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Major Aglaea	Posted - 2008.09.04 01:58:00 - [1] Is it possible to make salvaging someone elses wreaks illigel? it needs to be, its getting rediculous in penirgman with this "suddenly ninjas" corp. They make more off salvaging my wreaks than they do the loot. something needs to be done, at least make it to where we are able to shoot them.
Xindi Kraid Cerulean Sky Fire Industries	Posted - 2008.09.04 02:00:00 - [2] Salvage belongs to the salvager. The devs said so, thy are not gonna change it, end of story. Also if you operate in mission hubs stop complaining about people running garbage collection and go to a system they don't operate in. -So says Xindi Kraid Dear devs: Sign here initial here here and here
Lothros Andastar Gallente	Posted - 2008.09.04 02:04:00 - [3] No. End of story. Now GTFO my internets
Fraszoid Caldari Condottieri Industries The Economy	Posted - 2008.09.04 05:00:00 - [4] War dec them? I go a lot of missions and never have problems with ninja salvagers stealing my wrecks. Moving to a different system might solve the problem as they only gather where there are lots of people so its easy to find wrecks. The loss in potential income would be off set by the gains in salvage income from not having it stolen. If the salvager had a limited tractor beam built in, just 5000m range like the salgaver and a would allow you to tow the wreck behind you so you could salvage on missions a bot more effectively, it would hopefully reduce the salvage theives could steal and mission runners could salvage while running the mission, albeit less effectively than a dedicated ship could. -------------------------------------------------- Everyone is born right handed, only the great over come it. Check out my players guide at: http://www.eve-miners.info/guide/minersguide.html
Fullmetal Jackass	Posted - 2008.09.04 06:38:00 - [5] Originally by: Fraszoid War dec them? When's the last time someone started stealing your wrecks, who was NOT in an npc corp? Griefer tactic ftw.
Achran Dexx Caldari CompleXion Industries CompleXion Alliance	Posted - 2008.09.04 07:03:00 - [6] Originally by: Major Aglaea Is it possible to make salvaging someone elses wreaks illigel? it needs to be, its getting rediculous in penirgman with this "suddenly ninjas" corp. They make more off salvaging my wreaks than they do the loot. something needs to be done, at least make it to where we are able to shoot them. You know, you can wardec them... Salvage is by design nobody's property, Eve's a sandbox, make what you want of it.
Fullmetal Jackass	Posted - 2008.09.04 08:17:00 - [7] Originally by: Achran Dexx You know, you can wardec them... Salvage is by design nobody's property, Eve's a sandbox, make what you want of it. Again, for the stupid. Most people that "steal" other peoples wrecks (what else to you call it when somone takes somthing without permission?), they will be in an npc corp. No war dec possible. I understand ccp's stance on the subject. They want to create conflict. They want salavaging to be a profession. BUT people are using an exploit (npc corp immunity) to get around game mechanics and grief other players while making free cash.
Torothanax	Posted - 2008.09.04 08:18:00 - [8] Nerf alts.
Ydyp Ieva Caldari Amarrian Retribution	Posted - 2008.09.04 08:25:00 - [9] Well if the wreck is for everyone, why isn't the loot in it then for everyone to pick? Yes CCP changed that and added the stealing aggro in for canminers. But same goes for loot on missions. You killed the pirate, so you claim the wreck. If someone else takes it they should get the same result as when they take the loot out of the wreck. Meaning the guy that blown up the pirate gets the right to shoot them.
Boomerang Shasta	Posted - 2008.09.04 11:47:00 - [10] Last time I looked, there was no "suddenly ninjas" noob corp. Read the OP people. Wardec them. Get other local corps to wardec them. -Boom-
Joe Starbreaker Starbreaker Frigateers	Posted - 2008.09.04 19:25:00 - [11] Originally by: Boomerang Shasta Last time I looked, there was no "suddenly ninjas" noob corp. Read the OP people. Wardec them. Get other local corps to wardec them. -Boom- Yeah. They'd hate that!
Nadarius Chrome Celestial Horizon Corp. Celestial Industrial Alliance	Posted - 2008.09.05 01:34:00 - [12] Read up on current, real-world salvage laws. CCP's not far off with their way of implementing it. If you want the salvage, then loot/salvage as you go. If you move on, it's not yours anymore. Seems logical to me.
Jaketh Ivanes Amarr Imperial Servants	Posted - 2008.09.05 08:16:00 - [13] Just get it through your head, that you don't have an salvage rights. First come, first serve.. so get there first.
Shadow Richard	Posted - 2008.09.05 08:36:00 - [14] Well I never got the concept of this, whats the difference between salvage and loot, you take a 75mm Railgun or a Burned logic board its still taking other players wrecks, i think either make it both Thief Aggro or None.
Shadow Richard	Posted - 2008.09.05 08:39:00 - [15] but if a player find a bunch of wrecks in middle of deadspace and waits and no one comes, why not. If you are not gonna come back for why not have someone else get it before it disappears. Are you talking about players popping up in middle of your mission? And starting to salvage while?
Grarr Dexx Amarr The Cosa Nostra La Cosa Nostra Alliance	Posted - 2008.09.05 08:39:00 - [16] Salvaging is a variable option, not an ability.
Shadow Richard	Posted - 2008.09.05 08:41:00 - [17] or make a restriction, during missions no one else unless in fleet can salvage or take loot, that can solve the problem.
Grarr Dexx Amarr The Cosa Nostra La Cosa Nostra Alliance	Posted - 2008.09.05 08:42:00 - [18] Nope, pop the wrecks yourself or get it salvaged with a buddy in a fast ship or relinquish the right to your salvage.
Shadow Richard	Posted - 2008.09.05 08:45:00 - [19] well i notice ppl use 2 ships for missions, a combat and one for salvage, bad idea i think, when im in mission i go group to group, combat loot and salvage move on to next group....
Grarr Dexx Amarr The Cosa Nostra La Cosa Nostra Alliance	Posted - 2008.09.05 08:47:00 - [20] It is still a multiplayer game, mechanics shouldn't be changed because people 'steal' that which could easily be taken if you don't have friends with you.
Shadow Richard	Posted - 2008.09.05 08:48:00 - [21] true, all im saying is, there is a way to avoid it. i mostly do lvl 3 in high secs so i havent come across this problem, maybe this is in low sec.
Shadow Richard	Posted - 2008.09.05 08:50:00 - [22] Edited by: Shadow Richard on 05/09/2008 08:53:00 this is why the probing thing is kinda wack, it scans ships drones structures but not wrecks. Probe restriction i think is eh. Cuz they are gonna find it anyways...right? Flooding Board: Adding: I gave up probing really, i found a crap load of lost drones, i rolled up into someones mission once, and i thought to myself, this is dumb reason being, i can scan for a ship and drop into someone mission, but i cant scan for wrecks.....waste of time, so I just do my own missions salvage and loot my own...for now.
Fullmetal Jackass	Posted - 2008.09.05 10:12:00 - [23] Originally by: Jaketh Ivanes Just get it through your head, that you don't have an salvage rights. First come, first serve.. so get there first. That would be fine if it were true. How about when someone starts salvaging your wrecks right of you, while yer still tanking and killin. Had it happen a couple times. I just start poppin wrecks, but that means I lose out on half the mission income.
Yamato Gasaraki	Posted - 2008.09.05 10:30:00 - [24] Originally by: Fullmetal Jackass I still think salvage should stay yours as long as you stay on the grid it's on, OR should be your property for 30 minutes and then become FFA after the time expires. Hooray for withering Lootrights. We definitely need the possibility to become Garbagecollectors to benefit from those Pigs littering the Galaxy! Become one with the Void, leave behind your earthen Fears, Desires, Hopes. Don't let it fill you out, consume your Soul, your very being, making you dull.
Commander Kaj	Posted - 2008.09.05 22:14:00 - [25] Look, you want to collect "garbage" from other peoples kills, then that is fine as long as you are doing it normal space. If you fly into someones mission while they are running it and start salvaging from under them then you are stealing plain and simple. I don't know about the rest of you, but the missions i run generally create about 10 million isk worth of "garbage" as some of you have put it. There is no argument to justify that that is not stealing. If you fly into someone else's mission and are not a part of their fleet, then you should immediately be considered an aggressor and they should have the right to kill you. It's not your mission, and you have no reason to be there unless you are intending on stealing from that person or group. Now, if they have turned in the mission before they decided to go back and salvage, then I say free game. If the mission is still open then stay the f' out of it!
soldieroffortune 258 Gallente Trinity Council	Posted - 2008.09.06 04:08:00 - [26] Originally by: Fullmetal Jackass Originally by: Fraszoid War dec them? When's the last time someone started stealing your wrecks, who was NOT in an npc corp? Griefer tactic ftw. when the "Suddenly Ninja's" corporation came into my mission? idk, just throwing it out there as for the stealing salvage thing, NO, hell no, high sec needs to have some risk, with the recent concord buff, its almost completely safe anywhoo, so again i say NO /not signed Originally by: soldieroffortune 258 "*Eve is about making yourself richer while making the other guy poorer*"
soldieroffortune 258 Gallente Trinity Council	Posted - 2008.09.06 04:11:00 - [27] Originally by: Shadow Richard true, all im saying is, there is a way to avoid it. i mostly do lvl 3 in high secs so i havent come across this problem, maybe this is in low sec. and for this: lol no, the ninja salvagers really dont bother with l3 missions, practically NO large wrecks, where as l4 missions can have a dozen or more large wrecks, w/ a ton of bc wrecks Originally by: soldieroffortune 258 "*Eve is about making yourself richer while making the other guy poorer*"
soldieroffortune 258 Gallente Trinity Council	Posted - 2008.09.06 04:15:00 - [28] Originally by: Commander Kaj Look, you want to collect "garbage" from other peoples kills, then that is fine as long as you are doing it normal space. If you fly into someones mission while they are running it and start salvaging from under them then you are stealing plain and simple. I don't know about the rest of you, but the missions i run generally create about 10 million isk worth of "garbage" as some of you have put it. There is no argument to justify that that is not stealing. If you fly into someone else's mission and are not a part of their fleet, then you should immediately be considered an aggressor and they should have the right to kill you. It's not your mission, and you have no reason to be there unless you are intending on stealing from that person or group. Now, if they have turned in the mission before they decided to go back and salvage, then I say free game. If the mission is still open then stay the f' out of it! gtf over it people, as i said, the recent concord buff has made high sec safer than it needs to be imho, get the hell over it, you miners and mission runners love to say "adapt or die" well, i say to you "adapt or die" why dont you do the EVE thing and war dec them if they steal "your" salvage or if they loot your wrecks, then just shoot their ass mission space is also not "owned" by you, who knows, maybe it is an upstanding citizen who just wants to help rid the universe of the pesky serpentis / angels / in-game pirate corps Originally by: soldieroffortune 258 "*Eve is about making yourself richer while making the other guy poorer*"
Commander Kaj	Posted - 2008.09.06 04:30:00 - [29] in case you did not see the response to this argument earlier, these thieves are using alt in npc corps so that they can not get war decked. They are not stupid. I also adapted to the situation and blew up the remaining wrecks before the a-hole could get to them. Someone that is not in my corp or alliance will not profit off of my work. It's stealing and anyone who says it is not is a thief defending their actions and exploiting a loophole that will soon be corrected I hope.
soldieroffortune 258 Gallente Trinity Council	Posted - 2008.09.06 04:35:00 - [30] Originally by: Commander Kaj in case you did not see the response to this argument earlier, these thieves are using alt in npc corps so that they can not get war decked. They are not stupid. I also adapted to the situation and blew up the remaining wrecks before the a-hole could get to them. Someone that is not in my corp or alliance will not profit off of my work. It's stealing and anyone who says it is not is a thief defending their actions and exploiting a loophole that will soon be corrected I hope. now THAT is the EVE thing to do good job 10/10 Originally by: soldieroffortune 258 "*Eve is about making yourself richer while making the other guy poorer*"
soldieroffortune 258 Gallente Trinity Council	Posted - 2008.09.06 04:37:00 - [31] Originally by: Commander Kaj in case you did not see the response to this argument earlier, these thieves are using alt in npc corps so that they can not get war decked. They are not stupid. I also adapted to the situation and blew up the remaining wrecks before the a-hole could get to them. Someone that is not in my corp or alliance will not profit off of my work. It's stealing and anyone who says it is not is a thief defending their actions and exploiting a loophole that will soon be corrected I hope. this however SHOULD be fixed, its as bad as the corp hoppers, atm i dont have any ideas, but maybe you can think of some Originally by: soldieroffortune 258 "*Eve is about making yourself richer while making the other guy poorer*"
Mika Meroko Minmatar Crayon Posting Inc	Posted - 2008.09.06 04:43:00 - [32] Edited by: Mika Meroko on 06/09/2008 04:44:34 Originally by: Commander Kaj in case you did not see the response to this argument earlier, these thieves are using alt in npc corps so that they can not get war decked. They are not stupid. I also adapted to the situation and blew up the remaining wrecks before the a-hole could get to them. Someone that is not in my corp or alliance will not profit off of my work. It's stealing and anyone who says it is not is a thief defending their actions and exploiting a loophole that will soon be corrected I hope. good job on the blowing up wreck bit... but yeah, you keep saying they are theives.. but CCP designed it that way, that is legal XD heck, petition someone for salvaging your wreck and read the response XD CCP's rule, hell, they changed it to make it not need to empty the wreck (which flags the person) to salvage.. CCP is PRO-current salvage rules.... (similar to RL salvage rules too, content belong to owner, while the wreck stripped belongs to salvager.) ftr I dont loot or salvage.. I find that blitzing though missions gets more isk per hour (less work too...) than spending 30 minutes to pick out the wrecks.... by that time I usually able to finish another mission... Originally by: CCP Atropos I pod people because there's money to be made in selling tears.
Commander Kaj	Posted - 2008.09.06 05:15:00 - [33] I am aware of how it was set up. I also keep calling them thieves because they are. If they weren't then they would not be using an alt in a npc corp and refuse to interact with you when you try to contact them. Yes, they are thieves. Ok let's look at it like this. I spend the isk to buy the ship to run the missions. I spend the isk on the ammo used to blow up the ships in the mission. I take all the risk of destroying the ships. I spend 30+ mil to setup a dedicated salvage ship. I use my time playing the game to kill, loot, and salvagemissions. Why should someone else have the right to steal my salvage with no fear of repercussions after I do all of the work? IT IS STEALING!
Xindi Kraid Cerulean Sky Fire Industries	Posted - 2008.09.06 05:29:00 - [34] You spend 30mil on a salvager? There is something wrong with you I think. Also it's not stealing because its NOT YOURS -So says Xindi Kraid Dear devs: Sign here initial here here and here
Commander Kaj	Posted - 2008.09.06 05:44:00 - [35] Originally by: Xindi Kraid You spend 30mil on a salvager? There is something wrong with you I think. Also it's not stealing because its NOT YOURS Well, if that is your logic, then it is not yours either. So, I guess that means you are stealing it. During the mission it should belong to the mission runner. Yes, you should be able to scan out wrecks. Yes anyone entering someone else's mission should be viewed as hostile. And yes, I spent the isk setting up the salvage ship in order to salvage a mission quickly. It has more than paid for itself many times over. I guess that if it were up to you it would be completely useless because you are a thief.
Xindi Kraid Cerulean Sky Fire Industries	Posted - 2008.09.06 06:25:00 - [36] Acording to game law the salvage is property of whoever has a salvageer module running on it so technicly it isn't possible to steal salvage. -So says Xindi Kraid Dear devs: Sign here initial here here and here
Washell Olivaw	Posted - 2008.09.06 11:19:00 - [37] Originally by: Commander Kaj It's stealing and anyone who says it is not is a thief defending their actions and exploiting a loophole that will soon be corrected I hope. It's not an exploit. It will not be fixed. Official announcement As for the whole thief vs salvage laws. Even if it is stealing and the people doing it are thieves. This is EVE. Stealing, killing, scamming, ripping of and all sorts of other nasty things players can do to players are allowed and intended. The intended course of action for people who do not like this is to seek like minded individuals, move to low-sec/0.0 and enforce their own rules, at gunpoint. Originally by: Signature Everybody has a photographic memory, some people just don't have film.
Commander Kaj	Posted - 2008.09.06 14:42:00 - [38] The game is supposed to be set up to allow for many different styles of gameplay. If they did not want that then High sec would not be as secure as it is now. It appears as though they are creating a safe haven for those players who want to run missions or mine and not deal with pvp. You seem to think that the players following the rules and not griefing other players should move out to low sec in order to get away from, or fight off the griefers. I say the griefers and the thieves should have to live in low sec and let the non pvp mission runners live thier pvp free game lifes in peace. It IS stealing. The more you argue that it is not, the more you sound like thieves. Get over it. What you are doing is wrong and you know it. and don't give me this sob story about how are we salvagers supposed to survive? Kill a ship a freakin change.
soldieroffortune 258 Gallente Trinity Council	Posted - 2008.09.06 16:07:00 - [39] Edited by: soldieroffortune 258 on 06/09/2008 16:12:49 Edited by: soldieroffortune 258 on 06/09/2008 16:07:39 Originally by: Commander Kaj The game is supposed to be set up to allow for many different styles of gameplay. If they did not want that then High sec would not be as secure as it is now. It appears as though they are creating a safe haven for those players who want to run missions or mine and not deal with pvp. You seem to think that the players following the rules and not griefing other players should move out to low sec in order to get away from, or fight off the griefers. I say the griefers and the thieves should have to live in low sec and let the non pvp mission runners live thier pvp free game lifes in peace. It IS stealing. The more you argue that it is not, the more you sound like thieves. Get over it. What you are doing is wrong and you know it. and don't give me this sob story about how are we salvagers supposed to survive? Kill a ship a freakin change. sigh . . . . . i can turn around and say the same thing your corp more than likely produces much more salvage than my corp can, which means you are selling more and undercutting us, with your extremely sensitive to anything logic, i can also turn around and say THAT is griefing, your undercutting us, me and my corp want to sell trit bars for 150k a piece, but we are being undercut by you and your corp / alliance who can afford to sell them for only 120k, again, by your definition, your griefing us, i just want to sell my trit bars for 150k a piece in peace and you may or may not realize it, but you pvp ALL the time, as i said, it just seems less like "griefing" or "opposition" but anything you do in this game is pvp you just see ninja salvaging as "griefing" because its not your particular playstyle, your asking them to nerf someone elses playstyle because its not how you like to play the game, it would be like me asking CCP to fix the prices for everything in-game so everyone can make the same amount of money no matter if they are a solo l4 mission runner, or in a mission running corp or alliance EDIT: and there are NO rules against salvaging / ninja salvaging EDIT AGAIN: ok, you tell "me" (im not a ninja salvager) to kill a ship for a change, why dont you go to low sec and pop them when they come near you, the options to fight against ninja salvagers are there, you just want an "easy" button from CCP because you dont want to go to low sec almost everything you say can be re-applied to go against your proffession Originally by: soldieroffortune 258 "*Eve is about making yourself richer while making the other guy poorer*"
Joe Starbreaker Starbreaker Frigateers	Posted - 2008.09.06 17:03:00 - [40] High sec is a "safe haven" which means that in exchange for nobody being able to shoot at you, you also don't have the right to shoot at anybody else. If you want the freedom to enforce your own justice, go to lowsec.
Fullmetal Jackass	Posted - 2008.09.07 02:20:00 - [41] Edited by: Fullmetal Jackass on 07/09/2008 02:22:09 Originally by: Mika Meroko (similar to RL salvage rules too, content belong to owner, while the wreck stripped belongs to salvager.) Actually what it says is the owner of salvaged property has to pay the Salvor a recovery fee for his goods. Quit bringin up real life salvage law. It changes from contry to country and there is no enforceable law in international waters. Everyone just tries to get along so wars don't get started. Also you don't create wrecks to salvage them in real life do you? Well maybe if you are a pirate. Yes there are still pirates in RL.
Commander Kaj	Posted - 2008.09.08 01:14:00 - [42] haha, I do go to low sec and null sec. I am also not the only player that wants this changed. How about this then why don't all you "salvagers" out there ask if the mission runner would mind if you salvaged the ships before just stealing the salvage from them? Maybe then you won't be so hated and have to hide in npc corps in order to survive. P.S. locking a discussion is not going to stop me from pursuing a change in this area.
soldieroffortune 258 Gallente Trinity Council	Posted - 2008.09.08 01:31:00 - [43] ^^^^ that sounds like a good solution, why dont you try it and listen to all the ninja salvager tears and come brag about it, i would love to see that Originally by: soldieroffortune 258 "*Eve is about making yourself richer while making the other guy poorer*"
Xindi Kraid Cerulean Sky Fire Industries	Posted - 2008.09.08 02:53:00 - [44] Edited by: Xindi Kraid on 08/09/2008 02:53:26 See here -So says Xindi Kraid Dear devs: Sign here initial here here and here
Commander Kaj	Posted - 2008.09.08 05:35:00 - [45] that statement from ccp and a locked thread is not going to deter me from trying to get it changed.
Commander Kaj	Posted - 2008.09.08 15:42:00 - [46] Originally by: soldieroffortune 258 ^^^^ that sounds like a good solution, why dont you try it and listen to all the ninja salvager tears and come brag about it, i would love to see that Yea they really do seem to whine about how hard their game life is and how us mission runners should just let them have our salvage when we spent our time killing them. Freakin' crybaby thieves. What do ya know, just like in the real world. The underachievers wine about how hard they have it and think that the successful people owe them stuff because they already have enough. Lame!
H Lecter Gallente The Black Rabbits The Gurlstas Associates	Posted - 2008.09.08 16:12:00 - [47] Originally by: Commander Kaj The game is supposed to be set up to allow for many different styles of gameplay. But Kaj, you are aware that this voids any point you bring up against ninja salvaging? If you are looking for a RL profession, take my advice and don't try becoming a lawyer
Commander Kaj	Posted - 2008.09.08 16:45:00 - [48] that does not void my argument. Let them ninja salvage, but just don't let them do it without consequences.
Luzz Bightyear Caldari The PeacekeeperZ	Posted - 2008.09.08 17:00:00 - [49] Do what I do: blow up the wrecks. I salvage as I go anyway, it's only when they start dying off faster than I can salvage that anyone gets any chance at all to get at my wrecks. ------------------ Hi-ho, hi-ho, It's off to lowsec we go, With a sh*t fit 'sprey, and T1 drones, Hi-ho, hi-ho hi-ho hi-ho. - Anon
Karentaki Gallente Fighting While Intoxicated Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2008.09.08 17:03:00 - [50] Originally by: Commander Kaj I am aware of how it was set up. I also keep calling them thieves because they are. If they weren't then they would not be using an alt in a npc corp and refuse to interact with you when you try to contact them. Yes, they are thieves. Ok let's look at it like this. I spend the isk to buy the ship to run the missions. I spend the isk on the ammo used to blow up the ships in the mission. I take all the risk of destroying the ships. I spend 30+ mil to setup a dedicated salvage ship. I use my time playing the game to kill, loot, and salvagemissions. Why should someone else have the right to steal my salvage with no fear of repercussions after I do all of the work? IT IS STEALING! For you information I was a 'theif' by your standards, yet I was in a player corp, using my main, and having entertaining conversations with the mission runners. Also, for your information I regularly looted missions too, so the mission runner always had a chance to fight back. Nonetheless, I never lost a ship. Quote: EVE is like a sandbox with landmines. Deal with it.
Commander Kaj	Posted - 2008.09.08 17:11:00 - [51] well, congratulations for not being one of the chicken sh*t "salvagers" that are out there now. If you gave them a chance to fight back then bravo to you sir.
soldieroffortune 258 Gallente Trinity Council	Posted - 2008.09.08 18:49:00 - [52] Originally by: Commander Kaj that does not void my argument. Let them ninja salvage, but just don't let them do it without consequences. then they bring a battleship into your mission, you shoot them, they kill you then you come here on the forums to complain . . . . . AGAIN Originally by: soldieroffortune 258 "*Eve is about making yourself richer while making the other guy poorer*"
Xindi Kraid Cerulean Sky Fire Industries	Posted - 2008.09.08 19:07:00 - [53] Edited by: Xindi Kraid on 08/09/2008 19:08:14 What is with this "if I can't have it no one can" attitude with people blowing up wrecks as a solution anyways? The less wrecks there are to salvage, the less salvage we have to make rigs, the more rigs cost and less profitable they are. Really by stopping people from salvaging you are hurting everyone. Also I think you people are doing it wrong. I have been in missions where I was with a couple other players and we all had drones. We could have been scanned easily, but we never are. Why? Because we don't mission in hubs. Instead of crying about salvagers, go somewhere they don't operate. If there is a problem fix it yourself -So says Xindi Kraid Dear devs: Sign here initial here here and here
Sienna Bara	Posted - 2008.09.08 23:01:00 - [54] Quote: This is caution for all players currently engaged in mission running activities. The wreck ownership mechanism has recently been changed, and as such will not belong to the character doing most damage to the NPC anymore, but to the pilot who first accepted the mission. Also, this change has nothing to do with salvaging rights themselves as they remain untouched. Players are still completely free to salvage other pilot wrecks at will, no matter if they belong to the same corporation or not and doing so is not considered as an exploit. Quote is taken from here Linkage CCP are contradicting themselves abit here. First they say the wreck belong to the player who first accepted the mission, then they say that it doesn't. They say the wreck belong to the mission runner. If someone else comes in and salvages that wreck, there is no wreck for the mission runner to own anymore. So, its clearly stealing.
Xindi Kraid Cerulean Sky Fire Industries	Posted - 2008.09.08 23:13:00 - [55] They are talking about the loot inside -So says Xindi Kraid Dear devs: Sign here initial here here and here
Sienna Bara	Posted - 2008.09.08 23:16:00 - [56] That is not what it says. It says the wrecks belong to the player who accepted the mission. Here, I'll quote it again just in case you missed it. Quote: This is caution for all players currently engaged in mission running activities. The wreck ownership mechanism has recently been changed, and as such will not belong to the character doing most damage to the NPC anymore, but to the pilot who first accepted the mission.
Joe Starbreaker Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2008.09.08 23:51:00 - [57] Originally by: Sienna Bara Just to make it clear, I don't mind them being able to salvage my wrecks, but they should be criminally flagged for it. That way I can kill them if its wrecks i want to salvage or let them be when i cant be bothered. Because, in the real world, if somebody steals your stuff, you have the right to murder them? The whole point of highsec is that it's civilized. You are free. You are protected from people who would use violence to interfere with your playing the game the way you want. The flip side of this is that everybody else is free, too. You aren't free to stop them from playing the game the way they like. Just as in the real world, freedom means the freedom to be an a--hole. In EVE there is a solution. You can enforce your own justice, through war or vigilante action. But it requires making a choice. What you are asking for in this thread is not freedom from ninja salvagers, but freedom from having to fight for the claim you've staked.
Sienna Bara	Posted - 2008.09.09 00:04:00 - [58] Hmm. To state the obvious. This isn't the Real world. I'm just saying that the wreck belongs to me. Assuming i killed that ship. So says CCP. But what it is now is that I only own the loot. It makes no sense, either both flags the offender or none. Compared to the real world (You started it). Your car gets destroyed somehow. Collision or what not. Is the car suddenly free for all? Just so long as they leave your wallet and the CDs? Your sitting there waiting for a tow truck and a guy stops buy and helps himself to a headlamp and a door. That's considered stealing. No way around it. The issue is split between the ones doing the "illegal" salvaging and the ones actually owning the wrecks. In my opinion it should flag the offender in the same way as if he stuck his hand in the wreck and grabbed the useless bit of kit most often found there.
Quicksail	Posted - 2008.09.09 00:23:00 - [59] I would gladly fight for my claims. If the salvager is in a corp then we can do something. If he's not, there is nothing we can do except suicide gank him (if we can, though not really a viable option). Why should he be safe from us? There's less risk for him to do the salvaging than there is flying from Jita in a hauler. (Suicide ganking is alive and well with the new concord rules) Now, If he got flagged? Perfect, then we could fight! People are complaining that High Sec is getting to safe. Its not, but even it out so both sides have the same risk.
Xindi Kraid Cerulean Sky Fire Industries	Posted - 2008.09.09 00:30:00 - [60] Originally by: Sienna Bara Edited by: Sienna Bara on 09/09/2008 00:07:04 Hmm. To state the obvious. This isn't the Real world. I'm just saying that the wreck belongs to me. Assuming i killed that ship. So says CCP. But what it is now is that I only own the loot. It makes no sense, either both flags the offender or none. Compared to the real world (You started it). Your car gets destroyed somehow. Collision or what not. Is the car suddenly free for all? Just so long as they leave your wallet and the CDs? Your sitting there waiting for a tow truck and a guy stops buy and helps himself to a headlamp and a door. That's considered stealing. No way around it. And yes, War is all well and good so long as the ones doing the stealing is in a proper corp. Some are, most aren't. The issue is split between the ones doing the "illegal" salvaging and the ones actually owning the wrecks. In my opinion it should flag the offender in the same way as if he stuck his hand in the wreck and grabbed the useless bit of kit most often found there. THis isn't cars in space it's ships in space. If you wreck your ship not only can someone salvage the ship but they can bill you for placing their ship in danger. The wrecks belonging to the person who takes the mission is so that you can have any loot from ships your fleet, or just some random passerby kills. Its to stop people from completing your mission and taking your loot. Also if EvE isn't the real world then why are you even applying real world law of you even having protection from thieves? Seems you are applying real law at your discretion. -So says Xindi Kraid Dear devs: Sign here initial here here and here
Major Aglaea	Posted - 2008.09.09 01:26:00 - [61] ok here's the thing, i don't care if other players salvage wreaks IF they find them with no one around. no since in the wreaks and salvage just disapearing, on the other hand i do have a problem with someone warping in on another player while they are still in the middle of the damn mission and start to salvage. Some players don't have the luxury or the skills yet to maintain all the guns on their ship, a salvager and/or tractor beam, and stay alive. Personaly I think the problem could be solved with a simple color correction. seeing the wreaks stay in space for roughly two hours why not make them blue or green or any other color for 45 min to an hour as to say "mission runner still has rights to these cans" any individual trying to salvage these colored cans will face the same consequences they would if they were to loot them. after the 45 min to an hour pass the cans turn white again and its fair game. That way the mission runner has a chance to collect what they want, if they want it and the salvagers have a chance to take what they want if its left behind or the mission runner runs out of time.
Trent Nichols Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2008.09.09 03:42:00 - [62] The only times I was ever bothered by ninja looters was when I was grinding up standings in highsec a while back. I'm in the middle of a mission with full aggro and in comes a small ship that begins to salvage my wrecks. Ive got an overview full of flashing red to deal with so I cant race him to the wrecks. I'm tempted to pop the wrecks loot and all but I decided against it. Short of destroying my own isk, there is nothing I can do to stop him and that was what frustrated me. Yes CCP has said loot is fair game but I cant see how it isn't stealing if I'm right there still working away, producing more wrecks. In that situation he should at least be flagged. He wants my stuff? Fair enough. If he can dodge my antimatter and outrun my drones its his The simple solution would be to flag anyone who loots a mission while it mission is still active. Had the guy waited until I was done, everything would have been fine. I didn't even have a salvager fitted. Logistics deployables mean less grind and more pewpew!
Kahega Amielden Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2008.09.09 05:35:00 - [63] Edited by: Kahega Amielden on 09/09/2008 05:41:08 Originally by: Major Aglaea ok here's the thing, i don't care if other players salvage wreaks IF they find them with no one around. no since in the wreaks and salvage just disapearing, on the other hand i do have a problem with someone warping in on another player while they are still in the middle of the damn mission and start to salvage. Some players don't have the luxury or the skills yet to maintain all the guns on their ship, a salvager and/or tractor beam, and stay alive. Personaly I think the problem could be solved with a simple color correction. seeing the wreaks stay in space for roughly two hours why not make them blue or green or any other color for 45 min to an hour as to say "mission runner still has rights to these cans" any individual trying to salvage these colored cans will face the same consequences they would if they were to loot them. after the 45 min to an hour pass the cans turn white again and its fair game. That way the mission runner has a chance to collect what they want, if they want it and the salvagers have a chance to take what they want if its left behind or the mission runner runs out of time. Miners also need a module that lets them "claim" an asteroid belt, giving him killrights on anyone who mines any ores from it until he leaves. Oh, and explorers should be able to drop a signal reducer that makes it impossible for other explorers to find the site Salvaging is its own profession in EVE, and unlike missioning, it's a competitive one. Deal with it. Quote: The simple solution would be to flag anyone who loots a mission while it mission is still active. Had the guy waited until I was done, everything would have been fine. I didn't even have a salvager fitted. Salvaging /= looting. As stated before, it's a separate profession and just because he beat you to it doesn't mean he's done anything wrong.
Major Aglaea	Posted - 2008.09.09 06:18:00 - [64] Originally by: Kahega Amielden Edited by: Kahega Amielden on 09/09/2008 05:41:08 Miners also need a module that lets them "claim" an asteroid belt, giving him killrights on anyone who mines any ores from it until he leaves. Oh, and explorers should be able to drop a signal reducer that makes it impossible for other explorers to find the site Salvaging is its own profession in EVE, and unlike missioning, it's a competitive one. Deal with it. ok now your just being stupid, missions are given out to an individual not the entire solar system so the individual should have rights to their own missions salvagables. of course the only reason you don't want it changed is becase you can legally steal someone elses hard work and get away with it. if things were changed then poor little you would actually have to find a way to make your own isk. you wanna take someones salvage fine grow a pair and do it in lower sec. the reason people like me are in high sec is because we enjoy playing eve without pvp and would like to continue to do so without having to deal with ppl like you. salvaging is not a "competitive profession" is a sorry way of using the system to get something for nothing. as i mentioned before you wanna salvage thats fine, at least wait until ppl finish their missions or go find a place where their are no players.
Jaketh Ivanes Amarr Imperial Servants	Posted - 2008.09.09 07:40:00 - [65] Originally by: Fullmetal Jackass Edited by: Fullmetal Jackass on 05/09/2008 10:22:35 Originally by: Jaketh Ivanes Just get it through your head, that you don't have an salvage rights. First come, first serve.. so get there first. That would be fine if it were true. What is not true? It's the definition of salvage. What is not true, is your perception of it. So, to reiterate, get it through your head, and all problems are solved .
Fullmetal Jackass	Posted - 2008.09.09 11:43:00 - [66] Originally by: Jaketh Ivanes What is not true? It's the definition of salvage. What is not true, is your perception of it. So, to reiterate, get it through your head, and all problems are solved . First come first serve isn't true. I could be there fighting and salvaging my rats at the same time, and some **head will still show up and try to salvage my wrecks right out from under. Had it happen twice now. I just blow up the wrecks and let them have agro, but then I don't get the wrecks and usually it **es the other person off so they harrass me, IN MY MISSION, until it's complete. Griefer tactic ftw.
Aiko Intaki	Posted - 2008.09.09 12:53:00 - [67] CCP's stated position is that ninja looting is intended. People comparing wrecks and salvage to mission loot cans or asteroid fields aren't really comparing apples to apples; wrecks and salvage are their own entities. Consider wrecks "player spawned global content" as CCP does, and just learn not to be too terribly irritated by it. Where CCP fails with respect to ninja salvaging is in the meta-gaming which allows it to be performed virtually without consequence. I don't particularly mean flagging folks who salvage your wrecks; doing so would just lead to more fishing for missioner ships on the part of pirates and much, much more forum whining. I specifically am annoyed by how free ninja salvagers are from building persisting, negative reputations among missioners for their actions. As it's currently implemented, ninja salvaging has a low barrier to entry, allowing for trivially disposable alts and alt corps. The character investment in mission-crashing for wrecks needs to somehow be raised, such that ninja looters invest more in their characters, becoming less disposable. One proposal to this end which I've made in the past is to allow missioners to use the hacking skill to lock acceleration gates in missions such that it would provide a time sink to would-be ninja salvagers as a deterrent, while also adding the hacking skill as another SP investment for the ninja salvaging profession.
Immersive Immersive Technology Solutions	Posted - 2008.09.09 14:48:00 - [68] Got a corp harassing your space? War Dec! --- New to the API? GrabRaw XML It's coming...
procurement specialist	Posted - 2008.09.09 16:12:00 - [69] disclaimer i am just in high sec missioning until i get standings high enough to happy my r&d agents happy. i was making more isk just running the l3 missions than i was after i took the time to loot and salvage and getting my standings up faster. I asked several people in local if they wanted to salvage or loot my extrazaganza missions and they declined. you might try offering to let people come in an loot your missions and see if they think you are trying to scam them and leave you alone. or you could warp back to teh start and leave them with aggro. or you could do all that and then fit a claok so when they come back to the first room they give up when they don't find you after they had to warp out to.
Kahega Amielden Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2008.09.09 16:54:00 - [70] Quote: ok now your just being stupid, missions are given out to an individual not the entire solar system so the individual should have rights to their own missions salvagables. So? Just because they're given out to an individual means that you own the entire deadspace? Shit no. Quote: the reason people like me are in high sec is because we enjoy playing eve without pvp and would like to continue to do so without having to deal with ppl like you. If you don't like PVP maybe it's time to admit you don't like EVE. You already CAN avoid PVP, just only do missions. You're voluntarily engaging in PVP by trying to salvage. If you don't want to PVP, don't salvage. Quote: salvaging is not a "competitive profession" is a sorry way of using the system to get something for nothing. Yes it is. I have to compete with other people and the missionrunner himself for the salvage. And it's not "getting something for nothing" any more than missions are. Quote: First come first serve isn't true. I could be there fighting and salvaging my rats at the same time, and some **head will still show up and try to salvage my wrecks right out from under. Had it happen twice now. Okay? You evidently didn't get to the wrecks before he did otherwise you would have salvaged them. Quote: I just blow up the wrecks and let them have agro, but then I don't get the wrecks and usually it es the other person off so they harrass me, IN MY MISSION, until it's complete. No, chances are they find your complaining very entertaining and want to extract as much of it as they can Quote:** Griefer tactic ftw. Tis not griefing. They're telling the missioner that it's pointless to pop the wrecks so that they can ensure the future of their profession. It's no different than lowsec pirates who always honor ransoms.
Fullmetal Jackass	Posted - 2008.09.09 17:36:00 - [71] Edited by: Fullmetal Jackass on 09/09/2008 17:48:08 Originally by: Immersive Got a corp harassing your space? War Dec! How many times do we have to cover this? Most ninja looters, salvager, ect hide in npc corps. Gotta love game mechanics set up to reward pussies and cowards.
Fullmetal Jackass	Posted - 2008.09.09 17:43:00 - [72] Originally by: Kahega Amielden No, chances are they find your complaining very entertaining and want to extract as much of it as they can Tis not griefing. They're telling the missioner that it's pointless to pop the wrecks so that they can ensure the future of their profession. It's no different than lowsec pirates who always honor ransoms. You just defined greifing. Actions in which the main goal is to bother someone else.
Kahega Amielden Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2008.09.09 18:56:00 - [73] Quote: How many times do we have to cover this? Most ninja looters, salvager, ect hide in npc corps. Gotta love game mechanics set up to reward pussies and cowards. Yup. And it's not like missionrunners ever hide in NPC corps. Quote: You just defined greifing. Actions in which the main goal is to bother someone else. It's not the MAIN GOAL. The main goal is to make ISKies salvaging. Hearing people **, moan, and *** is just the very very sweet, delicious icing on top.
Fullmetal Jackass	Posted - 2008.09.09 19:10:00 - [74] Originally by: Kahega Amielden Yup. And it's not like missionrunners ever hide in NPC corps. I don't support this either. Anyone who's been in the game three months or better shouldn't be immune to war decs. . . Originally by: Kahega Amielden It's not the MAIN GOAL. The main goal is to make ISKies salvaging. Hearing people **, moan, and *** is just the very very sweet, delicious icing on top. That's not what you said a couple minutes ago. Let me requote you "No, chances are they find your complaining very entertaining and want to extract as much of it as they can " We know exactly why you salvage other people's wrecks.
Kahega Amielden Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2008.09.09 19:16:00 - [75] Context, FMJ, Context Quote: I just blow up the wrecks and let them have agro, but then I don't get the wrecks and usually it **es the other person off so they harrass me, IN MY MISSION, until it's complete. Is what you said. They don't do it because they're **ed at you, they do it to a) preserve their profession by making it pointless to pop wrecks and b) Taste the delicious tears that missioners love to give as they pop said wrecks. That's not why they salvage, it's why they sit there while the wrecks are popped and make you pop them all.
Fullmetal Jackass	Posted - 2008.09.09 19:27:00 - [76] I wouldn't give someone the satisfaction of telling them off in local. I pop the wrecks and just log sometimes, but if it's a mission where I have to retrieve an item and bring it back, I can't run the risk of someone else finishing it while I'm off line. Waiting around in my mission is most definately griefing. Anyone who comes into my combat zone should be fair game.
Kahega Amielden Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2008.09.09 19:35:00 - [77] Why is it -your- combat zone? The game spawned a mission. If CCP wanted instanced missions they could have, but they avoided that for a reason Salvaging is not something you're entitled to, and it's no one else's fault that you refuse to do the mission without getting to keep the salvage.
Trent Nichols Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2008.09.09 20:27:00 - [78] Originally by: Kahega Amielden Why is it -your- combat zone? The game spawned a mission. If CCP wanted instanced missions they could have, but they avoided that for a reason Salvaging is not something you're entitled to, and it's no one else's fault that you refuse to do the mission without getting to keep the salvage. I keep seeing this argument and its just silly. Its the mission runner's combat zone because it was spawned for him for his mission. Those are his wrecks just the same as that is his loot. They exist because he turned npcs into those wrecks. We all understand that CCP has called wrecks fair game but there is really no more reason for that to be so than there is to call the ore in miner's cans and the loot in a ratter's wrecks fair game. The first come first serve mechanic is a great way to clear space of abandoned wrecks but they should be abandoned first. Logistics deployables mean less grind and more pewpew!
Kahega Amielden Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2008.09.09 21:30:00 - [79] Quote: Its the mission runner's combat zone because it was spawned for him for his mission. Those are his wrecks just the same as that is his loot. They exist because he turned npcs into those wrecks. No, if it was the missionrunner's combat zone it would be instanced or the acceleration gate would require a key provided by the agent. It's not. People dropping by others' missions is an intended game mechanic because otherwise it would not function this way. As for wrecks: Looting flags people because LOOTING is not a separate profession. Looting is part of the rewards for popping the rat (Although I don't think looting should flat people anyway). Salvage is a separate profession that just happens to use those wrecks. It's not loot.
Major Aglaea	Posted - 2008.09.09 23:29:00 - [80] Originally by: Kahega Amielden Quote: ok now your just being stupid, missions are given out to an individual not the entire solar system so the individual should have rights to their own missions salvagables. So? Just because they're given out to an individual means that you own the entire deadspace? Shit no. Quote: the reason people like me are in high sec is because we enjoy playing eve without pvp and would like to continue to do so without having to deal with ppl like you. If you don't like PVP maybe it's time to admit you don't like EVE. You already CAN avoid PVP, just only do missions. You're voluntarily engaging in PVP by trying to salvage. If you don't want to PVP, don't salvage. Quote: salvaging is not a "competitive profession" is a sorry way of using the system to get something for nothing. Yes it is. I have to compete with other people and the missionrunner himself for the salvage. And it's not "getting something for nothing" any more than missions are. Quote: First come first serve isn't true. I could be there fighting and salvaging my rats at the same time, and some **head will still show up and try to salvage my wrecks right out from under. Had it happen twice now. Okay? You evidently didn't get to the wrecks before he did otherwise you would have salvaged them. Quote: I just blow up the wrecks and let them have agro, but then I don't get the wrecks and usually it es the other person off so they harrass me, IN MY MISSION, until it's complete. No, chances are they find your complaining very entertaining and want to extract as much of it as they can Quote:** Griefer tactic ftw. Tis not griefing. They're telling the missioner that it's pointless to pop the wrecks so that they can ensure the future of their profession. It's no different than lowsec pirates who always honor ransoms. wow, i pushed someones buttons
Fullmetal Jackass	Posted - 2008.09.09 23:43:00 - [81] Originally by: Kahega Amielden Why is it -your- combat zone? The game spawned a mission. If CCP wanted instanced missions they could have, but they avoided that for a reason Salvaging is not something you're entitled to, and it's no one else's fault that you refuse to do the mission without getting to keep the salvage. Actually there are a few missions you can't get into without a key from a previous mission. Would it make you feel better if they gave a key out for every mission and only the player who accepted the mission could get in?
Fullmetal Jackass	Posted - 2008.09.09 23:54:00 - [82] Originally by: Kahega Amielden As for wrecks: Looting flags people because LOOTING is not a separate profession. Looting is part of the rewards for popping the rat (Although I don't think looting should flat people anyway). Salvage is a separate profession that just happens to use those wrecks. It's not loot. As I recall, looting a wreck didnt use to flag you. Or was it just a very short flag duration? It's been a long time since I was a noob, and generally I respected other peoples wrecks so it didn't really matter to me. Point is, people used to consider "garbage man" to be a profession. They'd loot the wrecks left behind by other people. Now yer telling me it isn't and never was? I'm not against "garbage men" or salvagers. I was actually disapointed when they made secure cans dissapear after 30 day of inactivity rather then making them hackable at that point. One mans trash is another mans treasure and all that. I however, like to claim my salvage.
Dotard Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2008.09.10 12:31:00 - [83] Edited by: Dotard on 10/09/2008 12:31:45 All this forum whining has attracted the two headed ninja salvaging monster. ---------------
Jaketh Ivanes Amarr Imperial Servants	Posted - 2008.09.10 13:03:00 - [84] Originally by: Fullmetal Jackass Originally by: Jaketh Ivanes What is not true? It's the definition of salvage. What is not true, is your perception of it. So, to reiterate, get it through your head, and all problems are solved . First come first serve isn't true. I could be there fighting and salvaging my rats at the same time, and some **head will still show up and try to salvage my wrecks right out from under. Had it happen twice now. I just blow up the wrecks and let them have agro, but then I don't get the wrecks and usually it **es the other person off so they harrass me, IN MY MISSION, until it's complete. Griefer tactic ftw. That a mission is underway has no bearing on who is first on the salvage, as you don't get a que for salvaging. He was the first to successfully salvage the wreck, so he got the components. First come, first server still applies. That it's your mission only garantee you the loot, bounty and mission reward. By garantee, I mean you get an option to respond to loot/bounty thiefs and an option to share the rewards with friends.
Joe Starbreaker Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2008.09.10 16:38:00 - [85] Originally by: Quicksail I would gladly fight for my claims. If the salvager is in a corp then we can do something. If he's not, there is nothing we can do except suicide gank him (if we can, though not really a viable option). Why should he be safe from us? He should be safe because you are in high sec. That's why you're safe from him. You want to be safe from attack in your NPC corp in highsec but you want free right to kill people in defense of the "property" you "claim"? The game has places for that, but they are not found in 0.5-1.0. Run missions in lowsec or 0.0 if you want to "claim" stuff in space and are willing to fight for it.
Fullmetal Jackass	Posted - 2008.09.10 16:47:00 - [86] Originally by: Jaketh Ivanes That a mission is underway has no bearing on who is first on the salvage, as you don't get a que for salvaging. He was the first to successfully salvage the wreck, so he got the components. First come, first server still applies. Keep it up. The more people you **** off, the faster change will come.
Fullmetal Jackass	Posted - 2008.09.10 16:48:00 - [87] Why is "P1ss" censored but not "shit"?
Danjira Ryuujin Caldari	Posted - 2008.09.10 19:36:00 - [88] In deadspace, no one can hear you cry. Amarr - Annoying the Eve Community since 2005

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