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Falcon Not overpowered?

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Liang Nuren Perkone	Posted - 2008.09.05 22:16:00 - [31] Originally by: Kagura Nikon I can't beleive we see peopel whining about ecm beign weak or dampeners beign weak. I have only 2 words for those. TARGET PAINTERS! Torp Raven? I think a better word, though, is web after the web nerf. Minnie recons are going to suuuuck. -Liang -- I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is only temporary; the evil it does is permanent. -- Mahatma Gandhi
Corstaad Minmatar Vardr ok Lidskjalv Pirate Coalition	Posted - 2008.09.06 00:47:00 - [32] EW=CC for the WoW bg crowd. Ways to counter CC is CC or just get rid of them. Sense EvE is also the EFT game people choose DPS over a balanced setup. I just solved everyones problems with Nano/EW/Bigger Ships.
Chainsaw Plankton IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE	Posted - 2008.09.06 05:36:00 - [33] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton right, just in the idea phase, haven't gotten around to number crunching, and tbh I'm a wee bit lazy to do that then there is the issue of if it misses a jam and gets hit it is dead after 2 hits from just about anything, and it barely survives the first. falcons are also rather situational, as gang size goes up they seem to get less useful. but in them 3 man pirate gangs they are almost too good. Heh, really if damps on specialized ships were as useful as they really should be you wouldn't see so many Falcons in pirate gangs. -Liang maybe, but heh sitting in gategun range in a recon is hurty, or is that what you meant by useful
Gabriel Virtus	Posted - 2008.09.06 05:48:00 - [34] Edited by: Gabriel Virtus on 06/09/2008 05:49:21 No dude, having a recon that can disable 5 targets from 200km away isn't overpowered at all. Every other race can disable MAYBE 2 ships. Minmatar really disable ships, just pin them down. Flame on -GV
Chainsaw Plankton IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE	Posted - 2008.09.06 05:58:00 - [35] Originally by: Gabriel Virtus Edited by: Gabriel Virtus on 06/09/2008 05:49:21 No dude, having a recon that can disable 5 targets from 200km away isn't overpowered at all. Every other race can disable MAYBE 2 ships. Minmatar really disable ships, just pin them down. Flame on -GV maybe if you are fighting a frigate fleet. realistically it will disable 2, mess with 1, and fling poo at another, against battleships I wish I had that magic falcon that could perma jam 5 ships
BiggestT Caldari Space Oddysey Pupule 'Ohana	Posted - 2008.09.06 06:16:00 - [36] Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton Originally by: Atsuko Ratu Originally by: Liang Nuren That said, I think the thing that kills people about ECM is that you can't target for 20 seconds. Maybe we should just change the cycle time/duration on ECM to ~5s. -Liang 5 seconds? Even a 50% jam chance would literally perma jam a bs 10 seconds maybe, but it's not like 20 seconds is that long. It's also how long the ECM is useless if it misses a cycle, and that much longer to change to the interceptor that's suiciding toward you I would go with 5-10 seconds of jam, and a 20 second cycle timer hmmm or maybe make it ecm strength/sensor strength -> % of jam cycle time you are jammed. hmm, no i think that 15 seconds on jam and 20 second cycle wld be better, then ppl still have a chance but falcon isnt completely vulenrable. Otherwise just leave it as is, it aint that bad Proudly annoying FC's since 2007
Satura Most Wanted INC	Posted - 2008.09.06 07:29:00 - [37] I wanted to post something, but Liang already said that. Only thing left for me to say is: "Less forum ****ing please, more pew pew!" Just play the game. There are ways of dealing with everything, stop crying for nerfs every time you get owned. Wondering if you ever thing that the problem is yourself and not some insanely imbalanced mod/ship? You will die anyway, even when everything is nerfed.
SoftRevolution	Posted - 2008.09.06 13:49:00 - [38] Edited by: SoftRevolution on 06/09/2008 13:51:35 Originally by: Ethan Hunte Think again. Sensor stength of 101 with two tech 2 eccms on a combat recon ship and still get perma jammed. Yeah chance based my ass. the only recon ship in game with a definitive electronic warfare that (since the boost) works 100%. whine whine whine lolwhat 101 sensor strength? That's like a 12% chance to jam per best named jammer Caldari. Statistically neither a Falcon nor a Rook could literally permajam you even if they brought a full rack of best named Caldari jammers (unlikely). Did I just get trolled? As for "5 targets permajammed from 200km away", I wish EVE RELATED CONTENT
Atsuko Ratu Caldari VSP Corp.	Posted - 2008.09.06 14:06:00 - [39] Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton I would go with 5-10 seconds of jam, and a 20 second cycle timer Ya, this would effectively destroy ECM
Akuma Tsukai Amarr	Posted - 2008.09.06 16:23:00 - [40] well that is the purpose of this tipic, is it not ---- Drones eat everything. Trust me.
Evanade Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.09.06 16:30:00 - [41] Originally by: Gabriel Virtus Edited by: Gabriel Virtus on 06/09/2008 05:49:21 No dude, having a recon that can disable 5 targets from 200km away isn't overpowered at all. Every other race can disable MAYBE 2 ships. Minmatar really disable ships, just pin them down. Flame on -GV your tears of incompetence, they are delicious --------------------------- sok alt - main got banzored
Rajere No Trademark Obsidian Empire	Posted - 2008.09.07 01:12:00 - [42] I fly a falcon pretty much exclusively now. I'll be the first to admit they're pretty overpowered in small gang warfare in general, though they're less effective as your gang sizes get up towards fleet sized. eccm mods are due for a buff. The falcon could probably make do with a 10%/lvl str bonus rather than 20%, in exchange for the covert cloak. This gives the rook a reason to exist, though i'd bet the falcon would still be favored 9/10 (rather than the 10/10). Combination of slightly weaker jam str on falcons and buffing ECCM mods to where they should have been all along would go a long way towards fixing the "falcon" problem. For ECCM, they need a flat str increase per mod fitted (mid/lows), stacking penalized normally, instead of a % increase. Generally speaking, as you move up in ship classes from frigs to caps, the number of overall module slots increases as well as their sensor strengths. This means an inty that sacrifices one of its only 3 mid slots gets jack from using an eccm while a BS or carrier with 11-15 mid/low slots available gets huge increases from fitting them. NOTR How to Fail at Eve
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2008.09.07 01:25:00 - [43] Originally by: Rajere eccm mods are due for a buff. The falcon could probably make do with a 10%/lvl str bonus rather than 20%, in exchange for the covert cloak. This gives the rook a reason to exist, though i'd bet the falcon would still be favored 9/10 (rather than the 10/10). Fine, just as soon as the Rapier gets half its web range bonus removed, the Arazu loses half its scram range bonus (or all of its damp bonus), and the Pilgrim... well, the Pilgrim already had its cargo size bonus removed for useless NOS and TD bonuses, so I guess we don't really need to nerf it. The Rook/Falcon "problem" is no more of a problem than any of the other useless combat recons. As for ECM cycle time reduction: this is a Falcon BOOST. While you might not be frustrated by 20 second jamming, you now have two problems: 1) Re-locking becomes a more significant problem. For example, with the 5 seconds proposed, a Falcon's ECM would be twice as effective. Since the target will spend virtually all of 5 seconds trying to re-lock something, the Falcon could alternate jamming on two sets of targets, effectively taking them all out of the fight. 2) Missing a jam cycle or picking the wrong target is no longer a big problem. With 20 second jam cycles, a Falcon that misses a cycle or gets surprised by another target will face a long wait before it can jam again. With 5 second cycle times, there's effectively no wait. And jam time less than cycle time? HELL NO. This would completely break the Falcon and make it absolutely useless. It would be suicide to fly the ship, as even a successful jam will still give the target 5 seconds to shoot the Falcon (unless the Falcon saves half its jammers to cover that 5 second window). As I've said before, the Falcon is fine. Stop trying to fit for max EFT damage and you'll have no problems with them.
Spaztick Canadian Imperial Armaments EVESpace	Posted - 2008.09.07 03:15:00 - [44] As for nano nerf: this is a Vagabond BOOST. While you might not be frustrated by 20 dps, you now have two problems: 1) Avoiding damage becomes a more significant problem. For example, with the nano nerf, a Vagabond's MWD would be twice as effective. Since the target will spend virtually all of 5 minutes trying to kill something, the Vagabond could alternate tackling on two sets of targets, effectively taking them all out of the fight. 2) Missing a MWD cycle or picking the wrong target is no longer a big problem. With nos/neut changes, a Vagabond that misses a cycle or gets surprised by another target will face a long wait before it can MWD again. With instant kill of MWD cycle times, there's effectively no wait. And MWD speed than missile speed? HELL NO. This would completely break the Vagabond and make it absolutely useless. It would be suicide to fly the ship, as even a successful tackle will still give the target 2 seconds to shoot the Vagabond (unless the Vagabond saves half its cap to cover that warp-away window). As I've said before, the Vagabond is fine. Stop trying to fit for max EFT damage and you'll have no problems with them. lolwut But seriously, more people should have some type of spacer in their sigs to show it's not part of the post.
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2008.09.07 04:05:00 - [45] Can I have some of what you're smoking?
Kiki Arnolds Caldari	Posted - 2008.09.07 04:30:00 - [46] The biggest problem with balancing the falcon is that 100% of its combat ability is devoted to its ECM... It has effectively no dps, no drones, no tackle, no logistics, and at most a 1600 plate for a tank (many don't even fit that). The vast majority of other ships contribute in more than one way, dps + tackle, ewar + dps, dps + logistics, and almost all have real tanks whether speed or damage tanks... Sure the falcon does have some turret/launcher slots, good luck surviving close enough to use em... ç¦
Angelina Arwen	Posted - 2008.09.07 07:21:00 - [47] ^ That is true and spot on what you just said. However the caldari recons are just way to good for their role, which is a good thing. They do what they are suppose to do. Ecm strength isn't really the problem here, its the range. Disabling up to 5 targets 200km away is overpowered because other ships cannot do that. Other recons can only disable one or two targets, and they do that at a much closer range, and some of them are not good enough to even do that. Thats the point, Caldari recons are overpowered because other recons are imbalanced.
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2008.09.07 07:50:00 - [48] Originally by: Angelina Arwen ^ That is true and spot on what you just said. However the caldari recons are just way to good for their role, which is a good thing. They do what they are suppose to do. Ecm strength isn't really the problem here, its the range. Disabling up to 5 targets 200km away is overpowered because other ships cannot do that. Other recons can only disable one or two targets, and they do that at a much closer range, and some of them are not good enough to even do that. Thats the point, Caldari recons are overpowered because other recons are imbalanced. And I will repeat what I've said far too many times already: quit whining that the other recons are not as good at being a Falcon as the Falcon is. This is not their job. Once you look at what they are actually supposed to do, the difference is a lot less (though the Arazu could use a damp strength increase). The Rapier is an offensive recon. Why disable a target when you can make everyone in your gang hit it for full damage and insta-pop it? While the Rapier may or may not take a hit from the nano nerf, balancing the Rapier is a problem independent of the Falcon, the two ships just have completely different roles. The Arazu is an ewar/tackler hybrid with some dps on the side. Unlike the Falcon, its job is to disable the target AND warp scramble it. Complaining that the dedicated ewar ship is better at the job than the hybrid is just stupid and completely misses the point of what the two ships are meant to do. Fix the damage done by the script nerf, and the Arazu goes back to being better than the Falcon for solo/small-gang fights. The Pilgrim is an awesome covert ops hauler, something the Falcon and its pathetic three low slots (all of them required for SDAs) can not do. The fact that it sucks at doing anything else has nothing to do with the Falcon. Delete every Falcon and you STILL won't have a Pilgrim setup that doesn't involve cargo expanders. The combat recons are just sucky versions of their cloaking counterparts, and are therefore irrelevant.
Rajere No Trademark Obsidian Empire	Posted - 2008.09.07 09:45:00 - [49] Quote: The biggest problem with balancing the falcon is that 100% of its combat ability is devoted to its ECM... It has effectively no dps, no drones, no tackle, no logistics, and at most a 1600 plate for a tank (many don't even fit that). The vast majority of other ships contribute in more than one way, dps + tackle, ewar + dps, dps + logistics, and almost all have real tanks whether speed or damage tanks... Sure the falcon does have some turret/launcher slots, good luck surviving close enough to use em... ç¦ stupidest argument ever. I had written up a 3 paragraph rant pointing out the idiocy of this line of thought, but the forums ate it. If you can't figure out why this 'argument' is ******ed by yourself, I may remember retype it all later. NOTR How to Fail at Eve
whysoserious	Posted - 2008.09.07 10:34:00 - [50] Originally by: Merin Ryskin The Rapier is an offensive recon. Why disable a target when you can make everyone in your gang hit it for full damage and insta-pop it? While the Rapier may or may not take a hit from the nano nerf, balancing the Rapier is a problem independent of the Falcon, the two ships just have completely different roles. The Arazu is an ewar/tackler hybrid with some dps on the side. Unlike the Falcon, its job is to disable the target AND warp scramble it. Complaining that the dedicated ewar ship is better at the job than the hybrid is just stupid and completely misses the point of what the two ships are meant to do. Fix the damage done by the script nerf, and the Arazu goes back to being better than the Falcon for solo/small-gang fights. The Pilgrim is an awesome covert ops hauler, something the Falcon and its pathetic three low slots (all of them required for SDAs) can not do. The fact that it sucks at doing anything else has nothing to do with the Falcon. Delete every Falcon and you STILL won't have a Pilgrim setup that doesn't involve cargo expanders. But rapiers are getting nerfed! And wow, the pilgrim is an awesome covert ops hauler, because thats the reason why I trained for that ship. (sarcasm) Cadari recons are awesome at what they do, they are the perfect ship for their role, they have a huge advantage and have their weaknesses, where as the rapier is balance (atm), arazu is underpowered, pilgrim is dog shit.
Kagura Nikon Minmatar Infinity Enterprises	Posted - 2008.09.07 11:53:00 - [51] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Kagura Nikon I can't beleive we see peopel whining about ecm beign weak or dampeners beign weak. I have only 2 words for those. TARGET PAINTERS! Torp Raven? I think a better word, though, is web after the web nerf. Minnie recons are going to suuuuck. -Liang notice how broken that ewar is when the ship tah bennefits from it is from an enemy faction adn is the only ewar that have ZERO usefulness without another specific ship around. IF anything Target Painters Must be buffed. I still support the concept to make target painted ships be targeteable even by ships that are cm jammed. In other words Ships A B C D and E. Ship E Jamms ship C. Ship C cannot lock his enemies A and B. But if D target paints A, then C can lock A but still cannot lock B. That would balance ECM and give Target Painters a real usefulness. ------------------------------------------------- If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
Sexiest Beast Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2008.09.07 11:58:00 - [52] "1 in a million chances happen 9 times out of 10" I always found this quote relevant when thinking about ECM
Rajere No Trademark Obsidian Empire	Posted - 2008.09.07 12:02:00 - [53] target painters are fine, and rapiers/huginns will start fitting atleast 1 after the nanonerf. It really depends on where everything shakes out regarding relative speeds if dual webs will be needed anymore, so they may even fit 2. NOTR How to Fail at Eve
Alt altski	Posted - 2008.09.07 15:37:00 - [54] Tbh it does need a nerf. Especially if the speed changes come through, they are going to be extremely hard to get out to ... extremely hard to not get jammed by and just be plain op like now. And all them complaints about but its the falcons only job .. it insta pops if it gets shot at. Well erm arazu's insta pop when they get shot at .. only difference is if they get locked down they cant jam and gtfo. Maybe if falcons range was 40k optimal with max skills and 20k falloff you could at least fit a drone range unit and counter them IF you get a lock. And remember you can always fit a shield extender have a little tank ... just like the rapier has to do ... just like the curse .. and sometimes the arazu they have to sacrifice their ewar to survive under 50.
Atsuko Ratu Caldari VSP Corp.	Posted - 2008.09.07 15:43:00 - [55] Edited by: Atsuko Ratu on 07/09/2008 15:44:11 Originally by: Alt altski Maybe if falcons range was 40k optimal with max skills and 20k falloff you could at least fit a drone range unit and counter them IF you get a lock. Yep, we all need a drone range unit to use them out to 60km. But seriously, 60km? Falcons would become useless in anything higher than 3v3 And ya, target painters are stupid effective, tbh. 3 on an orbiting ceptor will pretty much destroy it
Alt altski	Posted - 2008.09.07 15:48:00 - [56] Originally by: Atsuko Ratu Edited by: Atsuko Ratu on 07/09/2008 15:44:11 Originally by: Alt altski Maybe if falcons range was 40k optimal with max skills and 20k falloff you could at least fit a drone range unit and counter them IF you get a lock. Yep, we all need a drone range unit to use them out to 60km. But seriously, 60km? Falcons would become useless in anything higher than 3v3 And ya, target painters are stupid effective, tbh. 3 on an orbiting ceptor will pretty much destroy it Yeah lets all fit 3 target painters to our ships ... they are so practical in EVERY situation just like jamming ? And no they wouldnt become useless ..... they would just need to fit a tank ... not have full jamming gear therefore not being super op.
Atsuko Ratu Caldari VSP Corp.	Posted - 2008.09.07 15:55:00 - [57] Edited by: Atsuko Ratu on 07/09/2008 15:55:05 Originally by: Alt altski Yeah lets all fit 3 target painters to our ships ... they are practical in EVERY situation just like jamming ? And no they wouldnt become useless ..... they would just need to fit a tank ... not have full jamming gear (5-7 mids, 3 lows, 2 rigs) therefore being pretty much useless. Fixed. And yes, TPs heavily increase damage and eliminate tracking issues. They are extremely useful to any ship using a weapon (more so for turrets; mainly because missiles are hardcapped on velocity/size, while an increase in size makes it easier for all turrets to track) Because a RR BS gang can't fit 1 TP per ship. Ya, that would be unthinkable.
Kagura Nikon Minmatar Infinity Enterprises	Posted - 2008.09.07 23:03:00 - [58] Originally by: Atsuko Ratu Edited by: Atsuko Ratu on 07/09/2008 15:44:11 Originally by: Alt altski Maybe if falcons range was 40k optimal with max skills and 20k falloff you could at least fit a drone range unit and counter them IF you get a lock. Yep, we all need a drone range unit to use them out to 60km. But seriously, 60km? Falcons would become useless in anything higher than 3v3 And ya, target painters are stupid effective, tbh. 3 on an orbiting ceptor will pretty much destroy it this is among the most IDIOTIC things i ever read in this forums. How useful is a ceptors with 3 ECM on it? yeahh all yout theory down into drain. Target paitners are ALMSOT usefull ian very very limited situation. And don't forget they have 40 km range, a ceptor wil be out of range in 6 seconds. So Shut up! Anyoen that say Target painters are fine and with same parameters dare to say ECM don't need to benerfed should loose driver license due to BLINDNESS! ------------------------------------------------- If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
Atsuko Ratu Caldari VSP Corp.	Posted - 2008.09.08 00:57:00 - [59] Edited by: Atsuko Ratu on 08/09/2008 00:58:37 Originally by: Kagura Nikon this is among the most IDIOTIC things i ever read in this forums. I may be an idiot, but at least I take the time to attempt to type in English. Originally by: Kagura Nikon How useful is a ceptors with 3 ECM on it? yeahh all yout theory down into drain. Target paitners are ALMSOT usefull ian very very limited situation. I can't take it! The ecm... it's... aaaah!! 'splode FOOOOOOOX!!! -50 dkp if you fail to catch the meaning, Originally by: Kagura Nikon And don't forget they have 40 km range, a ceptor wil be out of range in 6 seconds. So Shut up! Anyoen that say Target painters are fine and with same parameters dare to say ECM don't need to benerfed should loose driver license due to BLINDNESS! 40km? Why, that happens to be well within scram range! I dare say a 'ceptor outside 40km is probably not doing a good job of tackling you! Almost like it had the same effect as ECM, 'cept you know, the 'ceptors in structure and not just orbiting your falcon providing a warp in.
Kagura Nikon Minmatar Infinity Enterprises	Posted - 2008.09.08 09:55:00 - [60] Maybe you want to type in portuguese, german, or russian then. I can speak those languages as well. Any of them you feel confortable typing in then? Second. Limited mindset ftl you have. An interceptor can be at 20 40 even 150 km rom you and stil be doign its job, by beign at 20 km from another ship! Or you never ever saw how ECM ships operate? Disablign tacklers from far 100 km away? ------------------------------------------------- If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough

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