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What if anonymity were completely removed from Eve?

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Synapse Archae Amarr Demonic Retribution Un-Natural Selection	Posted - 2008.09.09 03:09:00 - [1] Edited by: Synapse Archae on 09/09/2008 03:09:30 What if you could search an any character, deleted or not, and find all characters past and present who are either on the same account, or the account is owned by the same player? The player's real name or any RL information would not be shown, obviously, but all characters you control or have controlled would be permanently logged and shown as one linked group. Some interesting benefits: 1. Spies have to actually go BE in the enemy alliance/corp instead of just using an alt. Raises the value and risk, and arguably the fun, of being a spy. 2. The end of alt-forum posting (yay) 3. Scammers would have to hide from or deal with the resulting reputation. 4. Enough trust could be built to support real banking and stocks. Honestly I see very little bad that could come from it. What does the forum think? Discuss. Originally by: CCP Garthagk While these forums may not give you everything that you want, they will usually let you post.
TYCONDEROGA Amarr EMPERIAL ARMOR	Posted - 2008.09.09 03:17:00 - [2] I have nothing to hide Those that do, I'm sure will make their feelings known here. He who defends Everything, Defends Nothing!
TheG2 Gallente Dirty Rotten Scoundrels	Posted - 2008.09.09 03:18:00 - [3] Well, for the record, we already have several banks. But theres no real difference to the real world. In the real world, I can create fake ID's, or even steal someones identity to commit fraud or scams. Although alt-posting should be brought to an end and the use of Alts for everything in-game ruins some aspects (sec status penalties have hauler alts for example)
TheG2 Gallente Dirty Rotten Scoundrels	Posted - 2008.09.09 03:18:00 - [4] Edited by: TheG2 on 09/09/2008 03:19:12 double post
Jana Clant New Dawn Corp New Eden Research	Posted - 2008.09.09 03:21:00 - [5] I'm up for it, but I'm sure many people will disagree. 9 out of 10 blueprints prefer New Eden Research!
Synapse Archae Amarr Demonic Retribution Un-Natural Selection	Posted - 2008.09.09 03:24:00 - [6] Originally by: TheG2 Well, for the record, we already have several banks. But theres no real difference to the real world. In the real world, I can create fake ID's, or even steal someones identity to commit fraud or scams. Although alt-posting should be brought to an end and the use of Alts for everything in-game ruins some aspects (sec status penalties have hauler alts for example) Taking loans out from those banks is difficult because you have to give them collateral to get loans, because otherwise they can't find you if you run off with their money. In the real world you can indeed create fake ids, but the fakeness only goes so far, and you can't delete the original you. Perhaps one could bribe pirate agents with a huge sum to unlink a character from your association, effectively creating a fake ID. It should be expensive and have its own difficulties though. Originally by: CCP Garthagk While these forums may not give you everything that you want, they will usually let you post.
Shar Tegral	Posted - 2008.09.09 03:27:00 - [7] There will be no way to have accounts reasonably traced back to individual owners. I know for I fund several accounts not all of which are my own. (Family, friends, its nice being an isk maker!) That being the case: Originally by: Synapse Archae 1. Spies have to actually go BE in the enemy alliance/corp instead of just using an alt. Raises the value and risk, and arguably the fun, of being a spy. Can be bypassed via multiple accounts. Trust me, I've done it. Originally by: Synapse Archae 2. The end of alt-forum posting (yay) Can be bypassed via multiple accounts. Trust me, I watch it done all the time. Originally by: Synapse Archae 3. Scammers would have to hide from or deal with the resulting reputation. Can be bypassed via multiple accounts. A good scam, a good to great one, can easily pay for 1 - 2 years of game time and facilitate the transfer/purchase of toons. Originally by: Synapse Archae 4. Enough trust could be built to support real banking and stocks. Eve General discussion is the least likely place to really discuss this in any detail. Add in the fact that not only has this been discussed, ad infinitum ad nauseum, in the Market forum but there is 3 functioning banks of varying success and reputation. Many many more good stocks in play. On #4: You simply don't what you are talking about. Removing of alts won't change the basic nature of losers. Just make them expend 1, maybe 2, more iotas of effort. It will also create a very false sense of security just as the API did. (Or haven't you heard - the first api scam took place a month or so ago. Can't stop losers.) To Shar -verb: 1 - To say what you mean. 2 - To say what it means. 3 - To say something mean.
Letouk Mernel	Posted - 2008.09.09 03:31:00 - [8] Bad that could come out of it: 1. A lot of alts would have no point, since they've been specifically created for forum posting, spying, anonymity, etc. Result: fewer active accounts, less money for CCP. 2. It would eliminate spying, theft, scamming, alt forum posting, etc., which are valid ways to play the game, even if YOU don't like such activities. What should we all be limited to, missions and mining? 3. There's no trust for "real" banking and stocks. You can eliminate people who have a past criminal record, but you know, here: I've been an exemplary carebear for the past 5 years, let me borrow 15 billion, and I think I can live with the "reputation" once I run away with the money. There's no trust. 4. Someone who has an Amarr character and a Minmatar character and is keeping them separate and tries to roleplay with each, won't be able to continue doing so because they're shown as a "linked group". 5. Say I have a sweet eye for one of the CSM girls, cause, like, she posted her pics, and I know her CSM character name. By all means do link all of her characters so I can harrass to my hearts content, no matter how she tries to hide. 6. Ditto with any other EVE famous or infamous persons: alliance leaders, corp leaders, just about anyone. Find out all their alts, use locator agents, go kill them over and over, just to harrass. Heck, anyone, camp a player on all his alts, frustrate him out of the game. Log in, boom, dead, repeat forever.
Ruze Amarr No Applicable Corporation	Posted - 2008.09.09 03:36:00 - [9] Well, almost on topic, take a note from PlanetSide. You can only switch characters on the same account every 24 hours. I hate the function in that game, but it's there for a reason. Too easy to hop to an alt, check out the enemies defenses, then hop to your main and break the bank. Originally by: CCP Greyscale consciously deciding not to join a corp is pretty much deciding that you don't want to have fun
Rawr Cristina Caldari Omerta Syndicate	Posted - 2008.09.09 03:44:00 - [10] Originally by: Synapse Archae or the account is owned by the same player? How would they be able to tell? IP? What if more than 1 person in the same house? Comp? What if person is using more than 1 comp for their accounts? Billing info? What if they pay with GTCs? - Infectious -
Ruze Amarr No Applicable Corporation	Posted - 2008.09.09 03:51:00 - [11] Originally by: Rawr Cristina Originally by: Synapse Archae or the account is owned by the same player? How would they be able to tell? IP? What if more than 1 person in the same house? Comp? What if person is using more than 1 comp for their accounts? Billing info? What if they pay with GTCs? Too many ways around it. My ISP cycles and randomizes IP addresses. I could use GTC's and various different methods of payments. I could get my wife to use her maiden name for purchases. I have MANY different comps, and have been known to play on wireless pickups. I know it's annoying, but no game has figured out how to stop players from using multiple accounts, not that I know of. Originally by: CCP Greyscale consciously deciding not to join a corp is pretty much deciding that you don't want to have fun
Mystic Pete	Posted - 2008.09.09 03:52:00 - [12] Only use an second character every 24 hours? I have been known to use an alt to test corp settings and security. This can often mean switch several times to ensure everythings corret. Are you saying I shouldn't be able to do this, or that it's far too easy? Your coming up with ideas without any real thought. As for the general idea of inking characters; As was said previously, at least in part; If you have two seperate characters you should be able to use them both freely without consequence. If your main has got their sec murdered and a fleet full of war targets on their tail shouldn't they be able to log onto another charater for a break? Basically what you doing is seriously messing with how accounts work for no benefit. In all honesty would it even be so bad if we could train three characters on one account even? Short answer. No, no, and no.
Ruze Amarr No Applicable Corporation	Posted - 2008.09.09 04:00:00 - [13] Originally by: Mystic Pete Only use an second character every 24 hours? I have been known to use an alt to test corp settings and security. This can often mean switch several times to ensure everythings corret. Are you saying I shouldn't be able to do this, or that it's far too easy? Your coming up with ideas without any real thought. As for the general idea of inking characters; As was said previously, at least in part; If you have two seperate characters you should be able to use them both freely without consequence. If your main has got their sec murdered and a fleet full of war targets on their tail shouldn't they be able to log onto another charater for a break? Basically what you doing is seriously messing with how accounts work for no benefit. In all honesty would it even be so bad if we could train three characters on one account even? Short answer. No, no, and no. Hmm, maybe it wasn't clear enough. I just brought up a method used by a completely separate game. I even mentioned not liking it personally. Options are options though, no matter how bad they are. I don't think this 'issue' can be fixed, personally. But if it's been done in another game to combat the issue, it's worth bringing up. Originally by: CCP Greyscale consciously deciding not to join a corp is pretty much deciding that you don't want to have fun
Synapse Archae Amarr Demonic Retribution Un-Natural Selection	Posted - 2008.09.09 04:43:00 - [14] Edited by: Synapse Archae on 09/09/2008 04:51:04 Linking separate accounts could be done with a combination of billing data. GTCs would represent an issue to be overcome. Some development would have to be done, but not an insurmountable or even really difficult amount of work. I do program and I do work in software so I'm not totally speaking out of my ass here. IP address, while not admissable in court, could conceivably play a part in an algorythm, so long as it wasn't heavily relied upon. To create an alt beyond this would be certainly possible, but would require a separate shipping address, a separate credit card with a separate billing address, a separate email address, and a Pseudonym which wouldn't break Eve's EULA...If a scam breaks the EULA, you could back that up with threats of GM's banning your account and redestributing stolen isk, if theres enough of it. I wouldnt want to see GM's running around playing utopia for every lost 10m. Stealing tens of billions would still be fine so long as you didn't break the EULA to do it. I'd call that a significant increase to the trustworthyness of people. I don't want to remove or prohibit scamming or spying. I just want both to be tied to a real threat of reputation. A good spy will be able to cast enough doubt to rebuild his career. A good theif should only have to steal once to be set for life. A good scammer will find scams that people don't run a background check before they jump in (10x your isk anyone?) A healthy dose of trust would make an evil, dark, world that much more evil and dark, when scammers and theives go on to build their own corps with no regrets. Originally by: CCP Garthagk While these forums may not give you everything that you want, they will usually let you post.
Neesa Corrinne Dark Destiny Inc. Send More Paramedics	Posted - 2008.09.09 04:46:00 - [15] The OP is basing this topic on the premise that people only have one account. Many people in this game have multiple accounts and it's really not that expensive to start another account for your spy toon if you really wanted to.
Synapse Archae Amarr Demonic Retribution Un-Natural Selection	Posted - 2008.09.09 04:50:00 - [16] Originally by: Neesa Corrinne The OP is basing this topic on the premise that people only have one account. Many people in this game have multiple accounts and it's really not that expensive to start another account for your spy toon if you really wanted to. Next time, read the actual post. Originally by: CCP Garthagk While these forums may not give you everything that you want, they will usually let you post.
Ruze Amarr No Applicable Corporation	Posted - 2008.09.09 04:54:00 - [17] Originally by: Synapse Archae Originally by: Neesa Corrinne The OP is basing this topic on the premise that people only have one account. Many people in this game have multiple accounts and it's really not that expensive to start another account for your spy toon if you really wanted to. Next time, read the actual post. While I understand much of your reasonings, it would seriously hurt the 'roleplay' aspect of the game in my opinion. I have many characters. I play them completely differently. Some would argue that this type of play is 'dishonest', when in fact we are nothing more then actors on a stage in a video game. While I don't have pirates or scammer alts, I have many alts in positions where they are ... vulnerable. Do I, as the player, use the information these alts gather and find? Yes. But do my characters use this information? Rarely, if ever. Try to hardcode a reputation into the game, and you do take away alot of the roleplay aspect. Originally by: CCP Greyscale consciously deciding not to join a corp is pretty much deciding that you don't want to have fun
Neesa Corrinne Dark Destiny Inc. Send More Paramedics	Posted - 2008.09.09 04:56:00 - [18] Originally by: Synapse Archae Originally by: Neesa Corrinne The OP is basing this topic on the premise that people only have one account. Many people in this game have multiple accounts and it's really not that expensive to start another account for your spy toon if you really wanted to. Next time, read the actual post. Quote me where I'm wrong please. I read the whole post and what I said is factually true. Multiple accounts is a complete and total workaround for what you are talking about. Please have completely thought out ideas before hitting the post button.
Soleramnus Gallente	Posted - 2008.09.09 04:59:00 - [19] An even more interesting question would be if people felt what they did in the game world had weight on their conscience in the real world.
Ruze Amarr No Applicable Corporation	Posted - 2008.09.09 05:05:00 - [20] Originally by: Soleramnus An even more interesting question would be if people felt what they did in the game world had weight on their conscience in the real world. Why should it, though? While I understand someone who has personal moral codework that they don't wish to upset (like me and how I feel about theft or scamming), I also think that EvE is still a game, to be treated as such. Killing someone in a video game doesn't make you a homicidal maniac. Of course, it's also how far you take it, and your mentality while doing so. Are you killing new players and getting a bner while your at it, working up a sick sweat? Yeah, you might have problems. But I'll pop another ship over a cup of tea and it's not a big thing. There's no menace to it, very little emotion involved. To me, it's something to do. Originally by:* CCP Greyscale consciously deciding not to join a corp is pretty much deciding that you don't want to have fun
Synapse Archae Amarr Demonic Retribution Un-Natural Selection	Posted - 2008.09.09 05:06:00 - [21] Originally by: Neesa Corrinne Quote me where I'm wrong please. I read the whole post and what I said is factually true. Multiple accounts is a complete and total workaround for what you are talking about. Please have completely thought out ideas before hitting the post button. From the first line: Originally by: Synapse Archae ...,or the account is owned by the same player? Post #14 is entirely about elaborating on that point. Like I said, please read my posts first. Originally by: CCP Garthagk While these forums may not give you everything that you want, they will usually let you post.
Synapse Archae Amarr Demonic Retribution Un-Natural Selection	Posted - 2008.09.09 05:08:00 - [22] Originally by: Ruze Originally by: Soleramnus An even more interesting question would be if people felt what they did in the game world had weight on their conscience in the real world. Why should it, though? While I understand someone who has personal moral codework that they don't wish to upset (like me and how I feel about theft or scamming), I also think that EvE is still a game, to be treated as such. Killing someone in a video game doesn't make you a homicidal maniac. Of course, it's also how far you take it, and your mentality while doing so. Are you killing new players and getting a bner while your at it, working up a sick sweat? Yeah, you might have problems. But I'll pop another ship over a cup of tea and it's not a big thing. There's no menace to it, very little emotion involved. To me, it's something to do. I don't think having to stick with a single character would drag your conscience into it any more than the current mechanics do. It's still a personality entirely separate from your own. The difference would be that you'd have to take more long term consideration about the reputation of your persona. Originally by:* CCP Garthagk While these forums may not give you everything that you want, they will usually let you post.
Neesa Corrinne Dark Destiny Inc. Send More Paramedics	Posted - 2008.09.09 05:09:00 - [23] Originally by: Synapse Archae Originally by: Neesa Corrinne Quote me where I'm wrong please. I read the whole post and what I said is factually true. Multiple accounts is a complete and total workaround for what you are talking about. Please have completely thought out ideas before hitting the post button. From the first line: Originally by: Synapse Archae ...,or the account is owned by the same player? Post #14 is entirely about elaborating on that point. Like I said, please read my posts first. You quite and very specifically said to read the entire post first. I did. I read the entirety of your first post. Now if you wanted to me to read the entire thread first, then maybe you should have said that, but to be honest, I couldn't be arsed to care what other people have to say about a bad idea in the first place so I never made it past your first post in the thread.
Synapse Archae Amarr Demonic Retribution Un-Natural Selection	Posted - 2008.09.09 05:28:00 - [24] Edited by: Synapse Archae on 09/09/2008 05:30:24 I don't know how much more direct I can be. There was a basic addressing of multiple accounts on the first line of the first post. If you want to discuss, then you'd better be up to date. If you don't want to discuss, then don't post. It's that simple. You're wasting both of our time here. Originally by: CCP Garthagk While these forums may not give you everything that you want, they will usually let you post.
Pan Crastus Anti-Metagaming League	Posted - 2008.09.09 05:40:00 - [25] Originally by: Synapse Archae Edited by: Synapse Archae on 09/09/2008 03:09:30 What if you could search an any character, deleted or not, and find all characters past and present who are either on the same account, or the account is owned by the same player? [...] What does the forum think? Discuss. Not possible since you can pay with GTCs, use multiple e-mail addresses and CCP cannot reliably determine a common owner of the accounts due to multiple/dynamic IP addresses and people using multiple PCs etc. It will just add a false sense of trust when people successfully circumvent it. How to PVP: 1. buy ISK with GTCs, 2. fit cloak, learn aggro mechanics, 3. buy second account for metagaming
Synapse Archae Amarr Demonic Retribution Un-Natural Selection	Posted - 2008.09.09 05:46:00 - [26] GTCs would be something to be fixed, they would have to be changed a little to have this system. Originally by: CCP Garthagk While these forums may not give you everything that you want, they will usually let you post.
Ruze Amarr No Applicable Corporation	Posted - 2008.09.09 05:54:00 - [27] Originally by: Synapse Archae I don't think having to stick with a single character would drag your conscience into it any more than the current mechanics do. It's still a personality entirely separate from your own. The difference would be that you'd have to take more long term consideration about the reputation of your persona. I value my reputation on this character. Sure, I'm seen as something of an arrogant know-it-all, but that's right along with my character. But I have many characters over many accounts, and not all of them are the same. Some COULDN'T be, if players could backtrack my 'main' easily. I understand the issue your trying to address. I'm just not sure if it's good for the game. But, some systems you might want to look into for comparison. Like, Tabula Rasa's geneology system. Or LOTRO ancestor or family line or whatever that was. Originally by: CCP Greyscale consciously deciding not to join a corp is pretty much deciding that you don't want to have fun
Karanth Gallente Eve's Brothers of Destiny FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2008.09.09 06:33:00 - [28] This member of the forums says GET OUT. How can this even be considered a reasonable idea in ~~Paranoia~~ EVE Online? It is simple to circumvent, a waste of time for negligible benefit to only a few, and will result in mass account cancellations. And If I hear one more "argument" about how if I have nothing to hide, I shouldn't worry, I'll blow a forehead vein. There is no merit to such a foolish position, and the mere fact I need to give my privacy up "just in case" means that I am now forced to utilize trivially simple workarounds for a stupid idea that shouldn't be implemented to begin with. If what I or any character of mine does doesn't violate the EULA, you have no place to complain. If it does, file a petition, and let the GMs deal with it. Either way, your "right to know" ends right where my right to privacy begins. tl;dr: GET OUT. --- Wheel of Whineage
Hugh Ruka Exploratio et Industria Morispatia	Posted - 2008.09.09 06:37:00 - [29] This is an RPG ... means you should be able to play a role, ANY role you like. Why does that have to be identifiable to the person behind the keyboard? I see no reason nor logic behind your suggestion. --- SIG --- CSM: your support is needed !
Malcanis RuffRyders Axiom Empire	Posted - 2008.09.09 06:51:00 - [30] Originally by: Synapse Archae Edited by: Synapse Archae on 09/09/2008 05:47:46 What if you could search an any character, deleted or not, and find all characters past and present who are either on the same account, or the account is owned by the same player? GTCs are the obvious way around this, but adding some identifier to GTCs wouldn't be that hard. A requirement to provide your name or your mailing address perhaps. The player's real name or any RL information would not be shown, obviously, but all characters you control or have controlled would be permanently logged and shown as one linked group. Some interesting benefits: 1. Spies have to actually go BE in the enemy alliance/corp instead of just using an alt. Raises the value and risk, and arguably the fun, of being a spy. 2. The end of alt-forum posting (yay) 3. Scammers would have to hide from or deal with the resulting reputation. 4. Enough trust could be built to support real banking and stocks. Honestly I see very little bad that could come from it. What does the forum think? Discuss. Fine by me. My characters are: Main Alt Malcanis (Scoutart) Pheusia (Vr0ngar) Bossy Lady (Iscynokka) CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Dantes Revenge Caldari	Posted - 2008.09.09 06:54:00 - [31] So, my name is Joe Bloggs on account 1 and John Doe on account 2, my postal addresses are different too. Unless CCP make it a requirement to validate your address by post, it can't be proved that I own both accounts. Even that can be overcome by using a friends name/address who doesn't play Eve. At the very least, CCP could use the IP address to check but what if my friend who has his own account comes around to my house and plays on his laptop using my internet connection? Now, CCP will presume I own both accounts so it won't work either. Alts are one thing but different accounts are another. Most players scamming or spying on rival corps/alliances are using a different account to do it. That allows them to spy and still have the other account loaded so they can report their findings in real time, especially during a fleet op against the enemy. -- There's a simple difference between kinky and perverted. Kinky is using a feather to get her in the mood. Perverted is using the whole chicken.
Doris Dents	Posted - 2008.09.09 07:07:00 - [32] How would a spy even get set up and recruited if you could instantly see who all his accounts/characters were? "Ok mate don't join our alliance ever or be afflitated in any way but go join these other dudes and report back" Seems bit of a catch 22, no? Guess a determined spy/scammer/trust abuser could asks to borrow his mom's credit card and you're back to square one. If the only way around that is CCP calling us up whenever we renew a la "Shattered Crystal" and other GTC sites then the cure is definitely worse than the disease tbh.
Sicil Fioet Minmatar	Posted - 2008.09.09 07:10:00 - [33] Players who shitpost will continue to do so because the desire to shitpost is irresistible. They will just troll with their mains, as many already do. Spies, corp thieves, and scammers will use a second account. They are after all groups of players rich enough to afford to buy GTCs with ISK. Many of them already use additional accounts for this. There are already successful banks and IPOs in EVE. Knowing that about a quarter of EVE players run more than 1 account I'd presonally recommend to not start handing your trust around after such a change. The end.
Hieronimus Rex Minmatar Infinitus Sapientia New Eden Research	Posted - 2008.09.09 07:11:00 - [34] I would use alt spies with GTCs and false information.
Saint Lazarus Spiorad ag fanaiocht	Posted - 2008.09.09 08:04:00 - [35] As someone who does everything on his main without any alts or second accounts (and hates alts altogether) I have to admit it'd probably make little to no difference. Anyone really wanting to hide their identity still would find a way and in general people would adapt. ----------------- My EvE Comic
Carniflex Caldari StarHunt Fallout Project	Posted - 2008.09.09 08:09:00 - [36] Yep. Would support that. Altho in case of one account it's already possible to chek background by asking API. No API no entry. All 0.0 entities I know of ask already API's in addition to interviews to get into corp.
Benco97 Gallente The Star League	Posted - 2008.09.09 08:12:00 - [37] Personally I don't like the idea, not because it impinges upon myself (not anymore at least) but because it closes OPTIONS and that's bad. We have the OPTION of lying and the choice to be good. It's a very special moment when you find yourself the only corpmember online and you've got access to the wallet and all the supplies... What do you do? Make a break for it and hide it? Do nothing because you're a good guy? It's an exciting choice and one that will be more difficult to make with these changes It's not much of an argument against it I know but the more choice in the game (For better OR for worse) the better. Originally by: P'uck You're a DUMBASS - bold italic underline at the VERY LEAST.
Lyn Quan Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2008.09.09 08:21:00 - [38] They will never do this. Can you imagine the horrible shitstorm that would happen when suddenly all alt characters of the DEVS are revealed? T20 would look quite pale in comparison.
Borar Caldari	Posted - 2008.09.09 08:44:00 - [39] I like the idea ,because : 1 i wanna know when you have a empire war, who`s the npc alt that probe me in jita with 900 in local . 2 and since it`s hot to say all empire carebears needs to move to 0.0,then i wanna know when those npc freithers bring all those alliance moon mins to jita.0.0 alliance are ofc the biggest carebears in empire 3 i wanna know of that trusty guy in my alliance have a alt in goons.Who is that TS spy?. 4 i wanna know all those alt corps that most alliance have in empire ,,again who`s`the biggest carebear in eve .
Zaarah	Posted - 2008.09.09 10:17:00 - [40] Edited by: Zaarah on 09/09/2008 10:18:58 1) I will have each of my family that has a different email address, credit card, and billing address sign up for an account. That gives me 9 accounts originating in about as many countries. 2) I know where many ISP proxies are hosted across the world. Its easy to set it up in browser options, therefore ensuring they all use the same on, or different ones, when signing up. 3) My ISP provides dynamic addresses, and several proxy farms. I can change how I connect and change the proxy/hosting country on all 9 accounts every hour of the day. Good Luck with linking my characters together.
Druadan Aristotle Enterprises Chances of Misfortune	Posted - 2008.09.09 10:33:00 - [41] I have a number of dodecatuple secret projects that I would not want revealed by a system like this. It would be useful for weeding out spies rich enough to use an account just for spying, though.
Artemis Rose Varion Galactic Accord Corporate Enterprise Syndicate	Posted - 2008.09.09 10:49:00 - [42] I don't think your idea is a good one at all. People who use alts to do anything you mentioned in your posts would just a find a way around the system. As for spies/metagaming, the stakes are too high in this game and somebody will always be doing it. How, possibly, could you ever explain a game mechanic that shows every single character that has ever been on your account(s). What possible connection could say, a brand new Matari alt born in my account's extra slots have ANYTHING to do with this character?? *** Currently Playing: Trolls from Outer Space Current Equipment: VISAcard chain mail, +2 Amulet of Epic Whine, Self Banstick +2 WTB: +666 E-peen killboard stats
gordon861 Minmatar PROGENITOR CORPORATION Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2008.09.09 10:51:00 - [43] You could encourage people to link their own accounts by giving them the ability to log in any toons from any of their accounts that they like, up to the number of accounts and do the same for training. So, if I have 2 accounts the system could then allow me to login any 2 of my 6 possible characters at the same time or train any of the 2 chars. This would probably encourage most people to link their accounts. You would have to require the billing addresses to match as well, inorder to stop an alliance/corp linking all their accounts and just sharing the login details. Originally by: CCP Arkanon I frown on employees being power players to the extent that their gameplay results in any sort of domination over others. I donÆt believe CCP employees should run the EVE universe.
Drunk Driver Gallente	Posted - 2008.09.09 11:24:00 - [44] I think the OP has a great idea. That way when I make people angry on the forums they can wardec the corps my characters are in and kill people who had nothing to do with what I'm posting. .
Terra Mikael The Aduro Protocol	Posted - 2008.09.09 12:17:00 - [45] Edited by: Terra Mikael on 09/09/2008 12:20:50 Originally by: TYCONDEROGA I have nothing to hide Yeah. this is what I say to the police when I invite them in for random searches. what's that? you want to check my body cavities as well, officer? Sure! I have nothing to hide! Edit, one second thought, this is a great idea. If you coupled this with a way to war-dec NPC corps, it's the perfect griefing tool! I could follow the same person around forever, killing him wherever he went. he could never hide. It would be awesome and I'm John McCain and I approve this message.
Rhivre Caldari Carlsberg Intelligence Agency	Posted - 2008.09.09 12:28:00 - [46] Edited by: Rhivre on 09/09/2008 12:29:54 well, the people that need to know, know my alts. After bad experiences in other games, I kinda prefer, for example, my ex not being able to find out who my alt is. Eve has 1 server, I should not have to stop playing a game I enjoy because someone wishes to take RL stuff into a game. I am paranoid to a high degree about this issue, to the point of being suspicious of everyone who spends time chatting to me, then happens to mention at some point that they are from a particular (major city) in a particular country (I considered leaving a corp last night because there were just too many similarities, for example). Its bad enough, when by pure chance, someone from the same suburb of this city started working at my last workplace. Now, at this point, I am fairly confident my ex does not play eve, however, if my character details were fully available, I would reconsider playing the game. As mentioned at the start, when an alt of mine joins a corp, I provide details of my other char to the CEO, and have no problem dicussing general details of my alts with corp members (not usually names, as the corps I am in may be at polar opposites of the eve spectrum, and I see no need for the 2 to mix, but, if someone really wanted to know for a valid reason, I would tell them)
chiisai sakana	Posted - 2008.09.09 12:46:00 - [47] I'd say this is a quite pathetic attempt to make other follow stupid rules when you can't keep yourself from being scammed etc. And stupid people will always exist and those other people will always find a way to take advantage of them. The real world isn't perfect for everyone and eve will not be either.
Terra Mikael The Aduro Protocol	Posted - 2008.09.09 12:49:00 - [48] Originally by: chiisai sakana I'd say this is a quite pathetic attempt to make other follow stupid rules when you can't keep yourself from being scammed etc. And stupid people will always exist and those other people will always find a way to take advantage of them. The real world isn't perfect for everyone and eve will not be either. This.
Hugo Splat Myrmidons	Posted - 2008.09.09 12:58:00 - [49] Originally by: TheG2 But theres no real difference to the real world. In the real world, I can create fake ID's, or even steal someones identity to commit fraud or scams. Its nothing like the real world Ever woken up and decided to play a female today? Yeah didnt think so
Spectre80 Caldari The Knights Templar Pure.	Posted - 2008.09.09 13:05:00 - [50] completely agree with op.
chiisai sakana	Posted - 2008.09.09 13:20:00 - [51] Ever woken up and decided to play a female today? Yeah didnt think so no but you can get a sex change, which will cost much.
Doctor Remulak	Posted - 2008.09.09 13:22:00 - [52] Sounds good to me. Or, better yet, just remove alts.
Cyb3r Thr3at Mnemonic Enterprises New Eden Research	Posted - 2008.09.09 13:37:00 - [53] I have no prob wit dat!
Ruze Amarr No Applicable Corporation	Posted - 2008.09.09 13:40:00 - [54] Originally by: Hugo Splat Originally by: TheG2 But theres no real difference to the real world. In the real world, I can create fake ID's, or even steal someones identity to commit fraud or scams. Its nothing like the real world Ever woken up and decided to play a female today? Yeah didnt think so I actually do know someone who wakes up each morning and decides to be a woman or man. Of course, I'm not sure if they have different units or if they are actually a woman or a man. Me and 'them' aren't that close. But yeah, they pass pretty well for a woman and a man. Strange person altogether. But it is possible to do in real life. All you need is a metro haircut and a new wardrobe Originally by: CCP Greyscale consciously deciding not to join a corp is pretty much deciding that you don't want to have fun
Rawr Cristina Caldari Omerta Syndicate	Posted - 2008.09.09 15:21:00 - [55] Originally by: Terra Mikael Edit, one second thought, this is a great idea. If you coupled this with a way to war-dec NPC corps, it's the perfect griefing tool! I could follow the same person around forever, killing him wherever he went. he could never hide. here's the main problem imo. Having alt spies in your corp and noob scouts run your camps may be annoying but no reason to nerf characters... CCP gave us 3 char slots for a reason. - Infectious -
Synapse Archae Amarr Demonic Retribution Un-Natural Selection	Posted - 2008.09.09 19:52:00 - [56] Originally by: chiisai sakana I'd say this is a quite pathetic attempt to make other follow stupid rules when you can't keep yourself from being scammed etc. And stupid people will always exist and those other people will always find a way to take advantage of them. The real world isn't perfect for everyone and eve will not be either. Has nothing to do with this at all. Mostly it has to to with the trust required to build things like: working stock market a complicated banking and futures system player run insurance companies rental companies (rent a fleet battleship!) All of these would be very cool, but none of that works when identity is as malleable as it currently is. Identity in real life is also malleable, but not as much, and in life all these systems flourish. Clearly there's some point in the middle at which people would decide there's enough trust to make complicated monetary systems worth the risk to build. Preventing alt scouts, alt posting, and "easy mode" spies who don't actually have to play in their host alliance are mostly side benefits. I do think it would be cool to see spies who actually have to play in the enemy alliance and go on their fleet ops to get intel, rather than just putting an untrained alt in to read email. Hopefully a skills improvement in intelligence would let you bug the enemy communications nets and get the same benefit without the hacky workaround of a fake alt character. Many people are correct though that linking accounts even with credit card or shipping address might not be enough. I'm not quite sure what a better solution would be, or if it would be neccessary. All you need after all is MORE trust, not absolute trust. As I pointed out earlier, these systems work in the real world without absolute trust, but just more of it. I think it's plausable that requiring alt spies to be on a second credit card at a second address might be a high enough barrier to access to build trust needed for complicated banking to flourish. I for one, have always been dying to see a stock market in Eve. Dr Eyjo or whatever his name is (cant spell it) could give you a better lay out of exactly how much trust would be required, but I think it would be incredibly cool. Originally by: CCP Garthagk While these forums may not give you everything that you want, they will usually let you post.
Somealt Ofmine	Posted - 2008.09.09 20:12:00 - [57] The ability to have multiple, anonymous "personas" is and always has been one of the big draws of MMOs. There isn't anything wrong with an alliance player, or an empire player for that matter, having a pirate alt and that being nobody's business but his. You're asking the game mechanics to do something for you that you ought to be doing yourself. Spies are caught in Eve the same way they are caught in the real world, by controlling information, systematic disinformation, and counter-intelligence. In simpler terms, to catch a spy you need a spy in his "real" alliance that is high enough up that he gets the intel, then you feed "tagged" intel out systematically until it comes back to your counter-spy. Then you know who your spy is. It's time consuming and difficult, but it's part of the game. As long as there are people in the game who are willing to lie to someone's face about their intentions, you have to be willing too, or you'll lose. That's the way it is in every MMO in the end game. You pretty much have to be willing to do whatever it takes, because if you aren't, someone else will be.
Catherine Frasier	Posted - 2008.09.09 20:54:00 - [58] Originally by: Synapse Archae 2. The end of alt-forum posting (yay) Oh goodie. Now everyone who expresses an opinion about game mechanics, CCP's decisions or even last night's hockey game can have their character threatened and/or attacked in-game for having the temerity to speak up. That should make the forums a nice open arena for discussing the game, eh? Far better that we all post with our account name or some permanent (non-character) forum name than that we be forced to subject our characters to the thuggery of those players who won't tolerate opinions that differ from their own. Obviously IC forums should (and do) require IC posting. The others should not, and do not.
Synapse Archae Amarr Demonic Retribution Un-Natural Selection	Posted - 2008.09.09 21:43:00 - [59] God forbid you might actually have to take responsibility for what you say in a video game. I think it might lead to people actually thinking before they post. Net neutrality doesn't extend to fictional characters, guys. That's not an issue here. Originally by: CCP Garthagk While these forums may not give you everything that you want, they will usually let you post.
Plim Gallente Oursulaert Technology Institute	Posted - 2008.09.09 21:47:00 - [60] This would be shite. I have two different accounts so that I can play two completely different personas and play styles. Rudolf: "I was sworn to absolute secrecy by Santa Claus."
Black Scorpio	Posted - 2008.09.09 21:48:00 - [61] Originally by: Plim This would be shite. I have two different accounts so that I can play two completely different personas and play styles. you hypocrite..
Plim Gallente Oursulaert Technology Institute	Posted - 2008.09.09 21:52:00 - [62] Originally by: Black Scorpio Originally by: Plim This would be shite. I have two different accounts so that I can play two completely different personas and play styles. you hypocrite.. Like playing different colours in chess games makes one a hypocrite. Rudolf: "I was sworn to absolute secrecy by Santa Claus."
Somealt Ofmine	Posted - 2008.09.09 22:10:00 - [63] Originally by: Synapse Archae God forbid you might actually have to take responsibility for what you say in a video game. I think it might lead to people actually thinking before they post. It would lead to the same people controling the forums who control the game, pretty much. Having people unwilling to state any opinion that isn't favored by the in-game elite for fear of retribution isn't such a good idea. Many folks would simply stop posting, then the elite could all join hands, sing cum-by-ah, and congratulate each other on how smart and cool they are. Not my idea of good, but hey, I wouldn't cry myself to sleep over it.
Catherine Frasier	Posted - 2008.09.09 22:32:00 - [64] Originally by: Synapse Archae God forbid you might actually have to take responsibility for what you say in a video game. I think it might lead to people actually thinking before they post. You're completely missing the point. This forum, this community, should be open to everyone that plays the game. It should not be open only to those with the PvP clout to defend in-game their right to participate out-of-game. As to "taking responsibility for what I post", what does that even mean? The forums have rules, they are moderated (although how thoroughly and how well might be a matter of opinion). What valid purpose is served by vigilante censorship of out-of-character forums? (Of course, if you're one of the people intimidating others to stop them from disagreeing with you, that purpose is quite clear.)
Roy Batty68 Caldari Immortal Dead	Posted - 2008.09.09 23:24:00 - [65] It might be interesting to see how people would change the way they act, but I think it's going from one extreme to the other. What I would prefer to see is new toys added to the game so you could do something like a cargo scan on character data. And like a cargo scan, it wouldn't be 100% accurate. You would get bits and pieces of it. And by data, I mean the kind of info you can get using the Full API key. Maybe extended a bit to contain security change or transaction location info. Plus there should be an element of risk associated with it. CONCORD busts you hacking around their database, they might offer your victim a freeby wardec or a couple days of killrights. The potential in that is smart players would eventually be able to put together a trail of evidence such as: - Who might be supplying Pirate X with goods from hisec - Who is aiding Alliance Y - Who might be an alt of who given frequent direct character to character trades - etc That doesn't go directly after alts, but simply which character (or corp) is associating with which other character(s). Would probably often be X is an alt of Y, but within the game context, who cares? If you can determine that: - Johnny "no threat" Miner Guy is funding Bloodn'Guts Breath - And Bloodn'Guts Breath is a known suicide ganker who just popped your indy = well... Johnny "I'm innocent" Miner Guy isn't so innocent, is he? Doesn't really matter if one is the alt of the other in the context of the game. The end result is the same. Yeah, smart players will find ways to secure their transactions so the above means of snooping is less valuable, but so what? Not all will, and it adds another layer of complexity to the game and more ways for us to interact. To me the idea that I'm fuzzy Carebear guy on this character and I'm nasty pirate guy on this character and I should be treated accordingly depending on which one I'm on, is totally invalidated as soon as one starts funding the other. That action, Carebear char funding PvP char, is relevent to the game and it should be possible to direct retribution accordingly. People thinking they are entitled to that "privacy" are just spoiled on the current design of the game and are soaking up benefits that aren't necessarily balanced. So, on alts in general, I think it's a bit of a non-issue. What's missing is the possibility to investigate character to character associations a bit more intrinsically. Keep it focused on "in game" contexts. And that should also address some concerns with alts as well. That scammer sitting in jita 4-4 all day probably isn't doing it just for their health. That isk is probably going somewhere. And that somewhere is your real target since scammer char never leaves the station anyway. As to alt posters, who gives a shit really? Obvious alt posters already lose a certain amount of credibility simply because of how they are posting. So not a problem to solve imo. Sig removed, inappropriate content. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Ami Nia	Posted - 2008.09.10 00:09:00 - [66] Originally by: Synapse Archae I do program and I do work in software so I'm not totally speaking out of my ass here. You are speaking out of your ass. Not because of lack of information about software development, but because of lack of information on reality (especially if we 'extend' the notion of reality to something larger than your country). Originally by: Synapse Archae IP address, while not admissable in court, could conceivably play a part in an algorythm, so long as it wasn't heavily relied upon. There are many ISPs that actually do not offer you a public address. They basically do NAT over the whole of their customer base. The one I use is probably the third most important ISP of my country and does exactly that. Not good if you want to put up a server or SSH back to your home, but very good if you want fibre speed internet at home at the cost of a DSL (yes: i do have a fibre at home, even if at the moment I only pay for a bandwidth of 10mb/s balanced and only plan to get it up to 20mb/s in the near future). I'm doing guesswork here, but probably 20% of the thousands of EvE players from my nation are on this ISP too and they all come out of a bunch of IPs that you can count on your fingers. Not sure how you are going to use those IPs to identify us. Originally by: Synapse Archae To create an alt beyond this would be certainly possible And easy too. Originally by: Synapse Archae but would require a separate shipping address As long as you need not ship me anything, I can fake you shipping addresses in bulk. If you do need to send something, ship to a "customer number xxx, c/o Post Box service ... whatever". Getting a new customer number will probably cost a few dollars. Originally by: Synapse Archae a separate credit card with a separate billing address Not all credit cards actually have a name and an address on them. Yes, I know you are used to those that have. But there's no requirement. Also I know of at least one service where I pay a one time fee (around 10$) and they set me up a debit service. I can recharge (put money) on that account whenever I want. When I need to pay by credit card I can connect to an internet site and enter my customer code, an amount, and an expiration date (like, 3 weeks, for example). They will give me a new credit card number valid for 3 to 5 years, totally anonymous. Not bound to any name or address. However that number will be 'retired' as soon as the amount I specified is charged OR the time limit I gave has passed. No, this is not some strange outlaw service: it's done by a major national bank and backed up by VISA. It is not strongly advertised, but it exists and is perfectly legal. Now, how are you really going to bind a credit card number to an account, knowing I (and many others) can give you a different perfectly valid and functioning credit card number for each payment we make? Originally by: Synapse Archae a separate email address Are you really a programmer? Do you really have the slightest idea of what is a mail address? I never use the same email twice. Even to my friends and relatives I gave a different one for each. Especially those that use Outlook. Guess why? Originally by: Synapse Archae and a Pseudonym which wouldn't break Eve's EULA What for? The alt name? We already do. The login ID? There's no EULA for that. Really: there's no way to enforce a single account per customer. --- Originally by: CCP Mitnal So we can 1 v 1 with Garmon.
Rhatar Khurin Minmatar Native Freshfood	Posted - 2008.09.10 01:07:00 - [67] I would be very happy indeed. Can't stand people who use forum alts.
Locke DieDrake Human Information Virus	Posted - 2008.09.10 01:45:00 - [68] Originally by: Synapse Archae Edited by: Synapse Archae on 09/09/2008 05:47:46 What if you could search an any character, deleted or not, and find all characters past and present who are either on the same account, or the account is owned by the same player? GTCs are the obvious way around this, but adding some identifier to GTCs wouldn't be that hard. A requirement to provide your name or your mailing address perhaps. The player's real name or any RL information would not be shown, obviously, but all characters you control or have controlled would be permanently logged and shown as one linked group. Some interesting benefits: 1. Spies have to actually go BE in the enemy alliance/corp instead of just using an alt. Raises the value and risk, and arguably the fun, of being a spy. 2. The end of alt-forum posting (yay) 3. Scammers would have to hide from or deal with the resulting reputation. 4. Enough trust could be built to support real banking and stocks. Honestly I see very little bad that could come from it. What does the forum think? Discuss. I don't alt post and I always disclose my accounts to anyone I fly with so they know who not to shoot. That being said, your idea won't work. Here is why. A) there is now no verification that the data I put into the forms is accurate. In fact it's not, because it has no reason to be, so in my case, my multiple accounts have similar but not identical data. B) I use prepaid cash cards to pay my sub right now, variously over the years I've used 3 different bank accounts and an actual credit card, only some of those have my real name on them. (in fact only one did) C) I've moved 5 times since I started playing eve and all my mail goes to my PO box instead of my actual address because it's too much trouble to update all the time. If eve ever had my address, it would be out of date by now. D) Even assuming some checks were put in place, nothing is fool proof and being that I now have years of expertise in the online marketplace, and access to 2 companies worth of credit cards, plus my personal accounts (under 2 different legal names) and then my friends and family... I'd have no trouble bypassing anything that CCP put in place. (and doesn't even begin to cover actually breaking the law, which opens up all kinds of other doors) E) You can't use IPs and I shouldn't even have to begin to explain why. In short, they change, sometimes often. F) You don't have any really valid reasons to force players to identify themselves. I'd resent it if you somehow forced it, and I'd probably provide false information as I often do because CCP has no valid reason to know who I am, where I live or pretty much anything else. The only place online that has my real data is my bank, all the rest I use an alias with a forwarded post address that goes to a PO box that isn't registered in my name. Good luck. Paranoid you say? I was a professional data miner for a while. You're data is not safe, I've probably already seen it in fact, and then I sold it to some ******* that spams you with it. Phone, mail, email, TXTmsg, IM, you name it. You'd be surprised who gives your data away, or sells it, or who is just crappy at web design and doesn't protect it. A few good examples.... Myspace (if you are over 18), Facebook, Photobucket, Imeem, Paypal (oh yeah), etc etc etc. Lastly, if players were ASKED to disclose what accounts/alts they have, I'd cooperate. But don't think for a second you can force it. On that note, my main is Locke diedrake, my alt is Chloe diedrake (deviously clever disguise, I know), and my industrial is Tera Nok. There, you know all my accounts. ______________________________________________ Goon FC(08/12/06):"its a trap" "that thing is fully operational"
Khrillian Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2008.09.10 03:07:00 - [69] Originally by: Hugo Splat Originally by: TheG2 But theres no real difference to the real world. In the real world, I can create fake ID's, or even steal someones identity to commit fraud or scams. Its nothing like the real world Ever woken up and decided to play a female today? Yeah didnt think so Also, can you tell me where the asset search function is IRL?
Soporo Caldari	Posted - 2008.09.10 05:29:00 - [70] Quote: What if anonymity were completely removed from Eve? The WarDecs would fall like rain.

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