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Malcanis Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.08.28 19:16:00 - [31] Originally by: Beltantis Torrence Edited by: Beltantis Torrence on 28/08/2008 19:07:47 Originally by: Malcanis Stuff. Gotcha. Ok, well that makes more sense. At first you were talking about how prices were negatively impacted from Empire, so I read the implication that you wanted better pricing. If you're cool with it just being more like the 'wild wild west' then I think that'd be a valuable addition to Eve in general. As I said in my OP, I recognise that the "deep, deep 0.0" idea is far from perfect (or sufficient, at any rate). You seem to be well able to discuss the concepts I'm concerned with, so: Please by all means put forward any ideas that you have. If they're dumb, we can discuss, dissect and dispose of them. If they're smart we can use them. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Ethen Bejorn	Posted - 2008.08.28 19:17:00 - [32] Originally by: Malcanis Stuff Weren't you in Exceed?
Malcanis Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.08.28 19:25:00 - [33] Originally by: Ethen Bejorn Originally by: Malcanis Stuff Weren't you in Exceed? I was. It's not relevant to this thread. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Drunk Driver Gallente	Posted - 2008.08.28 19:34:00 - [34] Originally by: Malcanis Stuff.... Trying to force others to adapt to your play style is understandable, but bad. .
Coltach SlingDraw Corp	Posted - 2008.08.28 19:45:00 - [35] Originally by: Malcanis Let's make 0.0 really big. Let's triple it in size. And make most of the new space on the far side of the current outer regions. (I'm all for adding a few new NPC sov regions with lots of empire access points to encourage new 0.0 players but that's a different issue). Basically, I envision areas of 0.0 so far from empire that even with cap ships and jump freighters, it's still worthwhile developing a local economy rather than importing stuff from empire. Maybe with a few "islands" of lo-sec where NPCs can sell skillbooks and T1 BPOs... and perhaps the "islands used to link the new space to current 0.0 so no one alliance can set up a jump bridge network the whole distance. The new space would have to be above average quality to compensate for the loss of empire supplies (or else the inhabitants wouldn't be able to compete with close-to-empire alliances). I'm just throwing this idea out for the dogs to sniff. I recognise it's hardly perfect, but tbh I'm bored of the slanging matches, Let's have a productive discussion. let's hear some ideas. I like it, but as others mention, theres the problem of POS fuel, the NPC supplied variety, same for skills and a few other items. Why not solve that by leasing station office space, assembly lines and labs to NPC corps. Say you go far far away, set up shop. for a while you build and defend, gaining sov. At max level sov, you can lease to NPC corps, like Chemal Tech. They use up space, assembly lines and raw materials, all supplied and maintained by the station owners, and produce (for a price) Enriched Uranium for the POS's. Lease office space and labs to a school to get skillbooks a.s.o You now have a functional mini empire, independant of the main empires, but still lacking implants, LP stores and many other empire produced odds and ends, theres still lots to trade with. Your empire is also open to attack like any other player driven entity, if sov drops, the NPC's pack up and go home. It removes the tedium of moving fuel and being slaved to empire, without cutting all ties or creating an inviolate area to live in.
Malcanis Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.08.28 19:51:00 - [36] Originally by: Drunk Driver Originally by: Malcanis Stuff.... Trying to force others to adapt to your play style is understandable, but bad. . I agree. That's why I want to stop adapting to untouchable carebears. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Drunk Driver Gallente	Posted - 2008.08.28 19:59:00 - [37] Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Drunk Driver Originally by: Malcanis Stuff.... Trying to force others to adapt to your play style is understandable, but bad. . I agree. That's why I want to stop adapting to untouchable carebears. Untouchable carebears..... Is this another attempt at pirate revenge for the suggested security changes to Empire? It sure seems that way. Untouchable carebears..... Yep, you gave yourself away with that one. .
Malcanis Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.08.28 20:14:00 - [38] Originally by: Drunk Driver Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Drunk Driver Originally by: Malcanis Stuff.... Trying to force others to adapt to your play style is understandable, but bad. . I agree. That's why I want to stop adapting to untouchable carebears. Untouchable carebears..... Is this another attempt at pirate revenge for the suggested security changes to Empire? It sure seems that way. Untouchable carebears..... Yep, you gave yourself away with that one. . What on earth are you talking about? CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Claudia Voltaire	Posted - 2008.08.28 20:17:00 - [39] Originally by: Malcanis Hi-sec carebears are asking for and receiving increased protection from PvPers. Fine, I won't say that I'm not disappointed with CCP for giving it to them, but they've evidently made their decision. All I'm asking for is similar consideration for those who don't like that playstyle - in a way that preserve's EvE unique single-shard setup (a non-negotiable as far as I'm concerned) CCP made the decision to change the penalty ratios, nothing more. If you or anybody else don't find to your liking the actions/playstyles of others, your free as you ever were to act as you allways have been. The only thing thats changing is the penalties for doing so. From whats been said, the changes their making seem to be perfectly reasonable, they keep the sandbox as wide open as it ever was, only thing thats changing is you guys no longer have unlimited credits to play with
Malcanis Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.08.28 20:30:00 - [40] Originally by: Claudia Voltaire Originally by: Malcanis Hi-sec carebears are asking for and receiving increased protection from PvPers. Fine, I won't say that I'm not disappointed with CCP for giving it to them, but they've evidently made their decision. All I'm asking for is similar consideration for those who don't like that playstyle - in a way that preserve's EvE unique single-shard setup (a non-negotiable as far as I'm concerned) CCP made the decision to change the penalty ratios, nothing more. If you or anybody else don't find to your liking the actions/playstyles of others, your free as you ever were to act as you allways have been. The only thing thats changing is the penalties for doing so. From whats been said, the changes their making seem to be perfectly reasonable, they keep the sandbox as wide open as it ever was, only thing thats changing is you guys no longer have unlimited credits to play with I'm not arguing their decision. All I'm asking is to be insulated from the effects of it with distance, just as they have insulated the high-sec carebears with CONCORD. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Sodium Phosphate Gallente Killer Koalas Kingdom of Butan	Posted - 2008.08.28 20:51:00 - [41] TBH I really wouldn't mind additional 0.0 space added to the game. My only catch is that they must have their own pipes and choke points to empire and should not be behind other 0.0 regions, especially not MM. Just make those pipes long enough for carriers to take the suggested 15-20 jumps. Eve really needs a more dynamic cluster for exploration and expansion. But I'm sure the devs are limited by server resources and such.
Drunk Driver Gallente	Posted - 2008.08.28 20:54:00 - [42] Originally by: Malcanis I'm not arguing their decision. All I'm asking is to be insulated from the effects of it with distance, just as they have insulated the high-sec carebears with CONCORD. My guess is you're throwing this forum hissy fit because you've got a pirate alt somewhere that's doing Empire pirating. The new Empire security changes will ruin that for you. You're angry, and trying to get some payback against the carebears because you think their whining brought about those changes. Of course you can say you're just trying to make the game better. However your timing seems to be, well, suspect. Answer this question. How hard did you push for these changes BEFORE the new Empire security suggestions were posted? Could you link us to some those posts? Prove me wrong. I don't mind. .
Malcanis Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.08.28 20:58:00 - [43] Originally by: Drunk Driver Originally by: Malcanis I'm not arguing their decision. All I'm asking is to be insulated from the effects of it with distance, just as they have insulated the high-sec carebears with CONCORD. My guess is you're throwing this forum hissy fit because you've got a pirate alt somewhere that's doing Empire pirating. The new Empire security changes will ruin that for you. You're angry, and trying to get some payback against the carebears because you think their whining brought about those changes. Of course you can say you're just trying to make the game better. However your timing seems to be, well, suspect. Answer this question. How hard did you push for these changes BEFORE the new Empire security suggestions were posted? Could you link us to some those posts? Prove me wrong. I don't mind. . How could I prove this? OK How about this: I don't have a pirate alt. whatever pirating I've done, I've done with this character. As for "hissy fit"... can you point to the hissiest part? Something hissier than the posts you've made? Seems like I've made a post asking for constructive engagement and you're locked into a "whatever is good for PvPers is bad for me" mindset. So throw down. Take me at my word if you can. Produce an idea that suits you. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Sodium Phosphate Gallente Killer Koalas Kingdom of Butan	Posted - 2008.08.28 21:01:00 - [44] Originally by: Drunk Driver Originally by: Malcanis I'm not arguing their decision. All I'm asking is to be insulated from the effects of it with distance, just as they have insulated the high-sec carebears with CONCORD. My guess is you're throwing this forum hissy fit because you've got a pirate alt somewhere that's doing Empire pirating. The new Empire security changes will ruin that for you. You're angry, and trying to get some payback against the carebears because you think their whining brought about those changes. Of course you can say you're just trying to make the game better. However your timing seems to be, well, suspect. Answer this question. How hard did you push for these changes BEFORE the new Empire security suggestions were posted? Could you link us to some those posts? Prove me wrong. I don't mind. . Why does it matter when he posted his suggestion? Could you please contribute to the discussion instead of posting with and alt and trying to discredit the OP? Offer some suggestions of your own.
Drunk Driver Gallente	Posted - 2008.08.28 21:05:00 - [45] Originally by: Sodium Phosphate Why does it matter when he posted his suggestion? Could you please contribute to the discussion instead of posting with and alt and trying to discredit the OP? Offer some suggestions of your own. Ummmm... Does he need you to defend him and what makes you think he can't prove he posted prior the the suggested security changes? Do you know something we don't? .
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2008.08.28 21:05:00 - [46] Originally by: Sodium Phosphate Why does it matter when he posted his suggestion? Could you please contribute to the discussion instead of posting with and alt and trying to discredit the OP? Offer some suggestions of your own. Because Drunk Driver has long since lost the plot completely. When the discussion started going over his head, he started trolling. It's a common phenomenon... ... in stupid people. Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
Sodium Phosphate Gallente Killer Koalas Kingdom of Butan	Posted - 2008.08.28 21:09:00 - [47] Originally by: Ki An Originally by: Sodium Phosphate Why does it matter when he posted his suggestion? Could you please contribute to the discussion instead of posting with and alt and trying to discredit the OP? Offer some suggestions of your own. Because Drunk Driver has long since lost the plot completely. When the discussion started going over his head, he started trolling. It's a common phenomenon... ... in stupid people. fascinating.....
Drunk Driver Gallente	Posted - 2008.08.28 21:11:00 - [48] Originally by: Malcanis How could I prove this? OK How about this: I don't have a pirate alt. whatever pirating I've done, I've done with this character. As for "hissy fit"... can you point to the hissiest part? Something hissier than the posts you've made? Seems like I've made a post asking for constructive engagement and you're locked into a "whatever is good for PvPers is bad for me" mindset. So throw down. Take me at my word if you can. Produce an idea that suits you. I will not take you at your word. Your word means nothing to me. I observe your actions and find them suspect. I've explained why. You've chosen not to respond. Which means, you're actions are still suspect. .
Malcanis Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.08.28 21:13:00 - [49] Originally by: Drunk Driver Originally by: Sodium Phosphate Why does it matter when he posted his suggestion? Could you please contribute to the discussion instead of posting with and alt and trying to discredit the OP? Offer some suggestions of your own. Ummmm... Does he need you to defend him and what makes you think he can't prove he posted prior the the suggested security changes? Do you know something we don't? . So what's your theory? I'm asking for a viable alternative literally as far from Empire as possible as part of a complicated plot to kill kittens in hi-sec? Come on man, you're not even trying. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Drunk Driver Gallente	Posted - 2008.08.28 21:14:00 - [50] Originally by: Ki An Originally by: Sodium Phosphate Why does it matter when he posted his suggestion? Could you please contribute to the discussion instead of posting with and alt and trying to discredit the OP? Offer some suggestions of your own. Because Drunk Driver has long since lost the plot completely. When the discussion started going over his head, he started trolling. It's a common phenomenon... ... in stupid people. All he has to do is prove he was complaining about this with the same passion BEFORE the security changes were posted. That's not hard. Even you could do it. .
Drunk Driver Gallente	Posted - 2008.08.28 21:18:00 - [51] Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Drunk Driver Originally by: Sodium Phosphate Why does it matter when he posted his suggestion? Could you please contribute to the discussion instead of posting with and alt and trying to discredit the OP? Offer some suggestions of your own. Ummmm... Does he need you to defend him and what makes you think he can't prove he posted prior the the suggested security changes? Do you know something we don't? . So what's your theory? I'm asking for a viable alternative literally as far from Empire as possible as part of a complicated plot to kill kittens in hi-sec? Come on man, you're not even trying. Yawn....... Non-answer. Still waiting for those links. .
Malcanis Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.08.28 21:22:00 - [52] Originally by: Drunk Driver Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Drunk Driver Originally by: Sodium Phosphate Why does it matter when he posted his suggestion? Could you please contribute to the discussion instead of posting with and alt and trying to discredit the OP? Offer some suggestions of your own. Ummmm... Does he need you to defend him and what makes you think he can't prove he posted prior the the suggested security changes? Do you know something we don't? . So what's your theory? I'm asking for a viable alternative literally as far from Empire as possible as part of a complicated plot to kill kittens in hi-sec? Come on man, you're not even trying. Yawn....... Non-answer. Still waiting for those links. . Links to what? CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Malcanis Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.08.28 21:23:00 - [53] Originally by: Drunk Driver Originally by: Ki An Originally by: Sodium Phosphate Why does it matter when he posted his suggestion? Could you please contribute to the discussion instead of posting with and alt and trying to discredit the OP? Offer some suggestions of your own. Because Drunk Driver has long since lost the plot completely. When the discussion started going over his head, he started trolling. It's a common phenomenon... ... in stupid people. All he has to do is prove he was complaining about this with the same passion BEFORE the security changes were posted. That's not hard. Even you could do it. . Why do I have to prove that? CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Sodium Phosphate Gallente Killer Koalas Kingdom of Butan	Posted - 2008.08.28 21:24:00 - [54] Originally by: Drunk Driver Yawn....... Non-answer. Still waiting for those links. . Ya, you still haven't made it relevant why it matters that he has or hasnt argued for expansion of 0.0 before the sec hit changes. You just find adding 0.0 systems....suspect.... riiiggghhht....
Clair Bear Coalition of Nations Free Trade Zone.	Posted - 2008.08.28 21:25:00 - [55] No need to add systems. Just about every system in 0.0 is uninhabited as is. Just quadruple (or more) the distance in light years between systems. Not visible to gate-campable travelers but puts a giant crimp in cap ship hauling and ability of small entities to control most of 0.0. Capitals online becomes a lot harder when it costs you 20B in jump fuel to hot drop a 700 cap ship fleet on your neighbors. If this is too much of a nerf to jump freighters then simply double their gas mileage. Let 0.0 be more independent from empire. NPC goods blow. 0.0 should be a player run part of eve. Let residents make the NPC goods from worthless moon minerals or frozen corpses or SOMETHING that doesn't require a trip back to empire. Sharding without sharding. Just dooo eeet.
Malcanis Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.08.28 21:29:00 - [56] Originally by: Clair Bear No need to add systems. Just about every system in 0.0 is uninhabited as is. Just quadruple (or more) the distance in light years between systems. Not visible to gate-campable travelers but puts a giant crimp in cap ship hauling and ability of small entities to control most of 0.0. Capitals online becomes a lot harder when it costs you 20B in jump fuel to hot drop a 700 cap ship fleet on your neighbors. If this is too much of a nerf to jump freighters then simply double their gas mileage. Let 0.0 be more independent from empire. NPC goods blow. 0.0 should be a player run part of eve. Let residents make the NPC goods from worthless moon minerals or frozen corpses or SOMETHING that doesn't require a trip back to empire. Sharding without sharding. Just dooo eeet. Needs more space because much of 0.0 is worthless compared to empire. That's the whole point - 1 system in empire can support many more players than 1 system in 0.0. Needs more space because even the remotest parts of 0.0 are less than 2 hours from Jita. Needs much more space so that the current powerblocs simply can't nomnom it all. Apart from that we're on the same page. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Hegbard	Posted - 2008.08.28 21:52:00 - [57] Separate currency. Not spendable in empire, only exchangeable through direct contact between players in stations. For an added bonus: allow players to start their own currencies backed any way they want (although that would require a bit more work from CCP). A separate currency would decouple the markets. While not making it completely impossible to trade between empire and 0.0, it would make it harder enough to encourage local markets. And it would be interesting too.
Malcanis Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.08.28 21:58:00 - [58] Originally by: Hegbard Separate currency. Not spendable in empire, only exchangeable through direct contact between players in stations. For an added bonus: allow players to start their own currencies backed any way they want (although that would require a bit more work from CCP). A separate currency would decouple the markets. While not making it completely impossible to trade between empire and 0.0, it would make it harder enough to encourage local markets. And it would be interesting too. AKA LPs. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Vin Fell DARKFELL EXCURSIONS	Posted - 2008.08.28 22:05:00 - [59] I've read all this now, and something I read like a year ago came back to me. This isn't a straight correlation with the ideas of the OP, but might interest and further help the discussion in unknown ways. :) It's about removing Gates, and the effects that would have, and the alternatives placed in. It was a novel idea at the time I think. General Discussion thread by Adunh Slavy : Linkage
Morcam	Posted - 2008.08.28 22:07:00 - [60] If you combined this with buffs to minerals, it would be great. Otherwise, it would impractical to live so far away from empire.

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