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JoCool	Posted - 2004.06.10 15:05:00 - [1] Afternoon. I've recently thought about the Raven and thought that it could use a buff regarding the number of its turret slots. Due to the limited powergrid and lack of turret bonus it will certainly not affect it pvp wise, but makes it a better miner. Currently even a Thorax, a Cruiser, is a better miner than the Raven, being a Tier 2 Battleship. It has certainly lost its main combat edges in "the balance pass" which is about to hit TQ next week, thus I thought it would be fair to buff it a bit economical wise so that it can at least keep up with Cruisers as a miner and should be a bit better at hunting and looting NPC rats. Of course there's the graphical problem - the Raven has just 4 graphical turret slots. As far as I've heard (I haven't flown it), one of the Amarr interceptors lacks one graphical turret too and noone dies because of it. I'd certainly be fine with it. Give me your feedback please, what do you think about it?
Maidel	Posted - 2004.06.10 15:58:00 - [2] im sorry - but from what ive HEARD.. ravens still pwn everything on chaos... either way why should they be ok at everything? apocs still suck only thing they are any good for is mining - why improve the turrets on a raven? 'Your Tachyon Beam Laser I perfectly strikes Sansha's Ravager, wrecking for 554.6 damage. - they do work occationally'
Hellek	Posted - 2004.06.10 16:55:00 - [3] well, I actually think that adding 2 more turrets would be a good idea as I think that all races should have a good mining ship, but of course that should only come with either a PvP nerf for raven or a PvP boost for the other ships. As its now, the Raven is the best ship in PvP and I think one reasons for that is that it totally sucks as a miner. That would obviously need a change if its mining abilities get improved.
Meridius	Posted - 2004.06.10 17:10:00 - [4] It's a torpedo boat, it's not suppose to have more turret points. The raven is still the king of pvp, i have no idea what your talking about (yes i play on chaos (when it works)). I don't agree with battleships mining at all but i suppose atm there is no quick fix to this, people need to mine. The raven is fine as it is, it doesnt need anymore boosts of any kind. ________________________________________________________
SaintLuck	Posted - 2004.06.10 18:38:00 - [5] Originally by: Meridius It's a torpedo boat, it's not suppose to have more turret points. The raven is still the king of pvp, i have no idea what your talking about (yes i play on chaos (when it works)). I don't agree with battleships mining at all but i suppose atm there is no quick fix to this, people need to mine. The raven is fine as it is, it doesnt need anymore boosts of any kind. Meridus, I know u are a legit player so Id like to ask u a question based upon ur experience. For those of us who arent fortunate enough to thouroghly test setups on chaos, yet are interested in battleship changes,, what exactly do u mean when u say the raven is still king of PVP? Specifically, are u saying that in your opinion it will still rock even after the missle nerf patch? I ask only because you read such conflicting reports here of what the ships r doing on chaos, once I saw a reliable source post I figured it would be worth a shot at asking. Thnx
Raem Civrie	Posted - 2004.06.10 18:44:00 - [6] Missiles were only partly nerfed. The larger missile space on the launchers and the fact that the battleships alone can use torps preserve the usefulness of the Raven. Also, the autoloading system is apparently good.
Toastmaster	Posted - 2004.06.10 21:19:00 - [7] If CCP wanted all races have good mining ships they had made mining laser not a turret slot and been able to fit in all slots "viper zulu > toast has killed our whole corporation ships at least once"
Hematic	Posted - 2004.06.10 21:45:00 - [8] PvE vs PvP should NOT be used to balance ships. Mythic tried that in the beginning and it just caused problems. Once they balanced things based soley on PvP and gave every class a role in combat it improved the game by leaps and bounds. Balancing PvE and PvP should both be seperate issues. Yes, Caldari should have a PvE option (even if it's a third BS type) just like Amarr should have a PvP option.
Jeswyn	Posted - 2004.06.10 22:40:00 - [9] Mining hardpoints on a Battleship? Hell no....
Xhalen Toth	Posted - 2004.06.10 23:38:00 - [10] Actually, I've always thought that the Scorpion should be the ship that gets the additional turret slots. Don't really have a specific reason why it should be the Scorpion over the Raven, perhaps because of the shield bonus. "A shadowy ichor is beginning to extend its tendrils into society."
Meridius	Posted - 2004.06.11 00:04:00 - [11] Originally by: SaintLuck Originally by: Meridius It's a torpedo boat, it's not suppose to have more turret points. The raven is still the king of pvp, i have no idea what your talking about (yes i play on chaos (when it works)). I don't agree with battleships mining at all but i suppose atm there is no quick fix to this, people need to mine. The raven is fine as it is, it doesnt need anymore boosts of any kind. Meridus, I know u are a legit player so Id like to ask u a question based upon ur experience. For those of us who arent fortunate enough to thouroghly test setups on chaos, yet are interested in battleship changes,, what exactly do u mean when u say the raven is still king of PVP? Specifically, are u saying that in your opinion it will still rock even after the missle nerf patch? I ask only because you read such conflicting reports here of what the ships r doing on chaos, once I saw a reliable source post I figured it would be worth a shot at asking. Thnx One sure way of telling if the raven is gonna suck is to see what Tank CEO does, hes strictly a raven pilot and one of the best if not the very best out there. If he stopped using the raven, then i'd say it got nerfed, alas, he uses it and still pwns so thats a simple way of checking up on the raven Besides that, just look at the facts. The raven can still tank like a mofo and deal tons of damage with non-named non-tech2 dmg mods. Once those come into play, watch out ________________________________________________________
hellwarrior	Posted - 2004.06.11 00:09:00 - [12] Edited by: hellwarrior on 11/06/2004 00:11:02 WHY!?!?! the only thing that would gain is have it totally eat @$$ at PVP. ANY large gun except like dual heavy ion use more then 1750mw. the grid is being reduced, and u would need cap modules. this is the most disturbing post i've seen in awhile. next to when are titans coming out? (btw answer,stfu u can't afford one, yes you get another post in this one:]) edit as for mining, THATS RIGHT, use a thorax. -.- orrr.... sell your raven, make some $, get an armageddon/scorp. mine shoot armor tank, don't armor tank, don't add more raven turrets.
JoCool	Posted - 2004.06.11 01:40:00 - [13] hellwarrior, lay off the booze. It's not good for you.
hellwarrior	Posted - 2004.06.11 02:44:00 - [14] Sadly, i'm sober, just angry atm :D Btw, i think your insane if it needm sore turrets. FYI BATTLESHIPS != MINING SHIPS; battleships != miningships; battle != mining; mining != battle; Raven = PVP; PVP != mining; If you want a mining ship, get a thorax. DO NOT say apoc, it makes me cry... considering its a pimpin shield tank atm. buy a thorax + harvs + waste some time mining /emote runs off to flame another thread I'm new at this so tell me if its mean enough. etc.
Levin Cavil	Posted - 2004.06.11 03:12:00 - [15] Well I am on chaos right now, and it is pretty lame. A Raven can kill pretty much anything with 6x siege launchers (and 2 empty highs?) but it still sucks at range. The Apoc can kill anything as well, but it is stronger at range since you can get under the gun range. Balance is WAY off, not even resembling something that is workable on TQ and not even comparable to what we have now. As far as 6 turrets on the Raven, I really dont see what PvP has to do with mining. It's a BATTLESHIP, not an industrial. Why is it that you have to sacrifice mining ability for pvp ability, they are totally different. The Apoc can do a fine job of pvp on Chaos (and TQ if you know what you are doing) and it can mine better than any other ship. WHY DOES THAT MATTER? (hint: it doesn't matter) IMO the Raven should have 5 turrrets and enough grid for 5 425s and 3 cruise missile launchers. I think they should add a new industrial with 6/8 mining only turrets and a medium cargo hold, you know an INDUSTRIAL, not a dumptruck. You could even give it a mining bonus. But I might be applying too much logic to a problem to find a solution CCP will accept. I was starting to think things were going to be ok but after testing on chaos it's clear that they are a long ways off. ------------------------------ <Hammerhead> we can't do anything that requires programming
NajZero	Posted - 2004.06.11 06:25:00 - [16] @ JoCool give the Raven +10 Turrets and add 10 more Highslots, increase the Powergrid to 30k and the CPU to 2k. Raven should need 8000m¦ to carry 10000 CruiseMissles and so on. It¦s the stupidest advice i¦ve ever heard since EVE has a discussion Board. A Raven has the ability to fit 6 Launchers and no other BS got this ability and most Caldari ships are Missile Carebears. It¦s the same when you¦re say, the Megathron needs to have 6 Launchers as well. Listen man, the Raven is a Battleship and they are used for Battle and not for carebear mining in 1.0 security System. If you need a Harvester BS take an APOC.
Hellek	Posted - 2004.06.11 06:47:00 - [17] That's why I always say that Lasers (and I mean "Lasers" and not "Mining Lasers") need a boost ... Apoc should be more than that. People always totally overrate it in PvP => CCP does not boost it as much as they should => still sucks.
Jarjar	Posted - 2004.06.11 07:31:00 - [18] Hehe still sucks And here I am thinking about starting to train for amarr battleships when I have caldari + gallente level 4.
NajZero	Posted - 2004.06.11 08:12:00 - [19] I suggest that we need Miningships are come into the game. Then we need a certain miningplatforms that are only allowed to fit miners or they are very decreased in Powergrid that they cannot fit Large guns. I suggest a Miningplatform with 10 Mininglasers and Cargo of a doubled Indy. And any other normal Ship Frig/Cruiser/BS aren¦t allowed to use Miners. This would solve many many Problems.
Wicked Warrior	Posted - 2004.06.11 09:27:00 - [20] IMHO it is very good as it is at the moment. If you want to be uberminer then you have to skill to Apoc, If you want to fight close up skill to a Mega, If you want a nice range ship skill to an Tempest... It is good that everyone have to make a chioce of what they want to skill first. There is always ships that is better than the other in something, but not in a single race. Let people do their choice of what is important to them, we do not want one single ship totally dominating everything! ------------------------------------------ When you get close enough to read this line, you are low... Choose your meaning of low a) passing below the normal level base of measurement b) marking a nadir or bottom <the low point of his career> c) DEAD -- used as a predicate adjective d) socially humble in character or status e) of lesser degree f) of lesser position, rank, or order g) falling short of some standard (mine) h) not advanced in complexity, development, or elaboration
dabster	Posted - 2004.06.11 10:24:00 - [21] Wanting more turrets on Raven is like cursing in church ___________________________ Chicks dig Brutor's
Xavier Cardde	Posted - 2004.06.11 10:42:00 - [22] Originally by: Maidel im sorry - but from what ive HEARD.. ravens still pwn everything on chaos... either way why should they be ok at everything? apocs still suck only thing they are any good for is mining - why improve the turrets on a raven? You obviously never met my friend Black Lotus with Amarr BS 5 and Large Energy 5... with the new patch he could effectivly mount 8 tachyon and still armour tank and have no cap problems... an Apoc can be the scarriest thing in space. it is one hell of a PVP ship if you are capable... 1v1 with top skills generally the apoc wins.
Saladin	Posted - 2004.06.11 10:54:00 - [23] To be honest I am very dissapointed that CCP did not release any kind of dedicated mining ship. People pay extra millions for a thorax for its 5 turret slots (and drone bay) while others will pay 100 mil for an apoc and its 8 turret slots. These are CRUISERS and BATTLESHIPS respectively, they are ships of war and are being relegated to mining duties and aside from the turrets, are poorly suited to mining (low cargo space). It amazes me that in the universe of EvE all those big npc corporations have yet to find a way to mine without using warships. There is no ship class dedicated to mining. There should be a ship that takes 5-10 mil to produce, have something like 8 turret slots, good cpu and something like 32 or 35MW of powergrid. Give it weak shields and low speed so that people cannot mine alone, not even in emppire space. This whole notion of mining in cruisers and battleships is NONSENSE --------------------------- (c) Copyright Saladin, 2005. Any editing of this post by a third party will be in violation United States Internet Copyright law 46525 of 2003.
Kosan	Posted - 2004.06.11 11:02:00 - [24] i think im ganna agree with that. Maybe industrial ships shouldnt be JUST haulers. it would be cool to have a mining ship with like more than 1 turret slot (indies) and yeah battleships should be used for just that: battle. What about the titans? the new big space station type ships. those are ganna have over 8 turret slots.. think you will want to mine in a 1billion ISK ship? ----------------------------------------------- I saw god the other day. By the river on a rainey afternoon. He helped a kitten that was left all alone. Its a god that only I can see. A blackened angel that came down from the heavens just for me.
JoCool	Posted - 2004.06.11 11:15:00 - [25] Originally by: NajZero @ JoCool give the Raven +10 Turrets and add 10 more Highslots, increase the Powergrid to 30k and the CPU to 2k. Raven should need 8000m¦ to carry 10000 CruiseMissles and so on. It¦s the stupidest advice i¦ve ever heard since EVE has a discussion Board. I asked for 5 turret slots only, I don't fly anything but Caldarian engineered ships. Besides, there's no need to flame me like this just because we've shot you down in the evening.
John McCreedy	Posted - 2004.06.11 11:16:00 - [26] Edited by: John McCreedy on 11/06/2004 11:19:19 Originally by: Hellek well, I actually think that adding 2 more turrets would be a good idea as I think that all races should have a good mining ship, but of course that should only come with either a PvP nerf for raven or a PvP boost for the other ships. As its now, the Raven is the best ship in PvP and I think one reasons for that is that it totally sucks as a miner. That would obviously need a change if its mining abilities get improved. Good God no thank you! Leave the Raven as it is - a pure PvP ship. Quote: Wanting more turrets on Raven is like cursing in church Couldn't of put it better myself. Make a difference
JoCool	Posted - 2004.06.11 11:22:00 - [27] About the specialised mining ships, I fully agree that we should use them for mining once they're out. But till then we need to use Battleships. Oveur about the idea of mining ships In the 4th post.
NajZero	Posted - 2004.06.11 11:23:00 - [28] Quote: I asked for 5 turret slots only, I don't fly anything but Caldarian engineered ships. Besides, there's no need to flame me like this just because we've shot you down in the evening. Lol, Hey Jo I¦m not taking your style to flaming in another thread because i shot you down. And killing a Typhoon with 4 Frigs, and 3 BS¦s is not an act of honor, and then you need more than 5 minutes to kill me, foolish hrhr. Maybe you think when you¦re stealing 20k Arkonor and lots of other equipment from the corphangar it¦s honourable but changing sites and switching to a corp, payed by CA to start a Corpwar in Empire is more than dishonorably that a Pilot can be. Shame on you!!
Maidel	Posted - 2004.06.11 11:29:00 - [29] Edited by: Maidel on 11/06/2004 11:31:10 Originally by: Saladin To be honest I am very dissapointed that CCP did not release any kind of dedicated mining ship. People pay extra millions for a thorax for its 5 turret slots (and drone bay) while others will pay 100 mil for an apoc and its 8 turret slots. These are CRUISERS and BATTLESHIPS respectively, they are ships of war and are being relegated to mining duties and aside from the turrets, are poorly suited to mining (low cargo space). It amazes me that in the universe of EvE all those big npc corporations have yet to find a way to mine without using warships. There is no ship class dedicated to mining. There should be a ship that takes 5-10 mil to produce, have something like 8 turret slots, good cpu and something like 32 or 35MW of powergrid. Give it weak shields and low speed so that people cannot mine alone, not even in emppire space. This whole notion of mining in cruisers and battleships is NONSENSE sorry if i had the option of one of those ships OR mining in my bs still - id take the bs WHY? because of protection, because i can fit a mwd to it and run, because i have uber drone space on apoc/ arma, because both these ships have the capasity to take damage and give damage EVEN WHEN MINING. Why anyone would swap into a mining industrial unless if practically doubled the yeild is beyond me. edit PS i havent mined for over 2 months now - but if i loose a bs i will be and ill be doing it in empire space in 0.8 or below. 'Your Tachyon Beam Laser I perfectly strikes Sansha's Ravager, wrecking for 554.6 damage. - they do work occationally'
Hellek	Posted - 2004.06.11 11:55:00 - [30] Originally by: Wicked Warrior IMHO it is very good as it is at the moment. If you want to be uberminer then you have to skill to Apoc, If you want to fight close up skill to a Mega, If you want a nice range ship skill to an Tempest... It is good that everyone have to make a chioce of what they want to skill first. There is always ships that is better than the other in something, but not in a single race. Let people do their choice of what is important to them, we do not want one single ship totally dominating everything! I agree that it should not be the case that one ship dominates everything, but Apoc IS CALLED A BATTLESHIP and actually also is the most expensive of all of them, so I do think that A BATTLESHIP SHOULD BE GOOD IN BATTLES. Therefore I really think that mining industrials should come as soon as possible to compensate the mining-advantage the Apoc has, and on the other side, boost Lasers to bring the Apoc up to par with the other BS in combat.

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