCP. Nobody can. It's the therapy room for the crazy raging fringe of the Eve community. They vent, they whine, they are unstoppable. Oh and welcome to the 6th year of predicting Eves doom. ;-) You're in the fine company of people being false about Eves situation and impending downfall since almost day 1. There's nothing new - people have been whining and venting since the very first BS was built and for some reason they all tend to think that their pet peeves are universal in importance and acceptance and surely a sign of the final days of Eve. I'm looking forward to the 10th year of Eves impending doom. ;-) --- ISK BUYER = LOOSER EVE TV- Bring it back!
Mortok Tristan	Posted - 2008.08.28 11:47:00 - [36] Originally by: Evelgrivion Believe me, despite what the marketing department wants people to believe, things are not all well in Iceland. You have any proof of this ?
Scagga Laebetrovo Ammatar Free Corps	Posted - 2008.08.28 11:48:00 - [37] Edited by: Scagga Laebetrovo on 28/08/2008 11:48:45 I mean seriously, if CCP reverses its decisions because a single pilot whines about it on the forums, what are we coming to? Edit: And his cult following "I had a read of the General discussion section. Part of my empathy to my fellow man died."

CCP Zulupark	Posted - 2008.08.28 11:49:00 - [38] hi :) Just dropping by to see what's going on in this thread. Imo the trend the OP describes is perceived, not actual. Doesn't change the fact that perception can be as bad as reality. Anyway, reading this thread and looking at arguments for/against. Zulupark

LaVista Vista	Posted - 2008.08.28 11:52:00 - [39] Originally by: CCP Zulupark hi :) Just dropping by to see what's going on in this thread. Imo the trend the OP describes is perceived, not actual. Doesn't change the fact that perception can be as bad as reality. Anyway, reading this thread and looking at arguments for/against. Zulupark Ohhai. Whuts goin' on in here?
Evelgrivion Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.08.28 11:55:00 - [40] Originally by: CCP Zulupark hi :) Just dropping by to see what's going on in this thread. Imo the trend the OP describes is perceived, not actual. Doesn't change the fact that perception can be as bad as reality. Anyway, reading this thread and looking at arguments for/against. Zulupark Zulu: Are you referring to arguments for/against whether there's a problem? Just a bit confused on that regard.
Haraldhardrade Amarr Pax Amarr	Posted - 2008.08.28 11:56:00 - [41] Originally by: CCP Zulupark Doesn't change the fact that perception can be as bad as reality. What decides CCP's perception of the state of the game, the amount of subscribers? Seems a bit EA-ish to me. Caveo of Minmatar , torva vacuus regimen of deus es plurrimi periculosus of bestia
Sheriff Jones Amarr Clinical Experiment	Posted - 2008.08.28 11:57:00 - [42] Originally by: CCP Zulupark hi :) Just dropping by to see what's going on in this thread. Imo the trend the OP describes is perceived, not actual. Doesn't change the fact that perception can be as bad as reality. Anyway, reading this thread and looking at arguments for/against. Zulupark Threadpoint killer My opinions represent the opinions of my corporation completely. I'm the CEO damnit.

CCP Zulupark	Posted - 2008.08.28 11:58:00 - [43] Originally by: Evelgrivion Zulu: Are you referring to arguments for/against whether there's a problem? Just a bit confused on that regard. Haha, yeah I was a bit vague. I'm just looking at this thread and trying to get a pulse on what the general perception is (according to the forums only obviously) among players and what arguments they have for/against their opinion.

Malcanis Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.08.28 11:58:00 - [44] Originally by: CCP Zulupark hi :) Just dropping by to see what's going on in this thread. Imo the trend the OP describes is perceived, not actual. Doesn't change the fact that perception can be as bad as reality. Anyway, reading this thread and looking at arguments for/against. Zulupark Ah, so the relentless deprecation of non-consensual empire PvP, the greatly decreased frequency of dev-blogs and the near-disappearance of the devs from the fourms are all just in my imagination? That is a relief. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Schani Kratnorr x13	Posted - 2008.08.28 11:59:00 - [45] Originally by: Haraldhardrade Originally by: CCP Zulupark Doesn't change the fact that perception can be as bad as reality. What decides CCP's perception of the state of the game, the amount of subscribers? Seems a bit EA-ish to me. And I might add that this point of view usually means you never notice the collapse of your brand before it is too late.

CCP Zulupark	Posted - 2008.08.28 11:59:00 - [46] Originally by: Haraldhardrade Originally by: CCP Zulupark Doesn't change the fact that perception can be as bad as reality. What decides CCP's perception of the state of the game, the amount of subscribers? Seems a bit EA-ish to me. Design has always been made with the goal of "making something fun/cool/awesome", nothing more nothing less.

Glengrant TOHA Heavy Industries	Posted - 2008.08.28 11:59:00 - [47] Originally by: Haraldhardrade Damage nerf, warp to zero, reduced price of cloning, jump clones etc; the list is filled with 'features' created in order to stop people from being discoured to continue to play on after they loose their stuff. I'm so tired of people repeating the same BS again and again - without putting any thought in it. * Damage nerf I just checked - I can still deal damge. Quite a lot of it actually. No problem here. * warp to zero That replaced a zillion stupid BMs. Everybody who was serious had wt0-BMs for every route he needed. Meaning we already had WT0. So you mainly could get uninformed newbies - proud of that? And you still can find people being careless even with WT0. You want to catch somebody? Put in some honest effort and place a bubble - or scan the system and find them ratting or mining. Just sitting at a gate and shooting at people who didn't know better and had to crawl 15 km? That's what you whine about? Sounds downright carebearish to me. Also the introduction of bubbles meant that the 15 km distance was no longer needed to have fight zones. * reduced price of cloning The true price of getting pod-killed is loosing your implants. What's your problem here? * jump clones It's a compromise because there were so many whining threads about people saying jumping is such a drag. It also doesn't help you if you have to haul stuff. Get over it - not a problem. None of the above changes harmed the game or made it less harsh where it really counts. Quite the opposite. Get over it. --- ISK BUYER = LOOSER EVE TV- Bring it back!

CCP Zulupark	Posted - 2008.08.28 12:02:00 - [48] Originally by: Malcanis Ah, so the relentless deprecation of non-consensual empire PvP, the greatly decreased frequency of dev-blogs and the near-disappearance of the devs from the fourms are all just in my imagination? That is a relief. I don't see any "relentless deprecation of non-consensual empire PvP" anywhere. If anything we're moving closer now to how the game used to be a few years back, that is, closer to how it was always meant to be. Sure, there has been a decrease in dev blogs, but then again it's summer. That'll be stepped up in the near future. I'll have a blog out for example within the next few days. furthermore, forums.

Scagga Laebetrovo Ammatar Free Corps	Posted - 2008.08.28 12:03:00 - [49] Edited by: Scagga Laebetrovo on 28/08/2008 12:03:57 Wonder if there is a healthy serving of misanthropy at CCP HQ "I had a read of the General discussion section. Part of my empathy to my fellow man died."
Haraldhardrade Amarr Pax Amarr	Posted - 2008.08.28 12:07:00 - [50] Originally by: CCP Zulupark Design has always been made with the goal of "making something fun/cool/awesome", nothing more nothing less. Whats cool about nerfing? Thats pretty much all that CCP have done over the years to game mechanics. Caveo of Minmatar , torva vacuus regimen of deus es plurrimi periculosus of bestia
Sheriff Jones Amarr Clinical Experiment	Posted - 2008.08.28 12:08:00 - [51] and you people wonder why the CCP doesn't answer threads much? Anything and everything they do answer, gets ripped apart, eaten, spat or sh...ahem...put out and then reprocessed in the "will it blend" commercial. If you want CCP to interact with you, you need to act like civilized people. My opinions represent the opinions of my corporation completely. I'm the CEO damnit.
Evelgrivion Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.08.28 12:09:00 - [52] Originally by: CCP Zulupark Originally by: Malcanis Ah, so the relentless deprecation of non-consensual empire PvP, the greatly decreased frequency of dev-blogs and the near-disappearance of the devs from the fourms are all just in my imagination? That is a relief. I don't see any "relentless deprecation of non-consensual empire PvP" anywhere. If anything we're moving closer now to how the game used to be a few years back, that is, closer to how it was always meant to be. Sure, there has been a decrease in dev blogs, but then again it's summer. That'll be stepped up in the near future. I'll have a blog out for example within the next few days. furthermore, forums. What about the people who don't want to post devblogs because they don't want to get the crap thrown at them from the community? I don't think there's any reason to deny that the moderation of the forums could be kicked up a few dozen notches, if not purged outright, and started anew.
Haraldhardrade Amarr Pax Amarr	Posted - 2008.08.28 12:10:00 - [53] Originally by: Glengrant I'm so tired of people repeating the same BS again and again - without putting any thought in it. * Damage nerf I just checked - I can still deal damge. Quite a lot of it actually. No problem here. Damage mods stacks, greatly reduced damage. Do you know what you are talking about? Quote: * warp to zero That replaced a zillion stupid BMs. Everybody who was serious had wt0-BMs for every route he needed. Meaning we already had WT0. Not to and from all objects in space. Caveo of Minmatar , torva vacuus regimen of deus es plurrimi periculosus of bestia
ShardowRhino Caldari Legion 0f The Damned	Posted - 2008.08.28 12:12:00 - [54] Originally by: LaVista Vista Originally by: CCP Zulupark hi :) Just dropping by to see what's going on in this thread. Imo the trend the OP describes is perceived, not actual. Doesn't change the fact that perception can be as bad as reality. Anyway, reading this thread and looking at arguments for/against. Zulupark Ohhai. Whuts goin' on in here? OH SHIT, RUN its the FUZZ!!!
VicturusTeSaluto Metafarmers	Posted - 2008.08.28 12:13:00 - [55] Zulupark is actually reading/posting? Hey, would you kindly ask the devs responsible for the technical aspects of the game go to over to the windows help forum and read up on all the unresolved issues that are not being addressed even after mass bug reports/petitions? This is game breaking stuff here.
Vyktor Abyss IONSTAR Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2008.08.28 12:14:00 - [56] My wish list: 1. Giant Font users get beaten with Giant foam bat until they see how annoying it is. 2. Self appointed CCP protectors (emote Sherriff Jones existential thought) blaming the community for CCP's very poor communication recently get transformed into an amoeba and teleported into a CCP office water cooler to inevitably be unnoticed, drunk and eventuly shat out by some ignorant CCP Developer. 3. The silent majority of the Eve community to get fed up with the lack of dev blogs, finding out about the lack new interesting content via "hype/marketing" interviews on 3rd party websites, and to leave the game - somehow letting me know of the new cool game they're playing. 4. To find a new MMO with the same exciting future that Eve once had and be there at the beginning.
Dionisius Gallente Sincarnate Holding	Posted - 2008.08.28 12:16:00 - [57] Actually the OP is almost 100% right, CCP could invest in GMs for this place and actually redoing the forums wouldn't be such a bad ideia. And yes, Devs participating and actually helping out were they can WOULD BE APRECIATED! _____________________________________
Pan Crastus Anti-Metagaming League	Posted - 2008.08.28 12:17:00 - [58] Originally by: Glengrant * reduced price of cloning The true price of getting pod-killed is loosing your implants. What's your problem here? They might as well remove medical clones then (no SP lost when podded). I suspect that the original reason for having this thing is to make it hurt more when an older player gets killed, but as the cost is negligible now, it doesn't work. So the actual effect nowdays is that only people who forget to update or are trapped with their clone in a station without access to medical facilities are hit hard, which is kinda broken. How to PVP: 1. buy ISK with GTCs, 2. fit cloak, learn aggro mechanics, 3. buy second account for metagaming
Sheriff Jones Amarr Clinical Experiment	Posted - 2008.08.28 12:17:00 - [59] Edited by: Sheriff Jones on 28/08/2008 12:18:00 Originally by: Vyktor Abyss (emote Sherriff Jones existential thought) Now now, just because i keep things in perspective, doesn't mean i'm "protecting" CCP. People think it's all CCPs fault, i give the points accordingly on how the community is at fault too. It's only fair. If CCP came here kicking peolpe around, i'd tell them off the same way. See? You don't have to be an insulting person to discuss things. My opinions represent the opinions of my corporation completely. I'm the CEO damnit.
ShardowRhino Caldari Legion 0f The Damned	Posted - 2008.08.28 12:18:00 - [60] Originally by: Vyktor Abyss My wish list: 1. Giant Font users get beaten with Giant foam bat until they see how annoying it is. 2. Self appointed CCP protectors (emote Sherriff Jones existential thought) blaming the community for CCP's very poor communication recently get transformed into an amoeba and teleported into a CCP office water cooler to inevitably be unnoticed, drunk and eventuly shat out by some ignorant CCP Developer. 3. The silent majority of the Eve community to get fed up with the lack of dev blogs, finding out about the lack new interesting content via "hype/marketing" interviews on 3rd party websites, and to leave the game - somehow letting me know of the new cool game they're playing. 4. To find a new MMO with the same exciting future that Eve once had and be there at the beginning. I whole heartdly agree, therefore I feel compelled to help you cover the last point you forgot on your poast. 5.Give me your stuffz,all your tritanium are belong to me! Soo.....you know...surrender your stuff to me. Feel free to contract it, I know you can't wait to flee so I won't keep you in eve any longer then needed. Thanks, Sincereiously, Rhino
Niccolado Starwalker Shadow Templars	Posted - 2008.08.28 12:25:00 - [61] Edited by: Niccolado Starwalker on 28/08/2008 12:25:41 Originally by: CCP Zulupark [... stuff...] Zulupark, while you are around her, could you PLEAASSSEEE look into where oveur is at the moment! He seems to have disspeappeared and gone lost for this community. To be honest, his last real post on this forum was regarding a "thank you for attending FF 2007" note!! Originally by: Dianabolic Your tears are absolutely divine, like a fine fine wine, rolling down your cheeks until they flow down the river of LOL
Pan Crastus Anti-Metagaming League	Posted - 2008.08.28 12:25:00 - [62] It's quite humorous actually on behalf of CCP to resurrect CCP Zulupark and make him appear in this particular thread. How to PVP: 1. buy ISK with GTCs, 2. fit cloak, learn aggro mechanics, 3. buy second account for metagaming

CCP Zulupark	Posted - 2008.08.28 12:27:00 - [63] Originally by: VicturusTeSaluto Zulupark is actually reading/posting? Hey, would you kindly ask the devs responsible for the technical aspects of the game go to over to the windows help forum and read up on all the unresolved issues that are not being addressed even after mass bug reports/petitions? This is game breaking stuff here. I'll send it along to them. Maybe they're working on it already, don't know.


CCP Zulupark	Posted - 2008.08.28 12:30:00 - [64] Originally by: Pan Crastus It's quite humorous actually on behalf of CCP to resurrect CCP Zulupark and make him appear in this particular thread. The electric jolts to the brain were quite uncomfortable during my resurrection.

Cailais Amarr VITOC	Posted - 2008.08.28 12:33:00 - [65] I believe Developers should be given a far greater degree of freedom in how, when and what they post to the EVE forums. Although the argument that 'anything a Dev posts gets flamed, ranted or blown out of all recognition' is a true one currently we are facing an even worse prospect. Dev comments produce wild speculation - but the absence of Dev input creates even more: predominantly that CCP has degenerated into some souless Corporate creature eager only to devour our subs. The rarity of dev posts on the forums, and the comparative infrequent Dev Blogs mean that when these posts do happen every morsal is devoured, disected and picked at by the forum community. Its like throwing a scrap of meat to starving lions. So do the opposite - flood the forums, always under the disclaimer that nothings certain, nothing set in stone. Lets here from the Art Department (any cool costumes for ambulation?) Lets here from 'Dave in Marketing' about his day and the quality of CCPs coffee. Lets here from the game designers about some of the mad cap ideas theyre having, and then from the techies about why these brilliant ideas are just a liiiitle bit tricky to implement. Get Dr Eyo out and about in trade and industry, devs into F&Is, Crime and Punishment. A deluge of Dev'ness. C. Originally by: Tarminic Your continued whining is somewhat diminished by your continued willingness to give your money to CCP.
Deviana Sevidon Gallente Panta-Rhei United Front Alliance	Posted - 2008.08.28 12:45:00 - [66] I would like to see people who post with multiple exclamation marks, are being smacked hard by the moderators. Because as Terry Pratchett wrote years ago, that multiple exclamation marks are a sign of an insane mind. So it is in the best interest of CCP and the community, to give them the treatment they deserve.
fuze Chosen Path Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2008.08.28 12:47:00 - [67] Originally by: CCP Zulupark Maybe they're working on it already, don't know. Appreciated. And I guess most people also would appreciate it when these devs would mention once in a while on the forums or in blogs what they were working on.
Havohej The Defias Brotherhood	Posted - 2008.08.28 12:48:00 - [68] Edited by: Havohej on 28/08/2008 12:50:46 Originally by: CCP Zulupark Originally by: Malcanis Ah, so the relentless deprecation of non-consensual empire PvP, the greatly decreased frequency of dev-blogs and the near-disappearance of the devs from the fourms are all just in my imagination? That is a relief. I don't see any "relentless deprecation of non-consensual empire PvP" anywhere. I hope you're still watching - I fear I may be too late. Here is one series of examples of nerfing non-consensual empire PvP: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=780053&page=8#214 - CCP Mitnal replies to ivy wardec exploit thread in caod, promises GM response - this response never came, which is pretty shitty, in my opinion, especially given that an official response was promised. http://myeve.eve-online.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=577 - dev blog from CCP Fear on suicide ganking nerf - nerfing the suicide gank isn't a deprecation of non-consensual empire PvP? Seems like it to me, and others who have remarked on it. http://myeve.eve-online.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=2317&tid=1 - GM Grimmi says corp hopping to kill is an exploit, CCP still supports corp hopping to avoid wars. Note that the GMs still haven't responded to whether using a number of alt corps to drive up the price of wardec'ing yourself is an exploit or not (see above, the IVY issue). http://eve-search.com/thread/756225/page/1 - (evesearch link 'cause of GM Ocelot's correspondence in the OP, which got nerfed out) Mitnal says in post 13 that corp hopping isn't an exploit (Mitnal's post is the point of linking this thread, not to highlight the GM correspondence). These things may not be in perfect chronological order, but I think what I'm getting at is illustrated clearly: here we have people who want to avoid PvP abusing the wardec system and CCP lets it ride. Here we have people who want to PvP and abusing the system to get at targets who would otherwise just stay docked, and CCP says "EXPLOIT!!!!!1." Here we have people sacrificing their own ship and security status to hopefully make a profit that justifies the time they'll spend ratting to fix their sec status and CCP says "the sec status penalty needs to be more severe to discourage this practice." Yes, the exploit that was just declared by CCP Fear is a lame tactic and I'm glad it's banned - but the way I see it, corp-hopping to gank is no more an abuse or exploit of the game mechanic than corp-hopping to avoid getting ganked. But I already detailed my views in this thread, I won't go so deep into it here. I've never suicide ganked (well, there was that one time, but I was just screwing around in a Rupture, wondering how quickly CONCORD actually responds, doesn't count imo), my sec status is not highsec-friendly so I don't play the wardec game (yet)... Even so, I don't the picture these four links paint when put together. The reasons for feeling this way vary from player to player, but I'm sure that everyone who has posted negatively about the way CCP is handling things the last six months or so could point to 2 or 3 different examples as well, if they took the time to do so. I've been forum banned more than once, so I've been trying not to shit up the forum as much... thanks for putting yourself against the wall and saying "I'm watching this thread, give it your worst." I just hope that enough people post reasonably and you guys maybe consider easing back on your carebear support a little. EDIT: I could whine about the corp management interface, especially the votes and sanctionable actions windows, but I'm more worried about "Carebear Online" . Originally by: CCP Explorer You can still steal their stuff.
Davina Braben	Posted - 2008.08.28 12:51:00 - [69] Edited by: Davina Braben on 28/08/2008 12:55:14 What they probably need is a Community Rep and / or that dev diary software update. Possibly a list of issues and the fix status thereof. Did I see that around here somewhere or am I thinking of a different MMO forum? i.e. Quote: Issues: Jita security status reset to 0.1 STATUS FIXED IN NEXT PATCH Lag STATUS IN PROGRESS LINK TO DISCUSSION They've got their CSM for polling player opinion (if you don't like the people who're in that you probably should have voted or run) but seem to lack people who're here specifically to post on the forums (instead of people who are also developing the game). People do whine when the content is stale. I know this from other forums. In fact... when people whine = always. The downfall of this forum is guys who sound like they iron their underpants shrilly and incessantly complaining about everything.
Angel Lightbringer Caldari Dark Evolution Industries	Posted - 2008.08.28 13:01:00 - [70] Originally by: An Anarchyyt Much more important is why the Dev posts are disappearing. When 500 people jump on a Dev because of ANYTHING they post, that isn't going to make people want to post more. Before you can even think about asking them to post more, the community needs to rabble slightly less. THIS Some people needs a reality check, and keep it in check for a while. @ OP and anyone who agrees --Sending a company monthly payments DOES NOT MEAN YOU OWN THE COMPANY-- Stop whining, get back to playing. If things turn sour for you, too bad but good riddance. Stop the doomsaying, this is not for public forums to try to psychic the bosses and staff. We don't care if you know it all, if you think the WHOLE company is aiming at a brick wall. You ain't member of this company, you have no clue about what is happening between the walls. You're not helping, you're stiring even more shit, so let go. Yes, let it all go. You have no grip about things, so let go. I'm not tired of this game, I'm not tired of this company, but I'm growing fcking tired of this COMMUNITY, or whoever think they speak for us all, which has changed a damn lot in the 3 years I've been playing. I think, because like you I HAVE NO IDEA, but I think* the whole damn reason Devs don't post as much, the Patch Notes section ain't updated in a while, etc.. is THE COMMUNITY ITSELF. I really salute CCP's patience... And then I wonder how many of them left because how depressing this bunch of whining lolly-sucking kiddoes of a COMMUNITY we are. And then, just a fistful part of it, the vocal minority speaking for the silent majority. You're asking people dedicated at writing code, most of them probably hating being on a tribune, actual Trolls-alike, hiding in caves, to come in the public under the spotlights and not being depressed when they read the comments? ARE YOU EVEN THINKING* OF WHAT YOU'RE ASKING? They ain't PR people, they don't have a thick skin, they don't NEED to grow a thick skin for that matter -- they WRITE CODE! Let... go.... *About the troll-thing. This is not an insult, but a typical stereotype. I know, I am one. Thank you. -Angel
Jet Max Gallente Tyrell Corp INTERDICTION	Posted - 2008.08.28 13:03:00 - [71] Edited by: Jet Max on 28/08/2008 13:05:39 Originally by: Schani Kratnorr Originally by: Haraldhardrade Originally by: CCP Zulupark Doesn't change the fact that perception can be as bad as reality. What decides CCP's perception of the state of the game, the amount of subscribers? Seems a bit EA-ish to me. And I might add that this point of view usually means you never notice the collapse of your brand before it is too late. What Schani said. This is exactly what happens most of the time. And you watch, it will happen to CCP...
Roy Batty68 Caldari Immortal Dead	Posted - 2008.08.28 13:09:00 - [72] A couple things I've noticed recently: 1) The community has lost traction in regards to where CCP is going with the game in general. Things are said such as, "We have a set of design goals that are our baseline for all changes", but what exactly that is isn't explained. Because they aren't explained, people guess. And then we're left arguing over stupid things that no one can prove. If player X says, "CCP are totally caving to the carebears. Nonconsentual PVP is dead", it would be nice to reply to player X with a, "Please quit posting nonsense and go read this post by CCP DevABorC". Since we don't have much in the way of reassurance from CCP that player X is indeed a drama queen forum ho, other forum ninnys start to believe him. It then turns into this self feeding chicken little convention. Summary: We need something like a quarterly Where The Game is Going in General type of dev blog with with a dedicated secion on how CCP is planning to ensure Eve retains it dark, cut throat nature. Or, at the very least, a big shot dev to drop in to random threads dropping the hammer on the chicken littles. Something we can refer the never ending supply of doom casters and "nerf griefer" people to. Oveur used to do this. 2) When you make or propose drastic changes to the game... SILENCE IS NOT GOLDEN. The speed changes put on Sisi had aspects that were almost nonsensical. It would have been so much better if someone had dropped by the testers thread and said something like, "Sorry... got the mass wrong on minnie bs. Our bad" or, "Yeah, minnie bs had to have mass increased and given the agility of a dead cow because when you combined the wazijammer with the cugglelopper, the nano went supernova"... or whatever. However, not saying anything at all just leaves us guessing again. And quite frankly takes quite a bit of steam out of my "i want to go test for CCP" engines. Throw on top of that the utter lack of moderation on the testers thread, allowing it to become a 70+ page debate thread on, "NANO NERF - To be, or not to be!", and hence totally useless to anyone actually testing... Well, my volunteer to test care-o-meter pegged out at 0 with a quickness. Summary: If you want us to test proposed changes seriously, you need to be serious about it yourselves in regards to communicating with us. Not just leave us to it and see what we find. I'm sure you get some amount of data with the just leave us to it approach, but what you're really missing is potential user buy in and better understanding for just what the heck you're trying to achieve. I guess my analysis of the situation is simple. The current style of dev blogs aren't cutting it. They're good for an overview, but there is some depth missing in the overall communication front. Sig removed, inappropriate content. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Malcanis Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.08.28 13:21:00 - [73] Edited by: Malcanis on 28/08/2008 13:23:04 Originally by: CCP Zulupark Originally by: Malcanis Ah, so the relentless deprecation of non-consensual empire PvP, the greatly decreased frequency of dev-blogs and the near-disappearance of the devs from the fourms are all just in my imagination? That is a relief. I don't see any "relentless deprecation of non-consensual empire PvP" anywhere. If anything we're moving closer now to how the game used to be a few years back, that is, closer to how it was always meant to be. Sure, there has been a decrease in dev blogs, but then again it's summer. That'll be stepped up in the near future. I'll have a blog out for example within the next few days. furthermore, forums. Alliance 'P' CONCORD buff war dec rules changes (lofty) CCP Dev referring to war-decs as "pay to grief" system Increased sec-hits Can you point me to the last change or global decision made in favour of non-consensual empire PvP? CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Havohej The Defias Brotherhood	Posted - 2008.08.28 13:22:00 - [74] Originally by: Roy Batty68 Summary: We need something like a quarterly Where The Game is Going in General type of dev blog with with a dedicated secion on how CCP is planning to ensure Eve retains it dark, cut throat nature. Or, at the very least, a big shot dev to drop in to random threads dropping the hammer on the chicken littles. Something we can refer the never ending supply of doom casters and "nerf griefer" people to. Oveur used to do this. I also agree with some of the things Roy Batty68 says, but I'd like to remark on the quoted text. He says, a type of dev blog with a dedicated section on how CCP is planning to ensure EVE retains its dark, cut throat nature. I say, "or IF they plan to ensure EVE retains its dark, cut throat nature at all." Everything I said in my last post, where I highlight the wardec and suicide gank situations as an example of CCP catering to carebear whining, is based on the assumption that CCP does in fact mean to keep EVE cold, hard and cut-throat. If that is not the intention of CCP, then I would appreciate it if they just came out and said so. Not like Zulupark saying that there's no relentless deprecation of non-consensual PvP, but instead to say "it was great, but CCP and EVE have grown and we need to move away from that, now." I don't think this would lose them many subscriptions (if any) - it sure as hell wouldn't lose any of the newer ones and to be honest it probably wouldn't lose mine. It wouldn't be an 'EVE is dying' situation at all. Just an acknowledgement of a milestone reached and a public display of moving toward a kinder, gentler EVE. What it would do (in my opinion) would be to cut down on some of the frustration that many of us feel with the way things have been going. We have one 'stated objective' (partially evidenced by the dev quote in my sig) and a series of actions that seems to go totally against that stated objective. Is that the case? Is there a focused effort to create a kinder, gentler EVE Online? Originally by: CCP Explorer You can still steal their stuff.

CCP Zulupark	Posted - 2008.08.28 13:40:00 - [75] Originally by: Malcanis Edited by: Malcanis on 28/08/2008 13:23:04 Originally by: CCP Zulupark Originally by: Malcanis Ah, so the relentless deprecation of non-consensual empire PvP, the greatly decreased frequency of dev-blogs and the near-disappearance of the devs from the fourms are all just in my imagination? That is a relief. I don't see any "relentless deprecation of non-consensual empire PvP" anywhere. If anything we're moving closer now to how the game used to be a few years back, that is, closer to how it was always meant to be. Sure, there has been a decrease in dev blogs, but then again it's summer. That'll be stepped up in the near future. I'll have a blog out for example within the next few days. furthermore, forums. Alliance 'P' CONCORD buff war dec rules changes (lofty) CCP Dev referring to war-decs as "pay to grief" system Increased sec-hits Can you point me to the last change or global decision made in favour of non-consensual empire PvP? I think there's a world apart between baiting people into flagging themselves and actually putting in effort to "non-consensually" kill someone. The Concord buff isn't made to kill a specific gameplay option, it's done to level out the risk/reward ratio.

Glengrant TOHA Heavy Industries	Posted - 2008.08.28 13:53:00 - [76] Originally by: VicturusTeSaluto Zulupark is actually reading/posting? Hey, would you kindly ask the devs responsible for the technical aspects of the game go to over to the windows help forum and read up on all the unresolved issues that are not being addressed even after mass bug reports/petitions? This is game breaking stuff here. It's game breaking for the few affected and I empathize. But what you linked looks like problematic driver interaction and is hard to debug/fix and might very well be a problem in the driver that CCP cannot fix. --- ISK BUYER = LOOSER EVE TV- Bring it back!

CCP Prism X Gallente C C P	Posted - 2008.08.28 13:57:00 - [77] Edited by: CCP Prism X on 28/08/2008 13:57:26 Edited by: CCP Prism X on 28/08/2008 13:57:14 It's not really true that we're not posting because of marketing pressure, the topic being off our realm of expertise or fear of some good ol' Dev bashing. There are many more reasons, even RL ones. I for one have been very silent since my keyboard ran out of 'I's and 'S's and I've been too busy to run out an buy a refill. I, too, reserve the right to re-write some or all of Evelgrivions post for the purpose of pleasing my whim at any time. ~ Prism X EvE Database Developer Relocating your character to a cozy, secure container since 2006. Relocating your cozy, secure container to the EVE cemetery since 2008.

Alek Row Silent Step	Posted - 2008.08.28 14:01:00 - [78] Originally by: Sheriff Jones They don't answer less, they answer like normal MMO developers. I never saw EvE/CCP as a normal MMO/MMO developers, that's what kept me learning and playing this game... EvE is different. Maybe I'm eluding myself thinking this way, maybe EvE will go mainstream like all others MMOs becoming only another one on the vast number of normal MMOs currently available. I really hope they don't lose their identity (what makes EvE unique) on the process. Then we have the lack of Dev responses on a certain mass/agility/speed/webs/scrams/tracking discussion thread, changes that will go into Tranquility soon for what I understood, changes that are not even in Sisi, only in Multiplicity but without patch notes. Where are the updated patch notes, please don't send us to July patch notes when Sisi and Multi were already updated a gazillion times. I really like when you guys post dev blogs so we can discuss/flame future changes, it's great to have access to the DEVs server to inspect the future changes, but all that gizmos mean nothing when the discussions are only one way and we don't have updated patch notes to the servers in question. Yeah, yeah, maybe I'm overreacting... maybe not. It's August. Let's wait for September.
Esmenet Gallente	Posted - 2008.08.28 14:05:00 - [79] Edited by: Esmenet on 28/08/2008 14:05:44 Originally by: CCP Zulupark Originally by: Malcanis Edited by: Malcanis on 28/08/2008 13:23:04 Originally by: CCP Zulupark Originally by: Malcanis Ah, so the relentless deprecation of non-consensual empire PvP, the greatly decreased frequency of dev-blogs and the near-disappearance of the devs from the fourms are all just in my imagination? That is a relief. I don't see any "relentless deprecation of non-consensual empire PvP" anywhere. If anything we're moving closer now to how the game used to be a few years back, that is, closer to how it was always meant to be. Sure, there has been a decrease in dev blogs, but then again it's summer. That'll be stepped up in the near future. I'll have a blog out for example within the next few days. furthermore, forums. Alliance 'P' CONCORD buff war dec rules changes (lofty) CCP Dev referring to war-decs as "pay to grief" system Increased sec-hits Can you point me to the last change or global decision made in favour of non-consensual empire PvP? I think there's a world apart between baiting people into flagging themselves and actually putting in effort to "non-consensually" kill someone. The Concord buff isn't made to kill a specific gameplay option, it's done to level out the risk/reward ratio. Of the things malcanis mentioned only one can be described as baiting (lofty's). I'd say calling wardecs a "pay to grief" system points to a significant change in attitude from ccp towards non-consensual pvp. Oh and you might want to recheck your risk/reward ratios as currently high sec offers top rewards without any risk. Vote against the nano nerf!

CCP Zulupark	Posted - 2008.08.28 14:05:00 - [80] Originally by: Alek Row Originally by: Sheriff Jones They don't answer less, they answer like normal MMO developers. I never saw EvE/CCP as a normal MMO/MMO developers, that's what kept me learning and playing this game... EvE is different. Maybe I'm eluding myself thinking this way, maybe EvE will go mainstream like all others MMOs becoming only another one on the vast number of normal MMOs currently available. I really hope they don't lose their identity (what makes EvE unique) on the process. Then we have the lack of Dev responses on a certain mass/agility/speed/webs/scrams/tracking discussion thread, changes that will go into Tranquility soon for what I understood, changes that are not even in Sisi, only in Multiplicity but without patch notes. Where are the updated patch notes, please don't send us to July patch notes when Sisi and Multi were already updated a gazillion times. I really like when you guys post dev blogs so we can discuss/flame future changes, it's great to have access to the DEVs server to inspect the future changes, but all that gizmos mean nothing when the discussions are only one way and we don't have updated patch notes to the servers in question. Yeah, yeah, maybe I'm overreacting... maybe not. It's August. Let's wait for September. To clarify the speed stuff a bit: Some changes to the nano-speed mechanic are still very much planned. However they were far too big to get into our 1.1 release on time and we wanted more public testing on it. So we removed it from the upcoming patch, put it into public testing on multiplicity stand-alone to give us more power over tweaking and changing it around. The more it's tested and tried the better it will be in its final incarnation.

Hegbard	Posted - 2008.08.28 14:10:00 - [81] Originally by: CCP Prism X I for one have been very silent since my keyboard ran out of 'I's and 'S's and I've been too busy to run out an buy a refill. You type "INSERT" too much. Try "DELETE FROM" or "TRUNCATE TABLE" instead. That makes the databases much happier and you won't run out of of 'I's and 'S'es.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2008.08.28 14:15:00 - [82] It's great to see devs in a thread again. It'd be great if the devs would post their thoughts/intentions/what they are working on like normal forumgoers. Even if they say something which turns out to be incorrect, what's the worst that can happen? Shitstorming over a non-issue? I.e., business as usual? Getting devs back on the forum in force would be the awesomest thing they've done in a long time. - DesuSigs
DigitalCommunist Obsidian Core	Posted - 2008.08.28 14:21:00 - [83] The only thing that makes this community a community, is that we're all affected by changes to the game. General discussions are almost always balance related because of that. Which is fine, but things get **** when devs stay out of discussions. You get no feedback on what is good and what is bad, so the bad ideas are constantly repeated through inertia, and the good ideas get buried, or are turned into bad ideas by repetition alone. CCP has 300+ employees, but they don't allow them to share their personal opinions. They've made it taboo in the same way an alliance doesn't want its members talking on CAOD. General is just that.. CAOD for player-dev interactions. It doesn't help that the CCP appointed community leaders don't seem to have any interest in what happens ingame. The dev blogs also have a poor filler:info ratio because they prune too hard for anything that might change in the future just to avoid drama. Its true that players take too much to heart when a dev speaks, but that was established through their own blobbing habits.
Gabriel Darkefyre Minmatar Crystal Ship	Posted - 2008.08.28 14:26:00 - [84] Originally by: Crumplecorn It's great to see devs in a thread again. It'd be great if the devs would post their thoughts/intentions/what they are working on like normal forumgoers. Even if they say something which turns out to be incorrect, what's the worst that can happen? Shitstorming over a non-issue? I.e., business as usual? Getting devs back on the forum in force would be the awesomest thing they've done in a long time. Definately agree with this, a CCP response in the right place could help avert some of the wilder speculations that get thrown around these forums. For Example, a CCP post in the Veldnaught Thread once the issue had come to their attention basically saying "We're aware that this is a concern and are currently looking into it. Official Response to follow." would likely have helped defuse a large amount of the ill feeling floating around that thread. Instead, the silence just fuelled the fire so by the time GM Grimmi's post hit, people on both sides of the arguement had already built up a large head of steam and continued on regardless.
Jastra Gallente Black Thorne Corporation	Posted - 2008.08.28 14:31:00 - [85] Originally by: Evelgrivion While these forums were created with the purpose of facilitating interaction between developers and players, the Eve Online forums can be best described as a festering cesspool. The moderation team currently employed by CCP is not up to the task. There are far too many people posting far too much stuff to expect any reasonable measure of control with only two active moderators. Swamped with work, the decay into an ever growing mess of memes, 'poasting' and trolling is ongoing. This has to change. At this point, I'm not entirely against nuking this place and starting over. Meanwhile, reintroducing volunteer based forum moderation deserves serious consideration. /signed, I have to agree that whilst these forums do have ups and down, lately they do indeed seem to have degraded markedly, I think the ban stick needs to be wielded a bit more heavily.
Haradgrim Tyrell Corp INTERDICTION	Posted - 2008.08.28 14:43:00 - [86] Originally by: CCP Zulupark Originally by: Alek Row Originally by: Sheriff Jones They don't answer less, they answer like normal MMO developers. I never saw EvE/CCP as a normal MMO/MMO developers, that's what kept me learning and playing this game... EvE is different. Maybe I'm eluding myself thinking this way, maybe EvE will go mainstream like all others MMOs becoming only another one on the vast number of normal MMOs currently available. I really hope they don't lose their identity (what makes EvE unique) on the process. Then we have the lack of Dev responses on a certain mass/agility/speed/webs/scrams/tracking discussion thread, changes that will go into Tranquility soon for what I understood, changes that are not even in Sisi, only in Multiplicity but without patch notes. Where are the updated patch notes, please don't send us to July patch notes when Sisi and Multi were already updated a gazillion times. I really like when you guys post dev blogs so we can discuss/flame future changes, it's great to have access to the DEVs server to inspect the future changes, but all that gizmos mean nothing when the discussions are only one way and we don't have updated patch notes to the servers in question. Yeah, yeah, maybe I'm overreacting... maybe not. It's August. Let's wait for September. To clarify the speed stuff a bit: Some changes to the nano-speed mechanic are still very much planned. However they were far too big to get into our 1.1 release on time and we wanted more public testing on it. So we removed it from the upcoming patch, put it into public testing on multiplicity stand-alone to give us more power over tweaking and changing it around. The more it's tested and tried the better it will be in its final incarnation. First: OMG, Zulu, is that really you? Second, what you just posted is exactly what we are asking for, small updates, let us know you haven't forgotten then things that we care about and the direction(-ish) you might be taking. When you retract the nano-nerf from the test server and go into media-blackout mode its going to concern the playerbase, especially the veteran playerbase. You guys (CCP) need to let it out, Zulu; you, Wrangler, Prism, the guys who have built up close to half a decade of trust with the playerbase are the ones we look to in order to have faith in CCP's vision of the future. When you guys go silent and a bunch of new devs post blogs about how they are about to ** on our toys, but they think we will end up agreeing it was a good thing, you can't expect people's response to be positive. Sometimes you nerf carriers and that will be met with less than pleasant responses, but once in a while, you add an align button, and for those times; we are eternally greatful. To the OP: Amen -- Originally by:** CCP Oveur ...every forum whine feels like a baby pony is getting killed
Shanur Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.08.28 14:46:00 - [87] Originally by: Gabriel Darkefyre For Example, a CCP post in the Veldnaught Thread once the issue had come to their attention basically saying "We're aware that this is a concern and are currently looking into it. Official Response to follow." would likely have helped defuse a large amount of the ill feeling floating around that thread. Instead, the silence just fuelled the fire so by the time GM Grimmi's post hit, people on both sides of the arguement had already built up a large head of steam and continued on regardless. Indeed. Also, The fact THAT a fairly heavy handed decission (We are going to move all assets that are not intended for high sec to low sec RIGHT NOW) could be made and implemented without the typical advance warning that you normally see if something drastic is done in terms of game development is something that struck a nerve too. Just because it is in game rule enforcement by your GM staff rather than game development doesn't mean that anything that affects a group shouldn't be given advanced warning before you are going to implement it. The move of capitals was clearly not communicated beforehand, but done, at least as perceived from the outside, in nothing more than a whim. Even if policies on something are unclear, you should pay SOME respect to the status quo and let people know when you intend to alter it.
An Anarchyyt Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.08.28 14:50:00 - [88] Originally by: CCP Prism X Edited by: CCP Prism X on 28/08/2008 13:57:26 Edited by: CCP Prism X on 28/08/2008 13:57:14 It's not really true that we're not posting because of marketing pressure, the topic being off our realm of expertise or fear of some good ol' Dev bashing. There are many more reasons, even RL ones. I for one have been very silent since my keyboard ran out of 'I's and 'S's and I've been too busy to run out an buy a refill. I, too, reserve the right to re-write some or all of Evelgrivions post for the purpose of pleasing my whim at any time. I already said that back on Page 1. :colbert: Back to the important issue. Since when has not knowing about something ever stopped you from talking about it more? HMMMMMMMMM? Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
Daelin Blackleaf Aliastra	Posted - 2008.08.28 14:51:00 - [89] The perception is that CCP is losing touch with it's community. While this may or may not be true there are a lot more staff these days and a lot less interaction. We have very little idea what CCP is up to at any given time, the dev blogs are nice but what happened to the old "in testing" and "in development" pages, even the "drawing board" hasn't been touched in ages. It wouldn't hurt to feed us a little info on what is being done around the office, what you need testing on SiSi (hunt the new content is not as fun as it sounds) and I'm sure we'd all love to see some concept art and hear your hopes and dreams now and then. On the forums: They're a poorly moderated mess and a lot of it isn't worth the time required to post there but when people are discussing ideas and/or issues in Game Development or Features and Ideas it would be nice if someone nipped in to mention that they agree that there is an issue here, or that they have related changes planned, or that this idea is impossible because of X, Y, and Z. A simple, "I'm sorry but we see no issue here because..." would be nice in certain places too. These two forums are full of people trying to help you improve the game and if anyone deserves a little time and direction it's them. The lack of interaction is giving many of us the feeling that CCP has fallen from grace and is heading down the dark path towards being just like all the other MMO developers out there. Those of us who have been around awhile know that you are so much more, but if you don't show it the old guard will lose faith and the new players will never know just how awesome CCP is in comparison to most developers out there. At least that's my perception of the general perception.
Larkonis Trassler Neo Spartans	Posted - 2008.08.28 15:03:00 - [90] Originally by: Evelgrivion We are a community of players, not an interactive bankroll. This. Good words Evelgrivion. Assumption of Risk
Jade Constantine	Posted - 2008.08.28 15:04:00 - [91] Originally by: Evelgrivion While these forums were created with the purpose of facilitating interaction between developers and players, the Eve Online forums can be best described as a festering cesspool. The moderation team currently employed by CCP is not up to the task. There are far too many people posting far too much stuff to expect any reasonable measure of control with only two active moderators. The forums are absolutely terrible, that much is certainly true. I think we have seen a steady decline in quality posting over the five years of the game but a sharp dip over the last couple of years in particular. The problem for Eve is as you say, the forums are the heart of the community really, and when the forums turn into an entirely negative/nasty/abrasive venue for meme-posting and abuse then it shows a dark face and lack of utility. I'm not convinced that a return to volunteer moderation is the way though - community moderation is a tough gig and you need to be committed and skilled and have your finger on the pulse of the community and thats pretty much a full time job not something you can expect gamers to do in their off hours. But something does need to be done and done soon to improve the quality and content of these forums because the current climate is certainly damaging the game. My own experience as a CSM delegate has been pretty eye-opening -> met with a huge deluge of flaming and trolling from day one thats now tapered off to being sporadically stalked by alt-posting FW whines desperately begging for non-consensual pvp to be nerfed so they can run their missions in peace. Sure, I've always been a contentious personality and yep, winning the CSM was always going to put one in the spotlight for forum attention - but still, the pure number and range of troll threads and posts hurled in my direction was a bit crazy. Any normal player would have quit and given up months ago, and I suspects its not going to convince many people they'd like the job when I've finished with it. I can definitely sympathize with the devs here. I've suggested (over on SHC actually) that whats needed is A) better forum software - since without additional functionality and a developer to code that any significant change is not happening. And B) - better integration of forum posting and in-game roles within corporations. I honestly think we need to make corporate CEO's and Alliance Executors more responsible for the actions of their members on the Eve forums. I think we should be looking in the future at temp posting bans for entire organizations if enough of their members continually break posting rules and are actively engaged in ruining the Eve forums for ordinary users. We need the ability to completely restrict npc/alt corp posting from the political forums (CAOD/summit/C&P perhaps) and rather than having an eve account automatically able to post there you probably need to ask the Eve community manager for permission and rights (so human factor can bar obvious alt posting corps too) and if your members keep posting rubbish you should lose those rights. And for future development I'd suggest that being able to post on Eve forums with your corp and alliance ticker should be a privilege that is granted to you in-game by your ceo/directors/exec with in-game roles not something you have by default. Thus organizations in-game can punish bad posters by removing their posting rights with role removal to protect the overall reputation and standard of the organizations. Thus you'd have parts of the forums where you can post without corp/alliance tickers (general/help/techlab/markets/ships/etc) and parts where you cannot post without accountable corp/alliance affiliation. And posting with a corp / alliance ticker shows you are a trusted and responsible member of your corp/alliance and if you get warnings with those tickers shown the whole corp/alliance can be collectively sanctioned with temp bans. Star Fraction \| Dare to Dream!

Chribba Otherworld Enterprises Otherworld Empire	Posted - 2008.08.28 15:04:00 - [92] The more people join, the longer time takes it's bound to head this way I think. But I'd like to have 2006 back too, I miss the devs, but with the growing community I'm not sure it can be done right now. Secure 3rd party service ■ Veldspar

Scagga Laebetrovo Ammatar Free Corps	Posted - 2008.08.28 15:05:00 - [93] Edited by: Scagga Laebetrovo on 28/08/2008 15:05:10 Originally by: Chribba The more people join, the longer time takes it's bound to head this way I think. But I'd like to have 2006 back too, I miss the devs, but with the growing community I'm not sure it can be done right now. Bah. (regarding the forums) It is to be regretted that the rich and powerful too often bend the acts of government to their own selfish purposes. -- Andrew Jackson "I had a read of the General discussion section. Part of my empathy to my fellow man died."
Cygnus Zhada Amarr Reckless Corsairs	Posted - 2008.08.28 15:10:00 - [94] Edited by: Cygnus Zhada on 28/08/2008 15:12:06 There's a difference between proper moderation and "moar control!!!". There's a definate need for more moderation, wether due to having more moderators or more strict rules, or perhaps both. a "no bullshit" approach would work, combined with an increase of moderators, possibly by specific members of the community. But, obviously, not by election. We all know how that ended. - edit for content - They can't simply change the forum software because it's an integral part of the portal and game itself, even more due to all kinds of security risks. Their lack of ability to have made any changes in the past to me prove that they are unable to do so, wether due to code problems and/or expertise. As I stated earlier; all they can do is patchwork, kick the server, do some raindances and hope the fekker keeps working.
goodby4u Valor Inc.	Posted - 2008.08.28 15:10:00 - [95] For you that think the devs are atleast trying to post in thread but dont have the time, remember that fix amarr post that went to like 60 pages? It was around for about a month and no devs could even post in it? I dont think eve is dieing, but sadly its beginning to look like its changing to better suit wowits, and this isnt good. Eve is suppose to be a cold dark place where you can die anywhere, be scammed anywhere, and in order to survive, you must have thick skin and be smart... Not to mention a place where the devs hear you out and propose changes. I wont leave eve for a good long while, but personally it isnt looking like the future of eve is very good for the hardcore players like myself.
An Anarchyyt Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.08.28 15:10:00 - [96] Edited by: An Anarchyyt on 28/08/2008 15:11:03 Originally by: Chribba The more people join, the longer time takes it's bound to head this way I think. But I'd like to have 2006 back too, I miss the devs, but with the growing community I'm not sure it can be done right now. Well it doesn't matter much, because they all get swallowed up in Jade's dissertations. Originally by: Cygnus Zhada possibly by specific members of the community. For an "old player" and a self-proclaimed genius, you apparently don't know how poorly IC worked out. Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
VicturusTeSaluto Metafarmers	Posted - 2008.08.28 15:10:00 - [97] Originally by: Glengrant Originally by: VicturusTeSaluto Zulupark is actually reading/posting? Hey, would you kindly ask the devs responsible for the technical aspects of the game go to over to the windows help forum and read up on all the unresolved issues that are not being addressed even after mass bug reports/petitions? This is game breaking stuff here. It's game breaking for the few affected and I empathize. But what you linked looks like problematic driver interaction and is hard to debug/fix and might very well be a problem in the driver that CCP cannot fix. Eh? This is common sense stuff here. This issue has been around for 6+ months(at least). That is more than enough time for ccp to fix a "hard" problem. If for some reason they "cannot"(that's BS, btw) fix it, that is also more than enough time to inform their customers that they will never fix it. Also, there are not "few" affected. That is a very weird and puzzling thing for one to say. It is not as if no one uses ATI cards and no one ever bought a 38xx series card. This is a common piece of hardware.
Jade Constantine	Posted - 2008.08.28 15:10:00 - [98] Originally by: Chribba The more people join, the longer time takes it's bound to head this way I think. But I'd like to have 2006 back too, I miss the devs, but with the growing community I'm not sure it can be done right now. Course it can Chribba, just need the will, the money and the technical know-how but nothing is impossible. If the human race can turn salt into drinking water and deserts into cornfields and photograph postage stamps from orbit I'm pretty damn sure CCP can buy a working forum suite and hire a guy to code a better integration with in-game roles and bring a little collective responsibility and organizational pride to stem the tide of ignorant nihilism that is scumming up these forums recently. Star Fraction \| Dare to Dream!
Scagga Laebetrovo Ammatar Free Corps	Posted - 2008.08.28 15:13:00 - [99] Hold on a moment, aren't we forgetting that it took the devs 12 hours to respond to a player's forum request? I think that's amazing. "I had a read of the General discussion section. Part of my empathy to my fellow man died."
Cygnus Zhada Amarr Reckless Corsairs	Posted - 2008.08.28 15:13:00 - [100] Originally by: An Anarchyyt For an "old player" and a self-proclaimed genius, you apparently don't know how poorly IC worked out. I would happily have several members as moderators; think of Hardin, Winterblink, Verone. People like that.
goodby4u Valor Inc.	Posted - 2008.08.28 15:15:00 - [101] Originally by: Cygnus Zhada Originally by: An Anarchyyt For an "old player" and a self-proclaimed genius, you apparently don't know how poorly IC worked out. I would happily have several members as moderators; think of Hardin, Winterblink, Verone. People like that. Akita T chribba for moderator!
Jade Constantine	Posted - 2008.08.28 15:17:00 - [102] Originally by: Cygnus Zhada Originally by: An Anarchyyt For an "old player" and a self-proclaimed genius, you apparently don't know how poorly IC worked out. I would happily have several members as moderators; think of Hardin, Winterblink, Verone. People like that. Absolutely terrible idea. The answer is not in a return to volunteer moderation. Its in making the leaders of in-game corporations and organizations more accountable for the actions of their members. Star Fraction \| Dare to Dream!
Cygnus Zhada Amarr Reckless Corsairs	Posted - 2008.08.28 15:17:00 - [103] And those as well, no problems whatsoever. The problem (per usual) is giving power to people who WANT power.
Cygnus Zhada Amarr Reckless Corsairs	Posted - 2008.08.28 15:18:00 - [104] You're too much into concepts like "power", "control" and "leader" for my taste Jade, but that probably won't shock you.
Scagga Laebetrovo Ammatar Free Corps	Posted - 2008.08.28 15:22:00 - [105] Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: Cygnus Zhada Originally by: An Anarchyyt For an "old player" and a self-proclaimed genius, you apparently don't know how poorly IC worked out. I would happily have several members as moderators; think of Hardin, Winterblink, Verone. People like that. Absolutely terrible idea. The answer is not in a return to volunteer moderation. Its in making the leaders of in-game corporations and organizations more accountable for the actions of their members. How about ingame ISK fines for people who post crap, which can be charged from any character on the account if funds run dry? "I had a read of the General discussion section. Part of my empathy to my fellow man died."
LaVista Vista	Posted - 2008.08.28 15:22:00 - [106] Originally by: Jade Constantine Absolutely terrible idea. The answer is not in a return to volunteer moderation. Its in making the leaders of in-game corporations and organizations more accountable for the actions of their members. Why? It would seem like a horrible idea to me. I much better like the volunteer moderation(Which isn't too good of an idea either). Nobody should ever be accountable for someone else's actions. And no out of game rule should ever apply to an ingame entity. If it happened, the alt infestation would become even worse. Terrible idea. If anything, we should enforce that any given person can only post with 1 character on the forums. So we make people accountable for their forum behaviour ingame.
An Anarchyyt Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.08.28 15:23:00 - [107] Originally by: Cygnus Zhada And those as well, no problems whatsoever. The problem (per usual) is giving power to people who WANT power. I could quote the Hitchhikers Guide when it is talking about presidents and basically says that no one who wants to be president should ever in fact, be president. I think generally the CCP Mods are doing fine for the most part. (likely people who were IC members anyway) The problem is really that there are just so many posts made that require modding, and without a 24/7 time commitment, it's just not gonna be perfect. Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
Raffael Ramirez Caldari Mentally Unstable Enterprises	Posted - 2008.08.28 15:24:00 - [108] hate to burst your bubble , but your alliance is one of the reasons that rules had to be implicated. I agree that TomB and all the others were a glorious contribution to the game be it chatting in New Caldari local , the forum posts or just seeing them in local or passing you at a gate. But with power come rules , some were broken so stricter ones had to be enforced. The community is a shadow of what it once was but if you want to fix that perma ban everyone that doesn¦t play within the rules no exeptions. There has to be a limit to metagaming and forum trolling. Would mean less customers = won¦t happen.
Jade Constantine	Posted - 2008.08.28 15:26:00 - [109] Originally by: Cygnus Zhada You're too much into concepts like "power", "control" and "leader" for my taste Jade, but that probably won't shock you. Well, here's the thing - Eve has evolved into something like a collection of virtual nation-states, there are huge alliances in this game, we've just had an election (the CSM) designed to allow those powers representation to the developers and perhaps its time to realize that with representation comes accountability and collective responsibility. If a Chinese fighter bomber flips out and drops incendiary bombs on Japan the UN doesn't ban the guys flight license and arrest him personally and call it an end to the matter. It becomes a matter of national interest and collective political responsibility. The Alliances and large corps in eve are like Nations. If they are behaving like "rogue nations" then why is a collective response inappropriate. Sure, I'm the defacto "leader" of Jericho and Star Fraction. In that I'm the name on the founding and incorporation readouts. But people stay because of the way we run the alliance. I'd be very happy to have collective responsibility for forum posting because neither I nor my directors will put up with bad behaviour from our membership. We expect intelligent and mature forum posting and if people can't live with that they can find another corp/alliance environment that better suits them. And if it turns out that there is a corp/alliance out there where people post nothing but rubbish all the time why shouldn't Eve be spared that collectively by seeing members of that organization temp banned for the actions of its members? Star Fraction \| Dare to Dream!
Drunk Driver Gallente	Posted - 2008.08.28 15:27:00 - [110] If CCP listened to me then we'd all be in a world of shit. .
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2008.08.28 15:28:00 - [111] Originally by: Cygnus Zhada Originally by: An Anarchyyt For an "old player" and a self-proclaimed genius, you apparently don't know how poorly IC worked out. I would happily have several members as moderators; think of Hardin, Winterblink, Verone. People like that. I also wouldn't mind seeing some well known forum personalities being given some power. They're here all the time, post constructively all the time, isn't it logical that they would guide the forums in a good direction? Originally by: Jade Constantine Absolutely terrible idea. The answer is not in a return to volunteer moderation. Its in making the leaders of in-game corporations and organizations more accountable for the actions of their members. I'm sure some clever person will invent a way of hiding your true identity from others on the forum. And tying up the forums and the in-game outside CAOD makes no sense. And the immediate reaction would be that all corps would simply say 'no posting on the forum'. - DesuSigs
Glengrant TOHA Heavy Industries	Posted - 2008.08.28 15:28:00 - [112] Originally by: Pan Crastus Originally by: Glengrant * reduced price of cloning The true price of getting pod-killed is loosing your implants. What's your problem here? They might as well remove medical clones then (no SP lost when podded). I suspect that the original reason for having this thing is to make it hurt more when an older player gets killed, but as the cost is negligible now, it doesn't work. So the actual effect nowdays is that only people who forget to update or are trapped with their clone in a station without access to medical facilities are hit hard, which is kinda broken. And where exactly is the change here? The cost was always negligible. And it only ever affected people who got careless and forgot. The very first thing I do after getting killed is buy a new clone. I take care what station I use. I once got stranded in a station without medical in hostile territory. I negotiated an escort and free passage before leaving the station. --- ISK BUYER = LOOSER EVE TV- Bring it back!
Scorched Evil the united	Posted - 2008.08.28 15:32:00 - [113] I think people miss the good old days when eve was actually fun. When you could log in with a buddy and go tear some crap up, rather than have to deal with the nerf bats coming through and destroying small gang warfare. I'm pretty sure people miss the days when you could come on to the forums and actually have an intelligent conversation with someone, about a game you both loved and wanted to see succeed. CCP went way further than required to help the constant whiners. I think part of the problem was they made a major shift in how they dealt with the game, and people way to quickly. One of the companies we engineer for decided that things had to change. They went through and started firing people like crazy to improve their bottom line. Overhead was through the roof and profits were not what they expected. They continued to try to "shape up processes" by cleaning house, but what they didnÆt realize was they had to do this in a stubble way. They too, like CCP does, thought they had everything under control. The workforce essentially resigned under them and a 758 million dollar a year company is now falling into the cracks. I think what CCP should either do is admit that the older player base in the game is NOT who they want to keep happy, or admit that they've fouled up those players opinions of them and plan to meet us half way. The condition of the eve forums is a result, not a cause of the decay of new eden. Players come here to vent their frustrations because, as we all know, there's nowhere else to do so. Evelgrivion, if you've just noticed now that the forums are a complete shit-hole.... Big surprise. They've been consistently getting worse for the past 3 years and I can only assume that the cause of this is the game play changes that have been done in this time. A lot of people have been ****ed off for a long time, but they havenÆt figured out the only way to really reach CCP is to cancel their accounts in waves. Sorry guys, I dont really want to see the game hit rock bottom, but we're headed straight for it with the current subscription type. How the hell does anyone achive anything in this game in 7 months and then quit? The study done showing us the statistics of players was pretty eye opening. People are NOT loyal right now. With new games on the horizon such as Jumpgate Evolution I think itÆs very important for CCP to get back in touch with their roots and start making choices that benefit their loyal customers, rather than their bankroll. I bet the people over at codemasters are fully aware of the state of this community. You people should all go have a look at their forums, its positive and constructive with a close connection with the creators. Its what this game was like at the beginning. IÆm not trying to drive anyone over to this new game. But I have to wonder, as I tab over to see a new resignation letter for this company I contract for, how will competition from these new games influence CCPÆs choices in EVE. I have faith this game will go on, but I fear the choices that improve it will come a day too late. Regards. CYVOK > All you station jockies better get out their and start killing these idiots
Jim McGregor	Posted - 2008.08.28 15:34:00 - [114] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 28/08/2008 15:37:02 Originally by: CCP Prism X I for one have been very silent since my keyboard ran out of 'I's and 'S's and I've been too busy to run out an buy a refill. Yeah, fuel propelled keyboards are a ***. Its nice to see some dev posts in this thread. You guys shouldnt just post when someone makes false accusations though... throw in a post sometimes in a random thread for good measure. I saw Tuxford post in a thread a few days back, felt like 2006 again. --- Originally by:** Roguehalo Can you nano Titans?
Jade Constantine	Posted - 2008.08.28 15:34:00 - [115] Originally by: LaVista Vista Nobody should ever be accountable for someone else's actions. And no out of game rule should ever apply to an ingame entity. If it happened, the alt infestation would become even worse. Why do we have corporations and alliances at all? Wasn't the whole point of the CSM the evolution of eve into a virtual world with nations and power blocs coming together to debate the issues of the environment we share? Eve is about reputation. Corporation and alliance members ARE held accountable for the actions of their corp and alliance mates. The ticker and employment history and name already determine how many people will respond to you. We're talking here about solving problems with these forums and the current terrible plague of consequence-free trolling and flaming and nonsense meme posting. As for your problem with alt-infestation -> as I said in the big post, some forums shouldn't allow alt posting period. And if we got collective responsibility for forum behaviour under particular corp/alliances tickers you'd want to be careful as a corp/alliance leader who you gave those roles too. Just like how you are careful who you hire in the first place. My alliance is NRDS with very strict rules of engagement. If we hire the wrong people and they go off and shoot neutrals it costs us money to reimburse the victims and embarrasses us as an organization. Why shouldn't terrible forum posting also be a problem for the corp/alliance leadership? Star Fraction \| Dare to Dream!
Cygnus Zhada Amarr Reckless Corsairs	Posted - 2008.08.28 15:37:00 - [116] What you are saying is that you want someone else (outside CCP) to have control over my account and the options my account has. Do you actually know what you're asking for?
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2008.08.28 15:37:00 - [117] Originally by: Jade Constantine Just like how you are careful who you hire in the first place. My alliance is NRDS with very strict rules of engagement. If we hire the wrong people and they go off and shoot neutrals it costs us money to reimburse the victims and embarrasses us as an organization. Why shouldn't terrible forum posting also be a problem for the corp/alliance leadership? Because the forums are OOG. How you have a character in a game held responsible for shitposting in a thread talking about changing the rules of the universe the character inhabits?. Even the mildest application of RP goes nuts which faced with this. Among other reasons. - DesuSigs
An Anarchyyt Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.08.28 15:38:00 - [118] Originally by: Crumplecorn I also wouldn't mind seeing some well known forum personalities being given some power. They're here all the time, post constructively all the time, isn't it logical that they would guide the forums in a good direction? I know I'd abuse it. I know you'd abuse it. I'm sure Jade would abuse it. And you get the idea. Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
LaVista Vista	Posted - 2008.08.28 15:38:00 - [119] Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: LaVista Vista Nobody should ever be accountable for someone else's actions. And no out of game rule should ever apply to an ingame entity. If it happened, the alt infestation would become even worse. Why do we have corporations and alliances at all? Wasn't the whole point of the CSM the evolution of eve into a virtual world with nations and power blocs coming together to debate the issues of the environment we share? Eve is about reputation. Corporation and alliance members ARE held accountable for the actions of their corp and alliance mates. The ticker and employment history and name already determine how many people will respond to you. We're talking here about solving problems with these forums and the current terrible plague of consequence-free trolling and flaming and nonsense meme posting. As for your problem with alt-infestation -> as I said in the big post, some forums shouldn't allow alt posting period. And if we got collective responsibility for forum behaviour under particular corp/alliances tickers you'd want to be careful as a corp/alliance leader who you gave those roles too. Just like how you are careful who you hire in the first place. My alliance is NRDS with very strict rules of engagement. If we hire the wrong people and they go off and shoot neutrals it costs us money to reimburse the victims and embarrasses us as an organization. Why shouldn't terrible forum posting also be a problem for the corp/alliance leadership? Because you can't even hold someone accountable ingame. If you want to do anything, hold only the person who posts, accountable for what he posts. Anything else is too prone to abuse. EVE is a sandbox. You can't (despite how much I'd love it) hold someone accountable in the same way we can with the CSM because everybody knows our real name and stuff. Meta-gaming is a part of EVE and will always be. As such, by making it possible for a person to actually hold someone responsible for the persons actions, it can be abused big time.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2008.08.28 15:40:00 - [120] Originally by: An Anarchyyt Originally by: Crumplecorn I also wouldn't mind seeing some well known forum personalities being given some power. They're here all the time, post constructively all the time, isn't it logical that they would guide the forums in a good direction? I know I'd abuse it. I know you'd abuse it. I'm sure Jade would abuse it. And you get the idea. You me and Jade weren't in the suggested list, nor would we be in any suggested list. I didn't say any forum personality. Though I, in fact, wouldn't abuse it. :p - DesuSigs
Glengrant TOHA Heavy Industries	Posted - 2008.08.28 15:40:00 - [121] Originally by: Jade Constantine We need the ability to completely restrict npc/alt corp posting from the political forums (CAOD/summit/C&P perhaps) and rather than having an eve account automatically able to post there you probably need to ask the Eve community manager for permission and rights (so human factor can bar obvious alt posting corps too) and if your members keep posting rubbish you should lose those rights. Yeah - I wondered why this is moderated after the fact when all data that's needed to restrict alt posting is already there. Simply not allowing chars without corp ticker on CAOD (and similar RP restricted sections) would be a nice improvement even without extra human moderation for stupid alt corps. Would spare us the many "no alt posting allowed" comments too. Originally by: Jade Constantine Thus you'd have parts of the forums where you can post without corp/alliance tickers (general/help/techlab/markets/ships/etc) and parts where you cannot post without accountable corp/alliance affiliation. And posting with a corp / alliance ticker shows you are a trusted and responsible member of your corp/alliance and if you get warnings with those tickers shown the whole corp/alliance can be collectively sanctioned with temp bans. Interesting ideas. I already see the censorship threads - but other stuff is restricted by roles too and people will always have GD to post anything they want (just without corp/alliance info if not authorized by corp role). --- ISK BUYER = LOOSER EVE TV- Bring it back!
Jade Constantine	Posted - 2008.08.28 15:41:00 - [122] Originally by: Scagga Laebetrovo How about ingame ISK fines for people who post crap, which can be charged from any character on the account if funds run dry? Kinda makes sense. How about 5% of the current total funds on the account (or 10m isk minimum) And if you can't pay you are temp-banned from forums until you settle your bill? Virtual swear-box :) Star Fraction \| Dare to Dream!
Cailais Amarr VITOC	Posted - 2008.08.28 15:41:00 - [123] I personally think linking forum activity to 'in game' activity is a quagmire we dont want to be heading towards if we leave it to corps and alliances to police themselves. What would stop a malcontent in a corp or alliance posting tripe on the forums in order to inflict damage upon that corp or alliance? What might be a better solution would be to link character api data to the forums - so a player can only post on COA if that char is a Corp CEO for example. More broad discussion forums like GD are harder to enforce. But again Id go back to my earlier point - players are posting duff because they have very little else to discuss. I dont think it takes a genius to spot that decreased Dev posts on relevant topics has resulted in a poorer forum in terms of quality. Its the equivalent of the teacher leaving a class room - chaos and anarchy ensues. C. Originally by: Tarminic Your continued whining is somewhat diminished by your continued willingness to give your money to CCP.
Cygnus Zhada Amarr Reckless Corsairs	Posted - 2008.08.28 15:42:00 - [124] Originally by: An Anarchyyt Originally by: Crumplecorn I also wouldn't mind seeing some well known forum personalities being given some power. They're here all the time, post constructively all the time, isn't it logical that they would guide the forums in a good direction? I know I'd abuse it. I know you'd abuse it. I'm sure Jade would abuse it. And you get the idea. I wouldn't, at least I'd honestly try not to. Thing is ofcourse that it's already a cesspit due to CCP having player acounts and therefore ties within the community and thus personal views and preferences. But we had that discussion which hasn't lead anywhwre and forum 'powers' certainly aren't important enough to relive that. I would have full confidence in the above listed people to do a proper job without feeling the need to question their actions or motives (this excludes Jade ofcourse, but that's a given).
An Anarchyyt Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.08.28 15:43:00 - [125] Originally by: Crumplecorn You me and Jade weren't in the suggested list, nor would we be in any suggested list. I didn't say any forum personality. Though I, in fact, wouldn't abuse it. :p Okay, I am sure Hardin and Verone would abuse it, and Winterblink would try but instead his alliance would lose another Titan over it. Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2008.08.28 15:43:00 - [126] Originally by: Cailais I dont think it takes a genius to spot that decreased Dev posts on relevant topics has resulted in a poorer forum in terms of quality. Its the equivalent of the teacher leaving a class room - chaos and anarchy ensues. QFT - DesuSigs
Jade Constantine	Posted - 2008.08.28 15:45:00 - [127] Originally by: Cygnus Zhada What you are saying is that you want someone else (outside CCP) to have control over my account and the options my account has. Do you actually know what you're asking for? Yep, just like if you join Star Fraction I and the directors have control over your account. Control over things like : Can you set standings? Can you access hanger X? Can you accept applictions? Can you access the wallet? Can you shoot this guy or that guy? (though enforcement being after the effect) If you want full control over your account you make your own corp or rise to leadership in another one. Star Fraction \| Dare to Dream!
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2008.08.28 15:46:00 - [128] Originally by: An Anarchyyt Originally by: Crumplecorn You me and Jade weren't in the suggested list, nor would we be in any suggested list. I didn't say any forum personality. Though I, in fact, wouldn't abuse it. :p Okay, I am sure Hardin and Verone would abuse it, and Winterblink would try but instead his alliance would lose another Titan over it. What makes you so sure? There are a number of people whose only posts in GD tend to be infrequent and uncommonly level-headed. And anyway, if the forum is such a 'cesspool' as people suggest, it couldn't get any worse, and there might be some lulz to be had. - DesuSigs
Cygnus Zhada Amarr Reckless Corsairs	Posted - 2008.08.28 15:46:00 - [129] Edited by: Cygnus Zhada on 28/08/2008 15:46:52 The second you pay for my account is where you can get control over my account. (and thus get banned for it).
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2008.08.28 15:47:00 - [130] Originally by: Jade Constantine Can you set standings? Can you access hanger X? Can you accept applictions? Can you access the wallet? Can you shoot this guy or that guy? (though enforcement being after the effect) In fact everyone one of those in control over the character. Forums are an account feature. - DesuSigs
Jade Constantine	Posted - 2008.08.28 15:50:00 - [131] Originally by: Cailais I personally think linking forum activity to 'in game' activity is a quagmire we dont want to be heading towards if we leave it to corps and alliances to police themselves. What would stop a malcontent in a corp or alliance posting tripe on the forums in order to inflict damage upon that corp or alliance? The fact you don't give "posting with alliance/corp ticker" role out to every new member. (in much the same way as you don't give out vault access to every new recruit either!) Simply makes the corp/alliance leadership more accountable for assessing the personality and responsible attributes of the membership and offloads some of the burden from ccp moderation. Quote: What might be a better solution would be to link character api data to the forums - so a player can only post on COA if that char is a Corp CEO for example. I prefer the idea of doing it through roles tbh. Corp/Alliance "press officers" role - get to post on CAOD or whatnot. Quote: More broad discussion forums like GD are harder to enforce. But again Id go back to my earlier point - players are posting duff because they have very little else to discuss. I dont think it takes a genius to spot that decreased Dev posts on relevant topics has resulted in a poorer forum in terms of quality. Its the equivalent of the teacher leaving a class room - chaos and anarchy ensues. Thats a fair point. Threads like that 22 page monster with FW people moaning about being wardecced would be helped massively by Oveur posting something like - "hey guys eve is an open pvp game and there are no instances if you get wardecced - fight back!" Star Fraction \| Dare to Dream!
An Anarchyyt Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.08.28 15:52:00 - [132] Originally by: Crumplecorn What makes you so sure? There are a number of people whose only posts in GD tend to be infrequent and uncommonly level-headed. And anyway, if the forum is such a 'cesspool' as people suggest, it couldn't get any worse, and there might be some lulz to be had. I have seen the future. The only player-based moderations I would agree with is the kind where everyone can vote up/down threads. Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
Jade Constantine	Posted - 2008.08.28 15:53:00 - [133] Originally by: Crumplecorn Edited by: Crumplecorn on 28/08/2008 15:47:40 Originally by: Jade Constantine Can you set standings? Can you access hanger X? Can you accept applictions? Can you access the wallet? Can you shoot this guy or that guy? (though enforcement being after the effect) In fact every one of those is control over the character. Forums are an account feature. Yeah of course it is NOW. Hence I was suggesting a change to that and make forum posting (on certain forums) an in-game feature through integration with corp/alliance roles. Basically certain forum categories would only be accessible if you had corp/alliance ticker roles and those would be granted/removed by appropriate corp/alliance officers. Other forum categories (like general discussion) as now, you wouldn't need these roles to post there but if you had them you'd be respresenting your corp/alliance in posting. Star Fraction \| Dare to Dream!
Glengrant TOHA Heavy Industries	Posted - 2008.08.28 15:56:00 - [134] Originally by: LaVista Vista accountable ingame. If you want to do anything, hold only the person who posts, accountable for what he posts. Anything else is too prone to abuse. That's not true. If alliance A members attack alliances B members usually that results in B setting the whole A alliance red and sometimes putting some extra effort into killing some A members as retaliation. Same with corps. If corp A has members attacking corp B. Corp B might ask for reparation first from the pilots, then from As CEO. Finally B might declare war on A if negotiations didn't resolve the matter. Corps and alliances are held accountable ingame for their members conduct all the time. --- ISK BUYER = LOOSER EVE TV- Bring it back!
Jade Constantine	Posted - 2008.08.28 15:56:00 - [135] Originally by: Cygnus Zhada Edited by: Cygnus Zhada on 28/08/2008 15:46:52 The second you pay for my account is where you can get control over my account. (and thus get banned for it). Well Cygnus, any corp/alliance leader can control whether you get to display the ticker for any character for your account. You certainly do pay for the account but you don't pay for the privilege of joining a particular player entity. If membership of a player entity is pre-requisite for posting on certain forums then the point stands. Star Fraction \| Dare to Dream!
Jade Constantine	Posted - 2008.08.28 15:58:00 - [136] Originally by: Glengrant Originally by: LaVista Vista accountable ingame. If you want to do anything, hold only the person who posts, accountable for what he posts. Anything else is too prone to abuse. That's not true. If alliance A members attack alliances B members usually that results in B setting the whole A alliance red and sometimes putting some extra effort into killing some A members as retaliation. Same with corps. If corp A has members attacking corp B. Corp B might ask for reparation first from the pilots, then from As CEO. Finally B might declare war on A if negotiations didn't resolve the matter. Corps and alliances are held accountable ingame for their members conduct all the time. Very true. If SF members suddenly started being dock-monkeys or using lame login traps or scamming people in Jita or posting abuse in local then EVERYONE with the Star Fraction ticker would be impacted by that negative impact on our reputation. Thats eve. Star Fraction \| Dare to Dream!
Glengrant TOHA Heavy Industries	Posted - 2008.08.28 16:00:00 - [137] Originally by: Crumplecorn Forums are an account feature. Only partly true at best. All postings are done with the name of a selected character - not your account name or your real name. Also some sections are RP restricted. It's simply more efficient to keep un-affiliated alts from posting on CAOD then having to enforce that after the infringement all the time. --- Save the forum: Think before you post. ISK BUYER = LOOSER EVE TV- Bring it back!
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2008.08.28 16:01:00 - [138] Originally by: Jade Constantine Yeah of course it is NOW. Hence I was suggesting a change to that and make forum posting (on certain forums) an in-game feature through integration with corp/alliance roles. Basically certain forum categories would only be accessible if you had corp/alliance ticker roles and those would be granted/removed by appropriate corp/alliance officers. Other forum categories (like general discussion) as now, you wouldn't need these roles to post there but if you had them you'd be respresenting your corp/alliance in posting. No-one will want to hand over any form of account control. And it's unlikely CCP would want to either. - DesuSigs
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2008.08.28 16:03:00 - [139] Originally by: Glengrant Originally by: Crumplecorn Forums are an account feature. Only partly true at best. All postings are done with the name of a selected character - not your account name or your real name. Also some sections are RP restricted. It's simply more efficient to keep un-affiliated alts from posting on CAOD then having to enforce that after the infringement all the time. That is somewhat superficial. You log into the forums with your account. All the character selection does is change the name that pops up. And perhaps something could be done about the freedom to choose so easily there... - DesuSigs
Kazuma Saruwatari Caldari	Posted - 2008.08.28 16:04:00 - [140] waaaa CCP doesnt care anymore waaaa. Seriously, looked in the **ing mirror lately? Havent you had the time or the friking sense to look at where you are, and where you're coming from? You are a player, amongst 200k+ accounts, on a server that at most has 40k on at any time. You are part of a community that, for the past 3 years, has done nothing but whine, steal, grief, and kill their fellow player, and has brought it onto the forums, dressed in shiny clean words and "logical" posts that "carry no bias". You are part of the bigger problem in EVE, not the whistleblower that is meant to cause change. Change yourself before you go telling CCP, let alone other people, how to do their **ing jobs. /endrant. -
Glengrant TOHA Heavy Industries	Posted - 2008.08.28 16:09:00 - [141] Edited by: Glengrant on 28/08/2008 16:09:55 Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: Glengrant Originally by: Crumplecorn Forums are an account feature. Only partly true at best. All postings are done with the name of a selected character - not your account name or your real name. Also some sections are RP restricted. It's simply more efficient to keep un-affiliated alts from posting on CAOD then having to enforce that after the infringement all the time. That is somewhat superficial. You log into the forums with your account. All the character selection does is change the name that pops up. And perhaps something could be done about the freedom to choose so easily there... Very much not true. You think it doesn't matter if people read that Sir Molle is posting, or a goon or a member of an alliance that you're at war with? Of course it matters - therefore your character, your corp and alliance info are not superficial. And you should be free to post under any of your chars - just not where it's not allowed - like posting on CAOD without a corp name showing etc... And restricting forum posting rights - at least in some sections via corp roles is at least worth considering. --- Save the forum: Think before you post. ISK BUYER = LOOSER EVE TV- Bring it back!
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2008.08.28 16:13:00 - [142] Originally by: Glengrant Very much not true. You think it doesn't matter if people read that Sir Molle is posting, or a goon or a member of an alliance that you're at war with? Not in any forum worth reading. These superficialities mean more in the chest-beating forums I guess. - DesuSigs
An Anarchyyt Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.08.28 16:14:00 - [143] Originally by: Kazuma Saruwatari 40k on at any time. BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
5pinDizzy Amarr Umpteenth Podding	Posted - 2008.08.28 16:18:00 - [144] I don't want CCP to listen to the playerbase, if anything I want them to listen to the playerbase a bit less. The playerbase has crap ideas most the the time, the playerbase is a fickle short attention spanned bunch of complainers with half baked ideas at the best of times with their own warped ideas and their own bias towards themselves or their friends. If there's anything I've noticed a massive amount of through reading the forum threads for change over the years, it's the massive amount of self interest thickheadedness people are willing stubbornly stand firm on. People who trained nano ships never wanted them nerfed AT ALL. People who died by nano ships always want them nerfed into the floor. People who live in lowsec want it buffed. People who live in highsec don't want lowsec resource competition and stick their fingers in their ears shouting "LALALALALA, stop trying to get easy kills, pirates" etc... The most I ever want CCP doing is trying to gauge sort of feedback by trying the ascertain some sort of average point of view on the changes, but still taking it all with a pinch of salt, and overriding the player thought's if their better judgement says they should still go through with it, short of an all out forum mob with pitchforks and torches. They are the professionals after all and do come up with some pretty good ideas now and then.

CCP Atropos C C P	Posted - 2008.08.28 16:27:00 - [145] oh hi.

Jim McGregor	Posted - 2008.08.28 16:29:00 - [146] Originally by: CCP Atropos oh hi. It is true. Says nothing about posting on forums though. --- Originally by: Roguehalo Can you nano Titans?
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2008.08.28 16:33:00 - [147] Originally by: CCP Atropos oh hi. Given the increasing correlation between whines and nerfs recently, I wouldn't link to that on my CCP character. Correlation does not imply causation, I know, but still. Also, not really related to forums. :p - DesuSigs

CCP Atropos C C P	Posted - 2008.08.28 16:34:00 - [148]


CCP Zulupark	Posted - 2008.08.28 16:36:00 - [149] Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: CCP Atropos oh hi. Given the increasing correlation between whines and nerfs recently, I wouldn't link to that on my CCP character. Correlation does not imply causation, I know, but still. Also, not really related to forums. :p /nerf

Pan Crastus Anti-Metagaming League	Posted - 2008.08.28 16:36:00 - [150] Originally by: Kazuma Saruwatari waaaa CCP doesnt care anymore waaaa. Seriously, looked in the **ing mirror lately? Havent you had the time or the friking sense to look at where you are, and where you're coming from? You are a player, amongst 200k+ accounts, on a server that at most has 40k on at any time. You are part of a community that, for the past 3 years, has done nothing but whine, steal, grief, and kill their fellow player, and has brought it onto the forums, dressed in shiny clean words and "logical" posts that "carry no bias". You are part of the bigger problem in EVE, not the whistleblower that is meant to cause change. Change yourself before you go telling CCP, let alone other people, how to do their *ing jobs. /endrant. Indeed, it's all the customers' fault! They may be paying their fees and adhering to the EULA, but it's still their fault, including the way CCP doesn't fix the lag or bugs! I kinda missed the idiot fanboi posts in this thread, thanks. How to PVP: 1. buy ISK with GTCs, 2. fit cloak, learn aggro mechanics, 3. buy second account for metagaming*
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2008.08.28 16:42:00 - [151] Originally by: CCP Zulupark Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: CCP Atropos oh hi. Given the increasing correlation between whines and nerfs recently, I wouldn't link to that on my CCP character. Correlation does not imply causation, I know, but still. Also, not really related to forums. :p /nerf You guys are really going for it today. There may be hope for you yet. - DesuSigs
Sakura Nihil Stimulus	Posted - 2008.08.28 16:46:00 - [152] The GM and dev responses to community concerns the last day or two have been a step in the right direction, but just a step, and needs to be sustained. We need sufficient moderation, as many people have pointed out previously in the thread. Before, during the later period of CRC, there was too much imo, creating what was perceived at times as a stifling atmosphere not conducive to discussion. Now, its the opposite, where threads can be swarmed with alts much like CAOD (as evidenced in the nano-nerf thread in the Info Center). Either expand the paid moderation positions, or open it back up to volunteers. While there is inherent bias in the latter option, effective moderation that is biased at times than good but select moderation. At the same time, if we're going to get this place back on track, we need to crack down on the alts. Eliminate or seriously reduce their number of posts, and it makes it easier for the existing mod staff to deal with real player posts and threads, and gives forum discussions more respectability. Finally, with regards to the devs listening to the playerbase, I can understand that it must be a bit difficult from their point of view, with many competing sides saying "listen to me, not them!". Listen to us, but not all of us - does a post have sufficient reasoning and rationality behind it? Is its purpose to make the devs reconsider an impending nerf or to insult them for it? If the devs listened to all the alts out there as well as the pure emo-ragers, we'd be screwed ... So anyways, to wrap up. Moar communication, let us know you're alive and what's up, it helps us stay in the loop and see you as members of the community rather than the occasional dev that shows up to smite something. We shouldn't just see you when the NerfBat is about to strike - take a hint from Oveur, yea ? Football? Hell yes.
Gnulpie Minmatar Miner Tech	Posted - 2008.08.28 16:56:00 - [153] Edited by: Gnulpie on 28/08/2008 17:07:00 Originally by: CCP Zulupark hi :) Just dropping by to see what's going on in this thread. That is exactly what is missing in many threads. Individual devs saying 'hi' and their opinion, salted with a grain of humory, irony. Understandable that they do not want to do it in many crap posts on the forums. But then ... please be more strict on those moronic trolls on the forums. It is bad enough to have them in CAOD, but they are spreading now everywhere it seems. And that destroys the formus bit by bit. And example for the slowly detoriating the above said, that devs just past by, saying hi. And they can't even be blamed because of the quality of the average posts.
Jim McGregor	Posted - 2008.08.28 17:02:00 - [154] I dont like dev opinions, they are clearly overpowered. --- Originally by: Roguehalo Can you nano Titans?
Tiberius Maddox	Posted - 2008.08.28 17:02:00 - [155] Originally by: Evelgrivion While these forums were created with the purpose of facilitating interaction between developers and players, the Eve Online forums can be best described as a festering cesspool. The moderation team currently employed by CCP is not up to the task. There are far too many people posting far too much stuff to expect any reasonable measure of control with only two active moderators. Swamped with work, the decay into an ever growing mess of memes, 'poasting' and trolling is ongoing. This has to change. At this point, I'm not entirely against nuking this place and starting over. Meanwhile, reintroducing volunteer based forum moderation deserves serious consideration. Interesting comments, and I see where you are coming from. I manage a number of game forums with posts into the millions since about 2000, so I am intimately familiar with the process of administering and moderating forums. Over that time I have learned there is no such thing as a right way to moderate, although there are certainly wrong ways. And it isn't hard to see that this particular community would be difficult to moderate, even under the most favorable conditions. In the final analysis, a forum is a reflection of the community it serves, and it has to reflect the needs and desires of the community. It seems that EVE's sandbox approach to MMO design has attracted a community who desire the same freedom on the forums. For better or worse, I thing the EVE community as a whole wants the freedom that the EVE forums offer, even if that means there is a very high signal to noise ratio. But I absolutely understand that type of environment puts a lot of people off. But all is not lost! There are a number of very active and growing game forums dedicated to EVE on the web, and it's nice to know you have other options to interact with EVE players besides the official forums.
Chasse Impetus Gallente Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2008.08.28 17:05:00 - [156] Originally by: Kazuma Saruwatari waaaa CCP doesnt care anymore waaaa. Seriously, looked in the **ing mirror lately? Havent you had the time or the friking sense to look at where you are, and where you're coming from? You are a player, amongst 200k+ accounts, on a server that at most has 40k on at any time. You are part of a community that, for the past 3 years, has done nothing but whine, steal, grief, and kill their fellow player, and has brought it onto the forums, dressed in shiny clean words and "logical" posts that "carry no bias". You are part of the bigger problem in EVE, not the whistleblower that is meant to cause change. Change yourself before you go telling CCP, let alone other people, how to do their **ing jobs. /endrant. This. To put things in perspective, we are all subscribers to an entertainment CCP provides. This forum is a form of customer feedback, and we are forgetting our place in this whole arrangement. It's nice that CCP listens to what their customers want and take into consideration - there's plenty of evidence of this. But at the end of the day, what's at stake for us is being bored during our pass time, and for CCP, their livelihood - CCP should have the final word on game decisions. Let's not act like it's the other way around.
Synapse Archae Amarr Demonic Retribution Un-Natural Selection	Posted - 2008.08.28 17:26:00 - [157] Edited by: Synapse Archae on 28/08/2008 17:27:50 Honestly CCP's communication with the player base has sucked for the last few months, period. Having been here since the beginning, I have only felt quite so left out in the cold once before, in 2005. That period ended with a promise that there would be more dev blogs and mroe visibility on the forums. And there was until recently. 2-3 Dev blogs a month is terrible. The number of dev posts in the forum is terrible. It's been nice to see some attention out of this thread, but I'd love to see a higher profile from CCP employees on the forums. You can either post more, and tell people to take your posts with a grain of salt or you can post less, and tell people your posts are correct always. Please choose option number 1. People will get used to it and the whining will die down. I'd rather have more dev posts with public knowledge being that its all speculation until you see it in a dev blog, than not hearing from devs until they have a definitive answer. Originally by: CCP Garthagk While these forums may not give you everything that you want, they will usually let you post.
Threv Echandari Caldari K Directorate	Posted - 2008.08.28 17:29:00 - [158] In Ref to: Originally by: CCP ZuluPark To clarify the speed stuff a bit: Some changes to the nano-speed mechanic are still very much planned. However they were far too big to get into our 1.1 release on time and we wanted more public testing on it. So we removed it from the upcoming patch, put it into public testing on multiplicity stand-alone to give us more power over tweaking and changing it around. The more it's tested and tried the better it will be in its final incarnation. his one little Note in DEV Blog Right after the Changes were pulled would have gon a long way. This is what users mean by communication being too little to late. As for Jades Ideas...probably not goin to happen but they sound good to me (and I rarely agree with Jade). For those who complain about "My Rights My Account" they have CONTROL blah blah... Actually the control always rests with the player. Dont like the Corp or the Way youre CEO muzzles you when you shit-poast Quit and make your own corp of Shit poasters. (who will get banned for Shit-poasting--of course this will hurt BoB and Goons and the 1 man Alt poasting corps but they are the ones who are responsible for it in the first place. Oh the other way you have control... Stop shit-poasting and meme flinging.....(too much to ask of some know) As far as CCP Atropos link.. If its not obvious to some I'll spell it out, for all the sturm und drang and wringing of hands over proposed changes CCP has collected stats on what the majority of actual players do as opposed to waht they SAY they do here.. (mister Uber yaaring "carebears must die!" PvPer with the Mission running, Trade humping money maker alts I'm looking right at YOU and so is CCP apparently). So despite 60 pages of Thread about how Nanos aren't broken and their obvious counters.. Cold hard data shows something else.....(I don't care, I like ECM Boats so I always fling poo @ speed demons..) Keep the Posts coming Dev's just try to not to let the fires get too out of control... Perception is reality when it comes to PR.. ---------------------------------------- Happiness is a Wet Pod
Viper ShizzIe The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.08.28 17:36:00 - [159] Why does Zulupark have more posts in this thread than our "Community manager" has had in the entire month of August?
Beltantis Torrence	Posted - 2008.08.28 17:42:00 - [160] Edited by: Beltantis Torrence on 28/08/2008 17:45:50 Honestly, you'd be shocked at how effective a public, prioritized list of issues to address and fix is at making people happy. Its dead silence that makes people angry because they feel like CCP is either unaware of the issues or has no intention of fixing them. Something like : Priorities: 1) Fix lag. 2) Fix defender missiles. etc etc etc. Something as simple as that makes people happy. Its generally pointless to expect dev's to comment on running threads. I don't believe CCP should have to 'cave' to issues, or what have you but the reason why people keep bringing them up is there is an impression that CCP doesn't know about the problems or doesn't realize they impact people. Once the dev blog came out about fixing nano's how many nano whines have there been? Went from one whine per day to zero. Why? Because people felt it was redundant to mention how unbalanced nanos are because CCP was already aware of the issue and working to address it. Its honestly that simple.
Synapse Archae Amarr Demonic Retribution Un-Natural Selection	Posted - 2008.08.28 17:48:00 - [161] Originally by: Beltantis Torrence Edited by: Beltantis Torrence on 28/08/2008 17:45:50 Honestly, you'd be shocked at how effective a public, prioritized list of issues to address and fix is at making people happy. Its dead silence that makes people angry because they feel like CCP is either unaware of the issues or has no intention of fixing them. Something like : Priorities: 1) Fix lag. 2) Fix defender missiles. etc etc etc. Something as simple as that makes people happy. Its generally pointless to expect dev's to comment on running threads. I don't believe CCP should have to 'cave' to issues, or what have you but the reason why people keep bringing them up is there is an impression that CCP doesn't know about the problems or doesn't realize they impact people. Once the dev blog came out about fixing nano's how many nano whines have there been? Went from one whine per day to zero. Why? Because people felt it was redundant to mention how unbalanced nanos are because CCP was already aware of the issue and working to address it. Its honestly that simple. ' You know they could just update the in development and in testing pages more than once a year. Thats what they are for. Originally by: CCP Garthagk While these forums may not give you everything that you want, they will usually let you post.
Beltantis Torrence	Posted - 2008.08.28 17:54:00 - [162] Originally by: Synapse Archae You know they could just update the in development and in testing pages more than once a year. Thats what they are for. Yeah, so long as visibility is there. If I can't navigate to it from the main page or Eve login screen or somewhere highly visible then it doesn't address the problem - which again I'll emphasize is a disconnect in communication. Someone who updates the page every week or so with minor edits to keep it fresh and a prioritized list of what good stuff is coming. Doesn't need to be a full dev blog style article, just a bullet list. Its a very effective tool to put people at ease.
Malcanis Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.08.28 17:56:00 - [163] Originally by: CCP Zulupark Originally by: Malcanis Edited by: Malcanis on 28/08/2008 13:23:04 Originally by: CCP Zulupark Originally by: Malcanis Ah, so the relentless deprecation of non-consensual empire PvP, the greatly decreased frequency of dev-blogs and the near-disappearance of the devs from the fourms are all just in my imagination? That is a relief. I don't see any "relentless deprecation of non-consensual empire PvP" anywhere. If anything we're moving closer now to how the game used to be a few years back, that is, closer to how it was always meant to be. Sure, there has been a decrease in dev blogs, but then again it's summer. That'll be stepped up in the near future. I'll have a blog out for example within the next few days. furthermore, forums. Alliance 'P' CONCORD buff war dec rules changes (lofty) CCP Dev referring to war-decs as "pay to grief" system Increased sec-hits Can you point me to the last change or global decision made in favour of non-consensual empire PvP? I think there's a world apart between baiting people into flagging themselves and actually putting in effort to "non-consensually" kill someone. The Concord buff isn't made to kill a specific gameplay option, it's done to level out the risk/reward ratio. With respect, I disagree. Since when did tricking people into putting themselves into danger become something alien to EvE? that's the very essence of combat in this game. That's what non-consensual means. They don't WANT to fight, but because they were careless or foolish or hasty or too trusting they have to. I'm not trying to argue you into reversing the decision or anything, but please don't try and pretend that the decision wasn't one of a string of decisions that have reduced the scope of non-consensual PvP in hi-sec. And what of the "alliance P" nerf? You can't call that anything but a huge deprecation of hi-sec non-consensual combat with a straight face. I noticed you avoided the biggest issue: a CCP dev in an official blog calls war-decs "a pay to grief" system. With no gang trickery, with suicide ganking rendered largely uneconomic, with war-decs classed as griefing - what options exactly will remain viable in hi-sec? can-baiting miners? For how long? Again, by all means, you devs should guide and mold the game as you see fit. You're in charge. All your veterans ask of you is open, transparent communication about the direction we're going in. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Khandara Seraphim StarHunt Fallout Project	Posted - 2008.08.28 17:58:00 - [164] This thread makes me smile... This is all we want from you CCP Agree or disagree with us and our ranting, just let us know you care every now and then
Jimer Lins Gallente Federation Fleet	Posted - 2008.08.28 18:04:00 - [165] Originally by: Jastra Originally by: Evelgrivion While these forums were created with the purpose of facilitating interaction between developers and players, the Eve Online forums can be best described as a festering cesspool. The moderation team currently employed by CCP is not up to the task. There are far too many people posting far too much stuff to expect any reasonable measure of control with only two active moderators. Swamped with work, the decay into an ever growing mess of memes, 'poasting' and trolling is ongoing. This has to change. At this point, I'm not entirely against nuking this place and starting over. Meanwhile, reintroducing volunteer based forum moderation deserves serious consideration. /signed, I have to agree that whilst these forums do have ups and down, lately they do indeed seem to have degraded markedly, I think the ban stick needs to be wielded a bit more heavily. There is a bit of irony in that the moderation team used to be player volunteers. I think the forums were more hospitable then, not because the current mod team is incompetent (they're not) but because there just isn't enough of them. The player mod team weren't perfect but they were able to cover the forums 24/7 by dint of being around the world and you can't argue that they didn't love the game and the forums.
Epidemis	Posted - 2008.08.28 18:07:00 - [166] Originally by: Pan Crastus Originally by: Niccolado Starwalker Personally I think the changes came when the company grew larger and when they ended up having like 200-300 employees. I'd love to know what those people are actually doing. They're not fixing bugs or programming, that is for sure. My guess is that about 200 of them are 1st level support i.e. copy/pasting the "our logs show nothing" message into petition answers and handling harrassment petitions (that goes really fast). You mean they actually have 100 people to development? haha! I reckon 2-3 work in total works on the expansion.
Frug Zenithal Harvest	Posted - 2008.08.28 18:12:00 - [167] Woah, woah, woah... Someone at CCP just linked to something about human factors? Ok now I've seen everything. Seriously, hire someone who knows about human factors to look at your interface. Really. All of it. Regarding the OP: I don't agree with whining about how forums are terrible. Forums are forums. This is what they are. "Nuking" them and remaking them isn't going to change anything. Welcome to the internet. - - - - - - - - - Do not use dotted lines - - - - - - - If you think I'm awesome, say BOOO BOOO!! - Ductoris Neat look what I found - Kreul Hey, my marbles
Pr1ncess Alia Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2008.08.28 18:47:00 - [168] Edited by: Pr1ncess Alia on 28/08/2008 18:52:28 responding to the OP (not reading all 6 pages) yeah, it sucks. i wish we had the CCP of old. the new guys are trying, but even when they try you can tell they are restricted to what they can say. forum degeneration is a huge problem. we can attribute this to one problem (trolls/general forum shitting) there are 3 big elements that brought that to eve: #1 anonymity on the internet (makes it easy and fun to troll) #2 the ability to post with anything but your main character (god alts were a bad idea, water under the bridge) #3 BoB and goonswarm (yeah i went there). now don't look at me like that, let me explain... no really, when i started this game ppl of megacorps (there were no alliances) and even in the early days of alliances, ppl were somewhat careful about how they posted. the guy that brought me into the game told me in the first few days "hey, dont go posting crap on the forums. it makes your corp look bad and they will get ****ed)" players didn't want to make their group look bad. that soon shifted into ppl realizing that any publicity is good publicity. ppl like BoB would make taunting threads over and over and over again vs ASCN. this caught on and changed again... goonswarm came along (SA.com goons) as a sizable group and made it their goal to shit all over the forums. like i said, no they weren't alone, but they did it organized and as a goal. (funny, wonder why they got the reputation of targeting games to ruin them) so, many ppl were involved, its the community as a whole that made the problem. goonswarm weren't alone and they weren't first. but they are certainly the perfect poster boy. its elements of the community such as this that makes the forums such a difficult place to manage. so, want to blame the game direction on something, yeah blame ccp. want to blame communication and forum degeneration on something? well we can only blame ourselves for that one. the game isn't what it used to be because both the devs are different AND THE COMMUNITY ISN'T WHAT IT USED TO BE. it takes two to dance.
FireFoxx80 Caldari E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2008.08.28 19:01:00 - [169] What's wrong with Jade's suggestions? All the give is simple: accountability. I suspect that under Jade's plans, people could still happily post to non-IC forums (Out of Pod, Technical, etc). And in there, it would be up to improved moderating, to ensure that any IC posts didn't spill out into there. Equally, I'd look at the prospect of "show this accounts alts" option on the forums. You'd get a lot less alt whines then. What I do the rest of the time - Vote for a Jita bypass!
Naomi Halloran Industry Breakthrough	Posted - 2008.08.28 19:03:00 - [170] All I'm going to say is this: I'm used to Sony's Fist of Steel when it comes to forum moderation and dev response, I've been putting up with it in its current state since 2002 (and putting up with Sony in general since 1999). This is nothing new. But yes, a little more interaction would be nice. --- "Sarcasm is just another free service I offer. If something I said offends you... good, it was meant to."
Jimer Lins Gallente Federation Fleet	Posted - 2008.08.28 19:07:00 - [171] Originally by: FireFoxx80 What's wrong with Jade's suggestions? All the give is simple: accountability. I suspect that under Jade's plans, people could still happily post to non-IC forums (Out of Pod, Technical, etc). And in there, it would be up to improved moderating, to ensure that any IC posts didn't spill out into there. Equally, I'd look at the prospect of "show this accounts alts" option on the forums. You'd get a lot less alt whines then. Attaching in-game consequences to out-of-game actions is 1) unacceptable, and 2) impossible to implement fairly. You think the petition queue is long now? Wait until people start getting fined for making a joke that some mod didn't think was funny. It's never going to happen- and if in some lunatic world it did, most people would abandon the forums or simply use 3rd-party forums. If you think the community's bad now, just try implementing something as heavy-handed and silly as the idea of penalizing people for forum posts. There won't be anyone left to talk to here that's worth the time. It would, however, be about the single best way to ensure the utter destruction of any semblance of camraderie with the devs, while at the same time causing an epic forum brain-drain. It's not always beer and skittles, but if something like this were implemented, all you'd have left are shitposters who don't care.
Ponderous Thunderstroke Republic War Machine Industries	Posted - 2008.08.28 19:11:00 - [172] Originally by: Cygnus Zhada Originally by: Crumplecorn And there was me thinking the various different forums all had different purposes. The cornerstone of EVE is the community. So let's nuke it. Right. The incessant whining is the community. Most of it should be ignored. And as has been pointed out by others, it's a bigger operation than it used to be, it cannot be as transparent as it used to be. At the same time, the low signal to noise ratio gets tiresome. The fix to that is for CCP to start upgrading their forums, or invest in some new ones. They need to get far more robust with software, adding things like the ability to ignore posters, watch threads, sort threads and posts, etc...either they need to move to something like a modified-for-EVE version of phpBB, or bring in some coders to radically change/upgrade the forum software they have now. Because honestly, it's very barebones and needs a lot of buffing up. --- "PT, you are a complete and total jerk." Yes. Yes I am.
sg3s Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.08.28 19:25:00 - [173] Edited by: sg3s on 28/08/2008 19:24:59 Originally by: CCP Atropos oh hi. Oh hi :-/ Thats 2 threads, might be a few more arround. Originally by: Tarminic Because even when EVE sucks, it sucks less than every other MMO out there.
Ponderous Thunderstroke Republic War Machine Industries	Posted - 2008.08.28 19:37:00 - [174] Edited by: Ponderous Thunderstroke on 28/08/2008 19:37:57 Originally by: FireFoxx80 What's wrong with Jade's suggestions? All the give is simple: accountability. I suspect that under Jade's plans, people could still happily post to non-IC forums (Out of Pod, Technical, etc). And in there, it would be up to improved moderating, to ensure that any IC posts didn't spill out into there. Equally, I'd look at the prospect of "show this accounts alts" option on the forums. You'd get a lot less alt whines then. There is no such thing as accountability when a second account for forum ho'ing, account holder name John Doe, can be made as a trial account, no C/C number, and then kept up with GTC's. Tell me that doesn't happen now, as many, though I wouldn't guess at number or even suggest a majority (yet), players have not only an alt, but a second-account alt. Tell me I need an activity level to be allowed to post on the forums? Fine, alt account is a trader (because setting up buy/sell orders is oh so hard and takes oh so long). Tell me I need a corp? Sure, no problem, making a corp is easy and cheap. Tell me that my reputation will be ruined? Like that matters to a forum 'ho. Get two friends and enroll their second account traders, make sure everyone flips skills and checks orders once a day, and say bye-bye to the CAOD limitations, make your corp description say you're miners and industrialists and you salute the Gallente flag, there goes your 'alt-corp' designation. Accountability first requires that responsibility can be assigned without doubt, which you can never do the way the game is designed (especially the part about account registration/payment/upkeep). The only thing we can hope for is that CCP enhances, or replaces the forums with strong tools for each individual user to remove from his or her sight that which they believe to be polluting the joint. Period. --- "PT, you are a complete and total jerk." Yes. Yes I am.
Esu Nahalas The Night Corporation RONA Alliance	Posted - 2008.08.28 19:41:00 - [175] Edited by: Esu Nahalas on 28/08/2008 19:42:08 Originally by: An Anarchyyt If some Dev goes "I think this is what happens" or "this is what I'd like" no matter what it is and no matter who they are, people act like this is now some giant edict from CCP and that is what is going to happen. Frankly, if I was a Dev, I wouldn't talk to you people either. This. Many times, this. You forum members (and you know who you are) have no idea how juvenile you appear to an outside observer. I sent a friend, a potential player, here to the forums saying "it's a cool game, check it out." I was away from a computer that day and didn't know the latest drama mama whinefest had broken out. He laughed in my face the next time I met him.
HenkieBoy Enrave Ethereal Dawn	Posted - 2008.08.28 20:49:00 - [176] I think the lack on info what CCP is doing and is going to do is the biggest problem atm. Second will be the lack of communication on the 'why' of the changes. When the CSM went 'live' the community expected them to pickup where CCP stopped, communication with the community. Only it is impossible for the CSM to know everything what CCP is up to and why they are doing it and thus the CSM also failed in the eyes of the community. The community does not expect to do what they want but they want to be listened to. Posting 'Please don't stop posting we do listen' in a topic once in a while isn't enough. Also I like to point out that the community does not know what they want, but they are VERY good at pointing out flaws in the plans you make. The Black ops is a very good example (EVE tournament discussion with a dev about the black ops being flawed).
Locke DieDrake Human Information Virus	Posted - 2008.08.28 20:59:00 - [177] Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: Cygnus Zhada Originally by: An Anarchyyt For an "old player" and a self-proclaimed genius, you apparently don't know how poorly IC worked out. I would happily have several members as moderators; think of Hardin, Winterblink, Verone. People like that. Absolutely terrible idea. The answer is not in a return to volunteer moderation. Its in making the leaders of in-game corporations and organizations more accountable for the actions of their members. I can't decide if you are kidding or not. In all seriousness, I don't want to be responsible for the actions of my corp members. In fact, I disclaim all responsibility for them. They are all adults, and if you have issue with them, it's with them, not me or my corp. I'm just saying that as a CEO I don't want that responsibility. I assume if you are playing EVE, you are an adult, take some personal responsibility FFS. And if the players are going to have a real role in guiding the game, it should be from in game, and done by posing elections to the players. The forums should never be more than a waste of time, why? Because they are forums and their only purpose is to waste time. Any real communication should be happening elsewhere, preferably in game. ______________________________________________ Goon FC(08/12/06):"its a trap" "that thing is fully operational"
Franga NQX Innovations	Posted - 2008.08.28 21:09:00 - [178] Originally by: Death4free i support this as it does infact suck balls that ccp never talks to us on any real issues You're aware of the recent proposed nano-changes and how Nahz and a few others were fairly constant on the forums regarding these?
Franga NQX Innovations	Posted - 2008.08.28 21:10:00 - [179] Originally by: Viper **zIe Why does Zulupark have more posts in this thread than our "Community manager" has had in the entire month of August? Although, this is a very good point.
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2008.08.28 21:37:00 - [180] Originally by: Franga Originally by: Viper **zIe Why does Zulupark have more posts in this thread than our "Community manager" has had in the entire month of August? Although, this is a very good point. don't bring that up
Gabriel Darkefyre Minmatar Crystal Ship	Posted - 2008.08.28 21:40:00 - [181] Originally by: MotherMoon Originally by: Franga Originally by: Viper **zIe Why does Zulupark have more posts in this thread than our "Community manager" has had in the entire month of August? Although, this is a very good point. don't bring that up The Assistant Community Manager, CCP Taera, sadly passed away near the start of the Month. Unsure of why CCP Wrangler hasn't been posting much, he may be on Holiday, it is the Summer after all.
Havohej The Defias Brotherhood	Posted - 2008.08.28 21:53:00 - [182] Originally by: Gabriel Darkefyre ...a CCP response in the right place could help avert some of the wilder speculations that get thrown around these forums. For Example, a CCP post in the Veldnaught Thread once the issue had come to their attention basically saying "We're aware that this is a concern and are currently looking into it. Official Response to follow." would likely have helped defuse a large amount of the ill feeling floating around that thread... True, true. But this is only good if a response DOES follow, unlike with this example I posted on page 3 of this thread, where Mitnal promises an official GM response and that GM response has still never come, 3 months later. Originally by: CCP Explorer You can still steal their stuff.
Viper ShizzIe The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.08.28 22:02:00 - [183] Originally by: Gabriel Darkefyre Originally by: MotherMoon don't bring that up The Assistant Community Manager, CCP Taera, sadly passed away near the start of the Month. Unsure of why CCP Wrangler hasn't been posting much, he may be on Holiday, it is the Summer after all. I obviously wasn't talking about Taerat. Wrangler's semi-vacancy from the forums is troubling at best considering the title he currently holds.
Dr Slaughter Minmatar Rabies Inc.	Posted - 2008.08.28 22:08:00 - [184] Originally by: Evelgrivion Edited by: Evelgrivion on 28/08/2008 10:58:38 EVE Online is in a crisis. The policies put into place by CCP's PR and marketing departments, the complete uselessness of the Eve Online forums, and the developer's complete unwillingness to contribute to discussions are serving to destroy the community. Normally I would read your entire post but, this time, I stopped reading at Quote: developer's complete unwillingness to contribute to discussions because, for me, that's a complete load of bollox. CCP Lingorm has been fantastic in replying to all sorts of questions I and others have posted. Other dev's are likely fed-up with the never ending stream of abuse and whining. At best they read, discuss between themselves, and act. Rather than read, discuss, post on forums, 'debate' for 8-32+ pages. Some times when they act they screw up. They are human. If we, the players, kept our forum threads succinct, with well argued points, they might even read more than they do now. Nerf trolling. Troll, you get a 1 week ban, troll again, a 2 week ban, troll again, 4, 8, 16.. and not just from the forum. From the game too (I would have been banned a couple of times already for sure). As a dev, what would you do? Trawl through a never ending stream of threads that are difficult to read, full of trolls, or, I know... actually program. Frankly the only CCP people posting on here should be the forum mods, GMs, and product management. Anything else is a bonus. ~~~~ There is no parody in this thread. Honest.
Evelgrivion Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.08.28 22:31:00 - [185] Originally by: Dr Slaughter Originally by: Evelgrivion Edited by: Evelgrivion on 28/08/2008 10:58:38 EVE Online is in a crisis. The policies put into place by CCP's PR and marketing departments, the complete uselessness of the Eve Online forums, and the developer's complete unwillingness to contribute to discussions are serving to destroy the community. Normally I would read your entire post but, this time, I stopped reading at Quote: developer's complete unwillingness to contribute to discussions because, for me, that's a complete load of bollox. CCP Lingorm has been fantastic in replying to all sorts of questions I and others have posted. Other dev's are likely fed-up with the never ending stream of abuse and whining. At best they read, discuss between themselves, and act. Rather than read, discuss, post on forums, 'debate' for 8-32+ pages. Some times when they act they screw up. They are human. If we, the players, kept our forum threads succinct, with well argued points, they might even read more than they do now. Nerf trolling. Troll, you get a 1 week ban, troll again, a 2 week ban, troll again, 4, 8, 16.. and not just from the forum. From the game too (I would have been banned a couple of times already for sure). As a dev, what would you do? Trawl through a never ending stream of threads that are difficult to read, full of trolls, or, I know... actually program. Frankly the only CCP people posting on here should be the forum mods, GMs, and product management. Anything else is a bonus. If you had read the post, you'd actually have seen that a lot of the problem I was talking about is that the forums are full of idiots mouthing off, which is discouraging many developers from saying anything.

CCP Mitnal C C P	Posted - 2008.08.28 22:35:00 - [186] I'm only on page one so give me time to continue to read up but I know we're not discouraged from posting, it's positively part of the job description. Obviously it'd be fairly useless of me to post on something I don't know about but I pass on links, posts, threads etc to relevant developers so they can post on something. As for CAOD, it will not be the future of the forums, especially as we're cleaning it up, slowly but surely. If anyone has any suggestions or comments on how to go about it please mail [email protected]. We reply to all mails and petitions about the forums too, if we don't poke us again, that generally works. Mitnal Community Representative CCP Games, EVE Online Email / Netfang

Dr Slaughter Minmatar Rabies Inc.	Posted - 2008.08.28 22:40:00 - [187] Edited by: Dr Slaughter on 28/08/2008 22:42:17 Originally by: Evelgrivion If you had read -edit drs ALL the post, you'd actually have seen that a lot of the problem I was talking about is that the forums are full of idiots mouthing off, which is discouraging many developers from saying anything. dam. I get banned now for a week don't I? ps. read the rest of the post. A little dramatic but I largely agree with you. -edit: one of the reasons the forums tend to suxx0r is that posting is a free commodity. If I was only allowed to post once a week.. well.. it would focus my mind and posting. ~~~~ There is no parody in this thread. Honest.
Glengrant TOHA Heavy Industries	Posted - 2008.08.28 23:03:00 - [188] Originally by: Locke DieDrake I can't decide if you are kidding or not. Jade wasn't kidding. Originally by: Locke DieDrake In all seriousness, I don't want to be responsible for the actions of my corp members. In fact, I disclaim all responsibility for them. They are all adults, and if you have issue with them, it's with them, not me or my corp. I'm just saying that as a CEO I don't want that responsibility. I assume if you are playing EVE, you are an adult, take some personal responsibility FFS. Of course your members are personally responsible. And so are you for your corp and members too as a CEO. CEO means more than just having the power to make directors. If your corp members mess up (like ganking my corp/alliance mates) and I can't get them to clean up their act I'll come to you and tell you that your corp is going to be set to red - which depending on the situation could lead to a number of unwanted KB entries. Pretty much standard practice. --- Save the forum: Think before you post. ISK BUYER = LOOSER EVE TV- Bring it back!
Armoured C Gallente The Aztecs Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2008.08.28 23:05:00 - [189] this is what i was talking about in my post on the fist page.... CCP employees engaging with the community not just there for locking the common troll in there cage or putting the fire out on torches, good old chit chat thank you CCP(enter name here)
Wizzkidy	Posted - 2008.08.28 23:08:00 - [190] Well I have been here since early 2005, I have seen changes some good and some bad. I think what has really stopped me having much respect for CCP was the T20 incident. I also wonder what else went on internally that we just where never told. I also recent the fact the original team of Dev's seem to have moved off the game to do other things Oveur, Tuxford, Redundancy, Mephysto, TomB. Strange the Kireon just decided to up and leave without saying goodbye to the eve community which was rather strange too. I log on, I still pay I don't play like I use too. I see changes coming in the future, if these changes are good for EVE is hard to say.
Complete Tart Gallente	Posted - 2008.08.28 23:15:00 - [191] Originally by: Wizzkidy I log on, I still pay I don't play like I use too. Sounds like a few people I know. Time-based skilling is a real winner for CCP since a lot of people will 'leave' whilst still paying money to CCP hoping that Eve will someday get better.
Synapse Archae Amarr Demonic Retribution Un-Natural Selection	Posted - 2008.08.28 23:20:00 - [192] Originally by: Gabriel Darkefyre Originally by: MotherMoon Originally by: Franga Originally by: Viper **zIe Why does Zulupark have more posts in this thread than our "Community manager" has had in the entire month of August? Although, this is a very good point. don't bring that up The Assistant Community Manager, CCP Taera, sadly passed away near the start of the Month. Unsure of why CCP Wrangler hasn't been posting much, he may be on Holiday, it is the Summer after all. And the other 4 assistant community managers? I have yet to see a post from Applebabe or Weatherman. I'm lucky to know they even exist. Mitnal and Lingorm are the two best communicators CCP has right now. Originally by: CCP Garthagk While these forums may not give you everything that you want, they will usually let you post.
Havohej The Defias Brotherhood	Posted - 2008.08.28 23:37:00 - [193] Originally by: CCP Mitnal At the time it was not an exploit, I asked, policy was changed, players were notified by GM. MMOs are constantly changing affairs, highlighting areas where policy changed and expressing that as conclusive proof of a problem seems somewhat unfair. As I am not a GM (who decide the policy not developers) I cannot decide what is and what is not policy, I can however, pass on what the current policy is having asked the relevant team. As there is a GM communications team, I expect I will not have to and if I do I shall improve how I do so to avoid any misunderstandings. Fair enough. I wonder (and this is not intended as sarcastically as it will sound), is it in the scope of the moderators to poke or prod the GM staff into making a public ruling or clarification of rules, or asking for such that the mods themselves can post? In this specific example, at the time you made the post I linked, you say it was not an exploit. You asked, and as has been announced by GM Grimmi, policy has changed. Does that mean that it's also an exploit to corp-hop for the purpose of avoiding getting killed now, too? I think you misunderstood my intent, Mitnal... I wasn't trying to use the fact that EVE's policies changed at all as proof of some perceived problem. I was pointing out a screaming double standard that I don't think can be denied - it may not have been intentional on CCP's part, but it's pretty clear... if you do it to avoid PvP, it's not an exploit; if you do it to get PvP, it's an exploit. I think most people agree that it's lame either way, but why is one an exploit but the other isn't? I illustrated this double standard in direct response to Zulupark's assertion that CCP hasn't been changing the game to get rid of non-consensual PvP in empire space. I forget who it was, but some old politician a hundred years or so ago said something like, "It is the fault of our rhetoric that we cannot make one point without seeming to belie some other." I'm not trying to say EVE is dying. I'm not trying to say the devs are stupid, or even the GMs. I'm not really trying to say anything. Rather, I'm asking (as a couple of others have) for a clear "mission statement," a dev blog or news item or something from CCP saying "We have decided that we need to change the direction of the game to appeal to a wider audience." or "We remain firm in our commitment to providing a unique gaming atmosphere that is as cold and harsh as the space it takes place in; the strong survive." or "Something else altogether that will state once and for all what we (CCP) are actually 'going for' with our design choices." Some folks have suggested that, from a business standpoint, CCP has figured out that it HAS to dumb the game down to appeal to a wider audience, get more subs and make more money. If that's true, then I'm sure your new subs will love it and I'm just as sure that 90% of your old subs will be able to deal with it. At the end of the day, it's a good game and that's all that really matters so I hope you're not afraid of losing players. If we didn't love the game so much, we wouldn't get all :nerdrage: about it. If CCP IS still committed to the 'cold, harsh world' EVE started out as, then some sort of understanding of why there is this double standard leaning heavily in favor of the carebears would go a long way, I think. I know I don't speak for every player, but I know I'm not the only one who sees devs say "we're not caving to carebears or nerfing PvPers" and gets frustrated when they turn around and do exactly that while continuing to insist that they're not. Some things are game design (the suicide gank changes coming up, for example), some things are GM policy (the new 'exploit'). If "kinder, gentler EVE" is the direction we're heading in, tell us that! If it's NOT, then please tell us why every change or ruling in the last few months has made it look that way? Or maybe get the GM staff to tell us? Originally by: CCP Explorer You can still steal their stuff.
Aphoticus	Posted - 2008.08.28 23:40:00 - [194] I read this entire thing, and I have one suggestion. Do not post in a thread that even bears resemblence to a thread you do not want to see or read. It will cut the forum in half. I barely post, such is my belief in what I said above. With nearly 6.5 billion people in the world, what is one more opinnion? And do we really need to hear it ... again?
Synapse Archae Amarr Demonic Retribution Un-Natural Selection	Posted - 2008.08.28 23:47:00 - [195] Originally by: Aphoticus I read this entire thing, and I have one suggestion. Do not post in a thread that even bears resemblence to a thread you do not want to see or read. It will cut the forum in half. I barely post, such is my belief in what I said above. With nearly 6.5 billion people in the world, what is one more opinnion? And do we really need to hear it ... again? Even if people already have voiced your exact opinion, adding a post to the thread brings it back to the top by signifying that you are also interested in the same subject. Its not just the range of opinions available that would interest people, but how many people support each one. Originally by: CCP Garthagk While these forums may not give you everything that you want, they will usually let you post.

CCP Mitnal C C P	Posted - 2008.08.28 23:48:00 - [196] Fail quoting fail on trying to quote Havohej's post. I realised halfway through you weren't having a go at me but I will claim immense pre-emption from the fact it was earlier on this page If you look through the wall of text I posted earlier, we prod people daily through a variety of means and implements. There is a GM communications team that will post policy and whenever there is a question of policy we pass it on to them. The other main means is through a system of passing on forum links to the whole company, we pass on threads of interest which can mean anything from a good idea to an exploit to a request to something like this thread. Mitnal Community Representative CCP Games, EVE Online Email / Netfang

Havohej The Defias Brotherhood	Posted - 2008.08.28 23:50:00 - [197] Originally by: CCP Explorer You can still steal their stuff.
Synapse Archae Amarr Demonic Retribution Un-Natural Selection	Posted - 2008.08.29 00:02:00 - [198] Edited by: Synapse Archae on 29/08/2008 00:04:31 Mitnal, I really appreciate your level of involvement in this thread. I wish we saw that level or near that level of involvement from other developers in other threads. Specifically those working on UI improvements, Sov warfare changes, and speed changes would go a long way. Furthermore, to address the feeling that CCP is not communicating, you could solve it with the following three steps. 1. Try to post at minimum one dev blog a week. I know someone in CCP has something devblog worthy every week. Seek it out and get it posted. 6 a month would be more comfortable. and would fit what you've put out in the past. Some months had 20 dev blogs in the past. 2. Update the in development, in testing, and drawingboard pages here: http://myeve.eve-online.com/updates/indevelopment.asp Their entire purpose is to keep the playerbase up to date on what's being worked on, and they havent been updated since october 2007. That makes us feel completely out of the loop. If they were kept up to date we could refer a lot of the most annoying tinfoil hattery and speculation to those pages. 3. When devs ask for play testing and feedback, as Nozh did for the speed changes, make sure that a postmortem devblog gets posted that shows people at least "We think your feedback isnt relevant, and here's why". Do those 3 and you won't see more threads or unhappiness. Originally by: CCP Garthagk While these forums may not give you everything that you want, they will usually let you post.
Pardack Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.08.29 00:26:00 - [199] It's great to see so much quality interaction on the forums again. One thing that I keep checking on is the Fan Submissions section on the website. Would be nice to peruse and share some of the great screenshots that I know are out there - again :)
Finuval Amarr Ministry of War	Posted - 2008.08.29 00:28:00 - [200] As a former GM of another MMO that I won't bother mentioning, I know what it's like to deal with the whine fests and bashing. We used to have a senior GM watching over our shoulder most of the time anyway so that didn't leave much time for forum posting. The point is, just because there's a perceived lack of interaction that doesn't mean the Devs/GM's etc aren't reading through some posts.
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Umbra Synergy Final Retribution Alliance	Posted - 2008.08.29 00:33:00 - [201] Quote: OP Someone got blocked on msn I see /cheapshot Applebabe ate my signature :( but the fish hat forgives! Nemotology is the EvE religion of choice!
Daelin Blackleaf Aliastra	Posted - 2008.08.29 00:36:00 - [202] Originally by: Synapse Archae Furthermore, to address the feeling that CCP is not communicating, you could solve it with the following three steps. 1. Try to post at minimum one dev blog a week. I know someone in CCP has something devblog worthy every week. Seek it out and get it posted. 6 a month would be more comfortable. and would fit what you've put out in the past. Some months had 20 dev blogs in the past. 2. Update the in development, in testing, and drawingboard pages here: http://myeve.eve-online.com/updates/indevelopment.asp Their entire purpose is to keep the playerbase up to date on what's being worked on, and they havent been updated since october 2007. That makes us feel completely out of the loop. If they were kept up to date we could refer a lot of the most annoying tinfoil hattery and speculation to those pages. 3. When devs ask for play testing and feedback, as Nozh did for the speed changes, make sure that a postmortem devblog gets posted that shows people at least "We think your feedback isnt relevant, and here's why". Do those 3 and you won't see more threads or unhappiness. That's pretty much all that is required. Anything on top of that is a bonus but this would be enough to make us feel more informed.
Vaal Erit Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2008.08.29 01:04:00 - [203] Previous Dev attitude: This is what I am saying and if you don't like it then STFU and DIAF or just quit and play ponies online. Present Day Dev attitude: Oh, I can't post, what if someone doesn't like me or I say something wrong? Oh noes, I am emo. Players aren't happy, I must make them all happy, more fluffy pillow time is needed. WTT 'new' Devs for 'old' Oveur/Wrangler This is CCPs game, and we are merely players, CCP has every right to tell us to eat shit and lock posts/ban people if a player gets upset at the Devs. Devs should post and not care about the players feelings and mushy stuff. Devs not posting because of player repsonse is BULLSHIT. That's like saying you are ruining my self-esteem, how can someone else ruin your self-esteem, it is your self and as such it is your game CCP. It is forum PvP and CCP has the ultimate DD banstick of doom, why they would not post is completely up to them. -- http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html
Kelli Flay	Posted - 2008.08.29 01:29:00 - [204] I didn't even attempt to read this entire thread but I did read the OP and while he has some good points, there are some things he seems naive about. 1) First, it is time to stop living in the past. Just because the devs spoke to the community directly around the time of beta doesn't mean they have to continue to address every little whine that comes up today. 2) Even today, this game has more dev/player interaction than most MMOs on the market. When I played DAOC, the game didn't even have it's own forums and the game's devs took feedback from the players through "team leads." The responses the players got back were always stamped responses such as "under consideration" or " not necessary at this time." This would be after months of whining from the players on VN boards which served as the game's "forum." To sum up: Be glad for what you got here. 3) Restarting the forums will help how? It will just be more of the same. More or stricter moderation may help but I don't see how starting the forums over will be helpful to anyone. "The National Weather Bureau is forecasting a thunderstorm of failure."
Myra2007 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2008.08.29 01:46:00 - [205] Originally by: CCP RyanD Most EVE devs read these forums regularly. They are trained not to respond unless they actually are responsible for the topic, and they have something constructive AND finalized to say. Every time a dev speculates in public an angel loses its wings. So we ask them not to do that. :) Linkage So how much of a perception is it really? And if it is one - does that mean its unfounded? Personally i don't see eve dieing anytime soon. But that doesn't mean the things the op describes don't irritate me.
baron corrino Gallente Malevolent Emo Herders	Posted - 2008.08.29 02:43:00 - [206] Edited by: baron corrino on 29/08/2008 02:45:42 Fundamentally Eve has become a community full of pussies. Forums, who cares, It should have nothing to do with the forums, who cares if some nerd types an opus (irony?)... They should be ingame doing stuff, getting value from their subscription. PVE or PVP .. whatever rocks your boat imho. Just lets not forget that that this game is about 'non-consensual' pvp. I have played since just before castor, initally engaging in the beta before that and I recall the days when the dev's would engage with the community. It was good, But do I expect them to post on the forums now?.. Nope. Do I care if they do or don't..Nope!! What I do care about, is the torrid of shite People have incessantly posted on the forums over the last few years. I think it reached it's peak during the recent Bob v Goons ( no Im not blaming you guys, just setting a time frame..) I have seen this once great community turn into the biggest bunch of whinging maggots, screaming at the top of their lungs for this and that. The incessant trolling, poasting etc.. is so dull it makes trying to actually have your voice heard over the whineing impossiable. AND FOR THE RECORD, EFT IS A TOOL, IT GIVES YOU A GUESSTIMATE, TRY GETTING OUT AND LEARNING TO FLY THE DAMN SHIP.. IT'S A LOT MORE FUN! There are vets like me who continue to adapt or die to the ever changing policy/game mechanics of the game. But having spoke to a fair few players in my time, I'm beginning to accept that the only reason we vets stick around is in the hope that enough of you '7month' noobs will shoot your loads, wipe yourselves on the duvet and finish up. Then the size of the population drops since the premature ejaculaters have spent themselves. Then we can come back out get back to playing 'eve'.. and not the pseudo-bollox/meta game that has come about! Currently eve is suited to gamers on crack and meth. To the OP, you must realise any entity that gets past a certain size, becomes unweildy. CCP should get on with fixing the game, and not pandering to the masses that make up the community. Furthermore, if the community is the cornerstone of Eve..my reply to that is above regarding the crack and meth. Community in my experience usually requires a modi**of mutual respect and collaboration. Until the relationships between players is toned down to a respectful dialogue, I can't see CCP engaging. Volunteer moderators..nope bad idea as previously stated by others for those stated reasons. Do I think the forums should be linked to the ingame enviroment.. no way. I just think we all in the community need to STFU and grow a pair. Too much talky talky not enough pew pew. p.s. AND FFS, IF YOU GET ENGAGED BY A SMALL GANG OF 3 CRUISERS AND AN AF... DON'T HOTDROP/UNDOCK A FRIGGIN CAPITAL YOU ***!!!...FIGHT YOU C'@T !! p.p.s. We vets are waiting.. hurry up and finish up. x That is all
Frankinator Malevolent Emo Herders	Posted - 2008.08.29 03:28:00 - [207] Originally by: baron corrino pussies Quotin' dis!
Dantes Revenge Caldari	Posted - 2008.08.29 04:53:00 - [208] Unfortunately, this is the way of business. Small business, small community means lots of friendly banter and the staff and their customers can be on first name terms. You are more than just a customer, you are treated as what you really are; their employer in effect since your subs pay their wages. As the company grows and starts to diversify, a rift forms between customers and staff. Now they can afford to lose you and a few others without too much impact on their income, you are not so valued. This rift grows into a chasm and the company soon develops its own agenda with little or no interaction from the customers. Small-scale PR exercises (cough CSM cough) are developed to make customers believe that their opinion is still important but, on the whole, the company's agenda still continues while making negligable concessions to "prove" they are still listening. Ultimately, we have Novagen. A large company who grew from almost nothing into a games giant. This is a company who listens to nobody, doesn't answer emails from customers, ignores bug reports and leaves the community thinking it would be better off buying their games from someone else. Novagen died off in the early 1990's although the developers went on to create their own company called Novagen Software Team. I'd hate to see CCP become another Novagen but it's heading that way already. Bug reports with standard "we cannot reproduce that problem" responses when I can reproduce it on both of my PC's every time even though they both have different hardware. The other response is, "it is an intended game feature" when it is clearly something that needs to be addressed because it is causing problems for the players which is why they are reporting it as a bug. We really need to get back on the track of the original Eve, some of you may remember it. Eve was that game we used to play a few years back, the one where the developers listened to the ideas of the community and tried to work the ideas into the game. The one where developers used to talk to us and get input from us about their upcoming exapnsions. -- There's a simple difference between kinky and perverted. Kinky is using a feather to get her in the mood. Perverted is using the whole chicken.
Ruiryu Cosmic Castaways	Posted - 2008.08.29 06:22:00 - [209] Edited by: Ruiryu on 29/08/2008 06:24:26 Jade Constantine, What ever drugs your on can I please have them, because apparently your on something so good you can pull these pathetically horrible ideas out of a magic hat. Tell me this hat, is it blue, long, and pointy? Worn my a particular wizard by chance? I have no idea how you got to be the lead of the CSM but please never run again, stop posting your horrible ideas to the fact you think it will make eve better. Stop trying to make EVE a game you can actually excel in and just fade away. You are the whole reason I look at the CSM as a failure to this game currently. At this point I'm not sure whats a bigger fail the fact you are on the CSM and Lead Chair, or the people who voted for you. You CAN NOT PUNISH A WHOLE CORP OR A ALLIANCE FOR THE ACTIONS OF A SINGLE PERSON! "I honestly think we need to make corporate CEO's and Alliance Executors more responsible for the actions of their members on the Eve forums. I think we should be looking in the future at temp posting bans for entire organizations if enough of their members continually break posting rules and are actively engaged in ruining the Eve forums for ordinary users." -Jade Constantine 28/08/2008 If that was the case your whole alliance should be dead for the amount of crap posting you have managed to put on this forum, and you banned for life. This is an OPEN COMMUNITY forum, you CANNOT start restricting peoples access to areas of this forum just because they aren't a CEO. You want to know what will happen over night if you did that? You would see 30,000 new 1 man corps pop up. Serious question though for you, do you think about anything you post or the ideas you back up for this game? Like SERIOUSLY stop think, go have a coffee come back 30 or 40 minutes later and think about it from a different perspective? If you do. Please go find a job a stacking shelves for a living. If feels you spit out the first thing that comes to your mind that gives you that "OH DAMN! That's an aweseome idea feeling". And just post it with out fully exploring all sides of the issue and idea. If you want to restrict alt corps from posting I want to see all your ALTs Banned from posting in support of your own ideas. The sword can only strike one enemy at a time, but tactics can defeat ten thousand men at once.
Havohej The Defias Brotherhood	Posted - 2008.08.29 06:26:00 - [210] Let's not derail the thread into another "Jade Constantine sucks" thread, hm? Originally by: CCP Explorer You can still steal their stuff.
Ruiryu Cosmic Castaways	Posted - 2008.08.29 06:29:00 - [211] Sorry I couldn't help myself, I've held back for way to long and this one just made me pop. I couldn't even focus any longer at the issues because of the utter garbage Jade proposed on like the 4th page. The sword can only strike one enemy at a time, but tactics can defeat ten thousand men at once.
Deviana Sevidon Gallente Panta-Rhei United Front Alliance	Posted - 2008.08.29 06:29:00 - [212] Actually the idea to ban Alt Corps and Characters from posting is a very good idea. The Trolling and Flaming and the Nonsense-Posting of CAOD has already spread to to GD and other Subforums show also signs of a serious troll-infection. Something needs to be done for the Forums and fast and a simple reorganising of the Forum Structure will not help with the situation.
Pirc Balar	Posted - 2008.08.29 06:37:00 - [213] First off, approaching the first year mark in eve and I must say this forum is not nearly as bad as others I've stopped frequenting in a game I still play. Second, great discussion; which is sort of ironic concerning the community is dying and all :-P Third, in good sport... Originally by: CCP Atropos oh hi. Hello Finally, I think Jade's suggestions concerning connecting forum posting abilities to some extent to in game character privileges seems like a natural move. Am I totally off when it seems to me that many corps/alliances already ask for certain kinds of posting or abstaining from posting from their members already?
Roy Batty68 Caldari Immortal Dead	Posted - 2008.08.29 08:02:00 - [214] @ the people saying the forums shouldn't be tied to the game at all. If that's the case, why do so many people post with alts? Sig removed, inappropriate content. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Taradis Amarr The Imperial Assassins Ethereal Dawn	Posted - 2008.08.29 08:41:00 - [215] Originally by: Evelgrivion Edited by: Evelgrivion on 28/08/2008 10:58:38 EVE Online is in a crisis. The policies put into place by CCP's PR and marketing departments, the complete uselessness of the Eve Online forums, and the developer's complete unwillingness to contribute to discussions are serving to destroy the community. If things do not change, the company will not be far behind, and the universe of New Eden will ultimately die. With the goal of controlling public perception of CCP's corporate image, the marketing department and public relations groups have been doing much to damage communications between developers and players. Developers are strongly discouraged from contributing in any thread that does not pertain to their assigned roles. Gone are the days where the employees could talk about the cool shit that they were working on. Gone is the time when developer and community interaction helped generate some of those new ideas that drive the game forwards. Though the developers are allowed to contribute in some ways, policy continues to discourage it. Whenever a developer posts in the forums, they inevitably get **ed on from all directions. However, the developers are limited to shooting blanks. The Public Relations policy regarding the shit responses to serious efforts at community interaction is to "grow a thicker skin or don't post." Obviously, the vast majority of CCP's 300 odd employees choose not to say anything. Thanks a lot for that, Marketing. We really appreciate it. While these forums were created with the purpose of facilitating interaction between developers and players, the Eve Online forums can be best described as a festering cesspool. The moderation team currently employed by CCP is not up to the task. There are far too many people posting far too much stuff to expect any reasonable measure of control with only two active moderators. Swamped with work, the decay into an ever growing mess of memes, 'poasting' and trolling is ongoing. This has to change. At this point, I'm not entirely against nuking this place and starting over. Meanwhile, reintroducing volunteer based forum moderation deserves serious consideration. If nothing else, please remember this. THE CORNERSTONE OF EVE ONLINE IS THE COMMUNITY. If the forums can't be fixed, burn them and start over.** Eve Online was founded on people who like to play video games, creating the video games that they, as gamers, want to play. CCP needs to keep this firmly in mind going into the future. Otherwise, they risk losing the community that this game was built on, their identity as the game developer with the guts to do things differently than the other faceless companies out there, and ultimately, their very business itself. We are a community of players, not an interactive bankroll. Please turn things around before it's too late. I Reserve the right to re-write some or all of this post for the purpose of improvement at any time. We miss the old CCP who actually cared about the game and opinions of the player base please come back to us....
Jowen Datloran Caldari Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2008.08.29 08:49:00 - [216] Originally by: Ruiryu Sorry I couldn't help myself, I've held back for way to long and this one just made me pop. I couldn't even focus any longer at the issues because of the utter garbage Jade proposed on like the 4th page. So you just simple HAD to resort to personal insults? Jades ideas might be unorthodox but, if you could be bothered to read the argumentation in this post, have some valid arguments. Contrary there are also some good arguments to why they are bad ideas. The OP was about craptastic forum behavior and how recently the forums have become more and more a bother to read. And you are showing a prime example of what exactly type of behavior I would root out like the plague if I were a moderator on these boards: resorting to personal insults due to lack of ability of reasonable argumentation. Thanks for showing up and proving the point. ---------------- Mr. Science & Trade Institute
Pnandor	Posted - 2008.08.29 16:16:00 - [217] Edited by: Pnandor on 29/08/2008 16:17:55 Originally by: Evelgrivion Edited by: Evelgrivion on 28/08/2008 10:58:38 EVE Online is in a crisis. The policies put into place by CCP's PR and marketing departments, the complete uselessness of the Eve Online forums, and the developer's complete unwillingness to contribute to discussions are serving to destroy the community. If things do not change, the company will not be far behind, and the universe of New Eden will ultimately die. With the goal of controlling public perception of CCP's corporate image, the marketing department and public relations groups have been doing much to damage communications between developers and players. Developers are strongly discouraged from contributing in any thread that does not pertain to their assigned roles. Gone are the days where the employees could talk about the cool shit that they were working on. Gone is the time when developer and community interaction helped generate some of those new ideas that drive the game forwards. Though the developers are allowed to contribute in some ways, policy continues to discourage it. Whenever a developer posts in the forums, they inevitably get **ed on from all directions. However, the developers are limited to shooting blanks. The Public Relations policy regarding the shit responses to serious efforts at community interaction is to "grow a thicker skin or don't post." Obviously, the vast majority of CCP's 300 odd employees choose not to say anything. Thanks a lot for that, Marketing. We really appreciate it. While these forums were created with the purpose of facilitating interaction between developers and players, the Eve Online forums can be best described as a festering cesspool. The moderation team currently employed by CCP is not up to the task. There are far too many people posting far too much stuff to expect any reasonable measure of control with only two active moderators. Swamped with work, the decay into an ever growing mess of memes, 'poasting' and trolling is ongoing. This has to change. At this point, I'm not entirely against nuking this place and starting over. Meanwhile, reintroducing volunteer based forum moderation deserves serious consideration. If nothing else, please remember this. THE CORNERSTONE OF EVE ONLINE IS THE COMMUNITY. If the forums can't be fixed, burn them and start over.** Eve Online was founded on people who like to play video games, creating the video games that they, as gamers, want to play. CCP needs to keep this firmly in mind going into the future. Otherwise, they risk losing the community that this game was built on, their identity as the game developer with the guts to do things differently than the other faceless companies out there, and ultimately, their very business itself. We are a community of players, not an interactive bankroll. Please turn things around before it's too late. I Reserve the right to re-write some or all of this post for the purpose of improvement at any time. Eve forums are not single-handed about same problem with customers that does not follow the forums' rules. The question is how to behave on EVE forums. my proposal is on either rinse the forum from unnecessary topic and to adjust about moderator but unless it works so can also the developer to take in a new forum that has very better moderator systems that sheep the players to deal with itself better or not to dare miss queue to take itself there. and another proposal is to have two forums that below. 1. Beginner and veterans 2. Only Veterans Alone so has I difficult and to find fairly topic because of too many strikes in search
Riddick Valer	Posted - 2008.08.29 21:10:00 - [218] Repeat recipients of forum bans should have an in-game ban to that account. All skill training is stopped and they get a 2 week vacation from the game.

Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 :: [one page]

COPYRIGHT NOTICE
EVE Online, the EVE logo, EVE and all associated logos and designs are the intellectual property of CCP hf. All artwork, screenshots, characters, vehicles, storylines, world facts or other recognizable features of the intellectual property relating to these trademarks are likewise the intellectual property of CCP hf. EVE Online and the EVE logo are the registered trademarks of CCP hf. All rights are reserved worldwide. All other trademarks are the property of their respective owners. CCP hf. has granted permission to EVE-Search.com to use EVE Online and all associated logos and designs for promotional and information purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not in any way affiliated with, EVE-Search.com. CCP is in no way responsible for the content on or functioning of this website, nor can it be liable for any damage arising from the use of this website.