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Treelox Amarr Market Jihadist Revolutionary Party	Posted - 2008.09.20 03:03:00 - [61] Originally by: Ricdics Sorry Treelox I didn't notice your mention of stapler earlier plus I generally don't read your posts You miss out on great wisdom, by ignoring them. Wisdom of the Ages, that is not sugar coated, pink ponies, of flowery dribble. --
Professor Leech Transmetropolitan	Posted - 2008.09.20 03:12:00 - [62] I can't believe this thread made it to three pages. I must be getting tired of the same speculation about market "hackers". Originally by: Crawe DeRaven this thread is obviously going places
Frenden Dax	Posted - 2008.09.20 03:15:00 - [63] If someone actually hacked the Jita market then that would be awe-inspiring. The total chaos of all orders being set to 1 isk would be...
Taikun Gallente 20th Legion Southern Cross Alliance	Posted - 2008.09.20 04:00:00 - [64] Edited by: Taikun on 20/09/2008 04:00:21 Originally by: Professor Leech I can't believe this thread made it to three pages. I must be getting tired of the same speculation about market "hackers". Who gives a flying @%$% what you think. Contribute to the discussion or crawl in a hole and die for all I care. I have PROVEN to myself and those who would listen, that there is a mechanisim in place where total volume of sales is NOT being reported for large purchases. I have asserted that it is a exploit/hack issue. Some suggest that it is a "bug". Thats their opinion. You just came here to whine about the topics others wish to discuss. Blow away pipsqueek. You are annoying. Taikun A criminal is a person with predatory instincts who has not sufficient capital to form a corporation.
Taikun Gallente 20th Legion Southern Cross Alliance	Posted - 2008.09.20 04:04:00 - [65] Originally by: Ricdics Edited by: Ricdics on 20/09/2008 02:48:50 Here you go I had to pull it up as I want some reading material whilst at work. edit: I can't find the direct thread related Thanks Ric... It is indeed a great read. My fav lines are Originally by: Taikun CCP needs to fire the person who has allowed this joke of coding to continue. They need to find the coder in charge of that aspect of the game and fire them ASAP. They need to post a picture of them and their family that will have a crappy christmas because mommy/daddy sucked so much at their jobs they got bounced for being useless and lazy. I believe in this as stongly today as I did then. NO excuses for lazy, crappy buggy coding. Taikun A criminal is a person with predatory instincts who has not sufficient capital to form a corporation.
Professor Leech Transmetropolitan	Posted - 2008.09.20 05:26:00 - [66] Originally by: Taikun Edited by: Taikun on 20/09/2008 04:00:21 Originally by: Professor Leech I can't believe this thread made it to three pages. I must be getting tired of the same speculation about market "hackers". Who gives a flying @%$% what you think. Contribute to the discussion or crawl in a hole and die for all I care. I have PROVEN to myself and those who would listen, that there is a mechanisim in place where total volume of sales is NOT being reported for large purchases. I have asserted that it is a exploit/hack issue. Some suggest that it is a "bug". Thats their opinion. You just came here to whine about the topics others wish to discuss. Blow away pipsqueek. You are annoying. Taikun Look how dumb you are. This thread is a waste of space because it's just a re-hash of all the other similar threads about market bots and people not understanding how the market works. That and some of the market problems, which are bugs, that have cropped up. Your whining and trolling is tiresome along with your worn out posting style. Originally by: Crawe DeRaven this thread is obviously going places
Shar Tegral	Posted - 2008.09.20 05:41:00 - [67] Originally by: Professor Leech Your whining and trolling is tiresome along with your worn out posting style. As one who has had a lot of difficulties in the past with Taikun I've found this to work: If you read something of his that you find worth responding to, respond to it. Don't troll him as he quickly goes ballistic and don't fight back with him as anything he considers trolling doesn't register. It may antagonize him but doesn't register. As to rehashing old stuff: Don't we all? To Shar -verb: 1 - To say what you mean. 2 - To say what it means. 3 - To say something mean.
Professor Leech Transmetropolitan	Posted - 2008.09.20 05:48:00 - [68] Originally by: Shar Tegral Originally by: Professor Leech Your whining and trolling is tiresome along with your worn out posting style. As one who has had a lot of difficulties in the past with Taikun I've found this to work: If you read something of his that you find worth responding to, respond to it. Don't troll him as he quickly goes ballistic and don't fight back with him as anything he considers trolling doesn't register. It may antagonize him but doesn't register. As to rehashing old stuff: Don't we all? Duly noted Shar. Eve-o forums aren't safe for people that go ballistic after one comment. You need thick skin around here. Originally by: Crawe DeRaven this thread is obviously going places
Taikun Gallente 20th Legion Southern Cross Alliance	Posted - 2008.09.20 06:04:00 - [69] Originally by: Professor Leech You need thick skin around here. You need to keep your mouth shut about what others want to discuss in here. Don't like the topic? That is just peachy fine. But word to the wise... keep your lips buttoned and they won't get smacked. Flap them around and expect a response. Simple huh? Taikun A criminal is a person with predatory instincts who has not sufficient capital to form a corporation.
Ricdics Tleilex Developments	Posted - 2008.09.20 06:15:00 - [70] Taikun you bring so much quality drama to the forums. I may not agree with lots of what you say but it is fantastic entertainment
Danari Syncore	Posted - 2008.09.20 10:09:00 - [71] lol this thread is like watching timmy vs jimmy.
frank frankenson	Posted - 2008.09.20 21:00:00 - [72] maybe taikun is ajita market hacker and is trying to throw us all off by flaming about jita market hackers.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2008.09.21 06:28:00 - [73] Originally by: Taikun Edited by: Taikun on 19/09/2008 13:51:28 Originally by: Treelox Edited by: Treelox on 19/09/2008 10:39:13 Originally by: Taikun I selected each seller and bought... I hope you know that you can not "select" who you buy from. It always comes from the lowest priced seller. You do end up paying the higher price though. Yes moron. I bought everything out by selecting from the lowest buy order in station first (by using the "place buy order" button) and walked the buy price up thru many "sellers" until I hit this "issue" with the bot. (The lowest available matched the lowest value in station Jita IV-IV) Taikun P.S. Removed from your quote the troll comments. It was the sell order with the lowest time amount remaining too? Check from who you brought the stuff and see if the seller is the same. Last thing, if youa re still sure it is a bot, petition.
Rho'varo Minmatar Diversified Operational Services	Posted - 2008.09.21 07:09:00 - [74] Originally by: Venkul Mul It was the sell order with the lowest time amount remaining too? What's significant is not how much time is remaining on the order per se but which order was placed first. I.e., of two orders at the same price, a 90-day order placed a few minutes before a 30-day order gets matched first, even though the 30-day order has less time remaining.
Professor Leech Transmetropolitan	Posted - 2008.09.21 23:37:00 - [75] Originally by: Taikun Edited by: Taikun on 20/09/2008 06:05:26 Originally by: Professor Leech You need thick skin around here. You need to keep your mouth shut about what others want to discuss in here. Don't like the topic? That is just peachy fine but dont post your off-topic yabber about it. Word to the wise... keep your lips buttoned and they won't get smacked. Flap them around and expect a response. Simple huh? Taikun Proof or stfu. I agree with others in this thread; you are the Jita market hacker. You should stop hacking CCP's systems as it is illegal. Originally by: Crawe DeRaven this thread is obviously going places
Shar Tegral	Posted - 2008.09.22 00:34:00 - [76] Edited by: Shar Tegral on 22/09/2008 00:33:55 Originally by: Venkul Mul It was the sell order with the lowest time amount remaining too? Originally by: Rho'varo What's significant is not how much time is remaining on the order per se but which order was placed first. I.e., of two orders at the same price, a 90-day order placed a few minutes before a 30-day order gets matched first, even though the 30-day order has less time remaining. I constantly find myself laughing at this misconception. I see it all the time when people try to use smaller durations to beat out orders. LOL. To Shar -verb: 1 - To say what you mean. 2 - To say what it means. 3 - To say something mean.
Joss Sparq Caldari ANZAC ALLIANCE Southern Cross Alliance	Posted - 2008.09.22 01:06:00 - [77] I don't have any comment on the specific incident reported by Taikun, but I would be unsurprised to discover there are some kind of bot based shenanigan's going on in the Jita market.
Professor Leech Transmetropolitan	Posted - 2008.09.22 01:19:00 - [78] Edited by: Professor Leech on 22/09/2008 01:21:22 Edited by: Professor Leech on 22/09/2008 01:20:59 Originally by: Joss Sparq I don't have any comment on the specific incident reported by Taikun, but I would be unsurprised to discover there are some kind of bot based shenanigan's going on in the Jita market. I don't doubt it. I'm sure there are a significant number of bots operating on the markets. They've been there since escrow days. Originally by: Crawe DeRaven this thread is obviously going places
Lo Lightshard Insurrection Inc Tygris Alliance	Posted - 2008.09.22 02:10:00 - [79] What does the bot gain from this kind of transaction? If it was undercutting or listing smaller volumes perhaps I can see some benefit but if it is just blindly relisting large quantities at a fixed price ... OP, doesn't Block Ukx have a reasonable explanation of this behaviour unless you refute some of his assumptions? [IMA6E REMOVED]
Joss Sparq Caldari ANZAC ALLIANCE Southern Cross Alliance	Posted - 2008.09.22 02:42:00 - [80] Originally by: Lo Lightshard What does the bot gain from this kind of transaction? At a guess, I would say that it gives the bot user an advantage over other users when it involves any commodity with large volumes and a stable price. For example, a bulk mineral seller could establish the bot to refill their sell order every time they are emptied while the bot user is asleep/can't otherwise manage their trading mechanisms. This means they're involved in the market up to 24 hours a day as opposed to regular users who need to take breaks/suffer periods where they can't access their account to manage their orders which may fill/empty during those periods they lack access. What would be really frightening to me is a bot that can (basically) buy low and sell high consistently over 24 hours, with bot reaction speeds. Though, I'm just postulating a theory here.
Rho'varo Minmatar Diversified Operational Services	Posted - 2008.09.22 03:00:00 - [81] Originally by: Lo Lightshard Doesn't Block Ukx have a reasonable explanation of this behaviour unless you refute some of his assumptions? Block Ukx's claims (1, 2, 3) were indeed refuted on the second page of this very thread.
Professor Leech Transmetropolitan	Posted - 2008.09.22 03:06:00 - [82] Originally by: Joss Sparq What would be really frightening to me is a bot that can (basically) buy low and sell high consistently over 24 hours, with bot reaction speeds. Though, I'm just postulating a theory here. When I was investigating macros and looking at methods to counter them I was rather disturbed by what I found. I won't give specific details as I do not want to encourage any more macro users (as if ruining the ice market wasn't enough for macro users) but the bots can have a high level of sophistication. The bot will adapt as the programmer/operator adapts. To answer the previous question as to the benefit; turnover. The higher the volume of sales at any profit margin means more profit. Originally by: Crawe DeRaven this thread is obviously going places
Joss Sparq Caldari ANZAC ALLIANCE Southern Cross Alliance	Posted - 2008.09.22 06:06:00 - [83] Originally by: Professor Leech Originally by: Joss Sparq What would be really frightening to me is a bot that can (basically) buy low and sell high consistently over 24 hours, with bot reaction speeds. Though, I'm just postulating a theory here. When I was investigating macros and looking at methods to counter them I was rather disturbed by what I found. I won't give specific details as I do not want to encourage any more macro users (as if ruining the ice market wasn't enough for macro users) but the bots can have a high level of sophistication. The bot will adapt as the programmer/operator adapts. I fondly remember back when the asteroid (and then ice) macro miners were relatively unsophisticated. Though I didn't (and still don't) approve of them, they did make for a nice bit of supplementary income at the time (and at their expense) plus a welcome - if all too infrequent - chance for PvP combat. These days I've mostly given up on it though, both from moving on to other pursuits and having interacted with them to the point that they advanced to a level I rarely found worth my time to interfere with any further. So, I agree. Originally by: Professor Leech To answer the previous question as to the benefit; turnover. The higher the volume of sales at any profit margin means more profit. A much more eloquent version of what I was trying to state!
Lo Lightshard Insurrection Inc Tygris Alliance	Posted - 2008.09.22 06:56:00 - [84] Originally by: Rho'varo Originally by: Lo Lightshard Doesn't Block Ukx have a reasonable explanation of this behaviour unless you refute some of his assumptions? Block Ukx's claims (1, 2, 3) were indeed refuted on the second page of this very thread. Thank you. This is what I was looking for: Originally by: Taikun Originally by: Rho'varo (i.e., was there a second similarly priced order?). Nope. Even price breaks of 0.01 isk. I missed it on the first read through. [IMA6E REMOVED]
Lo Lightshard Insurrection Inc Tygris Alliance	Posted - 2008.09.22 06:58:00 - [85] Originally by: Professor Leech To answer the previous question as to the benefit; turnover. The higher the volume of sales at any profit margin means more profit. But how does this increase the volume of sales? What is the difference beween one 1B sell order and ten 100M sell orders if they are immediately listed on completion at the same price? [IMA6E REMOVED]
Professor Leech Transmetropolitan	Posted - 2008.09.22 07:11:00 - [86] Originally by: Lo Lightshard Originally by: Professor Leech To answer the previous question as to the benefit; turnover. The higher the volume of sales at any profit margin means more profit. But how does this increase the volume of sales? What is the difference beween one 1B sell order and ten 100M sell orders if they are immediately listed on completion at the same price? For example say there is a volume of sales on an item of 100 per day. If you're online and updating orders you might sell 30 of the day's total sales playing the 0.01 isk game. Now with a bot you could potentially capture all of the day's sales. Same goes for buy orders. Just an example. Originally by: Crawe DeRaven this thread is obviously going places
Lo Lightshard Insurrection Inc Tygris Alliance	Posted - 2008.09.22 07:18:00 - [87] Edited by: Lo Lightshard on 22/09/2008 07:26:51 Originally by: Professor Leech For example say there is a volume of sales on an item of 100 per day. If you're online and updating orders you might sell 30 of the day's total sales playing the 0.01 isk game. Now with a bot you could potentially capture all of the day's sales. Same goes for buy orders. Just an example. But the bot is not changing prices; it is not playing the 0.01 ISK game for 23 hours. Just re-listing a fixed volume at a fixed price when an order completes? Edit: Got it, in this case the price was the lowest in the station as all previous sells had been bought. [IMA6E REMOVED]
YouGotRipped Ewigkeit	Posted - 2008.09.22 07:23:00 - [88] Edited by: YouGotRipped on 22/09/2008 07:35:44 Originally by: Professor Leech If you're online and updating orders you might sell 30 of the day's total sales playing the 0.01 isk game. Now with a bot you could potentially capture all of the day's sales. Same goes for buy orders. Just an example. Programming an OCR bot to be competitive is just asking for trouble. Bots should be designed to bump your order from time to time as there are plenty of competition free windows during a day/month cycle for a high enough number of different items. 2-3 such bot accounts with successive daily online status/randomly spaced are virtually undetectable.
Zos Tarkross Amarr Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2008.09.22 09:05:00 - [89] Originally by: YouGotRipped Programming an OCR bot to be competitive is just asking for trouble. And really (putting on my diabolical hat) someone with the skills to do it should switch from playing EvE to online poker or something like that. Risk of being caught is the same but with an online poker bot playing low stakes at least one would be earning real money... As a general philosophy perhaps it is best not to worry about market bots. Just figure out a way to enjoy the game...
Phelan K'ell	Posted - 2008.09.22 09:58:00 - [90] ?

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