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HUGE Macro Hauler area. Massive economy damage.

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Morgan La'Chance Caldari Dynamic Reallocation and Logistics	Posted - 2008.08.31 12:23:00 - [61] Spawn Serpentis Titans in macro hauler systems.
Victor Kruger	Posted - 2008.08.31 14:10:00 - [62] Limit the number of missions a person can do per day. I.e. a limit of 15 missions would not hurt the casual mission runners who do maybe 5-6 then get bored and do something else. Even if people only bliz them, 15 should be more than enough. Also, the macro haulers are around 23/7. A person has to sleep from time to time, so if players are online all the time they must be sharing accounts, which is in turn an Eula violation. Find those accounts, warn them and if they continue to be online 23/7 ban them for account sharing. --------------- Hey, where's my portrait
Kephael Caldari LEAP Corp Ursa Stellar Initiative	Posted - 2008.08.31 14:12:00 - [63] Originally by: Victor Kruger Limit the number of missions a person can do per day. I.e. a limit of 15 missions would not hurt the casual mission runners who do maybe 5-6 then get bored and do something else. Even if people only bliz them, 15 should be more than enough. Also, the macro haulers are around 23/7. A person has to sleep from time to time, so if players are online all the time they must be sharing accounts, which is in turn an Eula violation. Find those accounts, warn them and if they continue to be online 23/7 ban them for account sharing. People go idle all the time, affecting people who are on 23/7 would affect the idlers or sit in systems cloaked, people generally afk in belts, and others.
Victor Kruger	Posted - 2008.08.31 14:20:00 - [64] I was talking about people who are online 23/7 during longer periods (i.e. 3-4 weeks). --------------- Hey, where's my portrait
Roy Batty68 Caldari Immortal Dead	Posted - 2008.08.31 15:52:00 - [65] Originally by: Victor Kruger I was talking about people who are online 23/7 during longer periods (i.e. 3-4 weeks). Easily countered. Make 3-4x as many characters as workers and simply rotate the characters logged on in shifts. Then the 23/7 appearance goes away. Sig removed, inappropriate content. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Loyal Servant Caldari PURE Legion Pure.	Posted - 2008.08.31 15:53:00 - [66] 1. There is a LOT of money by having 5,000+ farmer accounts on at once. They pay - point blank. 2. CCP will never get rid of farmers because they pad the numbers. If statistics took into account the REAL eve playerbase it would be much lower than CCP would want to admit. 3. their isk transactions done via the market, which CCP won't reverse are very safe. 4. CCP continue to nerf players and boost farmers because this segment of the cancer in eve is a very large powerbase, larger than the largest alliances in eve at the moment... so they have a lot of pull. 5. Waiting for CCP to do something that will effect their bottom line? Your going to wait a really long time.
Chr0nosX Ore Mongers	Posted - 2008.08.31 15:57:00 - [67] Leave em alone - I like my Navy throns cheap.
Loyal Servant Caldari PURE Legion Pure.	Posted - 2008.08.31 16:04:00 - [68] Originally by: Chr0nosX Leave em alone - I like my Navy throns cheap. Your right this stuff is really cheap now. What have we seen? ice product is plummeting in price... mission rewards are worthless. lag has tripled. large alliances are cashing out by renting to farmers to fund their war machines... All of this is really bad.
Roy Batty68 Caldari Immortal Dead	Posted - 2008.08.31 16:08:00 - [69] Originally by: Loyal Servant alot of cynical speculation I'm willing to bet that if CCP could advertise something along the lines of, "First MMO to completely erradicate RMT", it would do a hell of alot more for their bottom line. Sig removed, inappropriate content. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Fi Khan Amarr Dawn of Fire Pure.	Posted - 2008.08.31 16:08:00 - [70] This is the single-most reason why I will not be renewing my subscription to Eve. CCP's total lack of ANY presence concerning RMT's and these constellation-wide bot-farming transporting whatever-the-f*ck they feel like doing with repurcussions... Thanks CCP Fly safe.
Roy Batty68 Caldari Immortal Dead	Posted - 2008.08.31 16:16:00 - [71] Originally by: Fi Khan CCP's total lack of ANY presence concerning RMT's That's not entirely true. They do have a presence concerning RMT, we see evidence of it right here on this board. People posting, "WTH? My wallet is now negative" is proof. Also, as has been said in this thread and others, they do wipe out some of these clusters of isk farmers every once in awhile. You can see it in the systems famous for it if you watch it long enough. I think alot of players have unrealistic expectations. You think just because you spot something that looks suspicious that it must be a negative mark against CCP because they haven't acted on it right now. But the devil is in the details. Banning innocent players that look somewhat macro'ish would probably be worse than leaving these guys go for awhile until they have irrefutable proof. In other words, they have to be sure otherwise we, the real players, begin to suffer even more. And that takes time. Sig removed, inappropriate content. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
wdwjhdw	Posted - 2008.08.31 18:13:00 - [72] Having just graduated to coveter I was surprised to find how poorly ice mining paid. Guess the market is just way oversupplied. In fact all mining pays pretty poorly. Its a shame for the honest guy trying to earn a crust. In fact between this, the can flipping, and being confined to hi sec space unless I feel like suicide, I totally regret training mining.
Brusanan Caldari Sardaukar Merc Guild	Posted - 2008.08.31 19:58:00 - [73] Originally by: Morpheus Mishima Edited by: Morpheus Mishima on 31/08/2008 11:24:05 Without sounding like too much of a troll - you, are absolutely clueless. Aren't you? How would this kill their accounts? ALL EVE account data is stored at CCP / EVE central server - The client you play with only stores some basic settings. And now just to level with all the other kiddies on this forum: "epic fail". First of all, that was clearly a joke, as it would be completely illegal. And just killing the accounts of the ISK selling spammers doesn't work, because they are all trial accounts anyway. When you kill one they just make a new one for free and do the same thing. The joke was that it would be pretty hard for them to sell ISK if they have to keep reinstalling their Operating System before they can get back to spamming local with links.
Radamathadus Radical Technologies	Posted - 2008.09.01 13:09:00 - [74] Originally by: Roy Batty68 Originally by: Victor Kruger I was talking about people who are online 23/7 during longer periods (i.e. 3-4 weeks). Easily countered. Make 3-4x as many characters as workers and simply rotate the characters logged on in shifts. Then the 23/7 appearance goes away. CCP would still be able to determine if an account is logged in 23/7 and take action, besides the training required to have 3 useful characters on one account is rather alot resulting in increased costs for the farmers. If you are suggesting they would create 3-4 new accounts to by pass such action again they would increase their costs by 3-4 times which is a deterrent in its own right. If CCP caused the costs to farmers to be so high it became unprofitable they would stop. As for concerns for genuine players who like being logged in afk for 23/7, the logs they create are quite different from a "player" actively participating in mining, missions and are easily identified. As mentioned earlier CCP could get rid of the farmers over night if they choose too. Would the resulting landscape changes to the EVE economy cause players to quit as people are forced to mine for themselves and the prices of goods, ships and modules shot up? And could CCP afford to lose the revenue form the farmers accounts?
Roy Batty68 Caldari Immortal Dead	Posted - 2008.09.01 13:38:00 - [75] Edited by: Roy Batty68 on 01/09/2008 13:39:23 Originally by: Radamathadus If you are suggesting they would create 3-4 new accounts to by pass such action again they would increase their costs by 3-4 times which is a deterrent in its own right. If CCP caused the costs to farmers to be so high it became unprofitable they would stop. Good point. Although with GTCs as account payment, it's hard to say how much it would affect the isk farmer's bottom line. I imagine slightly higher operating overhead is preferable to wildly fluctuating productivity due to ban sticks causing necessary new characters/accounts and the required re-training times. Originally by: Radamathadus As mentioned earlier CCP could get rid of the farmers over night if they choose too. I'm still not convinced. There's is no logical reason for them not to, other than the cynical, "They love the money and the sub numbers padding" reasons others have given. So if they haven't done it, it must be because it just isn't that simple to get rid of them just like that. Having a quality game with 200k subs is far better than having a shit game with 250k subs. One is far more likely to grow than the other. Originally by: Radamathadus Would the resulting landscape changes to the EVE economy cause players to quit as people are forced to mine for themselves and the prices of goods, ships and modules shot up? And could CCP afford to lose the revenue form the farmers accounts? If it causes normal players to quit, GOOD tbfh. We don't need those sorts of players anyway. And the revenue lost shouldn't be a scary prospect when CCP can advertise, "Come try Eve. We nuked the hell out of the RMT guys. Something even Blizzard couldn't do".
VanderMarq	Posted - 2008.09.01 13:54:00 - [76] Originally by: wdwjhdw Blah . Why would you have a mining toon with that name and post about it???
Radamathadus Radical Technologies	Posted - 2008.09.01 15:43:00 - [77] Originally by: Roy Batty68 I'm still not convinced. There's is no logical reason for them not to, other than the cynical, "They love the money and the sub numbers padding" reasons others have given. So if they haven't done it, it must be because it just isn't that simple to get rid of them just like that. Having a quality game with 200k subs is far better than having a shit game with 250k subs. One is far more likely to grow than the other. It is the quality of the game after any complete purge of farmers, macroers and bots that is in my mind the major reason CCP doesn't simply remove them. Their presence has grown as EVE has grown. They do the "work" in EVE that most players find too boring, the mining and grinding activities that can be easily automated. Yet these activities provide the basics that all of EVE depends on - ores, ice and to a lesser extent lps rewards we take for granted on the markets. These translate into consumables that the "real player" base of eve enjoys ships, modules, pos's etc. Consider what an average real player contributes. They might get to play 4 hours a day and get around 20 hours a week playtime (most people I know get far less than this). In this time they will consume as well as create wealth. But they are unlikely to spend most of their time doing the mundane chores of mining to build their next battleship, or mining ice to fuel the alliance pos. The numbers of 23/7 farmers is estimated to be between 3k and 5k. If we take the lower figure of 3k that translates into 69,000 hours per day of economic input or over a month 2,000,000 hours. It would take over 15,000 players (playing 4 hours a day) to fill the void left if those 23/7 farmers were banned over night. I think the player base, the EVE economy and CCP are now simply dependent upon the farmers. So much of the content introduced over the last couple of years (Capitals, Super Capitals, Freighters, Pos Sovereignty) would not have been possible in the scale we have witnessed without the farmer economy. If 2,000,000 hours a month of mineral, ice and lps production were removed overnight think about the impact it would have on your game? What changes would it make to you and your friends in game activities and the ships and equipment you used on a daily basis. Given the massive inflation it would cause as stockpiles ran out Eve would never be as unwelcoming to the new player. This is why I think CCP can no longer afford to remove the farmers.
Roy Batty68 Caldari Immortal Dead	Posted - 2008.09.01 16:57:00 - [78] Originally by: Radamathadus It is the quality of the game after any complete purge of farmers, macroers and bots that is in my mind the major reason CCP doesn't simply remove them. Their presence has grown as EVE has grown. They do the "work" in EVE that most players find too boring, the mining and grinding activities that can be easily automated. Yet these activities provide the basics that all of EVE depends on - ores, ice and to a lesser extent lps rewards we take for granted on the markets. These translate into consumables that the "real player" base of eve enjoys ships, modules, pos's etc. Consider what an average real player contributes. They might get to play 4 hours a day and get around 20 hours a week playtime (most people I know get far less than this). In this time they will consume as well as create wealth. But they are unlikely to spend most of their time doing the mundane chores of mining to build their next battleship, or mining ice to fuel the alliance pos. The numbers of 23/7 farmers is estimated to be between 3k and 5k. If we take the lower figure of 3k that translates into 69,000 hours per day of economic input or over a month 2,000,000 hours. It would take over 15,000 players (playing 4 hours a day) to fill the void left if those 23/7 farmers were banned over night. I think the player base, the EVE economy and CCP are now simply dependent upon the farmers. So much of the content introduced over the last couple of years (Capitals, Super Capitals, Freighters, Pos Sovereignty) would not have been possible in the scale we have witnessed without the farmer economy. If 2,000,000 hours a month of mineral, ice and lps production were removed overnight think about the impact it would have on your game? What changes would it make to you and your friends in game activities and the ships and equipment you used on a daily basis. Given the massive inflation it would cause as stockpiles ran out Eve would never be as unwelcoming to the new player. This is why I think CCP can no longer afford to remove the farmers. Well, those are interesting points but not a new theory. And I really don't think it would be as much of a crisis as you imagine. Believe it or not, there are actually Eve players that enjoy doing that mundane stuff. I know, weird right? But they do exist. So there would be players to step into the gaps. And in a very real way that is accomodating to new players to have these sort of activities be something that pays decently and in their mind be viable professions. Consider that just two years ago a Raven used to cost somewhere around 130 mil where it now averages around 89 mil. Something has changed over time to drop it's price. If whatever that is were to suddenly be "corrected" and make the price jump up again, I'm sure people would moan about it. But that doesn't mean it wouldn't be more "right" as far as the game balance goes because along with that would probably be a mineral market that makes lowsec minerals worthwhile. Also, if there is a major drop in the ice supplies, perhaps this would lead to people not spamming POS as much once they start feeling the pain of having to run more corp ice mining ops. Hopefully leading to less claimed but unused 0.0 areas. For every, "OMG CNRs cost HOW much now?" once farmers are gone, there's another player going, "Muahahaha! My LPs are worth HOW much more now?". It balances out. Besides, it's not like we haven't seen some crazy market rollercoaster rides just in reaction to CCP adding new content. It's always steadied out after a few weeks. Remember the doom casters when they said they were removing shuttles from NPC market? Next day, 8mil isk shuttle sell orders. Simply put; I think Eve is varied and it's market complex enough to soak up the absence of a bunch of isk farmers. We, the real eve playerbase, would make it work as we always do.
Gnulpie Minmatar Miner Tech	Posted - 2008.09.01 17:09:00 - [79] First of all, several points: since there is legal isk buying provided by ccp (game time cards), people cannot complain about isk buyers isk selling outsides the gtc system affects the average eve-player in the short run (only in the long run because ccp lacks money to invest into eve, that is a very vague drawback though) Now a word to those ice (macro) miners. EVERYONE wants cheap t2 modules. The player who fit them to their ships. CCP stated also they want cheap t2 items. A large part of the production costs for t2 items, especially ships (with the bad ME from invention) is due to manufacturing costs. And a part of the manufacturing costs is pos fuel, because only with at a pos you can create the t2 materials, materials like sylramic fibers. It makes quite a difference if you have to pay 600 isk for nitrogen isotopes or 150 isk. So most of the eve population is happy about those cheap ice prices. Yelling at the macro miners is just hyprocitic. I don't like macro miners either, don't misunderstand me! But most of people yelling here are not aware of the impact those miners have and what consequences a complete removal of them would have.
Le Skunk Low Sec Liberators	Posted - 2008.09.01 17:30:00 - [80] MASSIVE INFESTATION OF ISK FARMERS IN GAME... HUGE AMOUNTS ADDED TO CCP BANK BALANCE BY NOT BANNING THEM
Verx Interis Amarr Aurora Security Cosmic Anomalies	Posted - 2008.09.01 17:43:00 - [81] Originally by: Le Skunk MASSIVE INFESTATION OF ISK FARMERS IN GAME... HUGE AMOUNTS ADDED TO CCP BANK BALANCE BY NOT BANNING THEM 5000 farmer accounts: $900,000/year the other 250,000 normal accounts: $45,000,000/year It's really not that much (2%) so you can quit being so cynical.
Victor Kruger	Posted - 2008.09.01 18:00:00 - [82] Edited by: Victor Kruger on 01/09/2008 18:01:54 The arguments that prices would skyrocket once the macro farmers are gone are popping up all the time. A slight price increase would indeed happen, but there are plenty of REAL players around who would be filling that gap pretty quickly. Also keep in mind that YOUR ingame Isk income is lowered by these activities as well each time you sell something, in the form of lower mineral prices, lower module prices, lower LP conversion ratios, and many more I'm too drunk to think of right now. edit This is of course hypothetical as we all know that CCP won't do shit about the RMT farming. You can find similair posts that date 4 years back and they have been incapable of moving their asses in the meantime, so why would they do it now?
Radamathadus Radical Technologies	Posted - 2008.09.01 18:13:00 - [83] Originally by: Verx Interis 5000 farmer accounts: $900,000/year the other 250,000 normal accounts: $45,000,000/year It's really not that much (2%) so you can quit being so cynical. 5000 farmer accounts playing 23/7 = 805,000 played hours a week 250,000 normal accounts playing 20 hours a week each = 5,000,000 played hours a week 23/7 Farmer's account for approx 14% of played game time but only 2% of CCP income. As the above poster and others say it isn't about the money CCP make - its about how the game would change without them.
Verx Interis Amarr Aurora Security Cosmic Anomalies	Posted - 2008.09.01 18:25:00 - [84] Originally by: Radamathadus Originally by: Verx Interis 5000 farmer accounts: $900,000/year the other 250,000 normal accounts: $45,000,000/year It's really not that much (2%) so you can quit being so cynical. 5000 farmer accounts playing 23/7 = 805,000 played hours a week 250,000 normal accounts playing 20 hours a week each = 5,000,000 played hours a week 23/7 Farmer's account for approx 14% of played game time but only 2% of CCP income. As the above poster and others say it isn't about the money CCP make - its about how the game would change without them. Yep, I agree. Though I think it'd be better with them gone. The only point I was trying to make is that CCP really isn't making much from them compared to other subs, so they aren't not banning them just for that extra > 1m USD. It'd be pretty stupid. I think they make that money back by putting people into negative wallets when they buy ISK, forcing them to buy GTC's to get back up.
Sleyn Peade Twilight Fleet	Posted - 2008.09.01 19:32:00 - [85] There is, in many ways, a solution that's more or less satisfactory for all parts in this, well, perhaps besides the macrofarmers, but if there's anything we've all seen it's how these roaches can think up new ways to make isk, time and time again. The problem in itself is that there are places in highsec where the macroers can just macro, without interference. This being -hauler missions -ice belts So, what would be more natural than to: -fix the hauler missions so they cant be macro'd (add variation) -remove ice belts from highsec because: - Hauler missions shouldn't be macroable at all, WTF is CCP thinking - Ice is for capship-fuel and POSfuel, something which you dont see alot of in highsec anyway, so why are the ice-belts there. Besides, it's not like there won't be any ice on the market in highsec, if they remove the belts from highsec. Products go to the demand, thats how it's always been, that's how it'll always be. And that, is why we're here in this thread, since thats also what isk-sellers are about. The effects this will have: 1: Ice prices will go up---> people who can spend millions on what the POSs and caps themselves cost shouldn't be that affected. 2: Macro-farmers will turn to ore-macro'ing (from ice-macroing) and whoknows (from hauler-macroing), which is harder to do (if it wasn't, I'd assume they'd be doing that instead of ice-macroing). 3: Ore prices will go down, but not as much as some may think: 1: Ships and gear will be cheater 2: As such people will be able to afford more 3: People will get to PvP more 4: More ships will be blown up 5: Demand for minerals will go up, since more ships are blown up I know it wont balance it out all that much, but in theory it'll take the top off the lower mineralprices. The insurance system will keep them from going totally down the drain too. And I'm sure the people who play eve for what it is, a PvP-game, will be somewhat happy about it. 4: CCP will get even more revenue than before The macro-miners, sweatshops, whatever you call them. They must have a quota to fill of some sort, and if it becomes harder for them to make the cash, they'll bring in more people to do it = extra account revenue. The recent increase in the GTC-prices should mean that more people will consider buying ISK from isksellers anyway, which should have already made room for a stack more. Even if they don't bring in more accounts to even it up, CCP can still make a PR show out of it all by calling it a nerf to macro-farmers and at least for a while silence us macro-haters. (Heck CCP can do that even if it doesn't remove macro-farmers) 5: The probability of the magic happening. That the macrofarmers will seek new havens for their macroing. I saw this screenshot on eve-files. I didn't take it, and it's fairly old. But if a belt of macroers in lowsec doesn't give some motivation for nerfing macrofarmers in highsec, I dont know what will. ommmmnomnomnomnom macrofarmers in 0.4
Fink Angel Caldari The Merry Men	Posted - 2008.09.01 19:37:00 - [86] Can we, the players, not all put together a ton of ISK to get someone to buy a Titan just to suicide a load of macroers like that screenie with a Doomsday thingy? Someone must be up for that? Imagine the glory of being the first person to lose a Titan in a suicide gank mission!
Malcanis RuffRyders Axiom Empire	Posted - 2008.09.01 20:23:00 - [87] Originally by: Fink Angel Can we, the players, not all put together a ton of ISK to get someone to buy a Titan just to suicide a load of macroers like that screenie with a Doomsday thingy? Someone must be up for that? Imagine the glory of being the first person to lose a Titan in a suicide gank mission! Doesn't work. 5 minutes later, they've all bought new Iteron IIIs and they're back in business.
Burn Mac Minmatar Burning Steel Inc.	Posted - 2008.09.01 20:53:00 - [88] Yeah i went thru Eifer today and my god there were Iterons jumping thru like crazy atleast 4-5 at gate at all time constantly being replaced by others totally hilarious.
Drykor Minmatar Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.09.02 14:36:00 - [89] I've seen this alot as well, it's plain stupid they are allowed to do this so openly.
Hieronimus Rex Minmatar Infinitus Sapientia New Eden Research	Posted - 2008.09.02 14:57:00 - [90] Originally by: Radamathadus Originally by: Verx Interis 5000 farmer accounts: $900,000/year the other 250,000 normal accounts: $45,000,000/year It's really not that much (2%) so you can quit being so cynical. 5000 farmer accounts playing 23/7 = 805,000 played hours a week 250,000 normal accounts playing 20 hours a week each = 5,000,000 played hours a week 23/7 Farmer's account for approx 14% of played game time but only 2% of CCP income. As the above poster and others say it isn't about the money CCP make - its about how the game would change without them. Forum whines, written by farmers, to have CSM, more ships, fix this, fix that, blah blah : 0 Forum whines, written by regular players, to have CSM, more ships, fix this, fix that, blah blah : countless. Large fleet battles farmers participate in : 0 Large fleet battles regular players participate in : countless.

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