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Te whole lag issue - can it just be server side?

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Sheriff Jones Amarr Clinical Experiment	Posted - 2008.09.01 07:36:00 - [1] Edited by: Sheriff Jones on 01/09/2008 07:40:45 I'm curious. Went to Jita(i know...), on a sunday(look i know!), 750 local(i know!) to pick up something from 4-4(Ok that's just rude! ). Now, i was in and out of Jita 4-4 in five minutes, no lag, maybe twice the undock/dock time(nearing a ghastly 10 seconds), but there was a helpful timer saying "wait a moment" on docking. No disconnect, warps etc. went fine, like said, in and out like a Taiwanese wo...restaurant. So, if not all are lagging/having trouble, doesn't it mean there's not JUST a problem with CCPs side, or am i missing a vital part here?
Zeba Minmatar Pator Tech School	Posted - 2008.09.01 07:43:00 - [2] It's possible that the majority of players were not spam refreshing the market at that particular moment to get that last 0.01 isk advantage before passing out for the night. Think of it as that awkward silence that happens from time to time in a conversation.
Smokie McLottapot Caldari Keepers Of The Gate	Posted - 2008.09.01 07:45:00 - [3] you got lucky, plain and simple. BTW this is soooooo worthy of a thread
Sexiest Beast Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2008.09.01 07:49:00 - [4] Originally by: Sheriff Jones Edited by: Sheriff Jones on 01/09/2008 07:40:45 I'm curious. Went to Jita(i know...), on a sunday(look i know!), 750 local(i know!) to pick up something from 4-4(Ok that's just rude! ). Now, i was in and out of Jita 4-4 in five minutes, no lag, maybe twice the undock/dock time(nearing a ghastly 10 seconds), but there was a helpful timer saying "wait a moment" on docking. No disconnect, warps etc. went fine, like said, in and out like a Taiwanese wo...restaurant. So, if not all are lagging/having trouble, doesn't it mean there's not JUST a problem with CCPs side, or am i missing a vital part here? Do you have a BOB main ? .. . . . .. . However, the lag can be very weird at times but 9/10* whenever i jump into jita Im 1mil km from perimeter gate. You can also feel the jita black hole sucking you in from a few systems outside.
Andrue Amarr	Posted - 2008.09.01 07:52:00 - [5] Edited by: Andrue on 01/09/2008 07:54:42 You're missing the fact that "The Server" is in fact many different machines. It's a server cluster. CCP refers to each of these machines as 'node's. There are less nodes than there are systems on the map so in most cases each node (ie;each computer) runs several systems. Jita is unusual in having a machine dedicated to it. For some reason this sunday the node that was running Jita was doing so without serious lag. Whether other nodes were having equally good days is another matter entirely. Incidently this is why you can get lag in a quiet system. If your system happens to be on the same node as a system with a major blobbing war going on then you will see the same kind of lag. What this tells us about Eve is: * There is no bandwidth limitation at present. That is - data can get to and from CCP's servers without any delay. * The SQL database is not the source of lag. There is only one database behind everything but this database is not constantly being queried. It only gets updated when something significant changes in the Eve world. At a guess only the removal or addition of items is noted. Fleet battles probably don't involve the SQL database until/unless a ship is lost (my assumption).
Artemis Rose Varion Galactic Accord Corporate Enterprise Syndicate	Posted - 2008.09.01 08:17:00 - [6] Originally by: Smokie McLottapot you got lucky, plain and simple. BTW this is soooooo worthy of a thread If we don't get any threads about Jita, how would we know it is Sunday?
Sheriff Jones Amarr Clinical Experiment	Posted - 2008.09.01 08:17:00 - [7] Edited by: Sheriff Jones on 01/09/2008 08:22:01 Originally by: Smokie McLottapot BTW this is soooooo worthy of a thread Originally by: Sexiest Beast Do you have a BOB main ? .. . . . .. . Christ you people... Anyway, it's not just luck, it's every time. In my whole life in the EVE universe, i've never encountered the Jita problem, that's why i ask and i'm glad there's one or two who atleast answered. It just seems very illogical for it to be a "server side problem" if it's not constant for all in same manner. But glad to know you can't ask an honest question on the forums without it being labeled as whine, bob altism or some form of troll...jesus... EDIT: Thanks Andrue, explains some of it, though it still seems weird i've yet to meet the jita problem. Hmm, dunno relly.
Reven Cordelle Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.09.01 08:55:00 - [8] I was wondering this. For me a Jita trip is a gamble. Sometimes it's faster than most of the other systems I fly through, but when it decides to lag, damn she lags.
Roy Batty68 Caldari Immortal Dead	Posted - 2008.09.01 09:04:00 - [9] You being lucky with Jita lag doesn't make for conclusive evidence. Spend a week or so there as 100% of your game time, being sure to make a few jumps in and out every hour or two, and see what the average amounts to. I would guess that 95% of your time there will be playable if a little slow. But I'm willing to bet you that you will see some stretches of just god awful lag, and more than likely have to submit a stuck petition or two. Putting it simply; Whenever players get never ending black screens or jump gate transitions that never complete, I am fairly certain that that is 100% server side fault.
Sheriff Jones Amarr Clinical Experiment	Posted - 2008.09.01 09:08:00 - [10] Originally by: Roy Batty68 You being lucky with Jita lag doesn't make for conclusive evidence. Spend a week or so there as 100% of your game time, being sure to make a few jumps in and out every hour or two, and see what the average amounts to. I would guess that 95% of your time there will be playable if a little slow. But I'm willing to bet you that you will see some stretches of just god awful lag, and more than likely have to submit a stuck petition or two. Yeah, some empiric(no pun) testing would be required Guess it's been a lucky draw for me, i don't go there THAT often, and when i do i take sound/graphics/overview/etc off so, i think that helps too. Guess the "jita problem" is mostly from people who've had the problem, where many players can live happily without problems.

Beltantis Torrence	Posted - 2008.09.01 09:10:00 - [11] Originally by: Sheriff Jones Edited by: Sheriff Jones on 01/09/2008 07:40:45 I'm curious. Went to Jita(i know...), on a sunday(look i know!), 750 local(i know!) to pick up something from 4-4(Ok that's just rude! ). Now, i was in and out of Jita 4-4 in five minutes, no lag, maybe twice the undock/dock time(nearing a ghastly 10 seconds), but there was a helpful timer saying "wait a moment" on docking. No disconnect, warps etc. went fine, like said, in and out like a Taiwanese wo...restaurant. So, if not all are lagging/having trouble, doesn't it mean there's not JUST a problem with CCPs side, or am i missing a vital part here? This thread reminds me of a pet peeve of mine in my field. I can't tell you how many times I hear, "I tried three times and it didn't fail so there is no issue". Or "I did x and the issue came about so x is the cause of the issue" where 'x' is something woefully unrelated at all to the problem. I feel like taking an introductory course in statistics should be required before allowing people to post or speak about any technical subject.
Beltantis Torrence	Posted - 2008.09.01 09:11:00 - [12] Originally by: Sheriff Jones Yeah, some empiric(no pun) testing would be required Nah, its just that when people write about issues they have no experience with as if they know something about it, the term is called "speaking out of your ass." Its generally looked down upon.
Sheriff Jones Amarr Clinical Experiment	Posted - 2008.09.01 09:16:00 - [13] Originally by: Beltantis Torrence Originally by: Sheriff Jones Yeah, some empiric(no pun) testing would be required Nah, its just that when people write about issues they have no experience with as if they know something about it, the term is called "speaking out of your ass." Its generally looked down upon. There's also a fact that i don't claim to know or have facts, that's why the thread. Might be people are so jaded that they take everything as an attack, insult, "i know!" thread or simply a troll, dunno really.
Vaal Erit Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2008.09.01 09:23:00 - [14] Lag doesn't hit everyone equally. Usually I don't lag much in jita, I zoom in, grab my shit and gtfo. But try fitting a ship in Jita and you will see the lag, sometimes modules come online right away and sometimes it takes 30+seconds. It's not like over 100 people = 5 second module lag and over 200 people = 10 second module lag, it varies alot, somepeopl eget packets and others are waiting, etc, etc. A lot of peopole claim lag hacks and whatnot, but it is truly random.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.09.01 09:33:00 - [15] I can only repeat what I was saying a lot of times in other places too. Jita is not JUST a trade hub, it's also quite a lively MISSION hub. Don't believe me ? Look at NPCs killed in last 24h. Somehow, you managed to get there at a time when not many are running missions. If Jita would ONLY be a market hub, it wouldn't lag too badly even with 2000 in local.
Pilot Abilene Caldari Serpentine Dream Theory	Posted - 2008.09.01 10:35:00 - [16] Originally by: Beltantis Torrence Originally by: Sheriff Jones Yeah, some empiric(no pun) testing would be required Nah, its just that when people write about issues they have no experience with as if they know something about it, the term is called "speaking out of your ass." Its generally looked down upon. lol I think something is stuck up your ass tbqfh.
SA Nemesis	Posted - 2008.09.01 11:01:00 - [17] it may have something 2 do with your oen computers performance and speed as its your computer that also has 2 load ever ship traveling around in space and all there movements, my old computer laggs alot on sundays in jita, but yesterday when i used my newer one with good performance things were almost lag free
Lady Valory Caldari Caldari Strike Force	Posted - 2008.09.01 11:30:00 - [18] My guess is this one patch note update will clear some lag "Buying an items will not refresh the market." Personally, I can't stand how the market locks up when checking an item. If you have 500 people in Jita or let's just be honest, 1000 people inside of 3 jumps of Jita all spamming the market 20 times a minute. Thats 20 000 times 60, for 1 200 000 calls on the database per hour, and I'm being generous! That should save some lag when it gets removed!
Hungo Minmatar Research And Tactics	Posted - 2008.09.01 11:35:00 - [19] I never get lag in Jita tbh with you. I always get in and out easily - msot of the EVE POP dont evenc are, its just the guys with not so good computers who get massivley lagged
Cygnus Zhada Amarr Reckless Corsairs	Posted - 2008.09.01 11:48:00 - [20] It's a latency problem, if you have more people, more inrtacting and pewpewing in 1 system it's gonna lag up. So the fluctuation in lag could be the fact that there's some wartargets fighting (for instance). Ofcourse the whole jita thing might partially be server related but it is mostly internet latency.

Dracorimus Caldari Edge Inc.	Posted - 2008.09.01 11:53:00 - [21] My connection is perfectly fast, and still I lag to hell on eve, any other game is fine, even with EVE running when its lagging, my other games have 10 ping, and 20 to UK servers where the TQ is. So Im guessing the server is stuttering a lot.
Winterblink Body Count Inc.	Posted - 2008.09.01 11:55:00 - [22] "Lag" of course is NOT just server-side. But I think in the incidences of massive crippling lag during things like large fleet fights and high volume systems such as Jita, that the server-side is responsible for a fair percentage of the issue.

CCP Prism X Gallente C C P	Posted - 2008.09.01 12:09:00 - [23] Edited by: CCP Prism X on 01/09/2008 12:10:37 Edited by: CCP Prism X on 01/09/2008 12:10:23 Edited by: CCP Prism X on 01/09/2008 12:09:28 Lag can't be just the servers fault as that would imply that everything else happened instantaneously. The network layer will always add some overhead from congestion or weird peering. So will your application layer, although for very different reasons. That's not to say the servers are innocent and contribute nothing. But it's not very fair to expect nodes with fleet battles to perform like Jita. Jita is a known congestion problem, fleet battles are not. If we could pre-emptively allocate systems to dedicated nodes because we know a fleet battle is about to occur.. well that means your enemy can do the same (as in pre-emptively anticipate your fleet). I'm sure you're not asking for the element of surprise to be removed all together and I'm hoping you're not expecting us to make a dedicated node for all the other 5430 systems. Neither is very practical. But I guess what we can take from this is that Jita works fine, on Sundays, for you. See what did there? So does that absolve us from complaints about pilots going catatonic upon entering Jita?. Sadly, I think not.

Ashlee Darksky Minmatar Forum Insurgency	Posted - 2008.09.01 12:10:00 - [24] Originally by: Zeba It's possible that the majority of players were not spam refreshing the market at that particular moment to get that last 0.01 isk advantage before passing out for the night. Think of it as that awkward silence that happens from time to time in a conversation. Market data that has already been fetched by the client, should be cached on the client for 1 minute - this would stop the 0.01 isk advantage that you speak of. The downside is that if/when you do attempt to buy something your cache may be out of date from the realtime market, so a query on purchase would be necessary. If that item had already been sold (or the price changed) the user should get a message saying "Price has changed since local cache" or "Item has sold since local cache" and then get a refresh. I know it would cause a little inconvenience when buying, but it would resolve the entire lag-fest black hole known as Jita.
Sheriff Jones Amarr Clinical Experiment	Posted - 2008.09.01 12:13:00 - [25] Originally by: CCP Prism X But I guess what we can take from this is that Jita works fine, on Sundays, for you. See what did there? You made me my own node? No?...shucks... Yeah, i can appreciate the plight of the CONCORD that other pilots suffer, just was curious on how things work and if the problems aren't always just "fix it!" things. From what i gather, internet, servers, nodes, computer power and the meal your mother cooked that night effects how well you get in and out of the gauntlet known as Jita
Durzel Caldari	Posted - 2008.09.01 12:21:00 - [26] It strikes me that a sizeable amount of lag could be reduced simply by scaling the effectiveness of existing CONCORD spawns, as opposed to spawning new waves for every single criminal/victim. Smartbomb the exit of Jita 4-4 and a few seconds later you'll have a armada of CONCORD ships spawn - each with their own trajectory, velocity etc that has to be communicated to every client. That's a bit of a gross oversimplification of a problem that exists, but there you go.
oniplE Loving Pirates	Posted - 2008.09.01 12:27:00 - [27] Originally by: CCP Prism X But it's not very fair to expect nodes with fleet battles to perform like Jita. I'd say the average customer doesnt really care about fairness, they just want to pew pew. ;)
Roy Batty68 Caldari Immortal Dead	Posted - 2008.09.01 12:41:00 - [28] Originally by: Durzel It strikes me that a sizeable amount of lag could be reduced simply by scaling the effectiveness of existing CONCORD spawns, as opposed to spawning new waves for every single criminal/victim. Smartbomb the exit of Jita 4-4 and a few seconds later you'll have a armada of CONCORD ships spawn - each with their own trajectory, velocity etc that has to be communicated to every client. That's a bit of a gross oversimplification of a problem that exists, but there you go. Well, on the plus side, this new Security patch is going to reduce the size of CONCORD spawns, so that's something. I agree that the way CONCORD reponds isn't exactly logical or, let's say, even close to how a police dispatcher would handle a situation. Let's say we have some criminal running amok in New York city, GTA 4 style: Dispatch> Adam 14 please respond to a 10-14 S. Algonquin ... Dispatch> Adam 12 & 13, perp has hit a stop light pole and run over a bag lady. Please respond. ... Dispatch> Adam 11, 10, 9 and 5 - perp has run over 4 more people, please respond ... Dispatch> Adam 15 thru 27, perp has collided with 9 additional vehicles, fired a gun from a moving vehicle, defaced an Ice Cream truck, and failed to pay a toll, please respond. <few minutes later with 19 units on site> Adam 12> Dispatch, Adam 12. Perp subdued. We returned fire and put him down. ... Dispatch> Roger that, Adam 12. Please remain on site for the next 14 hours. ... Adam 12> Dispatch... he's dead. Dave shot him in the head. He's done. ... Dispatch> Roger that, Adam 12. I say again, stay on site for the next 14 hours just in case.
SentryRaven Sentry Security	Posted - 2008.09.01 12:48:00 - [29] Edited by: SentryRaven on 01/09/2008 12:49:17 snip Double Post.... :(
SentryRaven Sentry Security	Posted - 2008.09.01 12:49:00 - [30] Originally by: SentryRaven Originally by: Roy Batty68 Originally by: Durzel It strikes me that a sizeable amount of lag could be reduced simply by scaling the effectiveness of existing CONCORD spawns, as opposed to spawning new waves for every single criminal/victim. Smartbomb the exit of Jita 4-4 and a few seconds later you'll have a armada of CONCORD ships spawn - each with their own trajectory, velocity etc that has to be communicated to every client. That's a bit of a gross oversimplification of a problem that exists, but there you go. Well, on the plus side, this new Security patch is going to reduce the size of CONCORD spawns, so that's something. I agree that the way CONCORD reponds isn't exactly logical or, let's say, even close to how a police dispatcher would handle a situation. Let's say we have some criminal running amok in New York city, GTA 4 style: Dispatch> Adam 14 please respond to a 10-14 S. Algonquin ... Dispatch> Adam 12 & 13, perp has hit a stop light pole and run over a bag lady. Please respond. ... Dispatch> Adam 11, 10, 9 and 5 - perp has run over 4 more people, please respond ... Dispatch> Adam 15 thru 27, perp has collided with 9 additional vehicles, fired a gun from a moving vehicle, defaced an Ice Cream truck, and failed to pay a toll, please respond. <few minutes later with 19 units on site> Adam 12> Dispatch, Adam 12. Perp subdued. We returned fire and put him down. ... Dispatch> Roger that, Adam 12. Please remain on site for the next 14 hours. ... Adam 12> Dispatch... he's dead. Dave shot him in the head. He's done. ... Dispatch> Roger that, Adam 12. I say again, stay on site for the next 14 hours just in case. You saved my day... thanks!



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