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Dr Click
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Posted - 2008.09.08 16:04:00 -
[31]
I have read this post twice and I completely love the idea.
Balancing would be interresting to see, but as Banlish herself writes, that's up to DEV's
I really hope that CCP gives this a really thorough look and wink their approving eye upon it!
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frsd
Caldari
steelers inc
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Posted - 2008.09.08 16:15:00 -
[32]
Edited by: frsd on 08/09/2008 16:15:41
A very complex idea, it would take a alot of brain crushing to implement this though.
Basically i like that it has some associasion to the real world, a good background story is always a nice read 
I just have 2 Points that i would like to highlight:
1.) Although i find the ore rates a little drasticaly high, 500% on Veldspar would crash the market tbqh(Trit at about 0.4 Isk p.U. then), bit too overpowered and would give big Alliances that own 0.0 Space and high-end Ores a big advantage. That point should be looked at a little more carefully and everyone also has to realise what impact such a change would have on the market.
2.) Empire mining would more or less become useless since this change would definately let the mineral and ore prices fall. This although might make low-sec/0.0 more populated with Alliances and Corps having big Mining Op's -> also giving some people that i dont have to mention some juicy targets 
The idea should only, if ever realised, be apllied to low-end ores though, not giving the big Allainces and Corp's that own vast amounts of 0.0 Space a big advantag, additionaly to the ones they already have.
Note: Summary would be handy 
Only my 2 Cents
frsd
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Varinia Flavius
The Phalanx Expeditionary Conglomerate
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Posted - 2008.09.08 17:25:00 -
[33]
I think This would add some interest in the mining profession and team work requirement and is a good idea in general. It would be a way to compete agains the macroer in the mining industry.
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Quesa
Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2008.09.08 17:27:00 -
[34]
Edited by: Quesa on 08/09/2008 17:30:11
Edited by: Quesa on 08/09/2008 17:28:35
I love the idea of mining teams and forcing these high risk operations to be more coordinated beyond tank|miner|hauler.
 Quote:
2.) Empire mining would more or less become useless since this change would definately let the mineral and ore prices fall.
Highsec or "Invuln-space" should not be worth much in terms of mining. There is virtually no risk in mining highsec, especially if you are in an NPC corp.
Quote:
I can't find the 'Blast mining' quote your talking about however, does anyone have it?
I believe it was an idea from another player in the game that was looked at by CCP, it's in this forum area somewhere...don't have a link myself but the idea DOES exist and I DO remember reading it.
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Raketefrau
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2008.09.08 18:09:00 -
[35]
tl;ra.
Good stuff here, I hope CCP takes a look at it.
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procurement specialist
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Posted - 2008.09.08 18:37:00 -
[36]
1 yes empire mining is now completely worthless. it shouldn't be penalized more than mission running in high sec is. they are both viable alternatives depending on preference.
2 i apologize if i didn't see it but my one problem is that just mining more ore cause transporting problems. unless you are now adding molten veld to your cargo with .1 m3 volume that 333 units refine to 5000 trit or something.
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frsd
Caldari
steelers inc
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Posted - 2008.09.08 18:39:00 -
[37]
Edited by: frsd on 08/09/2008 18:45:23
Edited by: frsd on 08/09/2008 18:43:24
Edited by: frsd on 08/09/2008 18:42:38
Quote:
2.) Empire mining would more or less become useless since this change would definately let the mineral and ore prices fall.
Highsec or "Invuln-space" should not be worth much in terms of mining. There is virtually no risk in mining highsec, especially if you are in an NPC corp.
Well, it is true that high-sec has a very "unbalanced" Reward/Risk Ratio, but you also have to see(probably also the way that CCP sees it) that when entering the World of EVE you start in empire, and the begining is the hardest, and that the only way to proceed without help from people or friends(yes you should find friends asap, but it can take a few days... specially when you begin on a trial account) you have to activate that basic miner. Surely also the Ship prices will drop drastically which would compensate the worth of the ore you mine. But things that would not change, such as Skill books will be the same, slowing down the speed of progressment of a newbie drastically if he goes by the career of a miner.
You have to see the hole picture, and eve is a very very complex game. Changing something drastically will cause a chain reaction, which might in the end collapse the entire system. It is a very nice idea tbqh, but i couldnt possibly think of way to implement the current state of this idea. 
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Clansworth
Burning Sky Labs
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Posted - 2008.09.08 19:21:00 -
[38]
Edited by: Clansworth on 08/09/2008 19:24:34
I think a smoother semi-solution would be to implement some illegal mining crystals. Pirate faction items, that have a significantly increased yield (only availbe for mid/low-ends), but are illegal in empire. Think Hydro-mining during the california gold rush. Massive water cannons jetting away a hill-side, then just sift the flow for gold. Environmentally devastating, and eventually, very illegal... but mighty efficient! This would give a REASON for med-large scale low-end mining in low/null sec, and provide a bit more 'flavor' to the game. the mining rate wouldnt' be sohigh that low-ends were more profitable than the high-ends in null, but it might bring them a bit closer.
Some advantages of this system, is it is VERY easy to implement, and it would drive down low-end prices a bit (to the point where macroers might stop losing money, unless they went to low-sec, which probably wouldn't happen. Driving down low-end prices might SOUND like a bad idea, as it might hurt the noobs, but at the same time, drops in low-ends hve a significant deflationary effect, causing the prices of the tech 1 equipment to drop as well, ultimately HELPING the noobs.
New Prospector Class |
procurement specialist
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Posted - 2008.09.08 21:21:00 -
[39]
Edited by: procurement specialist on 08/09/2008 21:22:08
A short version of the illgal miners is that they simply emit unusual radiation. I porposed a 0.0 highly radiating beam and a reduced emisions beam that wouldw work in low sec a couple months ago.
what i would prefer is not a yield increase because of the increased logistics and everything else required. I want all systems in a region to have some flavor of whatever ore is in that region. arkonor at 10% yield in 1.0 space and trit and 5-10x refine in -1.0 space. you establish bands, a start point for each roid per region which has already been done, and let the computer math it out. simple and clean and this way no matter what mineral prices are then ore is low sec with higher yield always outperform depleted high sec belts.
if a high sec miner prefers to mine all of there own ore they can go after 5-10% arkonor and mining veld for trit in deep 0.0 nets more trit than ratting. if you make the scale asymetric then people will focuse on different roids in different regions for maximum profit if 100% omber is worth more than 20% arkonor in 1 region but another region has 50% arkonor at .5 which beats omber. numbers are completely imbalanced and anyone complaining obviously did not read the last sentence.
i would put something like .1, .25, .5, 1, 1.5, 2.5, 5, 8 or 10 for the numbers.
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Karanth
Gallente
Eve's Brothers of Destiny
FOUNDATI0N
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Posted - 2008.09.09 07:11:00 -
[40]
OP is a god.
---
Wheel of Whineage |
Banlish
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2008.09.09 15:03:00 -
[41]
Originally by: frsd
1.) Although i find the ore rates a little drasticaly high, 500% on Veldspar would crash the market tbqh(Trit at about 0.4 Isk p.U. then), bit too overpowered and would give big Alliances that own 0.0 Space and high-end Ores a big advantage. That point should be looked at a little more carefully and everyone also has to realise what impact such a change would have on the market.
The reason this works is you have to look at all those things that would make people say 'wait a minute'. Basically yes, you will be getting more trit. However even with the O.R.E. Molten ore transports or even Rorqual compressing the molten ore (which would give a better compression then regular ore gets through a Rorqual atm). These, in the end, are still low ends. Yes you'll have people moving trit back into empire and around for building. But many times people will find it easier to build it nearby where they mine it. So we'd have the market hubs spread out a bit and I don't believe it would move trit down to 0.4. As I believe, Midas will get more people INTO production then out. So that is another method of keeping prices reasonable. However the levels CAN be tweaked, the idea isn't set in stone as I said. I do hope CCP will look at the idea however.
Originally by: frsd
2.) Empire mining would more or less become useless since this change would definately let the mineral and ore prices fall. This although might make low-sec/0.0 more populated with Alliances and Corps having big Mining Op's -> also giving some people that i dont have to mention some juicy targets
Some ores would become worth less then others, but they wouldn't become useless, moving around large amounts of minerals would take people out of the belts and hauling 5+ freighters worth of minerals would quickly make players establish newer market hubs. It would also encourage players to get into low sec for better ores, even newer players would try to cherry pick the good stuff like omber and kernite that would be ravaged in empire. The other way to fix it, would be to get the marcoeers out of the game. An account that mines for 20+ hours straight 7 days a week for months on end should be flagged. I'm sorry, but that's definitely not a 'hardcore player' it's a macro and this can be tracked.
Originally by: frsd
The idea should only, if ever realised, be apllied to low-end ores though, not giving the big Allainces and Corp's that own vast amounts of 0.0 Space a big advantag, additionaly to the ones they already have.
Well the numbers I presented can obviously be tweaked. The who idea would be that you can indeed mine the 'heavy/dense' ores of ark, bist, and crok. But with all the extra deployment, work and teamwork needed it would be easier to just mine them with hulks. After all 5% wouldn't be worth the work. Tho if CCP decided that it was too overpowered, np, make the ABC ores not able to be mined by this method.
Originally by: frsd
Note: Summary would be handy [/i]
Your right, and I'm going to add a summary in the first post shortly. Something I guess I forgot in the posting of this idea.
Atlas Head Diplomat
CEO - Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Carebear
Pvper?!?!? |
Banlish
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2008.09.09 15:13:00 -
[42]
Originally by: procurement specialist
1 yes empire mining is now completely worthless. it shouldn't be penalized more than mission running in high sec is. they are both viable alternatives depending on preference.
I don't believe this will penalize the miners in high sec to a super large degree. It might make them move a tad to supply minerals to different areas. But the answer to your next point I believe explains why they shouldn't take a massive hit.
Originally by: procurement specialist
2 i apologize if i didn't see it but my one problem is that just mining more ore cause transporting problems. unless you are now adding molten veld to your cargo with .1 m3 volume that 333 units refine to 5000 trit or something.
There is a better Compression rate on molten ore compared to regular ore. So using a Rorqual with this is practically required. If not, yes you get a large amount of low ends but moving them will take a great deal of time.
Getting back to that basis in real world 'thoughts' minerals in real life can be extracted MUCH easier then they can be transported. We have machines that can fill a 70 ton truck in a single scoop. Yet no matter what we do, we are having problems making the trucks that haul it any bigger since tires and roads can't support them.
As such this would make sense, people could indeed get a large amount of ore and minerals. But moving it wouldn't be quick or easy. As such the game would have to have it's hubs 'spread out', yes there will always be a few people that move 10 freighter loads of trit across empire from Khanid all the way to The Forge to make .20 isk more per unit.
There are people in this game that think that afking like that will always be a great way of making profits and maybe their right. But there will be a back log created, or people will start buying freighters like crazy to take advantage of the extra minerals and the prices will stay high. Couple that idea with MIDAS, and the new O.R.E. ships itself in this series and you'd have a massive need for minerals.
Atlas Head Diplomat
CEO - Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Carebear
Pvper?!?!? |
procurement specialist
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Posted - 2008.09.09 16:24:00 -
[43]
nm. i misread that. you are making the rorq practically required instead of merely helpful for this method.
my problem was that currently 2 hulks can keep a well fit ittyV going. multiply this amount by 5 and you need so many haulers more than miners that you would still hit a wall quickly.
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frsd
Caldari
steelers inc
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Posted - 2008.09.09 16:30:00 -
[44]
As a small addition i would like to add if it fit that such radiation bubbles also did damage. Not much but more or less based on the current gas clouds idea, surely not that much damage.
This would add a small addition in planning such operations, since all the ships in the radiation bubble would require a small tank.
Surely
this could also be used as a defence mechanism, which might be a little unbalanced and make carebears to grow too big teeth , m
my stats i am currently think of are:
100-450 Thermal damage(Radiation), according to the size of the bubble(Smallest
100dmg, biggest 450dmg) <- Stats are not graved into stone either.
Every 20s-40s(Random or fixed value, find it a sensible "frequency")
This would be another addition to the backstory since these bubble have radition, which has proven not to be very healthy 
With these changes though the bubbles would really haev to be limited to be only able to set one up if there is ore in its radius -> not making it a solobbqpwndevice on gates 
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Copyleft
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Posted - 2008.09.09 16:59:00 -
[45]
Edited by: Copyleft on 09/09/2008 16:59:42
Edited by: Copyleft on 09/09/2008 16:59:06
I love the idea, but I would only make it for 0.1-0.4, not 0.0 because the problem of low-sec would remain.
No one mines in low-sec, everyone does in 0.0 or empire, so what about only doing it for low-sec? Miners would be happy, Pirates would be happy, uhmmm.. Big alliances that own 0.0 would not
Just my opinion, love
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Banlish
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2008.09.09 17:13:00 -
[46]
Originally by: procurement specialist
nm. i misread that. you are making the rorq practically required instead of merely helpful for this method.
my problem was that currently 2 hulks can keep a well fit ittyV going. multiply this amount by 5 and you need so many haulers more than miners that you would still hit a wall quickly.
Fsd nailed the response perfectly. The rorqual is indeed intended to be used in the belt and not the POS. It can haul 135,000m3, which would occur quite regularly with this method.
Also the O.R.E. haulers I mentioned would be able to haul molten ore only (as their internal lasers to keep the ore 'heated' would destroy all normal cargo) and those haulers could be 75,000m3 to 150,000m3. They would be able to bridge the gap at the mining site itself, but using a hauler like that to carry the ore 10+ jumps to a refinery outpost.... Not so much.
In 0.0 and the rare low sec mining Rorquals are pretty essential anyway. They make the ore smaller, so why wouldn't people use them? Also it should be expected that people would hit a wall semi quickly, by design moving vast amounts of minerals all over the game has been hit (mineral compression anyone?) so it really shouldn't be easy without some work, logistical planning or some teamwork.
Originally by: Copyleft
Edited by: Copyleft on 09/09/2008 16:59:42
Edited by: Copyleft on 09/09/2008 16:59:06
I love the idea, but I would only make it for 0.1-0.4, not 0.0 because the problem of low-sec would remain.
No one mines in low-sec, everyone does in 0.0 or empire, so what about only doing it for low-sec? Miners would be happy, Pirates would be happy, uhmmm.. Big alliances that own 0.0 would not
Just my opinion, love
I think people in empire would indeed go into low sec to mine with this method. It makes low sec profitable. And the main reason people don't mine at the moment in low sec is the risk.
Why would you risk 500 mill to 3 billion in gear if you could make the exact same profits in empire with no risk at all? That's why we have macroers(sp?) all over empire draining every system them can and selling the minerals.
I believe this type of mining and the equipment listed would work best if we removed asteroid belts from game and made scannable belts only.
This would mean macroers would have a harder time finding ore, which would decrease the mineral supply. Then add to that, you have players saying "we could make 60% to 85% of what we'd make mining abc in 0.0 in low sec, why not give it a try?"
Risk isn't there atm in empire, so if you give people a chance at potential profit in low sec. They might, just might decide to move out there and start working it for a chance at that level of income.
In 0.0, something this complex would be a juicy target. You'd move rorquals into the belt more often, the deployable bubbles are a target. The can's of ore would be a target, the entire op would be a target and it wouldn't be hard to 'spot' someone radiation pulse mining. The belts would have massive gaps in them and 'cooling ore' could appear on the overview. All signs that while mining would increase for low ends, the risk would increase as well.
Great ideas in this thread, please keep them coming.
Atlas Head Diplomat
CEO - Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Carebear
Pvper?!?!? |
Straight Chillen
Gallente
Solar Wind
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Posted - 2008.09.09 19:21:00 -
[47]
I like this idea alot, Its got merit, and with some tweakin to could definitly work.
But what I don't get is why some people think this shouldn't be abled to be done in 0.0 space. I mean really its "lawless" so how do u prohibit something in a lawless area?
_
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Thoran Karlien
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2008.09.09 20:27:00 -
[48]
As promised I'll post here...
Starting with the idea I made a diffrent system thinking that making ores more manageble with heating is how our current miners already work.
First of all I'd remove the whole m3 per cycle of the current miner and add an energy per cycle variable to each miner. Also add a heat resistance variable to the ores. Lower for lower end ores, a lot higher for high end ores.
So if you are mining with a basic miner you will see no changes in cycle time or amount of ore gained. In fact you won't see any difference if using strip miner either.
I'd put the bubble on a ship. Kind of Heavy Interdictor like except it catches asteroids. The bubble is basicly a storage for molten rock until it gets further moved. You could mount these bubbles on a big ship, perhaps even capable of tractoring in whole asteroids into the bubble to be heated.
Important for the bubble are two things, heat and amount of ore in it. Big bubbles can take more amount and less heat, small ones more heat but less amount.
Next you have power plant ships. These ships supply the energy needed to heat the bubble up and keep it running. They can also act as relay ships so they move molten rock with brute force from asteroids into the bubble so increasing the effective radius of the bubble.
Then you got your normal mining ships. These use a new laser that can be attuned to remove one kind of ore from the plasma within the bubble and cooling it down to normal ore in the process. As the rocks are already melted you safe time on the heating part of your cycle and thus make the specialized lasers a lot faster than from your standard strip miner. Higher end ores take a lot longer to cool down again, so the cycle time for high end ores would be a bit longer than for the lower end ones.
And lastly you got ships that can suck the plasma from the bubble and fill it in special bottles. These bottles would only be refinable on special POS equipment as they are pretty hazardous and so the standard refining facilities are not up to scratch. Or scratch the bottle ships completly if you are not a fan of better ore compression.
The power plant and bubble ships need to keep a close eye on the bubble. It needs a specific temperature or the rocks won't melt and not too much ore in the bubble at once. Adding more ore would drop the temperature depending on the amount of ore already in the bubble. If the temperature gets too high the lower end ores get too much energized and escape the bubble. If you put too much ore into the bubble or make it too hot or the bubble gets damaged too much by some bad people you run into the risk of getting a 'miners doomsday'. Basicly a very strong energy and matter pulse emptying the bubble and damaging and destroying ships in a large area.
So your radiation mining operation with the aim to clear one belt completly would start with a big bubble. Lower end roids would either be towed into the bottle by the bubble ship, or moved into it with the power plant ships.
These power plant ships also keep the temperatur constant for the lower end ores while some hulks will pull ore out of the bubble, cooling it down and jettison it for the haulers.
As the op continues the bubble gets smaller and hotter as the higher end roids are being fed into it.
The new equipment would be:
A new mining laser which uses crystals
A new cap ship that can equip a radiation bubble generator
A radiation bubble generator
A pure power plant ship to heat the bubble (cruiser sized?)
A relay ship to heat and fed the bubble (battle cruiser sized?)
A radiation gun to heat the bubble
A radiation relay port to fed the bubble
A scanner to check the content and temperature of the bubble
Either version would be nice if implemented
____________________________
Whine : The only FOTM than never gets nerved or out of style! |
Khrillian
Minmatar
Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2008.09.09 21:18:00 -
[49]
Is this just a really fancy way to get people to mine in lowsec? Why not just adjust the named ores to have a bigger % difference and drop only in lowsec (so dense veldspar or whatever gets 200% normal yields and drops only in lowsec).
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Banlish
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2008.09.09 21:48:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Khrillian
Is this just a really fancy way to get people to mine in lowsec? Why not just adjust the named ores to have a bigger % difference and drop only in lowsec (so dense veldspar or whatever gets 200% normal yields and drops only in lowsec).
No it's not, it's for 0.4 to 0.0 mining in a large and big way. Low sec mining only is stupid when 80% of 0.0 systems haven't been touched mining wise in months or years.
Atlas Head Diplomat
CEO - Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Carebear
Pvper?!?!? |
Khrillian
Minmatar
Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2008.09.09 22:08:00 -
[51]
Hmm... lets look at your requirements/pros of this proposed change
1. Mining hasn't been touched since the hulk (the rorqual doesn't mine itself per say)
Any change to mining meets this requirement.
2. Players have been looking for yet another 'upgrade' to mining progression.
Maybe not, but if you really want a profession you could just make the named ores require some new skills or whatever.
3. 0.0 mining needs ways to make mining low ends actually worth while.
The low end value really has very little to do with mining - as long as drone missions and reprocessable mission loot are around high ends will be cheap.
4. Mining operations would go from a few hulks, hauler and rorqual to all of those and maybe 4 to 5 additional classes of ships.
I guess they could roll out a racial variety of barges but I don't really see how having more ship models sitting around in the asteroid belt helps.
5. Entire belts would be cleaned out in low sec and 0.0 compared to just 'cherry picking'
My simpler mining change would do this.
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Thoran Karlien
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2008.09.10 00:08:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Khrillian
Is this just a really fancy way to get people to mine in lowsec? Why not just adjust the named ores to have a bigger % difference and drop only in lowsec (so dense veldspar or whatever gets 200% normal yields and drops only in lowsec).
While low sec mining needs a boost, I'd put the mining improvements more into the 'more fun' category.
Mining in 0.0 doesn't need to be that much more profitable. But if you'd introduce a way that would make more people participate in more interesting ways while perhaps earning with ore they'd normally wouldn't mine, how can that be a bad thing?
If you just up the yields of named ores you still have single people mining with a fleet of alts only the most profitable ores while leaving the rest. If you could mine those with more people in an interesting manner... ...
____________________________
Whine : The only FOTM than never gets nerved or out of style! |
Thoran Karlien
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Atlas Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.09.10 00:16:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Khrillian
Hmm... lets look at your requirements/pros of this proposed change
1. Mining hasn't been touched since the hulk (the rorqual doesn't mine itself per say)
Any change to mining meets this requirement.
Yes, but a change in the way mining works would be nice
Quote:
2. Players have been looking for yet another 'upgrade' to mining progression.
Maybe not, but if you really want a profession you could just make the named ores require some new skills or whatever.
mining is a profession but a pretty boring one. It already has lots of skills for lots of diffrent ores.
Quote:
3. 0.0 mining needs ways to make mining low ends actually worth while.
The low end value really has very little to do with mining - as long as drone missions and reprocessable mission loot are around high ends will be cheap.
which actually makes low end more expansive... and they still aren't worth it in 0.0
Quote:
4. Mining operations would go from a few hulks, hauler and rorqual to all of those and maybe 4 to 5 additional classes of ships.
I guess they could roll out a racial variety of barges but I don't really see how having more ship models sitting around in the asteroid belt helps.
because more diffrent ships with vastly diffrent workings = more diffrent people. yeah, people probably could still mine a belt all by themselve and theirs alts but it gets harder the more different the single tasks are. mining as a group would give you benefits instead of simply less income.
Quote:
5. Entire belts would be cleaned out in low sec and 0.0 compared to just 'cherry picking'
My simpler mining change would do this.
even with improved yield there would still be some cherry picking. you'd need to improve the yield to 90% of the most valuable ore possible in the region to make certain the belts get picked clean. getting less but with more fun would be an alternative
____________________________
Whine : The only FOTM than never gets nerved or out of style! |
SolarKnight
Gallente
ORIGIN SYSTEMS
Atlas Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.09.10 14:43:00 -
[54]
VEry nice, and very well thought out :D
The Light in the Darkness
My Corp, My family
http://Origin.zapto.org
My Alliance
http://forums.atlas-alliance.com/index.php |
Khrillian
Minmatar
Sebiestor tribe
|
Posted - 2008.09.10 15:03:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Thoran Karlien
While low sec mining needs a boost, I'd put the mining improvements more into the 'more fun' category.
Improvements like adding new ships and modules are really only fun for a little while - it's kind of cool and novel to see them in the field, but you're still staring at the same asteroids for hours (one reason I don't mine anymore). If they wanted to make mining *itself* fun they'd have to add a minigame or something actually challenging/interesting. Maybe something like the Bioshock water puzzles.
Originally by: Thoran Karlien
If you just up the yields of named ores you still have single people mining with a fleet of alts only the most profitable ores while leaving the rest. If you could mine those with more people in an interesting manner... ...
I don't see how adding more ships or more ore types would prevent a fleet of alts. In fact, it would encourage a fleet of alts since you could manage specialization perfectly, whereas in a corp you can't directly control who specializes in what so you'd have a sub-optimal mix of players.
Originally by: Thoran Karlien
mining as a group would give you benefits instead of simply less income.
The real benefit to mining as a group is talking on vent...not so much just being in space staring at each others ships. I would watch movies too while mining so really I'd barely be playing EVE.
Originally by: Thoran Karlien
even with improved yield there would still be some cherry picking. you'd need to improve the yield to 90% of the most valuable ore possible in the region to make certain the belts get picked clean. getting less but with more fun would be an alternative
Surely you don't believe all ore values should be equal? The idea with improving ore yield is that every ore in lowsec would be strictly better than that available in highsec, so while initially there would be cherrypicking (whatever ore the market says is the best), people would continue to mine from lowsec since it was still 100% better than *anything* in empire.
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Fullmetal Jackass
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Posted - 2008.09.10 17:03:00 -
[56]
The only concern I have with the idea, is that it would speed up the trend that is "cap ships online".
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Thoran Karlien
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2008.09.10 17:32:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Khrillian
Improvements like adding new ships and modules are really only fun for a little while - it's kind of cool and novel to see them in the field, but you're still staring at the same asteroids for hours (one reason I don't mine anymore). If they wanted to make mining *itself* fun they'd have to add a minigame or something actually challenging/interesting. Maybe something like the Bioshock water puzzles.
Well... such a bubble you'd have to constantly monitor would work as a minigame. If you have more ver diffrent jobs in a mining op, you could choose which job you want to do and thus have several alternative playstyles and still do mining.
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I don't see how adding more ships or more ore types would prevent a fleet of alts. In fact, it would encourage a fleet of alts since you could manage specialization perfectly, whereas in a corp you can't directly control who specializes in what so you'd have a sub-optimal mix of players.
If your jobs are more diverse requireing more attention the game is more fun, and it gets a lot harder playing two or three or eight alts at the same time. Because each char would need to do something entirely diffrent from the others. Well, at least it would make it for me a lot harder, but then I don't run more than one account at a time because I hate alt+tabbing.
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The real benefit to mining as a group is talking on vent...not so much just being in space staring at each others ships. I would watch movies too while mining so really I'd barely be playing EVE.
yeah and this is why mining would benefit from a change that would require more attention to the game
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Surely you don't believe all ore values should be equal? The idea with improving ore yield is that every ore in lowsec would be strictly better than that available in highsec, so while initially there would be cherrypicking (whatever ore the market says is the best), people would continue to mine from lowsec since it was still 100% better than *anything* in empire.
Sorry, was a bit tired when I wrote the last part. I am hardly ever in low sec but from the rumors I heard there are massive belts untapped. Even if you make the low ends worth double what they are now, would they get mined or would only the cherries be picked and the low end be supplied by high sec? But if there is a way that makes it a lot faster and efficient to mine the low ends, but still not the high ends, the hopes are that corps will start such ops to supply themselve with vast amounts of low end mins.
If such a mass mining would further the cap online of eve is something I have to think about...
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Whine : The only FOTM than never gets nerved or out of style! |
Quesa
Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2008.09.17 00:21:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Straight Chillen
Also as for 0.0 space, theres alot of lesser 0.0 systems that are truely empty except for the occasional passer-byer. This mining system could open those up to random corps who jump in their rorqual, and then clone jump the miners in to pick up their barges, and blamo Mining OP.
I think thats the general idea, you pop in a system, drop a tower in a non-sov, low-traffic system and the next day you pop in for a full force mining op to ninja as much ore as you can, and get out.
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Quesa
Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2008.09.17 00:25:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Khrillian
Hmm... lets look at your requirements/pros of this proposed change
1. Mining hasn't been touched since the hulk (the rorqual doesn't mine itself per say)
Any change to mining meets this requirement.
2. Players have been looking for yet another 'upgrade' to mining progression.
Maybe not, but if you really want a profession you could just make the named ores require some new skills or whatever.
3. 0.0 mining needs ways to make mining low ends actually worth while.
The low end value really has very little to do with mining - as long as drone missions and reprocessable mission loot are around high ends will be cheap.
4. Mining operations would go from a few hulks, hauler and rorqual to all of those and maybe 4 to 5 additional classes of ships.
I guess they could roll out a racial variety of barges but I don't really see how having more ship models sitting around in the asteroid belt helps.
5. Entire belts would be cleaned out in low sec and 0.0 compared to just 'cherry picking'
My simpler mining change would do this.
While your simpler mining change would change mining and do some of the things that you suggest, it doesn't touch the main idea. Industrialists, more specifically MINERS, want their own career path. The OP not only laid out the foundation for a new line of ORE ships, but an ORE career path within the industrial field...which is what industrialists want.
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Nikolae Varius
Amarr
Exiled.
Un-Natural Selection
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Posted - 2008.09.17 01:07:00 -
[60]
Someone had posted in another thread a problem with the already implemented method of mining where melting crystals would destroy the crystalline structure. Like imagine melting diamonds and you'd get a black crust of carbon as a result. Ofc, one can re-create diamonds via extreme pressure and heat. However, the same rules may or may not apply to 0.0 ores and if the process isn't reversible, you've basically taken super rare crystals, melted them into the basic elements.
I don't mind the idea but I just find that capitalizing on an already questionable idea is wayyy to anti-fluff. Maybe if you had some kind of vibro technology? Like instead of a bubble animation, it could be shooting drones/torpedoes that emit intense kinetic energy that cracks those asteroids and somehow harvest that. Impurities can be assumed to be filtered out during reprocessing.
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