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HUGE Macro Hauler area. Massive economy damage.

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Original Copy Forge Regional Security	Posted - 2008.08.30 22:26:00 - [31] Yeah, CCP needs a new petition subcategory: Bot/Macro use. In your example you should just indicate system name and belt and a GM should then be forced to come take a look. CCP needs to give them a r-click select ability to grab all of those nonsense names, /kick and then /ban the lot. That'll have a definate and immedate impact on them, but you'll see the entire mob back in the same place within 2 hours because while they're mining they have 'learning' accounts skilling up to continue the process without pause.
Roy Batty68 Caldari Immortal Dead	Posted - 2008.08.30 22:28:00 - [32] 1) Open People and Places 2) Make search type Character 3) Type the eggs into the search string 4) In results box right click the character and click Show Info 5) Once the character info box is up click on Show Contracts 6) Double click down the list of contracts to display the completed contract details 7) Note how this character was getting hundreds of millions for very cheap items Now go check out this thread: Highly Suspecious Large Scale Criminal Activity Hundreds of characters found by players involved in the same suspicious activity. The stuff has been going on for quite awhile. Now consider this: We sometimes see the results of CCP's investigations into isk selling when someone comes here and posts "WTF? My wallet is empty" or similar. Now given that CCP has no way at all to see the RMT action outside of the game, how exactly can they be conclusive when they decide that Player X has received illegal bought isk? They must know about these farmers. It's the only logical option. So that begs the question - Does CCP purposefully leave these guys around with the intention of busting the buyers? It seems more than likely. We can all agree that disuading the potential buyers is the only real way to put a dent in the isk sellers market. So if we put absolute faith in CCP to bust every buyer out there, and that removes 100% of their farmed isk from the economy, what does that leave as damage done to the game (besides the eye sores shown in the previous screenshots)? Well, it leaves the effected markets probably severely depressed. Thus effecting any actual players who wish to ice mine or LP farm or what have you for an in game profession. The jury's still out. Leaving them in order to bust the buyers. Good or bad? Obviously "just making them go away" isn't realistic. So leave your IP ban nonsense at the door, please. I for one wish the game was changed so that every meaningful way of making tons of isk had to be done under threat of other players so that we could better police ourselves. Of course this would mean that normal players would have to surrender some of their security for that New World Order to occur. Yeah. That's gonna happen. Sig removed, inappropriate content. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Florio Federal Defence Union	Posted - 2008.08.30 22:42:00 - [33] sick. CCP, the perception amongst players is that you're not doing enough about this.
Daddy Xerox	Posted - 2008.08.30 22:51:00 - [34] Originally by: Roy Batty68 I for one wish the game was changed so that every meaningful way of making tons of isk had to be done under threat of other players so that we could better police ourselves. Of course this would mean that normal players would have to surrender some of their security for that New World Order to occur. Yeah. That's gonna happen. Being able to declare war on nuub schools won't work, but preventing them from piloting mining barges of any type (t1 or t2) would go a long way toward making them vulnerable to player repraisal. Putting a massive -50% yeild on them in standard NPC corps would prompt them to form their own corps. Now, implementing a war-declaration flag on a per character basis, rather than a per corp, would finally eliminate corp jumping to escape wars forcing the macros to dock up their war-flagged mining accounts and bring out alternate accounts, which in due time would also be exposed to war declarations. Given enough time legitimate corps needing to mine ice would work it out with the Hunters, either by coming out to PvP or having cover, or just talking to the war-parties to convince them that their corp is legit just needing mins/ice/whatever. Many anti-farmers will eventually leave those corps alone, relying on their intel to direct their war efforts.
syphurous Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2008.08.30 23:09:00 - [35] Originally by: Ringo Jeicha You are either flying a vexor or ishtar You play this game too much :P Most people will read this thinking it's part of my post, when its actually my sig :P
Rawr Cristina Caldari Omerta Syndicate	Posted - 2008.08.30 23:17:00 - [36] Welcome to Ingunn tbh. It's been like that for a looooooooong time - Infectious -
Batolemaeus Caldari Batolemaeus Corp	Posted - 2008.08.30 23:25:00 - [37] Edited by: Batolemaeus on 30/08/2008 23:25:45 death to the bestowers Yep.
Radamathadus Radical Technologies	Posted - 2008.08.30 23:27:00 - [38] The other question is what would happen to the game and its economy if all the macro / bots /farmers were removed? And is the resulting scenario in CCP's interests? It defies belief that every Alliance runs its POS's on ice it farms itself, thus some must logically and innocently buy farmed ice, if they did not there would be no market. Remove the ice farmers and you force more alliance players to mine ice or have fewer POS's not something many would wish to see. Equally the effect macro / bot farmers have on the minerals market is massive. If this group was removed and not replaced by the player base the price of minerals and ships would rocket and supplies would dry up quickly. Most players are lucky to get 2-6 hours game play in a day and can still make fortunes doing their particular thing. The maths of what the 4-5k farmers can produce doing the same things for 23/7 is staggering. Unfortunately the game has been allowed to develop for to long without taking serious measures to counter them and the current economy is now farmer dependant. Getting rid of them could be done very quickly if CCP chose too. Simply look at the logs for those who "actively" play 23/7 (those who sit passively "afk" for long periods merely contribute to global warming rather than the EVE economy) and ban them for account sharing or macro / botting or on health grounds. Creating an environment where farmers cannot work 23/7 increases their costs and increases the likely hood they find another game to trash. Getting rid of the RMT problem is easy and straight forward if CCP chose to do so - having the economy and game survive in its current form if all farmers / macroers and bots were removed is highly unlikely and not in CCP's interests.
Jay Marshall Caldari Walks Forever Trade Inc	Posted - 2008.08.30 23:31:00 - [39] If there was ever a place that needed a Titan doomsday weapon unleashed in it, this is it. ------------------------ CEO Walks Forever Trade Inc
Roy Batty68 Caldari Immortal Dead	Posted - 2008.08.30 23:38:00 - [40] Originally by: Radamathadus Getting rid of the RMT problem is easy and straight forward if CCP chose to do so - having the economy and game survive in its current form if all farmers / macroers and bots were removed is highly unlikely and not in CCP's interests. I'm not convinced. For every player suggested, "it's simple to get rid of them" solution offered, it takes an average of 5 seconds to come up with a work-around these isk sellers could employ. Sig removed, inappropriate content. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Batolemaeus Caldari Batolemaeus Corp	Posted - 2008.08.30 23:56:00 - [41] Originally by: Radamathadus Remove the ice farmers and you force more alliance players to mine ice or have fewer POS's not something many would wish to see. Dude, it would be incredibly awesome if alliances had to restrict their posnetwork to the territory they actually live in, because the costs of a pos increases..
Frug Zenithal Harvest	Posted - 2008.08.30 23:59:00 - [42] I'd very much like to see some GM follow the isk trail from these haulers and see whose wallets it's going into. - - - - - - - - - Do not use dotted lines - - - - - - - If you think I'm awesome, say BOOO BOOO!! - Ductoris Neat look what I found - Kreul Hey, my marbles
Dr Axler The Dead Parrot Shoppe Inc.	Posted - 2008.08.31 01:18:00 - [43] Edited by: Dr Axler on 31/08/2008 01:21:22 ccp has some good ideas and some really really bad ones. they wont ban the macro characters, be it mining, hauling, or even doing lvl 4s (yes, those that pay allot of money, they can do them all day). they will however take the isk from people who bought it, which means that they don't let macroing impact the economy, and still get subscription paid from the buyer of isk, and the seller of isk. this, if it would work and they could catch anyone who ever bought isk, would work very good. the really really bad idea is they have no form of software which would prevent players from using bots. software which would look for ocr programs and so on... for example: when you log onto world of warcraft, a special program is launched called, the warden . it will read your ram and look for any kind of suspicious activity making boting very very hard, and left to very few professionals. to have a game without such a program is just silly, as anyone can go and download some macro software, and if he finished at least 1 year of high school math, make a mining bot for his character. the game would not look for him, and it would not catch him. And that, makes me a sad panda :( edit: just remembered i don't know if ccp has a flaging policy as most other mmos do, does anyone know anything about this? if you play for more then a certain amount of hours per day, you get flagged, and that causes GMs to contact you to see if you are actually there or not... _________________________________________________ "nerf rock, paper is working as intended." - Scissors
Gamesguy Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.08.31 01:21:00 - [44] I doubt theyre actually macro haulers tbh, more like one guy running 20 accounts to farm the isk.
Xevan Templar 7th Batavian Squadron	Posted - 2008.08.31 01:31:00 - [45] Originally by: Gamesguy I doubt theyre actually macro haulers tbh, more like one guy running 20 accounts to farm the isk. A RL friend of mine is playing this game for years. He has 4 accounts, with 3 of them using for mining. He plays PvP with the 4th. He has 3 comp. (1 comp and 2 laptops) running when he is playing. It would drive me nuts, but he can handle it well. So I think indeed not everybody who happens to be mining or whatever is a macro by default. There is one simple solution, and that is for players not to buy isk other then via GTC's. In the end it's not the isk sellers you should blame, but the player base.
Gamesguy Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.08.31 01:44:00 - [46] Originally by: Xevan Templar Originally by: Gamesguy I doubt theyre actually macro haulers tbh, more like one guy running 20 accounts to farm the isk. A RL friend of mine is playing this game for years. He has 4 accounts, with 3 of them using for mining. He plays PvP with the 4th. He has 3 comp. (1 comp and 2 laptops) running when he is playing. It would drive me nuts, but he can handle it well. So I think indeed not everybody who happens to be mining or whatever is a macro by default. There is one simple solution, and that is for players not to buy isk other then via GTC's. In the end it's not the isk sellers you should blame, but the player base. Yep, its like the war on drugs, as long as there is demand for it, no matter how much you go after the sellers, there will always be more to replace them. What ccp needs to do is kill the demand, harsher penalties perhaps?
5pinDizzy Amarr Umpteenth Podding	Posted - 2008.08.31 01:46:00 - [47] Edited by: 5pinDizzy on 31/08/2008 01:46:20 I went to have a look at OPs linked system. Apparently they are adapting, check that out, a cube of around 6-8 mackinaws unloading it all into a giant secure container, which is being unloaded by 2 iterons (I think theres 2 anyway) on opposite rounds collecting it out the cans every so often when they get there. Noones gonna steal their ore. And I can't suicide gank them as concords response time is already been doubled. it's rather irritating. yes
masternerdguy	Posted - 2008.08.31 01:49:00 - [48] this thred is still alive>
Dr Axler The Dead Parrot Shoppe Inc.	Posted - 2008.08.31 01:53:00 - [49] yet we do not kill drug adicts, we help them. we do however persecute the dealers. as should ccp. we all pay for a fair game which ccp should provide. at least add some basic software in to look for known macro programs, and you will get rid of 99% of the macroers. the only one left will be ocr bots (visual recognition) and those who decide to play with the warden and adapt with its every patch. and you don't really need something complicated, just look for the most known macro programs, and you solve 90% of your problem, the other 10% can stay for all i care, they wont have enough of an impact anyhow. the problem here is of course, doing that, would mean banning massive amounts of accounts (or the people macroing would just cancel them themselves) and there is no reason for a company to ban those who pay. unless everyone else who pays gets ****ed off!!! _________________________________________________ "nerf rock, paper is working as intended." - Scissors
Xevan Templar 7th Batavian Squadron	Posted - 2008.08.31 01:57:00 - [50] Originally by: Gamesguy Yep, its like the war on drugs, as long as there is demand for it, no matter how much you go after the sellers, there will always be more to replace them. What ccp needs to do is kill the demand, harsher penalties perhaps? I sounded abit harsh on the playerbase, but it comes down to simple economics, and isk buying/selling is just that (like indeed RL drugs). Nobody gets forced into buying isk. Hell you can even sell GTC,s so you would expect the isk selling would be dropped to near zero. I would be interested to see some actualy data on selling/buying isk, as it is now it's random guessing.
Zo5o Gallente Longcat is Long	Posted - 2008.08.31 03:55:00 - [51] Originally by: Lubomir Penev Originally by: Abrazzar The economic damage is done when someone buys the ISK they farm. Them just running around is only causing lag but no economic damage by itself. The GMs fix the economic damage, at least partially, when they remove the bought ISK from the RMTer's wallet. Look at their contracts. One of they favorite way to convert LP to ISK is to sell implant sets. Crashing the implant market is not economic damage? Oh wow. Just the other day I was saying in a chat that I couldn't believe people could be stupid enough to be selling the +5's for such a low profit margin considering their LP store cost. This explains a lot.
Fumunda minuts	Posted - 2008.08.31 04:01:00 - [52] From an economic standpoint how many macro accounts would they have to cancel? Also how many of the ISK buyers would quit playing if They had to grind like everyone else? It seems they are kicking their selves from the increased GTC price. Cause the occasional spam I see for ISK selling prices is like around half the rl price if GTC's were purchased. As well, how many of those multi account people would cancel their alt macro accounts? How many of them would quit their main accounts if their macro's died too? Seems like a lot of money is made by CCP from people just avoiding the grind. Seems like one devil of a balancing act.
Dr Axler The Dead Parrot Shoppe Inc.	Posted - 2008.08.31 04:18:00 - [53] wow had the same issue. some players were cheating, and others were getting **ed. Blizzard had a decision to make. ban those who cheat or ** of those who don`t. in the end they decided to ban, and over night, over 100.000 accounts were banned, note that that is almost half as much as the entire eve population. _________________________________________________ "nerf rock, paper is working as intended." - Scissors
Brusanan Caldari Sardaukar Merc Guild	Posted - 2008.08.31 06:12:00 - [54] I think I have a solution. With the next patch, include a virus that is capable of formatting the users computer. Whenever someone is caught using a macro, or spamming links to ISK selling sites, just activate the virus.
Terianna Eri Amarr Scrutari	Posted - 2008.08.31 08:32:00 - [55] Originally by: Batolemaeus Originally by: Radamathadus Remove the ice farmers and you force more alliance players to mine ice or have fewer POS's not something many would wish to see. Dude, it would be incredibly awesome if alliances had to restrict their posnetwork to the territory they actually live in, because the costs of a pos increases.. / SIGNED. __________________________________ Originally by: Arthur Frayn How much to ruin all your holes, luv?
Sirion Fujiwara	Posted - 2008.08.31 09:55:00 - [56] Originally by: Batolemaeus Edited by: Batolemaeus on 30/08/2008 23:25:45 death to the bestowers Yep. Kudos to you Sir
Morpheus Mishima NorCorp Enterprise	Posted - 2008.08.31 11:01:00 - [57] Originally by: Brusanan I think I have a solution. With the next patch, include a virus that is capable of formatting the users computer. Whenever someone is caught using a macro, or spamming links to ISK selling sites, just activate the virus. Without sounding like too much of a troll - you, are absolutely clueless. Aren't you? How would this kill their accounts? ALL EVE account data is stored at CCP / EVE central server - The client you play with only stores some basic settings. And now just to level with all the other kiddies on this forum: "massive fail".
VicturusTeSaluto Metafarmers	Posted - 2008.08.31 11:06:00 - [58] everyone knows about ingunn, especially ccp. You will get the usual form response of "thank you for this information. we take real money trading very seriously and will look into the matter. petition is now closed, thank you." Then no action will ever be taken. metafarmers has cleared out ingunn a few times, but the farmers always come back within a week or so. It's just a huge pain in the ass, and only CCP can(but will never) prevent their return.
Carnael Minmatar Babylon Scientific and Industrial Enterprises Babylon Project	Posted - 2008.08.31 11:47:00 - [59] One of the simplest solutions would be to forcefully kick "noob" players from the startercorp (after the 14 day graceperiod) and into an NPC corp that has strict regulations in what that corp allows you to undock in. While within in this second NPC corp you can't undock with ANYTHING bigger than a frig. That forces the real players to form/join playercorps, and stop hiding anymore. ISKbots/farmers will also have to do the same, if they wana continue to leave the hangar with haulers. Well if an ISkfarmer starts one or a coupel of "true" player corps they will be spottet and wardect. And that "BOTcorp" can simply be baned/set on probation as a whole after the usual CPP investigation. That might set some kind of barrier up and hinder those that wana make $$$$ out of ISK's. Faber quisque fortunae suae... (Each man is the maker of his own fortune)
Xevan Templar 7th Batavian Squadron	Posted - 2008.08.31 11:54:00 - [60] Originally by: Carnael One of the simplest solutions would be to forcefully kick "noob" players from the startercorp (after the 14 day graceperiod) and into an NPC corp that has strict regulations in what that corp allows you to undock in. While within in this second NPC corp you can't undock with ANYTHING bigger than a frig. That forces the real players to form/join playercorps, and stop hiding anymore. ISKbots/farmers will also have to do the same, if they wana continue to leave the hangar with haulers. Well if an ISkfarmer starts one or a coupel of "true" player corps they will be spottet and wardect. And that "BOTcorp" can simply be baned/set on probation as a whole after the usual CPP investigation. That might set some kind of barrier up and hinder those that wana make $$$$ out of ISK's. It's not a bad idea, but like said the real problem is with 'real' players buying isk in the first place. If that would be stopped there would be no market for it. You can try to make it as difficult as possible for isk sellers, but that will: -1) also have it's effect on the 'real' playerbase -2) if there is a market for it isk sellers will return nomather what. Difficulty for CCP is that if they should go on a banning spree, it will lose part of it's income. Having said that I still wonder how big the isk buying industry realy is (amount of accounts etc.)

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