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soldieroffortune 258 Gallente Trinity Council	Posted - 2008.09.06 04:37:00 - [31] Originally by: Commander Kaj in case you did not see the response to this argument earlier, these thieves are using alt in npc corps so that they can not get war decked. They are not stupid. I also adapted to the situation and blew up the remaining wrecks before the a-hole could get to them. Someone that is not in my corp or alliance will not profit off of my work. It's stealing and anyone who says it is not is a thief defending their actions and exploiting a loophole that will soon be corrected I hope. this however SHOULD be fixed, its as bad as the corp hoppers, atm i dont have any ideas, but maybe you can think of some Originally by: soldieroffortune 258 "*Eve is about making yourself richer while making the other guy poorer*"
Mika Meroko Minmatar Crayon Posting Inc	Posted - 2008.09.06 04:43:00 - [32] Edited by: Mika Meroko on 06/09/2008 04:44:34 Originally by: Commander Kaj in case you did not see the response to this argument earlier, these thieves are using alt in npc corps so that they can not get war decked. They are not stupid. I also adapted to the situation and blew up the remaining wrecks before the a-hole could get to them. Someone that is not in my corp or alliance will not profit off of my work. It's stealing and anyone who says it is not is a thief defending their actions and exploiting a loophole that will soon be corrected I hope. good job on the blowing up wreck bit... but yeah, you keep saying they are theives.. but CCP designed it that way, that is legal XD heck, petition someone for salvaging your wreck and read the response XD CCP's rule, hell, they changed it to make it not need to empty the wreck (which flags the person) to salvage.. CCP is PRO-current salvage rules.... (similar to RL salvage rules too, content belong to owner, while the wreck stripped belongs to salvager.) ftr I dont loot or salvage.. I find that blitzing though missions gets more isk per hour (less work too...) than spending 30 minutes to pick out the wrecks.... by that time I usually able to finish another mission... Originally by: CCP Atropos I pod people because there's money to be made in selling tears.
Commander Kaj	Posted - 2008.09.06 05:15:00 - [33] I am aware of how it was set up. I also keep calling them thieves because they are. If they weren't then they would not be using an alt in a npc corp and refuse to interact with you when you try to contact them. Yes, they are thieves. Ok let's look at it like this. I spend the isk to buy the ship to run the missions. I spend the isk on the ammo used to blow up the ships in the mission. I take all the risk of destroying the ships. I spend 30+ mil to setup a dedicated salvage ship. I use my time playing the game to kill, loot, and salvagemissions. Why should someone else have the right to steal my salvage with no fear of repercussions after I do all of the work? IT IS STEALING!
Xindi Kraid Cerulean Sky Fire Industries	Posted - 2008.09.06 05:29:00 - [34] You spend 30mil on a salvager? There is something wrong with you I think. Also it's not stealing because its NOT YOURS -So says Xindi Kraid Dear devs: Sign here initial here here and here
Commander Kaj	Posted - 2008.09.06 05:44:00 - [35] Originally by: Xindi Kraid You spend 30mil on a salvager? There is something wrong with you I think. Also it's not stealing because its NOT YOURS Well, if that is your logic, then it is not yours either. So, I guess that means you are stealing it. During the mission it should belong to the mission runner. Yes, you should be able to scan out wrecks. Yes anyone entering someone else's mission should be viewed as hostile. And yes, I spent the isk setting up the salvage ship in order to salvage a mission quickly. It has more than paid for itself many times over. I guess that if it were up to you it would be completely useless because you are a thief.
Xindi Kraid Cerulean Sky Fire Industries	Posted - 2008.09.06 06:25:00 - [36] Acording to game law the salvage is property of whoever has a salvageer module running on it so technicly it isn't possible to steal salvage. -So says Xindi Kraid Dear devs: Sign here initial here here and here
Washell Olivaw	Posted - 2008.09.06 11:19:00 - [37] Originally by: Commander Kaj It's stealing and anyone who says it is not is a thief defending their actions and exploiting a loophole that will soon be corrected I hope. It's not an exploit. It will not be fixed. Official announcement As for the whole thief vs salvage laws. Even if it is stealing and the people doing it are thieves. This is EVE. Stealing, killing, scamming, ripping of and all sorts of other nasty things players can do to players are allowed and intended. The intended course of action for people who do not like this is to seek like minded individuals, move to low-sec/0.0 and enforce their own rules, at gunpoint. Originally by: Signature Everybody has a photographic memory, some people just don't have film.
Commander Kaj	Posted - 2008.09.06 14:42:00 - [38] The game is supposed to be set up to allow for many different styles of gameplay. If they did not want that then High sec would not be as secure as it is now. It appears as though they are creating a safe haven for those players who want to run missions or mine and not deal with pvp. You seem to think that the players following the rules and not griefing other players should move out to low sec in order to get away from, or fight off the griefers. I say the griefers and the thieves should have to live in low sec and let the non pvp mission runners live thier pvp free game lifes in peace. It IS stealing. The more you argue that it is not, the more you sound like thieves. Get over it. What you are doing is wrong and you know it. and don't give me this sob story about how are we salvagers supposed to survive? Kill a ship a freakin change.
soldieroffortune 258 Gallente Trinity Council	Posted - 2008.09.06 16:07:00 - [39] Edited by: soldieroffortune 258 on 06/09/2008 16:12:49 Edited by: soldieroffortune 258 on 06/09/2008 16:07:39 Originally by: Commander Kaj The game is supposed to be set up to allow for many different styles of gameplay. If they did not want that then High sec would not be as secure as it is now. It appears as though they are creating a safe haven for those players who want to run missions or mine and not deal with pvp. You seem to think that the players following the rules and not griefing other players should move out to low sec in order to get away from, or fight off the griefers. I say the griefers and the thieves should have to live in low sec and let the non pvp mission runners live thier pvp free game lifes in peace. It IS stealing. The more you argue that it is not, the more you sound like thieves. Get over it. What you are doing is wrong and you know it. and don't give me this sob story about how are we salvagers supposed to survive? Kill a ship a freakin change. sigh . . . . . i can turn around and say the same thing your corp more than likely produces much more salvage than my corp can, which means you are selling more and undercutting us, with your extremely sensitive to anything logic, i can also turn around and say THAT is griefing, your undercutting us, me and my corp want to sell trit bars for 150k a piece, but we are being undercut by you and your corp / alliance who can afford to sell them for only 120k, again, by your definition, your griefing us, i just want to sell my trit bars for 150k a piece in peace and you may or may not realize it, but you pvp ALL the time, as i said, it just seems less like "griefing" or "opposition" but anything you do in this game is pvp you just see ninja salvaging as "griefing" because its not your particular playstyle, your asking them to nerf someone elses playstyle because its not how you like to play the game, it would be like me asking CCP to fix the prices for everything in-game so everyone can make the same amount of money no matter if they are a solo l4 mission runner, or in a mission running corp or alliance EDIT: and there are NO rules against salvaging / ninja salvaging EDIT AGAIN: ok, you tell "me" (im not a ninja salvager) to kill a ship for a change, why dont you go to low sec and pop them when they come near you, the options to fight against ninja salvagers are there, you just want an "easy" button from CCP because you dont want to go to low sec almost everything you say can be re-applied to go against your proffession Originally by: soldieroffortune 258 "*Eve is about making yourself richer while making the other guy poorer*"
Joe Starbreaker Starbreaker Frigateers	Posted - 2008.09.06 17:03:00 - [40] High sec is a "safe haven" which means that in exchange for nobody being able to shoot at you, you also don't have the right to shoot at anybody else. If you want the freedom to enforce your own justice, go to lowsec.
Fullmetal Jackass	Posted - 2008.09.07 02:20:00 - [41] Edited by: Fullmetal Jackass on 07/09/2008 02:22:09 Originally by: Mika Meroko (similar to RL salvage rules too, content belong to owner, while the wreck stripped belongs to salvager.) Actually what it says is the owner of salvaged property has to pay the Salvor a recovery fee for his goods. Quit bringin up real life salvage law. It changes from contry to country and there is no enforceable law in international waters. Everyone just tries to get along so wars don't get started. Also you don't create wrecks to salvage them in real life do you? Well maybe if you are a pirate. Yes there are still pirates in RL.
Commander Kaj	Posted - 2008.09.08 01:14:00 - [42] haha, I do go to low sec and null sec. I am also not the only player that wants this changed. How about this then why don't all you "salvagers" out there ask if the mission runner would mind if you salvaged the ships before just stealing the salvage from them? Maybe then you won't be so hated and have to hide in npc corps in order to survive. P.S. locking a discussion is not going to stop me from pursuing a change in this area.
soldieroffortune 258 Gallente Trinity Council	Posted - 2008.09.08 01:31:00 - [43] ^^^^ that sounds like a good solution, why dont you try it and listen to all the ninja salvager tears and come brag about it, i would love to see that Originally by: soldieroffortune 258 "*Eve is about making yourself richer while making the other guy poorer*"
Xindi Kraid Cerulean Sky Fire Industries	Posted - 2008.09.08 02:53:00 - [44] Edited by: Xindi Kraid on 08/09/2008 02:53:26 See here -So says Xindi Kraid Dear devs: Sign here initial here here and here
Commander Kaj	Posted - 2008.09.08 05:35:00 - [45] that statement from ccp and a locked thread is not going to deter me from trying to get it changed.
Commander Kaj	Posted - 2008.09.08 15:42:00 - [46] Originally by: soldieroffortune 258 ^^^^ that sounds like a good solution, why dont you try it and listen to all the ninja salvager tears and come brag about it, i would love to see that Yea they really do seem to whine about how hard their game life is and how us mission runners should just let them have our salvage when we spent our time killing them. Freakin' crybaby thieves. What do ya know, just like in the real world. The underachievers wine about how hard they have it and think that the successful people owe them stuff because they already have enough. Lame!
H Lecter Gallente The Black Rabbits The Gurlstas Associates	Posted - 2008.09.08 16:12:00 - [47] Originally by: Commander Kaj The game is supposed to be set up to allow for many different styles of gameplay. But Kaj, you are aware that this voids any point you bring up against ninja salvaging? If you are looking for a RL profession, take my advice and don't try becoming a lawyer
Commander Kaj	Posted - 2008.09.08 16:45:00 - [48] that does not void my argument. Let them ninja salvage, but just don't let them do it without consequences.
Luzz Bightyear Caldari The PeacekeeperZ	Posted - 2008.09.08 17:00:00 - [49] Do what I do: blow up the wrecks. I salvage as I go anyway, it's only when they start dying off faster than I can salvage that anyone gets any chance at all to get at my wrecks. ------------------ Hi-ho, hi-ho, It's off to lowsec we go, With a sh*t fit 'sprey, and T1 drones, Hi-ho, hi-ho hi-ho hi-ho. - Anon
Karentaki Gallente Fighting While Intoxicated Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2008.09.08 17:03:00 - [50] Originally by: Commander Kaj I am aware of how it was set up. I also keep calling them thieves because they are. If they weren't then they would not be using an alt in a npc corp and refuse to interact with you when you try to contact them. Yes, they are thieves. Ok let's look at it like this. I spend the isk to buy the ship to run the missions. I spend the isk on the ammo used to blow up the ships in the mission. I take all the risk of destroying the ships. I spend 30+ mil to setup a dedicated salvage ship. I use my time playing the game to kill, loot, and salvagemissions. Why should someone else have the right to steal my salvage with no fear of repercussions after I do all of the work? IT IS STEALING! For you information I was a 'theif' by your standards, yet I was in a player corp, using my main, and having entertaining conversations with the mission runners. Also, for your information I regularly looted missions too, so the mission runner always had a chance to fight back. Nonetheless, I never lost a ship. Quote: EVE is like a sandbox with landmines. Deal with it.
Commander Kaj	Posted - 2008.09.08 17:11:00 - [51] well, congratulations for not being one of the chicken sh*t "salvagers" that are out there now. If you gave them a chance to fight back then bravo to you sir.
soldieroffortune 258 Gallente Trinity Council	Posted - 2008.09.08 18:49:00 - [52] Originally by: Commander Kaj that does not void my argument. Let them ninja salvage, but just don't let them do it without consequences. then they bring a battleship into your mission, you shoot them, they kill you then you come here on the forums to complain . . . . . AGAIN Originally by: soldieroffortune 258 "*Eve is about making yourself richer while making the other guy poorer*"
Xindi Kraid Cerulean Sky Fire Industries	Posted - 2008.09.08 19:07:00 - [53] Edited by: Xindi Kraid on 08/09/2008 19:08:14 What is with this "if I can't have it no one can" attitude with people blowing up wrecks as a solution anyways? The less wrecks there are to salvage, the less salvage we have to make rigs, the more rigs cost and less profitable they are. Really by stopping people from salvaging you are hurting everyone. Also I think you people are doing it wrong. I have been in missions where I was with a couple other players and we all had drones. We could have been scanned easily, but we never are. Why? Because we don't mission in hubs. Instead of crying about salvagers, go somewhere they don't operate. If there is a problem fix it yourself -So says Xindi Kraid Dear devs: Sign here initial here here and here
Sienna Bara	Posted - 2008.09.08 23:01:00 - [54] Quote: This is caution for all players currently engaged in mission running activities. The wreck ownership mechanism has recently been changed, and as such will not belong to the character doing most damage to the NPC anymore, but to the pilot who first accepted the mission. Also, this change has nothing to do with salvaging rights themselves as they remain untouched. Players are still completely free to salvage other pilot wrecks at will, no matter if they belong to the same corporation or not and doing so is not considered as an exploit. Quote is taken from here Linkage CCP are contradicting themselves abit here. First they say the wreck belong to the player who first accepted the mission, then they say that it doesn't. They say the wreck belong to the mission runner. If someone else comes in and salvages that wreck, there is no wreck for the mission runner to own anymore. So, its clearly stealing.
Xindi Kraid Cerulean Sky Fire Industries	Posted - 2008.09.08 23:13:00 - [55] They are talking about the loot inside -So says Xindi Kraid Dear devs: Sign here initial here here and here
Sienna Bara	Posted - 2008.09.08 23:16:00 - [56] That is not what it says. It says the wrecks belong to the player who accepted the mission. Here, I'll quote it again just in case you missed it. Quote: This is caution for all players currently engaged in mission running activities. The wreck ownership mechanism has recently been changed, and as such will not belong to the character doing most damage to the NPC anymore, but to the pilot who first accepted the mission.
Joe Starbreaker Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2008.09.08 23:51:00 - [57] Originally by: Sienna Bara Just to make it clear, I don't mind them being able to salvage my wrecks, but they should be criminally flagged for it. That way I can kill them if its wrecks i want to salvage or let them be when i cant be bothered. Because, in the real world, if somebody steals your stuff, you have the right to murder them? The whole point of highsec is that it's civilized. You are free. You are protected from people who would use violence to interfere with your playing the game the way you want. The flip side of this is that everybody else is free, too. You aren't free to stop them from playing the game the way they like. Just as in the real world, freedom means the freedom to be an a--hole. In EVE there is a solution. You can enforce your own justice, through war or vigilante action. But it requires making a choice. What you are asking for in this thread is not freedom from ninja salvagers, but freedom from having to fight for the claim you've staked.
Sienna Bara	Posted - 2008.09.09 00:04:00 - [58] Hmm. To state the obvious. This isn't the Real world. I'm just saying that the wreck belongs to me. Assuming i killed that ship. So says CCP. But what it is now is that I only own the loot. It makes no sense, either both flags the offender or none. Compared to the real world (You started it). Your car gets destroyed somehow. Collision or what not. Is the car suddenly free for all? Just so long as they leave your wallet and the CDs? Your sitting there waiting for a tow truck and a guy stops buy and helps himself to a headlamp and a door. That's considered stealing. No way around it. The issue is split between the ones doing the "illegal" salvaging and the ones actually owning the wrecks. In my opinion it should flag the offender in the same way as if he stuck his hand in the wreck and grabbed the useless bit of kit most often found there.
Quicksail	Posted - 2008.09.09 00:23:00 - [59] I would gladly fight for my claims. If the salvager is in a corp then we can do something. If he's not, there is nothing we can do except suicide gank him (if we can, though not really a viable option). Why should he be safe from us? There's less risk for him to do the salvaging than there is flying from Jita in a hauler. (Suicide ganking is alive and well with the new concord rules) Now, If he got flagged? Perfect, then we could fight! People are complaining that High Sec is getting to safe. Its not, but even it out so both sides have the same risk.
Xindi Kraid Cerulean Sky Fire Industries	Posted - 2008.09.09 00:30:00 - [60] Originally by: Sienna Bara Edited by: Sienna Bara on 09/09/2008 00:07:04 Hmm. To state the obvious. This isn't the Real world. I'm just saying that the wreck belongs to me. Assuming i killed that ship. So says CCP. But what it is now is that I only own the loot. It makes no sense, either both flags the offender or none. Compared to the real world (You started it). Your car gets destroyed somehow. Collision or what not. Is the car suddenly free for all? Just so long as they leave your wallet and the CDs? Your sitting there waiting for a tow truck and a guy stops buy and helps himself to a headlamp and a door. That's considered stealing. No way around it. And yes, War is all well and good so long as the ones doing the stealing is in a proper corp. Some are, most aren't. The issue is split between the ones doing the "illegal" salvaging and the ones actually owning the wrecks. In my opinion it should flag the offender in the same way as if he stuck his hand in the wreck and grabbed the useless bit of kit most often found there. THis isn't cars in space it's ships in space. If you wreck your ship not only can someone salvage the ship but they can bill you for placing their ship in danger. The wrecks belonging to the person who takes the mission is so that you can have any loot from ships your fleet, or just some random passerby kills. Its to stop people from completing your mission and taking your loot. Also if EvE isn't the real world then why are you even applying real world law of you even having protection from thieves? Seems you are applying real law at your discretion. -So says Xindi Kraid Dear devs: Sign here initial here here and here

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