Originally by: Akita T

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I don't know wether to congratulate you on a well articulated analysis of the problems or congratulate you on a very subtle troll


Bottom line is, even if you increase distance hugely from empire, you'll still have plenty of people going there from empire and back in order to move stuff you absolutely need from empire areas (NPC sold POS consumables, skillbooks, blueprints, etc)

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Originally by: Beltantis Torrence

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This post is riddled with half truthes. Do they drive up the price of faction gear? Yes. They also drastically reduce the price of T2 and named gear. Drop the economic arguments and stick to the point - you think you should be able to attack and kill people in high sec. Fair enough, you're entitled to that opinion. CCP would prefer high sec go a different direction.

C'est la vie, they want Eve to have broad appeal and high sec delivers that appeal.

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Originally by: Akita T

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I don't know wether to congratulate you on a well articulated analysis of the problems or congratulate you on a very subtle troll

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Originally by: Akita T

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Bottom line is, even if you increase distance hugely from empire, you'll still have plenty of people going there from empire and back in order to move stuff you absolutely need from empire areas (NPC sold POS consumables, skillbooks, blueprints, etc), and since there's no point making it a one-way trip, the back leg with stuff from your area is almost ensured to happen.

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Originally by: Akita T

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If you want to have even the least bit of success with this "remote area", you'd have to NOT have any patches of highsec at all anywhere close... BUT a couple of islands of LOWSEC space here and there (at most a couple of systems per region) would be just awesome... you WILL need however NPC stations there that sell *everything* you'd normally have to go to "empire space" and only empire space to get.

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Originally by: Tarminic

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Because even when EVE sucks, it sucks less than every other MMO out there.

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Originally by: Beltantis Torrence

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This post is riddled with half truthes. Do they drive up the price of faction gear? Yes. They also drastically reduce the price of T2 and named gear. Drop the economic arguments and stick to the point - you think you should be able to attack and kill people in high sec. Fair enough, you're entitled to that opinion. CCP would prefer high sec go a different direction.

C'est la vie, they want Eve to have broad appeal and high sec delivers that appeal.

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Originally by: Malcanis

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Originally by: Beltantis Torrence

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This post is riddled with half truthes. Do they drive up the price of faction gear? Yes. They also drastically reduce the price of T2 and named gear. Drop the economic arguments and stick to the point - you think you should be able to attack and kill people in high sec. Fair enough, you're entitled to that opinion. CCP would prefer high sec go a different direction.

C'est la vie, they want Eve to have broad appeal and high sec delivers that appeal.

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Did you actually read what I wrote, or did you just respond to the type of player that you assume I am? Because if the former, your reply makes no sense. What part of "you're welcome to hi-sec, I want no part of it as long as it doesn't impact me" is a problem for you.

I've tried empire wardecs. It blows.

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Originally by: Malcanis

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Originally by: Beltantis Torrence

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This post is riddled with half truthes. Do they drive up the price of faction gear? Yes. They also drastically reduce the price of T2 and named gear. Drop the economic arguments and stick to the point - you think you should be able to attack and kill people in high sec. Fair enough, you're entitled to that opinion. CCP would prefer high sec go a different direction.

C'est la vie, they want Eve to have broad appeal and high sec delivers that appeal.

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Named...? Maybe.

T2? How? Mission runners contribute nothing towards t2 supply, and provide the ISK to drive up demand. How can they have anything but an upwards effect on T2 prices?

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Originally by: Davina Braben

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Edited by: Davina Braben on 28/08/2008 17:57:02
Interesting. So basically your idea is 0.0 space where the economy is not at all polluted by carebears?

How does that actually work out for 0.0 dwellers though if they can't haul their 0.0 minerals / loots to Jita to sell?

The idea I guess is that you've got enough people in your new region to make a local economy viable (as opposed to a local gougeconomy). I guess the low sec in the middle would be the neutral stations for people to trade at (because when you've got a finite number of people trading in one place people tend to take the **** with prices).

Mind you, if there aren't goods coming in from Empire that's just going to even out supply and demand wise.

Next question would be if people actually want that or if they quite like all their stuffs being cheap.

Euhh.. and as Akita says you have to wonder how far the route out would have to be before people wouldn't make the trip. I mean if you think about it people'd only have to as far as the first place you could jump a freighter / cap to.

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Originally by: Beltantis Torrence

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Originally by: Malcanis

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Originally by: Beltantis Torrence

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This post is riddled with half truthes. Do they drive up the price of faction gear? Yes. They also drastically reduce the price of T2 and named gear. Drop the economic arguments and stick to the point - you think you should be able to attack and kill people in high sec. Fair enough, you're entitled to that opinion. CCP would prefer high sec go a different direction.

C'est la vie, they want Eve to have broad appeal and high sec delivers that appeal.

---

Did you actually read what I wrote, or did you just respond to the type of player that you assume I am? Because if the former, your reply makes no sense. What part of "you're welcome to hi-sec, I want no part of it as long as it doesn't impact me" is a problem for you.

I've tried empire wardecs. It blows.

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I read what you wrote and dismissed it because it doesn't address anything you talk about. You make an assumption that people wouldn't bother moving goods long distances. That assumption is wrong. It would work one way or the other. Either there's not enough supply to supply the area, in which case there would be people bringing them the distance for a premium or there would be so much that people would just bring them back to Empire to sell them at a premium. The area being valuable would then be dominated by a large alliance and the top 10% of that alliance would greatly profit while everyone else would still be whining about how high sec has it easier.

Obviously you have to realize this and furthermore you have to realize that even if Empire went away and the whole game was low sec or null sec you still wouldn't be able to 'sufficiently grief' carebears to the point where you'd be able to affect the market. High sec vs low sec is moot. Its capitalism working as intended. Either they'll achieve a risk free environment in high sec or they'll achieve it deep in alliance space, difference being the latter will be less fun for people and so they'll quit rather than paying the taxes that entails.

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Originally by: Malcanis

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I cant respond to you because nothing you said makes any sense to me.

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Originally by: Beltantis Torrence

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Edited by: Beltantis Torrence on 28/08/2008 18:21:07

Originally by: Malcanis

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Originally by: Beltantis Torrence

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This post is riddled with half truthes. Do they drive up the price of faction gear? Yes. They also drastically reduce the price of T2 and named gear. Drop the economic arguments and stick to the point - you think you should be able to attack and kill people in high sec. Fair enough, you're entitled to that opinion. CCP would prefer high sec go a different direction.

C'est la vie, they want Eve to have broad appeal and high sec delivers that appeal.

---

Named...? Maybe.

T2? How? Mission runners contribute nothing towards t2 supply, and provide the ISK to drive up demand. How can they have anything but an upwards effect on T2 prices?

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They provide liquidity. Ditto for rigs, etc.

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Originally by: Beltantis Torrence

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Edited to add: The only way to cut it off would be to shard the server. I'm not against this, to be honest, but I think your perceptions about how economics in Eve work are a bit off. You seem obsessed with the minor downsides of high sec mission runners (over-supply of certain goods, increased buying power for mission runners) while neglecting what would happen if you drastically reduced demand for goods or NPC seeded them.

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Originally by: Beltantis Torrence

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Edited by: Beltantis Torrence on 28/08/2008 18:28:45

Originally by: Malcanis

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I cant respond to you because nothing you said makes any sense to me.

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Try reading a book on economics then before you carry on a campaign against mission runner economics that spans a dozen threads. Nothing I'm mentioning is very hard to grasp. If you don't shard the server, the markets will be correlated.

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Originally by: Malcanis

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That would only hold true if T2 supply was demand-limited. But the fundamental limit on T2 production is the very finite supply of moon minerals. No matter how many people want to buy T2, the amount that can be supplied is absolutely defined by the output of the known number of dysprosium moons.

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Originally by: Malcanis

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To put it another way: is there anything you oppose about my suggestion?

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Originally by: Beltantis Torrence

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Originally by: Malcanis

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That would only hold true if T2 supply was demand-limited. But the fundamental limit on T2 production is the very finite supply of moon minerals. No matter how many people want to buy T2, the amount that can be supplied is absolutely defined by the output of the known number of dysprosium moons.

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That's true for some items. That isn't true however generally speaking. Supply determines base cost, margin is determined by volume and competition. Even though Eve isn't what I'd call an extremely efficient market, it is an efficient market, to some extent. The higher the volume the good you are trading/manufacturing, the lower a margin you will be able to make on it.

Originally by: Malcanis

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To put it another way: is there anything you oppose about my suggestion?

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I think it would accomplish exactly the opposite of what you suggest. If the area is good, it'll be either tightly controlled (read: much like T2 BPO's the few will benefit at the expense of the many) or you'll see people coming out to exploit it and then return to high sec. All you'd do is mess up the economy worse than it already is to be honest.

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Originally by: Malcanis

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So help me out here: if you can think of suggestions for making hi-sec basically irrelevent to my 0.0 lifestyle, we can talk about them, refine them and put them forward as a proposal that the majority can support.

One idea that occured to me:

Let's make 0.0 really big. Let's triple it in size. And make most of the new space on the far side of the current outer regions. (I'm all for adding a few new NPC sov regions with lots of empire access points to encourage new 0.0 players but that's a different issue). Basically, I envision areas of 0.0 so far from empire that even with cap ships and jump freighters, it's still worthwhile developing a local economy rather than importing stuff from empire. Maybe with a few "islands" of lo-sec where NPCs can sell skillbooks and T1 BPOs... and perhaps the "islands used to link the new space to current 0.0 so no one alliance can set up a jump bridge network the whole distance.

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Originally by: Khrillian

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Originally by: Malcanis

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So help me out here: if you can think of suggestions for making hi-sec basically irrelevent to my 0.0 lifestyle, we can talk about them, refine them and put them forward as a proposal that the majority can support.

One idea that occured to me:

Let's make 0.0 really big. Let's triple it in size. And make most of the new space on the far side of the current outer regions. (I'm all for adding a few new NPC sov regions with lots of empire access points to encourage new 0.0 players but that's a different issue). Basically, I envision areas of 0.0 so far from empire that even with cap ships and jump freighters, it's still worthwhile developing a local economy rather than importing stuff from empire. Maybe with a few "islands" of lo-sec where NPCs can sell skillbooks and T1 BPOs... and perhaps the "islands used to link the new space to current 0.0 so no one alliance can set up a jump bridge network the whole distance.

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I'll throw out the obvious option that CCP would never implement - PVE servers and PVP servers. It's what basically every other MMO does to solve this problem.

No matter what happens to 0.0 mechanics or region size or whatever, most pvpers will always have a money making empire alt who supports the 0.0 pvp habit. It seems unrealistic to change this (and probably almost impossible unless 0.0 becomes a lot more profitable). In that sense your income will always be tied to your alts income and thus to the activities of carebears.

With your "deep 0.0" regions I think people would still import from empire. Empire is cheaper and risk-free and easy to get your hands on all the materials you need at a steady rate. However it would just be more of a logistical hassle and prices would reflect that. There are luxuries empire manufacturing offers that 0.0 can never have (empire won't get invaded by a hostile alliance, tying up your assets at a station, or have POSes attacked, cutting off your supply of T2 components, etc).

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Originally by: Malcanis

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There's nothing wrong with players controlling regions of 0.0, and I'm not sure why you would think there is. That's the whole point of player sov 0.0.
Additionally, there is a non-trivial expense in resources and time to control space - tripling the amount available will stretch the capabilities of even the largest alliances.

I'm not sure how it would accomplish "the exact opposite"? How would having extremely remote regions of 0.0 in addition to what we have already make the economic effects of empire more prevalent? I'm puzzled?

One of the major issues that I have with hi-sec level 4s is that a single agent can financially support as many players as a whole region of space (especially if that region isn't very good quality). If the "carrying capacity" of 0.0 is greatly expanded, then this will become far less of an issue. You can pick up my faction fit CNR for cheap on contracts and I can make my living in deep, deep 0.0. Bonus!


Anyway look: I don't want to turn this into a slanging match. I've asked for help and ideas - put some out there for me.

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Originally by: Khrillian

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I'll throw out the obvious option that CCP would never implement - PVE servers and PVP servers. It's what basically every other MMO does to solve this problem.

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Originally by: Beltantis Torrence

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Originally by: Malcanis

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There's nothing wrong with players controlling regions of 0.0, and I'm not sure why you would think there is. That's the whole point of player sov 0.0.
Additionally, there is a non-trivial expense in resources and time to control space - tripling the amount available will stretch the capabilities of even the largest alliances.

I'm not sure how it would accomplish "the exact opposite"? How would having extremely remote regions of 0.0 in addition to what we have already make the economic effects of empire more prevalent? I'm puzzled?

One of the major issues that I have with hi-sec level 4s is that a single agent can financially support as many players as a whole region of space (especially if that region isn't very good quality). If the "carrying capacity" of 0.0 is greatly expanded, then this will become far less of an issue. You can pick up my faction fit CNR for cheap on contracts and I can make my living in deep, deep 0.0. Bonus!


Anyway look: I don't want to turn this into a slanging match. I've asked for help and ideas - put some out there for me.

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Long distance from Empire + alliance control means you'd have a much more difficult (not less difficult) time sustaining yourself in that space. How you could complain about cost increases on faction gear but not mind that you'd be in the middle of nowhere, all economic benefits exploited by the few and by bulk traders of expensive goods and not have alternatives to purchase the more basic items so completely at the whim of whoever controlled the belts...?

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Originally by: Malcanis

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Stuff.

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Originally by: Beltantis Torrence

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Edited by: Beltantis Torrence on 28/08/2008 19:07:47

Originally by: Malcanis

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Stuff.

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Gotcha. Ok, well that makes more sense. At first you were talking about how prices were negatively impacted from Empire, so I read the implication that you wanted better pricing. If you're cool with it just being more like the 'wild wild west' then I think that'd be a valuable addition to Eve in general.

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Originally by: Malcanis

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Stuff

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Originally by: Ethen Bejorn

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Originally by: Malcanis

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Stuff

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Weren't you in Exceed?

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Originally by: Malcanis

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Stuff....

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Originally by: Malcanis

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Let's make 0.0 really big. Let's triple it in size. And make most of the new space on the far side of the current outer regions. (I'm all for adding a few new NPC sov regions with lots of empire access points to encourage new 0.0 players but that's a different issue). Basically, I envision areas of 0.0 so far from empire that even with cap ships and jump freighters, it's still worthwhile developing a local economy rather than importing stuff from empire. Maybe with a few "islands" of lo-sec where NPCs can sell skillbooks and T1 BPOs... and perhaps the "islands used to link the new space to current 0.0 so no one alliance can set up a jump bridge network the whole distance.
The new space would have to be above average quality to compensate for the loss of empire supplies (or else the inhabitants wouldn't be able to compete with close-to-empire alliances).

I'm just throwing this idea out for the dogs to sniff. I recognise it's hardly perfect, but tbh I'm bored of the slanging matches, Let's have a productive discussion. let's hear some ideas.

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Originally by: Drunk Driver

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Originally by: Malcanis

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Stuff....

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Trying to force others to adapt to your play style is understandable, but bad.




.

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Originally by: Malcanis

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Originally by: Drunk Driver

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Originally by: Malcanis

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Stuff....

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Trying to force others to adapt to your play style is understandable, but bad.




.

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I agree. That's why I want to stop adapting to untouchable carebears.

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Originally by: Drunk Driver

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Originally by: Malcanis

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Originally by: Drunk Driver

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Originally by: Malcanis

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Stuff....

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Trying to force others to adapt to your play style is understandable, but bad.




.

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I agree. That's why I want to stop adapting to untouchable carebears.

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Untouchable carebears.....


Is this another attempt at pirate revenge for the suggested security changes to Empire?

It sure seems that way.

Untouchable carebears.....

Yep, you gave yourself away with that one.





.

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Originally by: Malcanis

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Hi-sec carebears are asking for and receiving increased protection from PvPers. Fine, I won't say that I'm not disappointed with CCP for giving it to them, but they've evidently made their decision. All I'm asking for is similar consideration for those who don't like that playstyle - in a way that preserve's EvE unique single-shard setup (a non-negotiable as far as I'm concerned)

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Originally by: Claudia Voltaire

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Originally by: Malcanis

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Hi-sec carebears are asking for and receiving increased protection from PvPers. Fine, I won't say that I'm not disappointed with CCP for giving it to them, but they've evidently made their decision. All I'm asking for is similar consideration for those who don't like that playstyle - in a way that preserve's EvE unique single-shard setup (a non-negotiable as far as I'm concerned)

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CCP made the decision to change the penalty ratios, nothing more.

If you or anybody else don't find to your liking the actions/playstyles of others, your free as you ever were to act as you allways have been.

The only thing thats changing is the penalties for doing so.

From whats been said, the changes their making seem to be perfectly reasonable, they keep the sandbox as wide open as it ever was, only thing thats changing is you guys no longer have unlimited credits to play with

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Originally by: Malcanis

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I'm not arguing their decision. All I'm asking is to be insulated from the effects of it with distance, just as they have insulated the high-sec carebears with CONCORD.

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Originally by: Drunk Driver

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Originally by: Malcanis

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I'm not arguing their decision. All I'm asking is to be insulated from the effects of it with distance, just as they have insulated the high-sec carebears with CONCORD.

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My guess is you're throwing this forum hissy fit because you've got a pirate alt somewhere that's doing Empire pirating. The new Empire security changes will ruin that for you. You're angry, and trying to get some payback against the carebears because you think their whining brought about those changes.

Of course you can say you're just trying to make the game better. However your timing seems to be, well, suspect.

Answer this question.

How hard did you push for these changes BEFORE the new Empire security suggestions were posted? Could you link us to some those posts?

Prove me wrong. I don't mind.




.

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Originally by: Drunk Driver

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Originally by: Malcanis

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I'm not arguing their decision. All I'm asking is to be insulated from the effects of it with distance, just as they have insulated the high-sec carebears with CONCORD.

---

My guess is you're throwing this forum hissy fit because you've got a pirate alt somewhere that's doing Empire pirating. The new Empire security changes will ruin that for you. You're angry, and trying to get some payback against the carebears because you think their whining brought about those changes.

Of course you can say you're just trying to make the game better. However your timing seems to be, well, suspect.

Answer this question.

How hard did you push for these changes BEFORE the new Empire security suggestions were posted? Could you link us to some those posts?

Prove me wrong. I don't mind.




.

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Originally by: Sodium Phosphate

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Why does it matter when he posted his suggestion? Could you please contribute to the discussion instead of posting with and alt and trying to discredit the OP? Offer some suggestions of your own.

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Originally by: Sodium Phosphate

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Why does it matter when he posted his suggestion? Could you please contribute to the discussion instead of posting with and alt and trying to discredit the OP? Offer some suggestions of your own.

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Originally by: Ki An

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Originally by: Sodium Phosphate

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Why does it matter when he posted his suggestion? Could you please contribute to the discussion instead of posting with and alt and trying to discredit the OP? Offer some suggestions of your own.

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Because Drunk Driver has long since lost the plot completely. When the discussion started going over his head, he started trolling. It's a common phenomenon...

... in stupid people.

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Originally by: Malcanis

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How could I prove this?

OK How about this: I don't have a pirate alt. whatever pirating I've done, I've done with this character.

As for "hissy fit"... can you point to the hissiest part? Something hissier than the posts you've made? Seems like I've made a post asking for constructive engagement and you're locked into a "whatever is good for PvPers is bad for me" mindset.

So throw down. Take me at my word if you can. Produce an idea that suits you.

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Originally by: Drunk Driver

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Originally by: Sodium Phosphate

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Why does it matter when he posted his suggestion? Could you please contribute to the discussion instead of posting with and alt and trying to discredit the OP? Offer some suggestions of your own.

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Ummmm...

Does he need you to defend him and what makes you think he can't prove he posted prior the the suggested security changes?


Do you know something we don't?



.

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Originally by: Ki An

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Originally by: Sodium Phosphate

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Why does it matter when he posted his suggestion? Could you please contribute to the discussion instead of posting with and alt and trying to discredit the OP? Offer some suggestions of your own.

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Because Drunk Driver has long since lost the plot completely. When the discussion started going over his head, he started trolling. It's a common phenomenon...

... in stupid people.

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Originally by: Malcanis

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Originally by: Drunk Driver

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Originally by: Sodium Phosphate

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Why does it matter when he posted his suggestion? Could you please contribute to the discussion instead of posting with and alt and trying to discredit the OP? Offer some suggestions of your own.

---

Ummmm...

Does he need you to defend him and what makes you think he can't prove he posted prior the the suggested security changes?


Do you know something we don't?



.

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So what's your theory? I'm asking for a viable alternative literally as far from Empire as possible as part of a complicated plot to kill kittens in hi-sec?

Come on man, you're not even trying.

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Originally by: Drunk Driver

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Originally by: Malcanis

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Originally by: Drunk Driver

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Originally by: Sodium Phosphate

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Why does it matter when he posted his suggestion? Could you please contribute to the discussion instead of posting with and alt and trying to discredit the OP? Offer some suggestions of your own.

---

Ummmm...

Does he need you to defend him and what makes you think he can't prove he posted prior the the suggested security changes?


Do you know something we don't?



.

---

So what's your theory? I'm asking for a viable alternative literally as far from Empire as possible as part of a complicated plot to kill kittens in hi-sec?

Come on man, you're not even trying.

---

Yawn.......

Non-answer.

Still waiting for those links.




.

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Originally by: Drunk Driver

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Originally by: Ki An

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Originally by: Sodium Phosphate

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Why does it matter when he posted his suggestion? Could you please contribute to the discussion instead of posting with and alt and trying to discredit the OP? Offer some suggestions of your own.

---

Because Drunk Driver has long since lost the plot completely. When the discussion started going over his head, he started trolling. It's a common phenomenon...

... in stupid people.

---

All he has to do is prove he was complaining about this with the same passion BEFORE the security changes were posted.


That's not hard. Even you could do it.




.

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Originally by: Drunk Driver

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Yawn.......

Non-answer.

Still waiting for those links.

.

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Originally by: Clair Bear

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No need to add systems. Just about every system in 0.0 is uninhabited as is.

Just quadruple (or more) the distance in light years between systems. Not visible to gate-campable travelers but puts a giant crimp in cap ship hauling and ability of small entities to control most of 0.0. Capitals online becomes a lot harder when it costs you 20B in jump fuel to hot drop a 700 cap ship fleet on your neighbors.

If this is too much of a nerf to jump freighters then simply double their gas mileage.

Let 0.0 be more independent from empire. NPC goods blow. 0.0 should be a *player* run part of eve. Let residents make the NPC goods from worthless moon minerals or frozen corpses or SOMETHING that doesn't require a trip back to empire.

Sharding without sharding. Just dooo eeet.

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Originally by: Hegbard

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Separate currency. Not spendable in empire, only exchangeable through direct contact between players in stations. For an added bonus: allow players to start their own currencies backed any way they want (although that would require a bit more work from CCP).

A separate currency would decouple the markets. While not making it completely impossible to trade between empire and 0.0, it would make it harder enough to encourage local markets. And it would be interesting too.

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Originally by: Count Triton

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How about introducing these new regions without any stargates, and require them to be constructed?

They could also be seeded with unique materials/ores/salvage to make them worth exploring and holding.

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Originally by: Ki An

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Originally by: Sodium Phosphate

---

Why does it matter when he posted his suggestion? Could you please contribute to the discussion instead of posting with and alt and trying to discredit the OP? Offer some suggestions of your own.

---

Because Drunk Driver has long since lost the plot completely. When the discussion started going over his head, he started trolling. It's a common phenomenon...

... in stupid people.

---

Originally by: Malcanis

---

On the one hand we have a set of players who expect and desire EvE to be competitive in all aspects. (I am in this set)

On the other, we have those who believe that "leaving others alone" entitles them to be left alone.

Now as such, if someone is crazy enough to want to do nothing more in EvE than to endlessly grind the extremely sub-par PvE content, I say more power to them. Some people genuinely like German opera, so it just goes to show that no matter how incomprehensibly tedious an activity is, it will have it's fans.

The core issue is that when someone is grinding L4s in this way, they're not leaving me alone. They're driving up the price of fancy faction items I want to buy. They're driving down the price of minerals and salvage I want to sell. They're funding pirates who want to gank my blockade runner. They're supporting alliances I want to crush beneath my heel. And worst of all, they're trashing the price of LP store goods that I want to sell after I run missions.

Now frankly, as far as I am concerned: screw hi-sec. I don't like it. It's boring and crowded and bad men instapop my ship just for innocently accidentally shooting non-blues. You guys are welcome to it - all I want from there is skillbooks and low-priced T2.

So help me out here: if you can think of suggestions for making hi-sec basically irrelevent to my 0.0 lifestyle, we can talk about them, refine them and put them forward as a proposal that the majority can support.

One idea that occured to me:

Let's make 0.0 really big. Let's triple it in size. And make most of the new space on the far side of the current outer regions. (I'm all for adding a few new NPC sov regions with lots of empire access points to encourage new 0.0 players but that's a different issue). Basically, I envision areas of 0.0 so far from empire that even with cap ships and jump freighters, it's still worthwhile developing a local economy rather than importing stuff from empire. Maybe with a few "islands" of lo-sec where NPCs can sell skillbooks and T1 BPOs... and perhaps the "islands used to link the new space to current 0.0 so no one alliance can set up a jump bridge network the whole distance.
The new space would have to be above average quality to compensate for the loss of empire supplies (or else the inhabitants wouldn't be able to compete with close-to-empire alliances).

I'm just throwing this idea out for the dogs to sniff. I recognise it's hardly perfect, but tbh I'm bored of the slanging matches, Let's have a productive discussion. let's hear some ideas.

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Originally by: Johncrab

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All of this coming from a char in a npc corp is, to say the least, a contradiction.
Oh, and 0.0 is full of farming carebears. How do 0.0 alliances fund their super capitals...? From looting in pvp it isn't that's for sure

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Originally by: Gamesguy

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Originally by: Johncrab

---

All of this coming from a char in a npc corp is, to say the least, a contradiction.
Oh, and 0.0 is full of farming carebears. How do 0.0 alliances fund their super capitals...? From looting in pvp it isn't that's for sure

---

The difference is if you don't like my carebearing ways or want my carebearing isk you can always come and try to take it from this carebear.

So, how about it? Wanna try?

---

Originally by: Digital Solaris

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I like the idea, but there is a problem. How would you "introduce" the new systems as how FW introduced the region Black Rise were anything but bizarre, and I am nitpicking.

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Originally by: Empyre

---

Oh look. Yet another L4 mission nerf whine. Just how do L4 mission runners effect the price of faction goods, pray tell?

I'd love for CCP to take missions completely out of the game all of the sudden for a month. I bet you an alt of mine half of you would be back here whining because mineral prices are too high and people aren't producing enough wares to support your pvp activities.

This perpetual whining is what is going to ultimately cause me to close my last two accounts, not any nerf.

---

Originally by: Gamesguy

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I would love higher mineral prices. I want to see 110mil ravens again, whats wrong with that exactly

---

Originally by: Gamesguy

---

but f*cking deal.

---

Originally by: Malcanis

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The core issue is that when someone is grinding L4s in this way, they're not leaving me alone. They're driving up the price of fancy faction items I want to buy. They're driving down the price of minerals and salvage I want to sell. They're funding pirates who want to gank my blockade runner. They're supporting alliances I want to crush beneath my heel. And worst of all, they're trashing the price of LP store goods that I want to sell after I run missions.

---

Originally by: Mara Rinn

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Edited by: Mara Rinn on 29/08/2008 01:54:50

Originally by: Malcanis

---

The core issue is that when someone is grinding L4s in this way, they're not leaving me alone. They're driving up the price of fancy faction items I want to buy. They're driving down the price of minerals and salvage I want to sell. They're funding pirates who want to gank my blockade runner. They're supporting alliances I want to crush beneath my heel. And worst of all, they're trashing the price of LP store goods that I want to sell after I run missions.

---

To paraphrase: nerf everyone else's playstyle because it cramps my own.

What use is an economy without competitors? What use is a blockade runner without blockades? Should CCP start planting NPCs who will buy your LP store goods at inflated prices, or should you adapt your industry to make a profit where there is a profit to be made?

It's all about risk vs reward. There is little risk in mission-running, and the rewards are naturally scaling to reflect the low risk. Welcome to a player-driven economy in a player-versus-player environment. There's no need to adjust the universe to suit your playstyle when it's much easier for your playstyle to adjust to suit the universe.

Adapt or die.

---

Originally by: Opertone

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the industry is backed by carebears and industrialists, local economy can't exist without them

---

Originally by: Opertone

---

the industry is backed by carebears and industrialists, local economy can't exist without them

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Originally by: Johncrab

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All of this coming from a char in a npc corp

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Originally by: Crumplecorn

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NerfBat is now known as the WaveMachine.

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Originally by: Empyre

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Originally by: Gamesguy

---

I would love higher mineral prices. I want to see 110mil ravens again, whats wrong with that exactly

---

In much the same way as the richest 2% of the world want the social divide to be an immeasurable chasm, this makes sense. Scale the prices and you've effectively forced smaller corporations and alliances out of the fight. But I'm guessing that's exactly what the type of thing your alliance would love.

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Originally by: Gamesguy

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Why would my alliance care why the newer players can afford a ship or not?

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Originally by: Johncrab

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Edited by: Johncrab on 29/08/2008 00:26:02

Originally by: Malcanis

---

---

All of this coming from a char in a npc corp is, to say the least, a contradiction.
Oh, and 0.0 is full of farming carebears. How do 0.0 alliances fund their super capitals...? From looting in pvp it isn't that's for sure

---

Originally by: Opertone

---

the industry is backed by carebears and industrialists, local economy can't exist without them

---

Originally by: Empyre

---

Oh look. Yet another L4 mission nerf whine. Just how do L4 mission runners effect the price of faction goods, pray tell?

---

Originally by: Dharmic Vision

---

Personally, I would welcome these changes, but only if any rare mineral moons were added at the ass-end of the new regions, to make them a challenge for a single entity to control. Right now, my understanding is that these are the targets of war-- which is great, gives market incentive to fight, but the short distances quoted by Malcanis make it too easy to establish and maintain control of them.

For NPC goods such as Robotics, why not add an upgrade platform available for Outposts to allow production of these goods? Hell, you could add this as a rare BPC drop from exploration plexes or officers or something. You could add another outpost upgrade drop that allows for limited skill production-- remember, these aren't actually books but things you stick into your capsuleer implants and passively absorb. Someone's gonna crack this system and figure out how to create bootleg copies. But only a certain number per day, or one category at a time, or both. Would help ease the need to hop back and forth and make Outpost upgrades meaningful.

One thing to keep in mind is that expanding Eve in this way would inevitably affect mineral and component availability throughout New Eden. If a significant proportion of players moves out to take advantage of the new regions, removing them from the local economy will have its impact on highsec. The challenges of populating such an area would particularly bleed off people interested in logistical challenges, perhaps impacting the ability of more local organizations to maintain their own moon mining operations. If you separate the markets by distance, there WOULD be other effects just from the exodus of people.

I get the impression that not too many people have memories stretching back past the last couple of weeks. What I'm reading here isn't a response to the CONCORD changes and stuff, it is an extension of concepts that Malcanis has posted on before in light of those changes.

To the guy accusing him of being in an npc corp, look at his employment record, lots of deep space and lowsec alliance work. He's in between employers now. I've often enjoyed reading his posts, they are usually well thought out.

---

Originally by: Mara Rinn

---

Edited by: Mara Rinn on 29/08/2008 01:54:50

Originally by: Malcanis

---

The core issue is that when someone is grinding L4s in this way, they're not leaving me alone. They're driving up the price of fancy faction items I want to buy. They're driving down the price of minerals and salvage I want to sell. They're funding pirates who want to gank my blockade runner. They're supporting alliances I want to crush beneath my heel. And worst of all, they're trashing the price of LP store goods that I want to sell after I run missions.

---

To paraphrase: nerf everyone else's playstyle because it cramps my own.

---

Originally by: Malcanis

---

Correct indeed, but not all of them require hi-sec to operate.

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Originally by: Clair Bear

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Originally by: Malcanis

---

Originally by: Opertone

---

Correct indeed, but not all of them require hi-sec to operate.

---

Lion's share of R&D agents is in highsec. A portion of NPC goods required to manufacture warp bubbles and t2 (including fuel for POS operation) come from highsec. Massive amounts of low ends and ice come from AFK miners in highsec.

At the moment all of eve is tied at the hip to high sec. You only need to look at market prices in 0.0 to see how well carebears function out here -- it took literally a WEEK for a manufacturing corp to turn into 100% ratters.

---

You'll perhaps note that my proposal included lo-sec islands to supply NPC only goods like skillbooks. In any case, the "lots more 0.0" proposal was not the main point of my post. The request for better proposals was.

CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.

Originally by: Tuleingel

---

Interesting idea. Especially that long distances lightyears wise to the 'deep regions'. Might actually work out even, say, if you add into each region one NPC controlled consellation (it does not need to be lo sec) with stations selling skillbooks and NPC POS fuels, altho it would actually work out without that also.

You see, seeding those NPC goods in 0.0 would go against current model, where main hardship of holding 0.0 space is logistical. Anyway, whatever way it would be implemented new regions would soon be dominated by already exsisting well organized entities with rather nice jump bridge chains running all the way up to empire/their current power bases.

What we actually would need would be possibility of getting agents in 0.0 stations. Whatever way it would be implemented. Say - to get agent into your station it would need to allow everyone dock and your alliance would need to declare support for one empire faction. That empire would then dispatch some agents from one special corp to that station. In ideal world 'declaring support' would not be limited to empire factions but would actually involve also pirate and minor factions and station you want to have agents in would go into possession of said 'special' corp (so you can't just lock out 'other people' by one click) with proper timers in place should the sov entitiy want to take station back (say a week, if they are kicking the declared faction out, taking significant standings hit or month for 'peaceful' reclaiming of station without standings hit).

---

Originally by: Malcanis

---

For reasons you can probably infer, I'm a little gun-shy of introducing agents into the new space proposal. I'd far rather have a higher density of exploration sites.

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Originally by: Tuleingel

---

Originally by: Malcanis

---

For reasons you can probably infer, I'm a little gun-shy of introducing agents into the new space proposal. I'd far rather have a higher density of exploration sites.

---

We would not need any new space if it would be possible to get agents in already exsisting no sec space. It would work even if one would need to actually build some special station for 'allied' NPC entity to get agents. Say, 100 bil for 'special' station and turning one system over to NPC's sov. Permanently. Would work as standard NPC station. If idea of having ability to 'summon' agents to station going temporarily into NPC ownership seems too radical.

---

Originally by: Malcanis

---

We would not need any new space if it would be possible to get agents in already exsisting no sec space. It would work even if one would need to actually build some special station for 'allied' NPC entity to get agents. Say, 100 bil for 'special' station and turning one system over to NPC's sov. Permanently. Would work as standard NPC station. If idea of having ability to 'summon' agents to station going temporarily into NPC ownership seems too radical.

---

Originally by: Malcanis

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Originally by: Hegbard

---

Separate currency. Not spendable in empire, only exchangeable through direct contact between players in stations. For an added bonus: allow players to start their own currencies backed any way they want (although that would require a bit more work from CCP).

A separate currency would decouple the markets. While not making it completely impossible to trade between empire and 0.0, it would make it harder enough to encourage local markets. And it would be interesting too.

---

AKA LPs.

---

Originally by: Malcanis

---

I'm not asking for a nerf to hi-sec - I'm asking to be able to not care about hi-sec.

If there's anything you dislike about that, then let's hear it.

---

Originally by: Hegbard

---

Originally by: Malcanis

---

Originally by: Hegbard

---

Separate currency. Not spendable in empire, only exchangeable through direct contact between players in stations. For an added bonus: allow players to start their own currencies backed any way they want (although that would require a bit more work from CCP).

A separate currency would decouple the markets. While not making it completely impossible to trade between empire and 0.0, it would make it harder enough to encourage local markets. And it would be interesting too.

---

AKA LPs.

---

Not really. LPs are not tradeable and you can exchange them to ISK only through a lot of hassle.

I mean that there would be normal markets in 0.0, but instead of using ISK they would be using NISK (Null ISK or whatever). So on all markets in 0.0 you could buy and sell stuff for NISK, but not for ISK. And the only way to exchange NISK to ISK would be to personally meet with someone and trade face-to-face or do normal money transfers that you can do today, but then you'd have to trust the person. Could even make it interesting and set up automatic currency trading stations only in lowsec.

Or one currency per region. Or as I mentioned earlier: player run currencies, with all the drama, collapsing banks and scams it would bring (and huge profits for some).

When there is one currency, there is no way to separate the markets, even long and dangerous trade routes wouldn't change much. But imagine what would happen if people in nullsec suddenly didn't need ISK at all and all the interesting minerals from nullsec were suddenly traded in NISK.

---

Originally by: Malcanis

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Originally by: Hegbard

---

Separate currency. Not spendable in empire, only exchangeable through direct contact between players in stations. For an added bonus: allow players to start their own currencies backed any way they want (although that would require a bit more work from CCP).

A separate currency would decouple the markets. While not making it completely impossible to trade between empire and 0.0, it would make it harder enough to encourage local markets. And it would be interesting too.

---

AKA LPs.

---

Quote:

---

... Are You Watching Closely?

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Originally by: Sheriff Jones

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Originally by: Malcanis

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I'm not asking for a nerf to hi-sec - I'm asking to be able to not care about hi-sec.

If there's anything you dislike about that, then let's hear it.

---

Well, mainly, that when i said "i'm not saying i dn't want player interaction, but i want the choice to do missions in peace", i think your answer was in the boundries of "go to wow".

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Originally by: Reven Cordelle

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I'm not saying "nerf gatecamps". Camps are fine, its just a bit of a shit for anyone just trying to get out there for the first time.

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Originally by: Gamesguy

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Not possible, people would just use a mineral as a unit of exchange, like we did historically with precious metals, ie gold and silver.

The only way a non-backed currency would work is if there is enormous confidence in the government. 0.0 is soo volatile in eve that it makes Somalia look stable, currency in this kind of climate would be worthless, only tangible materials like gold, bushels of wheat, pigs, whatever would have value. So in eve, this would mean people would trade with ships minerals etc.

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Originally by: Reven Cordelle

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I'm not saying "nerf gatecamps". Camps are fine, its just a bit of a shit for anyone just trying to get out there for the first time.

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Originally by: FlameGlow

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Originally by: Reven Cordelle

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I'm not saying "nerf gatecamps". Camps are fine, its just a bit of a shit for anyone just trying to get out there for the first time.

---

No, gatecamps are OP in low since HIC introduction.
In 0.0 it's probably OP since cynojammers.
Blockade runner supposedly made to run through camps yet it's warpstab bonus is utterly useless in most cases and it has to rely on great agility only.

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Originally by: PhalHell

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I like the idea of a "dessert". Hard to live in, nothing there (no Gates, stations or whatsoever), everything changes (wormholes etc...) on a regular base.
You can't claim it.
It should be an area of great reward, where you need to explore every move.
The fact that no sov-claim can be made or any regularity is there will eliminate blobs too.
In that area nothing would show on your overview neither etc....

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Originally by: Maximillian Bayonette

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Edited by: Maximillian Bayonette on 29/08/2008 12:28:08

Originally by: PhalHell

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I like the idea of a "dessert". Hard to live in, nothing there (no Gates, stations or whatsoever), everything changes (wormholes etc...) on a regular base.
You can't claim it.
It should be an area of great reward, where you need to explore every move.
The fact that no sov-claim can be made or any regularity is there will eliminate blobs too.
In that area nothing would show on your overview neither etc....

---

Dessert? Hahaha

Pastry Coalition? HahahahaHAHAHAHAH

Man, that's just too good!

---

Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf

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I can see the jump freighter trade caravans bringing hi-sec devaluation of your efforts already.

Moving the tumor to your big toe will not get rid of the cancer.

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Originally by: Crumplecorn

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Originally by: Sheriff Jones

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Originally by: Malcanis

---

I'm not asking for a nerf to hi-sec - I'm asking to be able to not care about hi-sec.

If there's anything you dislike about that, then let's hear it.

---

Well, mainly, that when i said "i'm not saying i dn't want player interaction, but i want the choice to do missions in peace", i think your answer was in the boundries of "go to wow".

---

You are trying to equate asking for pure PvP and pure PvP. I think you will find that these requests are in fact diametrically opposed.

The option to engage in pure PvE, an option which does not truly exist at present, goes against EVE. The option to engage in pure PvP does not.

---

Originally by: Hegbard

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Originally by: Malcanis

---

Originally by: Hegbard

---

Separate currency. Not spendable in empire, only exchangeable through direct contact between players in stations. For an added bonus: allow players to start their own currencies backed any way they want (although that would require a bit more work from CCP).

A separate currency would decouple the markets. While not making it completely impossible to trade between empire and 0.0, it would make it harder enough to encourage local markets. And it would be interesting too.

---

AKA LPs.

---

Not really. LPs are not tradeable and you can exchange them to ISK only through a lot of hassle.

I mean that there would be normal markets in 0.0, but instead of using ISK they would be using NISK (Null ISK or whatever). So on all markets in 0.0 you could buy and sell stuff for NISK, but not for ISK. And the only way to exchange NISK to ISK would be to personally meet with someone and trade face-to-face or do normal money transfers that you can do today, but then you'd have to trust the person. Could even make it interesting and set up automatic currency trading stations only in lowsec.

Or one currency per region. Or as I mentioned earlier: player run currencies, with all the drama, collapsing banks and scams it would bring (and huge profits for some).

When there is one currency, there is no way to separate the markets, even long and dangerous trade routes wouldn't change much. But imagine what would happen if people in nullsec suddenly didn't need ISK at all and all the interesting minerals from nullsec were suddenly traded in NISK.

---

Originally by: Sheriff Jones

---

Originally by: Malcanis

---

I'm not asking for a nerf to hi-sec - I'm asking to be able to not care about hi-sec.

If there's anything you dislike about that, then let's hear it.

---

Well, mainly, that when i said "i'm not saying i dn't want player interaction, but i want the choice to do missions in peace", i think your answer was in the boundries of "go to wow".

---

Originally by: Ankhesentapemkah

---

okay an idea for the pile.

not actually thought it out, it just popped up in my head and I'm too tired now to actually think if this is good or bad, so you decide.

scattered regions, not connected with stargates.

randomly (random system, random location, random open duration, sometimes they have to be scanned out to be even detectable), wormholes pop up giving access to and from the isolated regions.

how's that?

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Originally by: Malcanis

---

To be blunt, I wish the missionbears would go back to WoW, and I neither deny nor apologise for that. But it's not going to happen, and I'm not pretending it will or trying to make it come about. So I'm trying to come up with a way of living with them.

---

Originally by: Sheriff Jones

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Originally by: Malcanis

---

To be blunt, I wish the missionbears would go back to WoW, and I neither deny nor apologise for that. But it's not going to happen, and I'm not pretending it will or trying to make it come about. So I'm trying to come up with a way of living with them.

---

But you do understand that it would be like someone saying "i wish those pirates would go to counterstrike". It's not really nice, nor constructive, nor even "a good thing to suggest"

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Originally by: Marc deBourgogne

---

Dessert? Hahaha

Pastry Coalition? HahahahaHAHAHAHAH

Man, that's just too good!

---

Originally by: Frenden Dax

---

My heart hopes that people aren't that stupid, but my experiences thus far suggest otherwise.

---

Originally by: Malcanis

---

I'm kind of concerned that no-one has contributed a better idea then "really far away".

---

Originally by: Kyra Felann

---

Originally by: Khrillian

---

I'll throw out the obvious option that CCP would never implement - PVE servers and PVP servers. It's what basically every other MMO does to solve this problem.

---

So you're saying you basically support destroying one of the core concepts of Eve? Eve is not "every other MMO" and that's why I play Eve.

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Originally by: Khrillian

---

Originally by: Kyra Felann

---

Originally by: Khrillian

---

I'll throw out the obvious option that CCP would never implement - PVE servers and PVP servers. It's what basically every other MMO does to solve this problem.

---

So you're saying you basically support destroying one of the core concepts of Eve? Eve is not "every other MMO" and that's why I play Eve.

---

In empire, you can fly around and never engage in pvp, except once in awhile you used to get blown up by a disco apoc outside of Jita or you were dumb and put too much in your badger. I don't really see what this adds to the game.

---

Originally by: Malcanis

---

Let's triple it [0.0 space] in size... Basically, I envision areas of 0.0 so far from empire that even with cap ships and jump freighters, it's still worthwhile developing a local economy rather than importing stuff from empire.

---

Originally by: 5pinDizzy

---

I'll tell you something that I was thinking about tonight if you want an idea.

The main problem with making level 4's challenging or interesting again is no matter how you try to add risk for the 10 billion isk faction battleships that are built to tank the dps of the entire room in every level 4 that exists twice over, you hurt the not so experienced and well equipped BS players and maybe make it next to impossible for them.

So I think add a new factor to level 4 agents.

Have a climbing ladder not just in agent quality, but agent difficulty.

Even if they are all level 4, have hard level 4 agents, and easier level 4 agents.

If your ship does better in missions, you rise to the harder level 4 agents and the easier ones won't give you missions any more. Unless you fail a few certain times and you drop back down again.

Something to work with, no?

Another idea was also thinking about maybe adding ships that scramble other then frigates, maybe scrambling cruisers and battlecruisers too.

---

Originally by: Iyhi Baal

---

Geessss ... can we get past the nerf mission slogans. No ones buying it.

The reason no one is buying it is because it does not make sense.

Fallacy number 1. Mission hubs cause lag.
Perhaps they do -- in the system that they exist in but in general they don't affect the vast majority of systems or game play for the majority of eve players. Simple solution-- stay out of the mission hubs and you will have no lag.

Fallacy number 2. Mission runner deflate ore and salvage prices.
Look, the universe of Eve was never intended to be such that everywhere was the local market. The dirt cheap prices inside empire represent the abundance of goods and the weakness of demand. If you live outside empire then that is your market. You pay the difference to make up for the risk that I take on to bring goods to market. If you are in a null sec alliance you should never have to trek back. Doing so only hurts your alliance. The absence of a local market in alliance held territory is the hallmark of a poorly managed alliance.

Fallacy number 3. Inflation caused by mission runners devalue faction gear farmed outside empire.
Again, one has to ask the question, why are you bring this stuff back to empire. If you are in an alliance then you are just weakening your alliance, depriving them of a tactical advantage while weakening the idea of a local market. If no one has use for the gear then stop farming it (kinda solves 2 problems at once). If they are a vital resource then it give the other alliances an incentive to take the region. Either way, a person in empire with lots of isk and nothing great to buy has little incentive to keep doing missions. There are better aspects to the game to play once you have satisfied your need for isk.
Fallacy number 4.Mission runners are unassialbe.
There exist several mechanisms for players to "interact" with other players. The war dec exist. If you are willing to pay the price you can sucide them. You don't have to patron the empire markets -- force the salvage to come to you as it were. At a certian point the diminshed returns of empire PVE will force ppl to leave as there are more interesting things to do else where.

The funny thing is that for ppl that pride themselves in adapting to the sandbox you are all doing alot of whining directed at the Devs. Personally, I find Eve to be a wonderful game full of possibliites waiting to be explored. Imagine using some of your PVP muscle to guard and foster commerce while at the same time attacking the supply in "different" regions away from your home.

We collectively have the power to shape Eve anyway we want. Sure it take a little extra work. But the payoff is the continuation of a game that attracted you in the first place because it refused to spoon feed you entertainment with no thinking required.

Or you can go back to whining for an irration change that "ain't gonna happen" because you are ****ed that the devs as signaled the willingness to nerf 2 relatively riskless behaviors for the good of the community.

the choice, as always, is yours

---

Originally by: Bart Mag

---

i allways wonder how short sighted someone can be.
Who do you think will pay for eve when all theses carebears are back to wow?
You and your handfull of pirate friends?

Its allways the self imposed hardcore pvp crowd thats crying the loudest about what others have to do and how eve is supposed to be played.

maybe you just didn¦t realize that the times where eve was centered around pvp are gone?
maybe CCP realized that more money can be made with carebears then pvpers?
What do you want to do?
Adapt or die?

can i have your eye patch?

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Originally by: Malcanis

---

Who will pay for EvE when the carebears find the next game to move on to?

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Originally by: Sheriff Jones

---

Originally by: Malcanis

---

Who will pay for EvE when the carebears find the next game to move on to?

---

Well, some of us don't.

Ever.

Have been here from the beginning, MOST carebears i dare say are Amarr, 'cause we weren't that "efficient" in combat. So we looked for alternate options. Though we managed to live through that whole combat thing too.

I never trust a caldari saying missions are too easy, you were born for it

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Originally by: Malcanis

---

I just find it rather ironic to be told to "adapt or die" by someone who implies that he'd quit EvE if he had an iota less protection from CCP. Not much long term commitment there, but he wants CCP to base their future plans on people like him, rather than the "obselete" PvPers who have played for years even when times where tough for their race.

And hey Amaar and Caldari ships are pretty good in PvP atm. In fact I think the races are extremely well balanced right now.

---

Originally by: Sheriff Jones

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Yes, adapt or die is a widely used, not really important line. Excuse like the rest "eve is pvp", or "concensual when you log in". You know, one liners like "cake is a lie" with little merit.

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Originally by: Sheriff Jones

---

Hope you got my point though, Amarr and Caldari weren't(in past) THAT good at PVP(ironic regarding basestory), but we managed through the rough times and are coming back.

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Originally by: Sheriff Jones

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I'm justtrying to keep a wide spectrum into the discussion, because i find that be it a beta-player, 2005, 2008, yesterday, we all are equal in the "what should be changed" scale and no change should come from "i want" section

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Originally by: Maximillian Bayonette

---

Eve IS pvp, and it IS consentual when you log in. Those aren't your typical oneliners. They are just short statements of truth. I hope this isn't being questioned as well, because if it is, the Eve community have taken more steps backwards than I thought possible.

Amarr and Caldari 'managed' through the "rough times" by continuously whining for change. That's now the set standard for 'managing' through anything in Eve. Welcome to the brave new world.

Yes, we are all equal, in theory. However, not in practice. The recent year has shown us just how equal Empire pvpers and low sec pirates really are.

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Originally by: Sheriff Jones

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First, still a useless line(used to make an easy "i win" comment) as it contributes nothing.

---

Originally by: Sheriff Jones

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Second, some did, most just plowed through and played with what they had.

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Originally by: Sheriff Jones

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Third, not the point, point was in making changes has to be equal.

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Originally by: Iyhi Baal

---

how about this then...
stop trying to fix what ain't broke. Your solution addresses a problem that does not exist.

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Originally by: Astria Tiphareth

---

Despite my intense dislike of Malcanis' style of posting, not least the sweeping generalisations, I really like this idea.

[troll]
That said, in the spirit of forum PvP I would like to think I've claimed as my role the 'live and let live' approach as a new upstart in the forums, so go back to being obnoxious and unpleasant Malcanis, I can't cope with this new pleasant approach! I can no longer lump you in with Ki An and co! How can the bitter vets suddenly be pleasant, I ask you, that's our new player role smashed...
[/troll]

Ok, time to be serious, and actually I never did most of the above, it just felt too good to delete in some sort of cathartic way

I have always thought of empire as a breeding ground, a place to grow, to retreat back to when things get hard, and the real EVE is out there in 0.0. Unfortunately as you say, it becomes quite difficult to separate 0.0 when there's this great deal in empire.

I see only one way of achieving this, and this is something CCP touched on a long time ago. Open the New Eden gate. A new vast tract of empty space, 0.0 space, entirely separate and clamped off from the current EVE down to a single (or maybe we can get clever and have someone build two) gate. On top of that, not only is this space separate, but the currency is as well. That way, you can't fund this new experience from empire alts. Instead, any money transfers, well you're going to have at least go fly through the supergate and then transfer it, after duly having your passport stamped by CONCORD and gone through currency exchange where that blonde behind the till just took 5% commission... Yes it'd get gatecamped to hell, these one or two transit points, and that's a good thing. I'd even suggest NPC pirates turn up in force if real pirates aren't busy blowing stuff up with abandon. Making going through these gates a difficult task, but not impossible.

Ironically, at first glance, this is just sharding the server under a new name, but no it isn't. It does separate the market, it does separate the players, but not entirely. I can see groups disappearing into the gates and then months later new and vastly powerful alliances issuing from the superportal in an oh-so-Stargate-esque manner, giving the current 0.0 players a headache and dramatically changing the balance of power. I see new super-alliance power-blocks determining the fate of entire galaxies, I see in short what EVE should be all about.

EVE has grown to the point where the bigger blocks find themselves cramped, where empire is inextricably linked to 0.0. Vets yearn for the old days where space was bigger, there were fewer people about, well a vast new area of space gives it to them. I for one am not ready for that vision, but by god I will be.

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Originally by: Astria Tiphareth

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Originally by: Malcanis

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Your idea is better in all ways than mine, bar a single proviso - a single entrance to the new space would almost instantly become an insurmountable barrier. At the very least, both sides of the New Eden gate would have to be lo-sec.

Which, actually, mightn't be a bad thing - individual players couldn't jump through with anything more than they can carry in a fast frigate.

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We could postulate that if CCP give the empires or some suitable faction the technology to restore a link to another galaxy, they could do it more than once. You could easily end up with several highways, and yes I agree, they should in a combination of low-sec or null-sec. I appreciate the compliment by the way.

Originally by: Malcanis

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Incidentally, as far as your surprise at my posting style goes, try reading back a couple of years. See if you can work out what has changed and make a guess why. If you can guess correctly first time, there's a prize.

(Yes, a real prize. Hate me or loathe me, you'll never find anyone who can assert that I've ever lied.)

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If the search on the forums worked well enough, I'd give it a go, but currently I have a small mountain of things on a 'to-do' pile that will have to come first . Perhaps someone else will beat me to it.

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Originally by: Malcanis

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I'm kind of concerned that no-one has contributed a better idea then "really far away".

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Originally by: Roy Batty68

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Originally by: Malcanis

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I'm kind of concerned that no-one has contributed a better idea then "really far away".

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Here's mine then:

It begins with NPC corperations (with the exception of the FW corps). They must be nerfed. Hard. ..

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Originally by: Malcanis

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My desire is to find a way to insulate myself from hi-sec. I'm writing it off. I no longer believe it can be salvaged as a worthwhile component of the game I wish to play.

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Originally by: Malcanis

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Now as such, if someone is crazy enough to want to do nothing more in EvE than to endlessly grind the extremely sub-par PvE content, I say more power to them.

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Quote:

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The core issue is that when someone is grinding L4s in this way, they're not leaving me alone. They're driving up the price of fancy faction items I want to buy. They're driving down the price of minerals and salvage I want to sell. They're funding pirates who want to gank my blockade runner. They're supporting alliances I want to crush beneath my heel. And worst of all, they're trashing the price of LP store goods that I want to sell after I run missions.

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Quote:

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Now frankly, as far as I am concerned: screw hi-sec. I don't like it. It's boring and crowded and bad men instapop my ship just for innocently accidentally shooting non-blues. You guys are welcome to it - all I want from there is skillbooks and low-priced T2.

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Quote:

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So help me out here: if you can think of suggestions for making hi-sec basically irrelevent to my 0.0 lifestyle, we can talk about them, refine them and put them forward as a proposal that the majority can support.

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Originally by: Death Cry

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Edited by: Death Cry on 30/08/2008 12:52:58
o/
Obviously mal got married or had a recent addition to family?? (without reading anything but this post)
Astria and mal (a single jump with what u can carry in your frig...) OUTSTANDING idea..wow ... combined with Eomar's idea of abandoned stations in new region...so that teamwork would be neccesary to rebuild...restart.... so much creativity in eve players

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Originally by: Mara Rinn

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You cannot escape the relevance of hisec. You have to find ways to make hisec work for you. Buy orders for the stuff you want (there's got to be an alliance member somewhere who will bring stuff back on their next hisec hauling run, for a small fee). Contacts with newbie corps who are looking to get a toe in on the nullsec action. You know, play the whole game, not just the blowing-ships-up bit.

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Originally by: Mara Rinn

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In EVE, you change to suit game!

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Originally by: Roy Batty68

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Originally by: Malcanis

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My desire is to find a way to insulate myself from hi-sec. I'm writing it off. I no longer believe it can be salvaged as a worthwhile component of the game I wish to play.

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Well, about the only way to do that would be to buff lowsec and 0.0 to the point of making hisec look like the ghettos and make it's existance meaningless or unnecessary to life in 0.0. That would actually be a shame for two major reasons:

1) As it is now, all space, from 1.0 to 0.0, is symbiotic in nature. Hisec needs 0.0 about as much as 0.0 needs hisec. People in 0.0 use people in hisec to do the grunt work - from farming the lowends and ice for them to isk farming for them so the 0.0 only loot drops have high value.

If 0.0 was buffed to the point where it wasn't worth the logistics effort of making trips to hisec, I think the game would lose quite a bit in regards to unforseen symptoms much like the cons that came out of WTZ. For instance, if people no longer feel the need to shuttle back and forth between 0.0 and hisec, camping the entry gates becomes even more boring as the rate of usage on those gates drop drastically. Those sorts of symptomatic player activity changes.


2) ISK faucets to sinks ratio would probably be even more out of control than it probably is now.



One thing that I think alot of players fail to take into account is that the Cost of Living in Eve has changed over time as well. When Venkul Mul (sorry if mispelled) drops into these threads to tell us that level 4 mission running has indeed been nerfed over time, he is right to an extent. LP rewards have indeed lost quite a bit of value and there have been other nerfs to the isk output of mission running.

However, while these changes have been happening, other things have been introduced that has raised the relative value of isk over time. The drone regions have screwed up the value progression of minerals and one symptom of that has been the general lowering of ship costs. The playerbase growing and making for more and more competition in the industrial market has probably been a factor in that as well.

I don't believe that suicide ganking had anything about it change drastically besides the cost of ships compared to their insurance payout. Why the hell is that even possible? Why isn't there some dynamic mechanism in place to guard against that situation?

Also invention decreased the cost of living in alot of ways. T2 items in general have had a drastic decrease in end isk cost.

Throw on top of that the 0.0 sovereignty wars causing people to spam POS everywhere and in effect causing a lowering in value of moon minerals adding to the overall situation of decreased general cost.


So it is my theory that the Cost of Living in Eve has decreased majorly in the past two years, and while mission running may have been nerfed several times already, it is actually increased in relative value in regards to time spent versus isk necessary to compete in Eve.

So the only thing left to be answered on that front is whether or not that situation is overall a bad thing or not.

People have complained in the past that pvp in eve is too expensive. Was it? Is it too cheap now? What's the diagnosis? When comparing the output of level 4 missions, is it too high in comparison to the "cost of pvp"? Those are the real questions to be asking.


And to be perfectly honest, I don't have a clue. But I can't help but feel like there are alot of dynamic mechanisms that are missing from Eve somehow. I'm just not smart enough to work out what they should be.

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Originally by: Roy Batty68

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Originally by: Malcanis

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I'm kind of concerned that no-one has contributed a better idea then "really far away".

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Here's mine then:

It begins with NPC corperations (with the exception of the FW corps). They must be nerfed. Hard. No one who is of a mind to make as much isk as they can in hisec should be attracted to the NPC corporations.

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Originally by: Mara Rinn

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Originally by: Roy Batty68

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Originally by: Malcanis

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I'm kind of concerned that no-one has contributed a better idea then "really far away".

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Here's mine then:

It begins with NPC corperations (with the exception of the FW corps). They must be nerfed. Hard. No one who is of a mind to make as much isk as they can in hisec should be attracted to the NPC corporations.

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FWIW, I mostly agree with this sentiment. The nerf NPC corps discussion is not the topic of this thread though.

Malcanis's original complaint was that there are too many people in hisec running missions, competing in the same market that he is in. I don't see that nerfing NPC corps is going to help make hisec "irrelevant" to Malcanis's playstyle.

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Originally by: Mara Rinn

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FWIW, I mostly agree with this sentiment. The nerf NPC corps discussion is not the topic of this thread though.

Malcanis's original complaint was that there are too many people in hisec running missions, competing in the same market that he is in. I don't see that nerfing NPC corps is going to help make hisec "irrelevant" to Malcanis's playstyle.

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Originally by: Roy Batty68

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I could be wrong... It's happened before.

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Originally by: Malcanis

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Originally by: Roy Batty68

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I could be wrong... It's happened before.

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Surely not...

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Originally by: Sarin Adler

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Edited by: Sarin Adler on 30/08/2008 14:35:19
Flawed logic on all the 'nerf hisec' crybabies:

1) Hypothesis: They are affecting the economy.
2) They earn too much isk.
3) But they do not spend them.
4) Because according to crybabies, they do not pewpew and do not lose ships/equipment ( do not cotnribute to economy).
5) Hence, they amass iskies which are not being injected into the economy.
6) So indeed they are not affecting economy.

But it could be that indeed they lose (destroy) equipment, and need the money to replace it. Also there may be a lot casual players that actually are not generating so much isk/minerals.

Also it can be that these guys earning money are paying GTCs with isks to mantein hundreads of alts, which are bough by people who burns iskies fast (probably cause they pewpew). Also they spend isk on high-end stuff (billions) from people who pewpew and burns the isk. So directlly or indirectlly they are contributing to economy.

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But what about loot/salvage.
- EVE economy is like this: ISK printing (PvE activities: bounties, mission rewards, insurance payout) + materials (raw ore being mined + loot; moon minerals, salvage materials; BPC/BPO from NPCs) get injected into the system. If you print too much isk and little materials isk will drop value fast; the other way around and the ISK value will raise.

There is an optimal point were CCP want ISK value, so they tweak (they have been doing for years, missions get continually tweaked on loot tables & salvage + bounty prices); this value probably has to do with the fact that people BUY GTC amongt other things.

This has to be balanced althogether with the isk sinks (taxes, insurance when ship is not destroyed, etc.) + goods destroyer (ships being blown up). Fact is CCP has all the data recorded from the servers activity: average missions that are run-an-hour, isk generated, minerals that enter the market; goods that are being destroyed, etc. So instead of all that people talking abotu stuff they don't know and data they don't have, let CCP do their job because they actually can figure things much better than you & me can, amongst other things because they have all the data you and me do not.

In definitive, stop using flawed arguments and fix your perception of the game.

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Originally by: Malcanis

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Oh, and if you're going to call me "melodramatic" for asking for an expansion of available space so that I can do my thing and you can do your, what would you call the many, many people who have said "NERFING MISSIONS WILL KILL EVE BECAUSE 80% OF THE PLAYERS WILL LEAVE!!!!111eleventyBBQ"?

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Originally by: Malcanis

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Tell that to the people who've spent the last year crying for PvP nerfs. And got their way.

Meanwhile, I am adapting. I'm using their tactic.

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Originally by: Drunk Driver

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Originally by: Malcanis

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Tell that to the people who've spent the last year crying for PvP nerfs. And got their way.

Meanwhile, I am adapting. I'm using their tactic.

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You do realize you just admitted to my claim that this is nothing more than a pirate revenge thread don't you?





.

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Originally by: Sarin Adler

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First, apologies, I'm not an habitual of this threads, they are boring and a waste of time usually.

So you think they are affecting the economy in a way they shouldn't. Fair enough, but have you though that CCP does not care a single bit? Maybe this 'status quo' is better for them becuase this how the game has turned to be.

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Originally by: Malcanis

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Taking them out of NPC corps a per Roy's suggestions makes them run the (minimal) risk of war-deccing. It's not much, but it's something.

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Originally by: Malcanis

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Originally by: Sarin Adler

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First, apologies, I'm not an habitual of this threads, they are boring and a waste of time usually.

So you think they are affecting the economy in a way they shouldn't. Fair enough, but have you though that CCP does not care a single bit? Maybe this 'status quo' is better for them becuase this how the game has turned to be.

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Er, yes, I have thought that. That's the basis of the thread.

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Originally by: Tuleingel

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Originally by: Malcanis

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Taking them out of NPC corps a per Roy's suggestions makes them run the (minimal) risk of war-deccing. It's not much, but it's something.

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In ideal world pirates would actually feel the results of being outlaws, corp thieves would be hunted thru EVE and carebears would cry when wardecced. This character is my out of corp wartime hauling alt (1h training for bestower). We (in corp) have also several out of corp freighter alts (one of them in this account). Those alts are anonymous, our members know only the name of character in corp who will then forward the items needed to proper character, no spy can ever know names of those alts as they are never mentioned. Not even between directors. War is mild annoyance in EVE, not something disrupting your logisticks or life, even if you are carebear. In this case meaning the effort of setting up 2 private contracts instead of one to get your stuff moved during war.

NPC corps themselves are not the problem, alts are.

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Originally by: Drunk Driver

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Originally by: Malcanis

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Originally by: Sarin Adler

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First, apologies, I'm not an habitual of this threads, they are boring and a waste of time usually.

So you think they are affecting the economy in a way they shouldn't. Fair enough, but have you though that CCP does not care a single bit? Maybe this 'status quo' is better for them becuase this how the game has turned to be.

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Er, yes, I have thought that. That's the basis of the thread.

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If you read the stuff Malcanis has written in other threads then this thread would make more sense.

It's some sort of forum warfare to screw with Empire to get back at the carebears that live there.

He admitted to it a few posts above.

Malcanis is mad over the suggested security changes.

This is a revenge thread.




.

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Originally by: Drunk Driver

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If you read the stuff Malcanis has written in other threads then this thread would make more sense.

It's some sort of forum warfare to screw with Empire to get back at the carebears that live there.

He admitted to it a few posts above.

Malcanis is mad over the suggested security changes.

This is a revenge thread.

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Originally by: Capot

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wtf is wrong with german opera?

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Originally by: Gonada

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embrace the chaos that is EVE

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