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Taikun Gallente 20th Legion Southern Cross Alliance	Posted - 2008.09.19 09:57:00 - [1] Edited by: Taikun on 19/09/2008 09:58:35 Now I am sure some... but not all are aware of this. (I have suspected for a long time but never bothered to confirm) However I now can confirm that market bot hackers exist in Jita. I have bought 4 billion worth of trit and noticed a funny thing while buying. I selected each seller and bought... and noticed that when I bought 113,353,612 units off of one char and bought... but immediatly they had the same amount up for sale again. So I bought that as well. Sure enough.... my money went through and got the trit... Only to find another load up for sale. Same volume, same price. I have done this five times. Just a FYI for those that use market "volumes" as an indicator of supply for their calculations... trust them as much as you trust CCP. Taikun A criminal is a person with predatory instincts who has not sufficient capital to form a corporation.
Samuel Sandstorm Positronics	Posted - 2008.09.19 10:31:00 - [2] Edited by: Samuel Sandstorm on 19/09/2008 10:31:38 And I'm sure the 113,353,612 units you bought were the lowest available offer at the station you did your purchasing?
Treelox Amarr Market Jihadist Revolutionary Party	Posted - 2008.09.19 10:39:00 - [3] Edited by: Treelox on 19/09/2008 10:39:13 Originally by: Taikun I selected each seller and bought... I hope you know that you can not "select" who you buy from. It always comes from the lowest priced seller. You do end up paying the higher price though. p.s. cant blame the stapler for this one ---edit added the post script --
Zos Tarkross Amarr Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2008.09.19 10:57:00 - [4] so your hypothesis there is some bot programmed to watch the market and post buys/sells accordingly? It would have to be some sort of screen sc****r that can read the text on screen, no?
Catchura	Posted - 2008.09.19 11:25:00 - [5] Treelox has your answer. Your not the first to think this. But you are wrong squire.
Ialocin Caldari	Posted - 2008.09.19 12:19:00 - [6] Originally by: Treelox Edited by: Treelox on 19/09/2008 10:39:13 I hope you know that you can not "select" who you buy from. It always comes from the lowest priced seller. You do end up paying the higher price though. Wait a minute. Does that mean, that if there are 2 sell orders at a station, and i chose to buy from the most expensive one, i will ACTUALLY buy the cheap one's goods, but pay the expensive ones price? Example, If two people are selling Merlins at my station. 1. Sells for ISK 200.000 2. Sells for ISK 300.000 If I buy from 2, I end up paying ISK 300.000 but i buy from 1 ?
Confuzer Polaris Project Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2008.09.19 12:20:00 - [7] Edited by: Confuzer on 19/09/2008 12:20:35 Even a bot (that indeed would use some pattern recognition) would have the delay time. you buy much faster. So there still would be a moment you bought from the nest seller. But my guess also was that you bought from some with like 3.1 as price, while there was another seller with 3.1 or 3.0 on market. edit Yes Ialocin... ----------------- Destiny is not a matter of chance. It is a matter of choice. It's not a thing to be waited for - it is a thing to be achieved.*
Sharra Savente Domini Umbrus Free Trade Zone.	Posted - 2008.09.19 12:29:00 - [8] Originally by: Ialocin Originally by: Treelox Edited by: Treelox on 19/09/2008 10:39:13 I hope you know that you can not "select" who you buy from. It always comes from the lowest priced seller. You do end up paying the higher price though. Wait a minute. Does that mean, that if there are 2 sell orders at a station, and i chose to buy from the most expensive one, i will ACTUALLY buy the cheap one's goods, but pay the expensive ones price? Example, If two people are selling Merlins at my station. 1. Sells for ISK 200.000 2. Sells for ISK 300.000 If I buy from 2, I end up paying ISK 300.000 but i buy from 1 ? Yep, which is why the .01 isk game is so important. Otherwise people would have bigger increment drops. ____ English doesn't borrow from other languages; it follows other languages down dark alleys, coshes 'em, then rummages in their pockets for loose bits of grammar.
Taikun Gallente 20th Legion Southern Cross Alliance	Posted - 2008.09.19 12:47:00 - [9] Originally by: Treelox Edited by: Treelox on 19/09/2008 10:39:13 Originally by: Taikun I selected each seller and bought... I hope you know that you can not "select" who you buy from. It always comes from the lowest priced seller. You do end up paying the higher price though. Yes moron. I bought everything out by selecting from the lowest buy order in station first and walked the sell price up until I hit this "issue". Taikun P.S. Removed from your quote the troll comments. A criminal is a person with predatory instincts who has not sufficient capital to form a corporation.
Taikun Gallente 20th Legion Southern Cross Alliance	Posted - 2008.09.19 12:53:00 - [10] Originally by: Confuzer Edited by: Confuzer on 19/09/2008 12:20:35But my guess also was that you bought from some with like 3.1 as price, while there was another seller with 3.1 or 3.0 on market. You can "guess" all you want. Opinions are like A-Holes. Everyone got one and that all stink. I post facts. There was nobody "below" my purchase order price and I bought right thru the price break of the person who was "botting". Taikun A criminal is a person with predatory instincts who has not sufficient capital to form a corporation.
Confuzer Polaris Project Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2008.09.19 13:07:00 - [11] I just lost all appitite for this thread, odd, wonder what it could be. Aah well, good luck finding your answer. ----------------- Destiny is not a matter of chance. It is a matter of choice. It's not a thing to be waited for - it is a thing to be achieved.
Taikun Gallente 20th Legion Southern Cross Alliance	Posted - 2008.09.19 13:09:00 - [12] Originally by: Samuel Sandstorm Edited by: Samuel Sandstorm on 19/09/2008 10:31:38 And I'm sure the 113,353,612 units you bought were the lowest available offer at the station you did your purchasing? Yes it was. 100% certain because I bought everything prior to that amount. Like I said... I spent 4 billion buying Trit and didn't encounter this until 1.5 billion into my purchases. Refreshing the market for each and every purchase... my market window filtered to station... there is no doubt in my mind of what "occured". My purchases during this price break was over a 20 min period with a 10 min break during the period in question so there was no "market refresh" issue. Why was there a break in my buying pattern? Simple answer... I smelt a rat so I wanted to check my hypothosis. SOME perople in these forums are too gleeful of their own vitriol to accept the findings of others. Screw them. Too all the others, I provide this information because I enjoy exposing "issues" of unique importance within this game. Taikun A criminal is a person with predatory instincts who has not sufficient capital to form a corporation.
Taikun Gallente 20th Legion Southern Cross Alliance	Posted - 2008.09.19 13:11:00 - [13] Originally by: Confuzer I just lost all appitite for this thread, odd, wonder what it could be. Aah well, good luck finding your answer. Who the @#$% was asking a question?? I was TELLING you information. A simple thank you would suffice. Either that or don't bother to respond to my posts. Comprende Vous? Much love, Taikun A criminal is a person with predatory instincts who has not sufficient capital to form a corporation.
Confuzer Polaris Project Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2008.09.19 13:13:00 - [14] Edited by: Confuzer on 19/09/2008 13:16:06 Okay can't hold myself. IF you post theories, make sure to communicate your tests of how you concluded this. if you miss a test result in your OP, and someone asks for it, just give it instead of being so... yourself... Imagine me making a thread saying: "CCP are all bots, I proved it so FYI!" without any other info. Come on, be realistic. edit: and to state an opinion: you are wrong, you made a mistake, it doesn't make sense to me. ----------------- Destiny is not a matter of chance. It is a matter of choice. It's not a thing to be waited for - it is a thing to be achieved.*
Taikun Gallente 20th Legion Southern Cross Alliance	Posted - 2008.09.19 13:16:00 - [15] Originally by: Confuzer I just lost all appitite for this thread Liar Taikun A criminal is a person with predatory instincts who has not sufficient capital to form a corporation.
Rho'varo Minmatar Diversified Operational Services	Posted - 2008.09.19 13:55:00 - [16] Originally by: Taikun I bought everything out by selecting from the lowest buy order in station first and walked the buy price up thru many "sellers" until I hit this "issue" with the bot. When selling to a bid "above" another that looks like it has the same price (when the orders are sorted in descending order of price), it is possible that you are selling to the second-listed bid: I tested this myself with my own orders. I realise that you are talking about asks, but it is possible that the same occurs (buying from "second" of two similarly priced-orders), though I don't know if it would even be a possibility in your situation (i.e., was there a second similarly priced order?). Just out of further curiosity, did you export the market orders to see any extra decimal places that there might be? Did you contact the seller to ask them about this? Who was the seller? Did you petition the matter?
Confuzer Polaris Project Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2008.09.19 14:02:00 - [17] Well, I buy ALOT in Jita and monitor WHO I am buying it from. There are a few chars with alot of transactions: Aslord, Shrouded Figure, Val'ka and ThaVin Lianocen, but they stick to a few items so I think these are just 0.1 veterans. I never got a clue that I was buying from a bot. If you see repetitive market actions like this with the odd number of 113,353,612 from ONE char, then report him to CCP and ask what they know about it. ----------------- Destiny is not a matter of chance. It is a matter of choice. It's not a thing to be waited for - it is a thing to be achieved.
Ricdic Caldari	Posted - 2008.09.19 14:07:00 - [18] I would definitely be petitioning this if you are 100% certain this happened. The solution that Treelox explained sounds far more likely however I know you are pretty knowledgeable when it comes to this kind of thing so wouldn't expect you to make a mistake like this 5 times. Petition is the best way to get your answer as it is quite strange (however I did lol at your thread subject)
Midas Man Caldari Dzark Asylum	Posted - 2008.09.19 14:09:00 - [19] I have noticed something similar once when trying to manipulate a market. There was a single unit available that reappeared everytime I bought from it, I bought it 10 time got all 10 items and paid the isk for each Item but it was still their. I could never work out if it was a bot. My own take was someone had placed numerous sell orders at the same value and the client "Stacked" them. I never got round to testing the theory though. I will give it a go this evening after work. I once prayed to God for a bike, but quickly found out he didnt work that way...so I stole a bike and prayed for his forgiveness.
Taikun Gallente 20th Legion Southern Cross Alliance	Posted - 2008.09.19 14:12:00 - [20] Originally by: Rho'varo When selling to a bid "above" another that looks like it has the same price (when the orders are sorted in descending order of price), it is possible that you are selling to the second-listed bid: I tested this myself with my own orders. I realise that you are talking about asks, but it is possible that the same occurs (buying from "second" of two similarly priced-orders), though I don't know if it would even be a possibility in your situation (i.e., was there a second similarly priced order?). Nope. Even price breaks of 0.01 isk. Originally by: Rho'varo Just out of further curiosity, did you export the market orders to see any extra decimal places that there might be? Did you contact the seller to ask them about this? Who was the seller? Did you petition the matter? a) Yes and it only confirms my suspicion and intuition. b) No, did not contact the seller. What wouold be the point? I already know the answer to: "Are you running a market bot" c) No, because CCP would ram a large splitered broomstick up my forum account hole if I started posting account names in here. d) If I had ANY faith in CCP petitions whatsoever I wouldn't bother posting about it in here. I am sick of petitioning CCP. Now I prefer to link to my posts and gain kudos amongst friends for hightighting issues years before CCP us aware of them, and decades before they do anything about it. Cheers, Taikun A criminal is a person with predatory instincts who has not sufficient capital to form a corporation.
Feronia Gallente Magma Industries	Posted - 2008.09.19 14:12:00 - [21] The same thing has happened to me before. I suspect the market is buggy in a way that sometimes when multiple sell orders are listed at the same price, not all of them are visible. So you think you're buying from the visible order but instead you're taking chunks of the invisible sell order(s). If you keep buying in the end the visible order will disappear. I tried a few times to reproduce this bug but never succeeded. Anyway, I don't believe its some kind of market hacking bot.
Juliette Leblanc Gallente Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2008.09.19 14:29:00 - [22] Assuming it is a market bot, there are chances that it will still take a little time for it to repost. Especially if you buy two consecutive full batches. The only way it can do it instantly every time is if the bot is not parsing info from the screen and posting KB/Mouse input to the game client but has actually reverse engineered the protocol and is in fact not using an official client at all. You probably already did several tests. But here is what I would do (if I had the money and wanted to find out more): - make sure the market filter is set to region (no filter) so that I minimize the chance that there's a market filtering bug somewhere. - make sure the 'bot' sell order is the cheapest (of course) - export the market data, partially buy the order, export the new market data, buyout the rest of the order, refresh, buyout again the full order, refresh and export. Then go and check: - that the seller is always the same and the partial buy order did effectively modify the available stock - the time it takes it to repost both after the first buyout and after the second
Augeas	Posted - 2008.09.19 14:30:00 - [23] Originally by: Midas Man I have noticed something similar once when trying to manipulate a market. There was a single unit available that reappeared everytime I bought from it, I bought it 10 time got all 10 items and paid the isk for each Item but it was still their. I could never work out if it was a bot. My own take was someone had placed numerous sell orders at the same value and the client "Stacked" them. I never got round to testing the theory though. I will give it a go this evening after work. Yeah, I've noticed rare market oddities just like this. I know all about the fun only-buy-from-lowest-seller-in-station feature, BTW, and no market filters were involved. And I'm pretty sure it's a bug, not a bot - the bot-like behaviour can be dealt with easily. Specifically - I was trying to buy up some undervalued stock and was working through a list of sell orders. After buying out several orders, I noticed that the last order had not disappeared. I figured it was a screen bug and tried to buy it out again. Again, the items appeared in my hangar, and my wallet decreased - but the order did not change - not even its duration changed, so it wasn't a new order just placed. Even relogging did not fix it. A few hours later, the problem order had disappeared.
Isk Ho	Posted - 2008.09.19 14:30:00 - [24] Could it be connected with this kind of thing? My other thought on it is that it could be connected with the market bugginess we're seeing at the moment (broker could not find the order etc) - could there be some kind of issue going on where for some reason the actual order you're buying from is somehow invisible/hidden? Using the Jita market is a PITA right now with the new spawn of bugs since the last patch.
Ceola Tyn'Vile	Posted - 2008.09.19 14:33:00 - [25] So you have the transaction logs and export files to support your theories. Is there any reason you cannot post them or let someone look them over to confirm suspicion?
Rho'varo Minmatar Diversified Operational Services	Posted - 2008.09.19 14:33:00 - [26] Originally by: Taikun b) No, did not contact the seller. What would be the point? I already know the answer to: "Are you running a market bot" I would definitely take a different approach: "Where'd you get all that Trit?", "Do you have more that you want to sell off market to avoid fees?" and then get into a discussion... Originally by: Taikun c) No, because CCP would ram a large splitered broomstick up my forum account hole if I started posting account names in here. I meant only pilot/character/corporation names that anyone could see for themselves simply by replicating your transactions or viewing your transactions through the API (if you chose to make that available... and I'm not suggesting you do, just pointing out that you could).
Block Ukx Block Ships and Ammunitions	Posted - 2008.09.19 14:36:00 - [27] I see this all the time when orders are priced identically. Typically when you sort by price it sorts quantity from lowest to highest. Therefore when you buy from the smaller order because it is sorted first, you are really buying from the largest order. BSAC Mineral Market Manipulation (MinMa) Information Desk
Taikun Gallente 20th Legion Southern Cross Alliance	Posted - 2008.09.19 14:38:00 - [28] Originally by: Ricdic The solution that Treelox explained sounds far more likely however I know you are pretty knowledgeable when it comes to this kind of thing so wouldn't expect you to make a mistake like this 5 times. I would agree that it sounds more likely, which is why I dumped more isk in to checking the situation out myself. I was curious. As you say, I have lived off of buying and selling on the market enough to be acutely aware on how it operates and it's unusual quirks. What I found was that I wasn't making a "missed" undercutter mistake. (Which I must admit I thought I did after the first buy) This was something quite different. After reviewing my buys, and to whom I bought from, I have concluded that it was either a market bot/hacker etc, or serious glitch in the market itself that fails to report all sell offers. (Even after extended periods between purchases) Either way I am not worried about it as knowing about it now gives me a certain advantage. I just want to go on record as reporting my experiences to the market. (To point to when there is a patch to address it) Taikun A criminal is a person with predatory instincts who has not sufficient capital to form a corporation.
Taikun Gallente 20th Legion Southern Cross Alliance	Posted - 2008.09.19 14:43:00 - [29] Originally by: Feronia The same thing has happened to me before. I suspect the market is buggy in a way that sometimes when multiple sell orders are listed at the same price, not all of them are visible. So you think you're buying from the visible order but instead you're taking chunks of the invisible sell order(s). If you keep buying in the end the visible order will disappear. I tried a few times to reproduce this bug but never succeeded. Anyway, I don't believe its some kind of market hacking bot. NOW this sniff like something I experienced. A market bug with invisable sell orders would explain why the viable order remains up for sale aftyer I "purchase" it. However, I used the "place buy order" and the avaialble amount came up as what was visably available. So the "invisable" sell order is invisable not only for market search, but to the "place buy order" button as well. If this is the case... this is a fundamental breakage of the market. What is more worrisome is if people can place "invisable" sell orders up on purpose via some exploit. Who knows. Taikun A criminal is a person with predatory instincts who has not sufficient capital to form a corporation.
Block Ukx Block Ships and Ammunitions	Posted - 2008.09.19 14:52:00 - [30] There is no bug. Market sells largest order first; probably to avoid people undercutting with a smaller quantity. BSAC Mineral Market Manipulation (MinMa) Information Desk

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