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Taikun Gallente 20th Legion Southern Cross Alliance	Posted - 2008.09.19 09:57:00 - [1] Edited by: Taikun on 19/09/2008 09:58:35 Now I am sure some... but not all are aware of this. (I have suspected for a long time but never bothered to confirm) However I now can confirm that market bot hackers exist in Jita. I have bought 4 billion worth of trit and noticed a funny thing while buying. I selected each seller and bought... and noticed that when I bought 113,353,612 units off of one char and bought... but immediatly they had the same amount up for sale again. So I bought that as well. Sure enough.... my money went through and got the trit... Only to find another load up for sale. Same volume, same price. I have done this five times. Just a FYI for those that use market "volumes" as an indicator of supply for their calculations... trust them as much as you trust CCP. Taikun A criminal is a person with predatory instincts who has not sufficient capital to form a corporation.
Samuel Sandstorm Positronics	Posted - 2008.09.19 10:31:00 - [2] Edited by: Samuel Sandstorm on 19/09/2008 10:31:38 And I'm sure the 113,353,612 units you bought were the lowest available offer at the station you did your purchasing?
Treelox Amarr Market Jihadist Revolutionary Party	Posted - 2008.09.19 10:39:00 - [3] Edited by: Treelox on 19/09/2008 10:39:13 Originally by: Taikun I selected each seller and bought... I hope you know that you can not "select" who you buy from. It always comes from the lowest priced seller. You do end up paying the higher price though. p.s. cant blame the stapler for this one ---edit added the post script --
Zos Tarkross Amarr Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2008.09.19 10:57:00 - [4] so your hypothesis there is some bot programmed to watch the market and post buys/sells accordingly? It would have to be some sort of screen sc****r that can read the text on screen, no?
Catchura	Posted - 2008.09.19 11:25:00 - [5] Treelox has your answer. Your not the first to think this. But you are wrong squire.
Ialocin Caldari	Posted - 2008.09.19 12:19:00 - [6] Originally by: Treelox Edited by: Treelox on 19/09/2008 10:39:13 I hope you know that you can not "select" who you buy from. It always comes from the lowest priced seller. You do end up paying the higher price though. Wait a minute. Does that mean, that if there are 2 sell orders at a station, and i chose to buy from the most expensive one, i will ACTUALLY buy the cheap one's goods, but pay the expensive ones price? Example, If two people are selling Merlins at my station. 1. Sells for ISK 200.000 2. Sells for ISK 300.000 If I buy from 2, I end up paying ISK 300.000 but i buy from 1 ?
Confuzer Polaris Project Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2008.09.19 12:20:00 - [7] Edited by: Confuzer on 19/09/2008 12:20:35 Even a bot (that indeed would use some pattern recognition) would have the delay time. you buy much faster. So there still would be a moment you bought from the nest seller. But my guess also was that you bought from some with like 3.1 as price, while there was another seller with 3.1 or 3.0 on market. edit Yes Ialocin... ----------------- Destiny is not a matter of chance. It is a matter of choice. It's not a thing to be waited for - it is a thing to be achieved.*
Sharra Savente Domini Umbrus Free Trade Zone.	Posted - 2008.09.19 12:29:00 - [8] Originally by: Ialocin Originally by: Treelox Edited by: Treelox on 19/09/2008 10:39:13 I hope you know that you can not "select" who you buy from. It always comes from the lowest priced seller. You do end up paying the higher price though. Wait a minute. Does that mean, that if there are 2 sell orders at a station, and i chose to buy from the most expensive one, i will ACTUALLY buy the cheap one's goods, but pay the expensive ones price? Example, If two people are selling Merlins at my station. 1. Sells for ISK 200.000 2. Sells for ISK 300.000 If I buy from 2, I end up paying ISK 300.000 but i buy from 1 ? Yep, which is why the .01 isk game is so important. Otherwise people would have bigger increment drops. ____ English doesn't borrow from other languages; it follows other languages down dark alleys, coshes 'em, then rummages in their pockets for loose bits of grammar.
Taikun Gallente 20th Legion Southern Cross Alliance	Posted - 2008.09.19 12:47:00 - [9] Originally by: Treelox Edited by: Treelox on 19/09/2008 10:39:13 Originally by: Taikun I selected each seller and bought... I hope you know that you can not "select" who you buy from. It always comes from the lowest priced seller. You do end up paying the higher price though. Yes moron. I bought everything out by selecting from the lowest buy order in station first and walked the sell price up until I hit this "issue". Taikun P.S. Removed from your quote the troll comments. A criminal is a person with predatory instincts who has not sufficient capital to form a corporation.
Taikun Gallente 20th Legion Southern Cross Alliance	Posted - 2008.09.19 12:53:00 - [10] Originally by: Confuzer Edited by: Confuzer on 19/09/2008 12:20:35But my guess also was that you bought from some with like 3.1 as price, while there was another seller with 3.1 or 3.0 on market. You can "guess" all you want. Opinions are like A-Holes. Everyone got one and that all stink. I post facts. There was nobody "below" my purchase order price and I bought right thru the price break of the person who was "botting". Taikun A criminal is a person with predatory instincts who has not sufficient capital to form a corporation.
Confuzer Polaris Project Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2008.09.19 13:07:00 - [11] I just lost all appitite for this thread, odd, wonder what it could be. Aah well, good luck finding your answer. ----------------- Destiny is not a matter of chance. It is a matter of choice. It's not a thing to be waited for - it is a thing to be achieved.
Taikun Gallente 20th Legion Southern Cross Alliance	Posted - 2008.09.19 13:09:00 - [12] Originally by: Samuel Sandstorm Edited by: Samuel Sandstorm on 19/09/2008 10:31:38 And I'm sure the 113,353,612 units you bought were the lowest available offer at the station you did your purchasing? Yes it was. 100% certain because I bought everything prior to that amount. Like I said... I spent 4 billion buying Trit and didn't encounter this until 1.5 billion into my purchases. Refreshing the market for each and every purchase... my market window filtered to station... there is no doubt in my mind of what "occured". My purchases during this price break was over a 20 min period with a 10 min break during the period in question so there was no "market refresh" issue. Why was there a break in my buying pattern? Simple answer... I smelt a rat so I wanted to check my hypothosis. SOME perople in these forums are too gleeful of their own vitriol to accept the findings of others. Screw them. Too all the others, I provide this information because I enjoy exposing "issues" of unique importance within this game. Taikun A criminal is a person with predatory instincts who has not sufficient capital to form a corporation.
Taikun Gallente 20th Legion Southern Cross Alliance	Posted - 2008.09.19 13:11:00 - [13] Originally by: Confuzer I just lost all appitite for this thread, odd, wonder what it could be. Aah well, good luck finding your answer. Who the @#$% was asking a question?? I was TELLING you information. A simple thank you would suffice. Either that or don't bother to respond to my posts. Comprende Vous? Much love, Taikun A criminal is a person with predatory instincts who has not sufficient capital to form a corporation.
Confuzer Polaris Project Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2008.09.19 13:13:00 - [14] Edited by: Confuzer on 19/09/2008 13:16:06 Okay can't hold myself. IF you post theories, make sure to communicate your tests of how you concluded this. if you miss a test result in your OP, and someone asks for it, just give it instead of being so... yourself... Imagine me making a thread saying: "CCP are all bots, I proved it so FYI!" without any other info. Come on, be realistic. edit: and to state an opinion: you are wrong, you made a mistake, it doesn't make sense to me. ----------------- Destiny is not a matter of chance. It is a matter of choice. It's not a thing to be waited for - it is a thing to be achieved.*
Taikun Gallente 20th Legion Southern Cross Alliance	Posted - 2008.09.19 13:16:00 - [15] Originally by: Confuzer I just lost all appitite for this thread Liar Taikun A criminal is a person with predatory instincts who has not sufficient capital to form a corporation.
Rho'varo Minmatar Diversified Operational Services	Posted - 2008.09.19 13:55:00 - [16] Originally by: Taikun I bought everything out by selecting from the lowest buy order in station first and walked the buy price up thru many "sellers" until I hit this "issue" with the bot. When selling to a bid "above" another that looks like it has the same price (when the orders are sorted in descending order of price), it is possible that you are selling to the second-listed bid: I tested this myself with my own orders. I realise that you are talking about asks, but it is possible that the same occurs (buying from "second" of two similarly priced-orders), though I don't know if it would even be a possibility in your situation (i.e., was there a second similarly priced order?). Just out of further curiosity, did you export the market orders to see any extra decimal places that there might be? Did you contact the seller to ask them about this? Who was the seller? Did you petition the matter?
Confuzer Polaris Project Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2008.09.19 14:02:00 - [17] Well, I buy ALOT in Jita and monitor WHO I am buying it from. There are a few chars with alot of transactions: Aslord, Shrouded Figure, Val'ka and ThaVin Lianocen, but they stick to a few items so I think these are just 0.1 veterans. I never got a clue that I was buying from a bot. If you see repetitive market actions like this with the odd number of 113,353,612 from ONE char, then report him to CCP and ask what they know about it. ----------------- Destiny is not a matter of chance. It is a matter of choice. It's not a thing to be waited for - it is a thing to be achieved.
Ricdic Caldari	Posted - 2008.09.19 14:07:00 - [18] I would definitely be petitioning this if you are 100% certain this happened. The solution that Treelox explained sounds far more likely however I know you are pretty knowledgeable when it comes to this kind of thing so wouldn't expect you to make a mistake like this 5 times. Petition is the best way to get your answer as it is quite strange (however I did lol at your thread subject)
Midas Man Caldari Dzark Asylum	Posted - 2008.09.19 14:09:00 - [19] I have noticed something similar once when trying to manipulate a market. There was a single unit available that reappeared everytime I bought from it, I bought it 10 time got all 10 items and paid the isk for each Item but it was still their. I could never work out if it was a bot. My own take was someone had placed numerous sell orders at the same value and the client "Stacked" them. I never got round to testing the theory though. I will give it a go this evening after work. I once prayed to God for a bike, but quickly found out he didnt work that way...so I stole a bike and prayed for his forgiveness.
Taikun Gallente 20th Legion Southern Cross Alliance	Posted - 2008.09.19 14:12:00 - [20] Originally by: Rho'varo When selling to a bid "above" another that looks like it has the same price (when the orders are sorted in descending order of price), it is possible that you are selling to the second-listed bid: I tested this myself with my own orders. I realise that you are talking about asks, but it is possible that the same occurs (buying from "second" of two similarly priced-orders), though I don't know if it would even be a possibility in your situation (i.e., was there a second similarly priced order?). Nope. Even price breaks of 0.01 isk. Originally by: Rho'varo Just out of further curiosity, did you export the market orders to see any extra decimal places that there might be? Did you contact the seller to ask them about this? Who was the seller? Did you petition the matter? a) Yes and it only confirms my suspicion and intuition. b) No, did not contact the seller. What wouold be the point? I already know the answer to: "Are you running a market bot" c) No, because CCP would ram a large splitered broomstick up my forum account hole if I started posting account names in here. d) If I had ANY faith in CCP petitions whatsoever I wouldn't bother posting about it in here. I am sick of petitioning CCP. Now I prefer to link to my posts and gain kudos amongst friends for hightighting issues years before CCP us aware of them, and decades before they do anything about it. Cheers, Taikun A criminal is a person with predatory instincts who has not sufficient capital to form a corporation.
Feronia Gallente Magma Industries	Posted - 2008.09.19 14:12:00 - [21] The same thing has happened to me before. I suspect the market is buggy in a way that sometimes when multiple sell orders are listed at the same price, not all of them are visible. So you think you're buying from the visible order but instead you're taking chunks of the invisible sell order(s). If you keep buying in the end the visible order will disappear. I tried a few times to reproduce this bug but never succeeded. Anyway, I don't believe its some kind of market hacking bot.
Juliette Leblanc Gallente Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2008.09.19 14:29:00 - [22] Assuming it is a market bot, there are chances that it will still take a little time for it to repost. Especially if you buy two consecutive full batches. The only way it can do it instantly every time is if the bot is not parsing info from the screen and posting KB/Mouse input to the game client but has actually reverse engineered the protocol and is in fact not using an official client at all. You probably already did several tests. But here is what I would do (if I had the money and wanted to find out more): - make sure the market filter is set to region (no filter) so that I minimize the chance that there's a market filtering bug somewhere. - make sure the 'bot' sell order is the cheapest (of course) - export the market data, partially buy the order, export the new market data, buyout the rest of the order, refresh, buyout again the full order, refresh and export. Then go and check: - that the seller is always the same and the partial buy order did effectively modify the available stock - the time it takes it to repost both after the first buyout and after the second
Augeas	Posted - 2008.09.19 14:30:00 - [23] Originally by: Midas Man I have noticed something similar once when trying to manipulate a market. There was a single unit available that reappeared everytime I bought from it, I bought it 10 time got all 10 items and paid the isk for each Item but it was still their. I could never work out if it was a bot. My own take was someone had placed numerous sell orders at the same value and the client "Stacked" them. I never got round to testing the theory though. I will give it a go this evening after work. Yeah, I've noticed rare market oddities just like this. I know all about the fun only-buy-from-lowest-seller-in-station feature, BTW, and no market filters were involved. And I'm pretty sure it's a bug, not a bot - the bot-like behaviour can be dealt with easily. Specifically - I was trying to buy up some undervalued stock and was working through a list of sell orders. After buying out several orders, I noticed that the last order had not disappeared. I figured it was a screen bug and tried to buy it out again. Again, the items appeared in my hangar, and my wallet decreased - but the order did not change - not even its duration changed, so it wasn't a new order just placed. Even relogging did not fix it. A few hours later, the problem order had disappeared.
Isk Ho	Posted - 2008.09.19 14:30:00 - [24] Could it be connected with this kind of thing? My other thought on it is that it could be connected with the market bugginess we're seeing at the moment (broker could not find the order etc) - could there be some kind of issue going on where for some reason the actual order you're buying from is somehow invisible/hidden? Using the Jita market is a PITA right now with the new spawn of bugs since the last patch.
Ceola Tyn'Vile	Posted - 2008.09.19 14:33:00 - [25] So you have the transaction logs and export files to support your theories. Is there any reason you cannot post them or let someone look them over to confirm suspicion?
Rho'varo Minmatar Diversified Operational Services	Posted - 2008.09.19 14:33:00 - [26] Originally by: Taikun b) No, did not contact the seller. What would be the point? I already know the answer to: "Are you running a market bot" I would definitely take a different approach: "Where'd you get all that Trit?", "Do you have more that you want to sell off market to avoid fees?" and then get into a discussion... Originally by: Taikun c) No, because CCP would ram a large splitered broomstick up my forum account hole if I started posting account names in here. I meant only pilot/character/corporation names that anyone could see for themselves simply by replicating your transactions or viewing your transactions through the API (if you chose to make that available... and I'm not suggesting you do, just pointing out that you could).
Block Ukx Block Ships and Ammunitions	Posted - 2008.09.19 14:36:00 - [27] I see this all the time when orders are priced identically. Typically when you sort by price it sorts quantity from lowest to highest. Therefore when you buy from the smaller order because it is sorted first, you are really buying from the largest order. BSAC Mineral Market Manipulation (MinMa) Information Desk
Taikun Gallente 20th Legion Southern Cross Alliance	Posted - 2008.09.19 14:38:00 - [28] Originally by: Ricdic The solution that Treelox explained sounds far more likely however I know you are pretty knowledgeable when it comes to this kind of thing so wouldn't expect you to make a mistake like this 5 times. I would agree that it sounds more likely, which is why I dumped more isk in to checking the situation out myself. I was curious. As you say, I have lived off of buying and selling on the market enough to be acutely aware on how it operates and it's unusual quirks. What I found was that I wasn't making a "missed" undercutter mistake. (Which I must admit I thought I did after the first buy) This was something quite different. After reviewing my buys, and to whom I bought from, I have concluded that it was either a market bot/hacker etc, or serious glitch in the market itself that fails to report all sell offers. (Even after extended periods between purchases) Either way I am not worried about it as knowing about it now gives me a certain advantage. I just want to go on record as reporting my experiences to the market. (To point to when there is a patch to address it) Taikun A criminal is a person with predatory instincts who has not sufficient capital to form a corporation.
Taikun Gallente 20th Legion Southern Cross Alliance	Posted - 2008.09.19 14:43:00 - [29] Originally by: Feronia The same thing has happened to me before. I suspect the market is buggy in a way that sometimes when multiple sell orders are listed at the same price, not all of them are visible. So you think you're buying from the visible order but instead you're taking chunks of the invisible sell order(s). If you keep buying in the end the visible order will disappear. I tried a few times to reproduce this bug but never succeeded. Anyway, I don't believe its some kind of market hacking bot. NOW this sniff like something I experienced. A market bug with invisable sell orders would explain why the viable order remains up for sale aftyer I "purchase" it. However, I used the "place buy order" and the avaialble amount came up as what was visably available. So the "invisable" sell order is invisable not only for market search, but to the "place buy order" button as well. If this is the case... this is a fundamental breakage of the market. What is more worrisome is if people can place "invisable" sell orders up on purpose via some exploit. Who knows. Taikun A criminal is a person with predatory instincts who has not sufficient capital to form a corporation.
Block Ukx Block Ships and Ammunitions	Posted - 2008.09.19 14:52:00 - [30] There is no bug. Market sells largest order first; probably to avoid people undercutting with a smaller quantity. BSAC Mineral Market Manipulation (MinMa) Information Desk
Taikun Gallente 20th Legion Southern Cross Alliance	Posted - 2008.09.19 15:00:00 - [31] Originally by: Block Ukx There is no bug. Market sells largest order first; probably to avoid people undercutting with a smaller quantity. Wow. So much fail. I'll let others deliver upon thee with furious vengance. Taikun A criminal is a person with predatory instincts who has not sufficient capital to form a corporation.
oogs Gallente Ex Coelis The Bantam Menace	Posted - 2008.09.19 15:02:00 - [32] Originally by: Taikun Edited by: Taikun on 19/09/2008 09:58:35 Now I am sure some... but not all are aware of this. (I have suspected for a long time but never bothered to confirm) However I now can confirm that market bot hackers exist in Jita. I have bought 4 billion worth of trit and noticed a funny thing while buying. I selected each seller and bought... and noticed that when I bought 113,353,612 units off of one char and bought... but immediatly they had the same amount up for sale again. So I bought that as well. Sure enough.... my money went through and got the trit... Only to find another load up for sale. Same volume, same price. I have done this five times. Just a FYI for those that use market "volumes" as an indicator of supply for their calculations... trust them as much as you trust CCP. Taikun Are you sure it's not lag? I managed to accidentally buy-out the same person twice in a row before I realized it takes a few minutes for the market to update. I ended up with near 100 drones instead of the 50 I wanted.
Midas Man Caldari Dzark Asylum	Posted - 2008.09.19 15:03:00 - [33] Originally by: Taikun EDIT: I just slapped up 4 10m unit order of Trit in Jita and they are all listed seperately. So either this is a bot, bug or an exploit IMO. Taikun Did you view the market with the same character? If possible could you check with a separate account/character to see if they can see all 4 orders aswell? I once prayed to God for a bike, but quickly found out he didnt work that way...so I stole a bike and prayed for his forgiveness.
Taikun Gallente 20th Legion Southern Cross Alliance	Posted - 2008.09.19 15:05:00 - [34] Originally by: oogs Are you sure it's not lag? Yes... otherwise I would have placed a buy order up instead of recieving the Trit as for 3 purchases I used the "place buy order" button. Not lag. Something more fundamental. Taikun A criminal is a person with predatory instincts who has not sufficient capital to form a corporation.
Feronia Gallente Magma Industries	Posted - 2008.09.19 15:06:00 - [35] Originally by: Block Ukx There is no bug. Market sells largest order first; probably to avoid people undercutting with a smaller quantity. It is a bug when you can't see the other orders. Only one of them was visible. Mind you, its not a very common bug. I've only experienced this 3 times (all in Jita) in over 5 years gameplay and I don't think people can reproduce this willingly.
Midas Man Caldari Dzark Asylum	Posted - 2008.09.19 15:06:00 - [36] Originally by: oogs Are you sure it's not lag? I managed to accidentally buy-out the same person twice in a row before I realized it takes a few minutes for the market to update. I ended up with near 100 drones instead of the 50 I wanted. If it was Lag then its an even bigger problem which would allow for item duplication. ie place an order and buy it many times in laggy periods if buying it from yourself you would be generating items for free. I once prayed to God for a bike, but quickly found out he didnt work that way...so I stole a bike and prayed for his forgiveness.
Taikun Gallente 20th Legion Southern Cross Alliance	Posted - 2008.09.19 15:06:00 - [37] Originally by: Midas Man Did you view the market with the same character? If possible could you check with a separate account/character to see if they can see all 4 orders aswell? Good call. I used same char, but did log out and back in for the sake of doing it. My closest other toon is 30 mins from Jita. I might do it tomorrow, but worth checking out. Taikun A criminal is a person with predatory instincts who has not sufficient capital to form a corporation.
Midas Man Caldari Dzark Asylum	Posted - 2008.09.19 15:08:00 - [38] Originally by: Taikun I used same char, but did log out and back in for the sake of doing it. My closest other toon is 30 mins from Jita. I might do it tomorrow, but worth checking out. Taikun I will check later when im back from work and post my results. I once prayed to God for a bike, but quickly found out he didnt work that way...so I stole a bike and prayed for his forgiveness.
Block Ukx Block Ships and Ammunitions	Posted - 2008.09.19 15:12:00 - [39] Originally by: Taikun Originally by: Block Ukx There is no bug. Market sells largest order first; probably to avoid people undercutting with a smaller quantity. Wow. So much fail. I'll let others deliver upon thee with furious vengance. Taikun I'm sure a dev can confirm my claim. BSAC Mineral Market Manipulation (MinMa) Information Desk
Block Ukx Block Ships and Ammunitions	Posted - 2008.09.19 15:14:00 - [40] Originally by: Feronia Originally by: Block Ukx There is no bug. Market sells largest order first; probably to avoid people undercutting with a smaller quantity. It is a bug when you can't see the other orders. Only one of them was visible. Mind you, its not a very common bug. I've only experienced this 3 times (all in Jita) in over 5 years gameplay and I don't think people can reproduce this willingly. I can reproduce this "bug" by chaging the quantity sorting settings. BSAC Mineral Market Manipulation (MinMa) Information Desk
Taikun Gallente 20th Legion Southern Cross Alliance	Posted - 2008.09.19 15:18:00 - [41] Originally by: Block Ukx I'm sure a dev can confirm my claim. Until you do I hope you stop posting such nonsense. Taikun A criminal is a person with predatory instincts who has not sufficient capital to form a corporation.
Taikun Gallente 20th Legion Southern Cross Alliance	Posted - 2008.09.19 15:20:00 - [42] Edited by: Taikun on 19/09/2008 15:24:15 Originally by: Block Ukx I can reproduce this "bug" by chaging the quantity sorting settings. ♫ ♪ Good for you ♫ ♪ .But in my case (and I suspect Feronia's as well) I did no such thing. Therefore your input has done little to advance the discussion. Taikun A criminal is a person with predatory instincts who has not sufficient capital to form a corporation.
Augeas	Posted - 2008.09.19 15:21:00 - [43] Originally by: Block Ukx Originally by: Feronia Originally by: Block Ukx There is no bug. Market sells largest order first; probably to avoid people undercutting with a smaller quantity. It is a bug when you can't see the other orders. Only one of them was visible. Mind you, its not a very common bug. I've only experienced this 3 times (all in Jita) in over 5 years gameplay and I don't think people can reproduce this willingly. I can reproduce this "bug" by chaging the quantity sorting settings. Block, I don't think that you understand the issue being discussed.
Feronia Gallente Magma Industries	Posted - 2008.09.19 15:30:00 - [44] Originally by: Block Ukx I can reproduce this "bug" by chaging the quantity sorting settings. Not really, it would only move the other orders further down the list, not make them invisible. And in case you have any doubts, I did scroll down and checked the complete list. But its not something to worry about as it doesn't happen that frequently and its not reproducable.
Grendell Technologies Unlimited	Posted - 2008.09.19 15:30:00 - [45] Taikun, I understand what you are trying to show us, but it would probably be better to be a bit more diplomatic in your responses. It will allow further composed discussion instead of the thread turning into a flame fest. They are by no means attacks on you, just further questions, and verifications of a possible error on your end. Consider this a freindly bump. Nice test btw.
Block Ukx Block Ships and Ammunitions	Posted - 2008.09.19 15:35:00 - [46] Originally by: Taikun Edited by: Taikun on 19/09/2008 09:58:35 Now I am sure some... but not all are aware of this. (I have suspected for a long time but never bothered to confirm) However I now can confirm that market bot hackers exist in Jita. I have bought 4 billion worth of trit and noticed a funny thing while buying. I selected each seller and bought... and noticed that when I bought 113,353,612 units off of one char and bought... but immediatly they had the same amount up for sale again. So I bought that as well. Sure enough.... my money went through and got the trit... Only to find another load up for sale. Same volume, same price. I have done this five times. Just a FYI for those that use market "volumes" as an indicator of supply for their calculations... trust them as much as you trust CCP. Taikun Just one last comment and will leave it at that. Anyone reading this thread can do the test themselves. Suppose there are more than one order in the market priced the lowest. For instance, One selling 20,000 units tritanium at 2.90 One selling 100,000 units tritanium at 2.90 Typically the one with the lowest amount will sort first (the 20,000 units). If I right click the 20,000 to purchase it (because it is listed first) you will notice that next time you look in the market you will see One selling 20,000 units tritanium at 2.90 One selling 80,000 units tritanium at 2.90 You can repeat the same process five more times until both orders go away, or you can right click the largest order (100,000) from the beginning and purchase the 20,000 order second. BSAC Mineral Market Manipulation (MinMa) Information Desk
Taikun Gallente 20th Legion Southern Cross Alliance	Posted - 2008.09.19 15:40:00 - [47] Originally by: Grendell Taikun, I understand what you are trying to show us, but it would probably be better to be a bit more diplomatic in your responses. I think many would be disapointed if I turned all soft and cuddly in here. I respond well to those who post well. If not... Your advice is by no means unique to my experiences in here. Nevertheless I am a curious soul and apprieciate all those who are sniffing at the same issue with the same curiousity. Taikun A criminal is a person with predatory instincts who has not sufficient capital to form a corporation.
Taikun Gallente 20th Legion Southern Cross Alliance	Posted - 2008.09.19 15:53:00 - [48] Edited by: Taikun on 19/09/2008 15:54:03 Originally by: Block Ukx Just one last comment and will leave it at that. Anyone reading this thread can do the test themselves. Suppose there are more than one order in the market priced the lowest. For instance, One selling 20,000 units tritanium at 2.90 One selling 100,000 units tritanium at 2.90 Typically the one with the lowest amount will sort first (the 20,000 units). If I right click the 20,000 to purchase it (because it is listed first) you will notice that next time you look in the market you will see One selling 20,000 units tritanium at 2.90 One selling 80,000 units tritanium at 2.90 You can repeat the same process five more times until both orders go away, or you can right click the largest order (100,000) from the beginning and purchase the 20,000 order second. Geeze man. First... the buy orders I was dealing with were NOT the same value. There were split by a solid visable 0.01 isk. Second... this is NOT how the market works. Prices are not limited to hundredths of an isk. If you place an sell order up for the same amount as an existing order it actually places it up as 0.001 isk more that the highest established amount at that price. The market will then clear the lowest priced order first. i.e The first price listed at the hundredth of an isk will sell first. All the while the visable numbers are the exact same value. It might LOOK like quantity is the deciding factor for a particular set of sales, but I assure you (as would others, and devs) is it not the case. Now from memory when selling crap and using thousands in the sell price it never registered... it is "automaticly" assigned by the market sell system. I am sure someone can confirm that as well. Taikun A criminal is a person with predatory instincts who has not sufficient capital to form a corporation.
Midas Man Caldari Dzark Asylum	Posted - 2008.09.19 15:58:00 - [49] Originally by: Block Ukx Just one last comment and will leave it at that. Anyone reading this thread can do the test themselves. Suppose there are more than one order in the market priced the lowest. For instance, One selling 20,000 units tritanium at 2.90 One selling 100,000 units tritanium at 2.90 Typically the one with the lowest amount will sort first (the 20,000 units). If I right click the 20,000 to purchase it (because it is listed first) you will notice that next time you look in the market you will see One selling 20,000 units tritanium at 2.90 One selling 80,000 units tritanium at 2.90 You can repeat the same process five more times until both orders go away, or you can right click the largest order (100,000) from the beginning and purchase the 20,000 order second. Right click any heading on the market tab, you can set a Secondry filter. No bug, no problem, working as intended. If you don't like it filtered by volume after price, simply set it to something else. I once prayed to God for a bike, but quickly found out he didnt work that way...so I stole a bike and prayed for his forgiveness.
Yakia TovilToba Halliburton Inc.	Posted - 2008.09.19 16:00:00 - [50] Haha, Jita has bots on market ? Nothing new, i bet a raven that the 0.01 isk undercutter-bots exist for more than 2 years, interesting to hear that they now even have botters to bluff about the actual volume of a sale. Did you petition it ? If not, give us at least the name of the guy that shows up as seller in the transaction window. _________ My e-peen
Ricdic Caldari	Posted - 2008.09.19 16:01:00 - [51] I have seen what you reported happen but only ever on NPC sold items. Anyway, it's a mystery
Ray McCormack hirr	Posted - 2008.09.19 16:57:00 - [52] IT WAS THE STAPLER! [WTS] Tech II Component BPO Sets
Ricdic Caldari	Posted - 2008.09.19 17:47:00 - [53] lol I was waiting for someone to say that Ray The memories!
Snasty	Posted - 2008.09.19 17:50:00 - [54] Originally by: Ricdic I have seen what you reported happen but only ever on NPC sold items. Anyway, it's a mystery Ditto
Treelox Amarr Market Jihadist Revolutionary Party	Posted - 2008.09.19 17:58:00 - [55] Originally by: Ricdic lol I was waiting for someone to say that Ray The memories! giving ray credit...... learn 2 read newb :P --
Midas Man Caldari Dzark Asylum	Posted - 2008.09.19 20:12:00 - [56] Originally by: Midas Man I have noticed something similar once when trying to manipulate a market. There was a single unit available that reappeared everytime I bought from it, I bought it 10 time got all 10 items and paid the isk for each Item but it was still their. I could never work out if it was a bot. My own take was someone had placed numerous sell orders at the same value and the client "Stacked" them. I never got round to testing the theory though. I will give it a go this evening after work. I've now set up numerous orders at the same value and they all show when looked at by a separate account so looks as if they may not be the case. i have no lag at the moment so unsure if that would play a roll may try on sunday in Jita lol I once prayed to God for a bike, but quickly found out he didnt work that way...so I stole a bike and prayed for his forgiveness.
Confuzer Polaris Project Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2008.09.19 22:13:00 - [57] Stapler????? "A stapler is a mechanical device that joins together sheets of paper or other similar materials by driving a thin metal staple through the sheets and folding over the ends to secure the paper. Staplers are widely used in government and business offices and schools." okay, we call that a "Niettang". But, what does it have to do with this? ----------------- Destiny is not a matter of chance. It is a matter of choice. It's not a thing to be waited for - it is a thing to be achieved.
Rho'varo Minmatar Diversified Operational Services	Posted - 2008.09.19 23:11:00 - [58] Originally by: Block Ukx Anyone reading this thread can do the test themselves. Suppose there are more than one order in the market priced the lowest. For instance, One selling 20,000 units Tritanium at 2.90 One selling 100,000 units Tritanium at 2.90 Typically the one with the lowest amount will sort first (the 20,000 units). If I right click the 20,000 to purchase it (because it is listed first) you will notice that next time you look in the market you will see One selling 20,000 units Tritanium at 2.90 One selling 80,000 units Tritanium at 2.90 Replication attempted. As I found previously with bids, the earliest-placed ask of multiple asks at apparently similar prices (i.e., prices that match to two decimal places) was matched first, regardless of which order had a larger volume, and regardless of which order I clicked on to call up the transaction-entry dialog box. The displayed sort order of bids or asks is not relevant to order matching. I hypothesise that in your example, Block Ukx, the ask with 100 k units was entered before the one with 20 k units. I encourage you to try to replicate your results, placing the smaller quantity on the market first.
Ricdics Tleilex Developments	Posted - 2008.09.20 02:32:00 - [59] Originally by: Confuzer Stapler????? "A stapler is a mechanical device that joins together sheets of paper or other similar materials by driving a thin metal staple through the sheets and folding over the ends to secure the paper. Staplers are widely used in government and business offices and schools." okay, we call that a "Niettang". But, what does it have to do with this? I'm glad you asked. Once upon a time Taikun came to these forums annoyed that there was no confirmation window on order modifications. I believe the main annoyance was that somehow two typo's had occured simultaneously causing him to lose isk. Somehow or other it was determined that a stapler dancing on the keyboard had caused the error. A search at www.eve-search.com for a combination of "Taikun" and "stapler" should bring up the thread which was good for a laugh. I don't believe a stapler was actually involved in the process directly but it somehow made it's way into the conversation. Sorry Treelox I didn't notice your mention of stapler earlier plus I generally don't read your posts
Ricdics Tleilex Developments	Posted - 2008.09.20 02:34:00 - [60] Here you go I had to pull it up as I want some reading material whilst at work.
Treelox Amarr Market Jihadist Revolutionary Party	Posted - 2008.09.20 03:03:00 - [61] Originally by: Ricdics Sorry Treelox I didn't notice your mention of stapler earlier plus I generally don't read your posts You miss out on great wisdom, by ignoring them. Wisdom of the Ages, that is not sugar coated, pink ponies, of flowery dribble. --
Professor Leech Transmetropolitan	Posted - 2008.09.20 03:12:00 - [62] I can't believe this thread made it to three pages. I must be getting tired of the same speculation about market "hackers". Originally by: Crawe DeRaven this thread is obviously going places
Frenden Dax	Posted - 2008.09.20 03:15:00 - [63] If someone actually hacked the Jita market then that would be awe-inspiring. The total chaos of all orders being set to 1 isk would be...
Taikun Gallente 20th Legion Southern Cross Alliance	Posted - 2008.09.20 04:00:00 - [64] Edited by: Taikun on 20/09/2008 04:00:21 Originally by: Professor Leech I can't believe this thread made it to three pages. I must be getting tired of the same speculation about market "hackers". Who gives a flying @%$% what you think. Contribute to the discussion or crawl in a hole and die for all I care. I have PROVEN to myself and those who would listen, that there is a mechanisim in place where total volume of sales is NOT being reported for large purchases. I have asserted that it is a exploit/hack issue. Some suggest that it is a "bug". Thats their opinion. You just came here to whine about the topics others wish to discuss. Blow away pipsqueek. You are annoying. Taikun A criminal is a person with predatory instincts who has not sufficient capital to form a corporation.
Taikun Gallente 20th Legion Southern Cross Alliance	Posted - 2008.09.20 04:04:00 - [65] Originally by: Ricdics Edited by: Ricdics on 20/09/2008 02:48:50 Here you go I had to pull it up as I want some reading material whilst at work. edit: I can't find the direct thread related Thanks Ric... It is indeed a great read. My fav lines are Originally by: Taikun CCP needs to fire the person who has allowed this joke of coding to continue. They need to find the coder in charge of that aspect of the game and fire them ASAP. They need to post a picture of them and their family that will have a crappy christmas because mommy/daddy sucked so much at their jobs they got bounced for being useless and lazy. I believe in this as stongly today as I did then. NO excuses for lazy, crappy buggy coding. Taikun A criminal is a person with predatory instincts who has not sufficient capital to form a corporation.
Professor Leech Transmetropolitan	Posted - 2008.09.20 05:26:00 - [66] Originally by: Taikun Edited by: Taikun on 20/09/2008 04:00:21 Originally by: Professor Leech I can't believe this thread made it to three pages. I must be getting tired of the same speculation about market "hackers". Who gives a flying @%$% what you think. Contribute to the discussion or crawl in a hole and die for all I care. I have PROVEN to myself and those who would listen, that there is a mechanisim in place where total volume of sales is NOT being reported for large purchases. I have asserted that it is a exploit/hack issue. Some suggest that it is a "bug". Thats their opinion. You just came here to whine about the topics others wish to discuss. Blow away pipsqueek. You are annoying. Taikun Look how dumb you are. This thread is a waste of space because it's just a re-hash of all the other similar threads about market bots and people not understanding how the market works. That and some of the market problems, which are bugs, that have cropped up. Your whining and trolling is tiresome along with your worn out posting style. Originally by: Crawe DeRaven this thread is obviously going places
Shar Tegral	Posted - 2008.09.20 05:41:00 - [67] Originally by: Professor Leech Your whining and trolling is tiresome along with your worn out posting style. As one who has had a lot of difficulties in the past with Taikun I've found this to work: If you read something of his that you find worth responding to, respond to it. Don't troll him as he quickly goes ballistic and don't fight back with him as anything he considers trolling doesn't register. It may antagonize him but doesn't register. As to rehashing old stuff: Don't we all? To Shar -verb: 1 - To say what you mean. 2 - To say what it means. 3 - To say something mean.
Professor Leech Transmetropolitan	Posted - 2008.09.20 05:48:00 - [68] Originally by: Shar Tegral Originally by: Professor Leech Your whining and trolling is tiresome along with your worn out posting style. As one who has had a lot of difficulties in the past with Taikun I've found this to work: If you read something of his that you find worth responding to, respond to it. Don't troll him as he quickly goes ballistic and don't fight back with him as anything he considers trolling doesn't register. It may antagonize him but doesn't register. As to rehashing old stuff: Don't we all? Duly noted Shar. Eve-o forums aren't safe for people that go ballistic after one comment. You need thick skin around here. Originally by: Crawe DeRaven this thread is obviously going places
Taikun Gallente 20th Legion Southern Cross Alliance	Posted - 2008.09.20 06:04:00 - [69] Originally by: Professor Leech You need thick skin around here. You need to keep your mouth shut about what others want to discuss in here. Don't like the topic? That is just peachy fine. But word to the wise... keep your lips buttoned and they won't get smacked. Flap them around and expect a response. Simple huh? Taikun A criminal is a person with predatory instincts who has not sufficient capital to form a corporation.
Ricdics Tleilex Developments	Posted - 2008.09.20 06:15:00 - [70] Taikun you bring so much quality drama to the forums. I may not agree with lots of what you say but it is fantastic entertainment
Danari Syncore	Posted - 2008.09.20 10:09:00 - [71] lol this thread is like watching timmy vs jimmy.
frank frankenson	Posted - 2008.09.20 21:00:00 - [72] maybe taikun is ajita market hacker and is trying to throw us all off by flaming about jita market hackers.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2008.09.21 06:28:00 - [73] Originally by: Taikun Edited by: Taikun on 19/09/2008 13:51:28 Originally by: Treelox Edited by: Treelox on 19/09/2008 10:39:13 Originally by: Taikun I selected each seller and bought... I hope you know that you can not "select" who you buy from. It always comes from the lowest priced seller. You do end up paying the higher price though. Yes moron. I bought everything out by selecting from the lowest buy order in station first (by using the "place buy order" button) and walked the buy price up thru many "sellers" until I hit this "issue" with the bot. (The lowest available matched the lowest value in station Jita IV-IV) Taikun P.S. Removed from your quote the troll comments. It was the sell order with the lowest time amount remaining too? Check from who you brought the stuff and see if the seller is the same. Last thing, if youa re still sure it is a bot, petition.
Rho'varo Minmatar Diversified Operational Services	Posted - 2008.09.21 07:09:00 - [74] Originally by: Venkul Mul It was the sell order with the lowest time amount remaining too? What's significant is not how much time is remaining on the order per se but which order was placed first. I.e., of two orders at the same price, a 90-day order placed a few minutes before a 30-day order gets matched first, even though the 30-day order has less time remaining.
Professor Leech Transmetropolitan	Posted - 2008.09.21 23:37:00 - [75] Originally by: Taikun Edited by: Taikun on 20/09/2008 06:05:26 Originally by: Professor Leech You need thick skin around here. You need to keep your mouth shut about what others want to discuss in here. Don't like the topic? That is just peachy fine but dont post your off-topic yabber about it. Word to the wise... keep your lips buttoned and they won't get smacked. Flap them around and expect a response. Simple huh? Taikun Proof or stfu. I agree with others in this thread; you are the Jita market hacker. You should stop hacking CCP's systems as it is illegal. Originally by: Crawe DeRaven this thread is obviously going places
Shar Tegral	Posted - 2008.09.22 00:34:00 - [76] Edited by: Shar Tegral on 22/09/2008 00:33:55 Originally by: Venkul Mul It was the sell order with the lowest time amount remaining too? Originally by: Rho'varo What's significant is not how much time is remaining on the order per se but which order was placed first. I.e., of two orders at the same price, a 90-day order placed a few minutes before a 30-day order gets matched first, even though the 30-day order has less time remaining. I constantly find myself laughing at this misconception. I see it all the time when people try to use smaller durations to beat out orders. LOL. To Shar -verb: 1 - To say what you mean. 2 - To say what it means. 3 - To say something mean.
Joss Sparq Caldari ANZAC ALLIANCE Southern Cross Alliance	Posted - 2008.09.22 01:06:00 - [77] I don't have any comment on the specific incident reported by Taikun, but I would be unsurprised to discover there are some kind of bot based shenanigan's going on in the Jita market.
Professor Leech Transmetropolitan	Posted - 2008.09.22 01:19:00 - [78] Edited by: Professor Leech on 22/09/2008 01:21:22 Edited by: Professor Leech on 22/09/2008 01:20:59 Originally by: Joss Sparq I don't have any comment on the specific incident reported by Taikun, but I would be unsurprised to discover there are some kind of bot based shenanigan's going on in the Jita market. I don't doubt it. I'm sure there are a significant number of bots operating on the markets. They've been there since escrow days. Originally by: Crawe DeRaven this thread is obviously going places
Lo Lightshard Insurrection Inc Tygris Alliance	Posted - 2008.09.22 02:10:00 - [79] What does the bot gain from this kind of transaction? If it was undercutting or listing smaller volumes perhaps I can see some benefit but if it is just blindly relisting large quantities at a fixed price ... OP, doesn't Block Ukx have a reasonable explanation of this behaviour unless you refute some of his assumptions? [IMA6E REMOVED]
Joss Sparq Caldari ANZAC ALLIANCE Southern Cross Alliance	Posted - 2008.09.22 02:42:00 - [80] Originally by: Lo Lightshard What does the bot gain from this kind of transaction? At a guess, I would say that it gives the bot user an advantage over other users when it involves any commodity with large volumes and a stable price. For example, a bulk mineral seller could establish the bot to refill their sell order every time they are emptied while the bot user is asleep/can't otherwise manage their trading mechanisms. This means they're involved in the market up to 24 hours a day as opposed to regular users who need to take breaks/suffer periods where they can't access their account to manage their orders which may fill/empty during those periods they lack access. What would be really frightening to me is a bot that can (basically) buy low and sell high consistently over 24 hours, with bot reaction speeds. Though, I'm just postulating a theory here.
Rho'varo Minmatar Diversified Operational Services	Posted - 2008.09.22 03:00:00 - [81] Originally by: Lo Lightshard Doesn't Block Ukx have a reasonable explanation of this behaviour unless you refute some of his assumptions? Block Ukx's claims (1, 2, 3) were indeed refuted on the second page of this very thread.
Professor Leech Transmetropolitan	Posted - 2008.09.22 03:06:00 - [82] Originally by: Joss Sparq What would be really frightening to me is a bot that can (basically) buy low and sell high consistently over 24 hours, with bot reaction speeds. Though, I'm just postulating a theory here. When I was investigating macros and looking at methods to counter them I was rather disturbed by what I found. I won't give specific details as I do not want to encourage any more macro users (as if ruining the ice market wasn't enough for macro users) but the bots can have a high level of sophistication. The bot will adapt as the programmer/operator adapts. To answer the previous question as to the benefit; turnover. The higher the volume of sales at any profit margin means more profit. Originally by: Crawe DeRaven this thread is obviously going places
Joss Sparq Caldari ANZAC ALLIANCE Southern Cross Alliance	Posted - 2008.09.22 06:06:00 - [83] Originally by: Professor Leech Originally by: Joss Sparq What would be really frightening to me is a bot that can (basically) buy low and sell high consistently over 24 hours, with bot reaction speeds. Though, I'm just postulating a theory here. When I was investigating macros and looking at methods to counter them I was rather disturbed by what I found. I won't give specific details as I do not want to encourage any more macro users (as if ruining the ice market wasn't enough for macro users) but the bots can have a high level of sophistication. The bot will adapt as the programmer/operator adapts. I fondly remember back when the asteroid (and then ice) macro miners were relatively unsophisticated. Though I didn't (and still don't) approve of them, they did make for a nice bit of supplementary income at the time (and at their expense) plus a welcome - if all too infrequent - chance for PvP combat. These days I've mostly given up on it though, both from moving on to other pursuits and having interacted with them to the point that they advanced to a level I rarely found worth my time to interfere with any further. So, I agree. Originally by: Professor Leech To answer the previous question as to the benefit; turnover. The higher the volume of sales at any profit margin means more profit. A much more eloquent version of what I was trying to state!
Lo Lightshard Insurrection Inc Tygris Alliance	Posted - 2008.09.22 06:56:00 - [84] Originally by: Rho'varo Originally by: Lo Lightshard Doesn't Block Ukx have a reasonable explanation of this behaviour unless you refute some of his assumptions? Block Ukx's claims (1, 2, 3) were indeed refuted on the second page of this very thread. Thank you. This is what I was looking for: Originally by: Taikun Originally by: Rho'varo (i.e., was there a second similarly priced order?). Nope. Even price breaks of 0.01 isk. I missed it on the first read through. [IMA6E REMOVED]
Lo Lightshard Insurrection Inc Tygris Alliance	Posted - 2008.09.22 06:58:00 - [85] Originally by: Professor Leech To answer the previous question as to the benefit; turnover. The higher the volume of sales at any profit margin means more profit. But how does this increase the volume of sales? What is the difference beween one 1B sell order and ten 100M sell orders if they are immediately listed on completion at the same price? [IMA6E REMOVED]
Professor Leech Transmetropolitan	Posted - 2008.09.22 07:11:00 - [86] Originally by: Lo Lightshard Originally by: Professor Leech To answer the previous question as to the benefit; turnover. The higher the volume of sales at any profit margin means more profit. But how does this increase the volume of sales? What is the difference beween one 1B sell order and ten 100M sell orders if they are immediately listed on completion at the same price? For example say there is a volume of sales on an item of 100 per day. If you're online and updating orders you might sell 30 of the day's total sales playing the 0.01 isk game. Now with a bot you could potentially capture all of the day's sales. Same goes for buy orders. Just an example. Originally by: Crawe DeRaven this thread is obviously going places
Lo Lightshard Insurrection Inc Tygris Alliance	Posted - 2008.09.22 07:18:00 - [87] Edited by: Lo Lightshard on 22/09/2008 07:26:51 Originally by: Professor Leech For example say there is a volume of sales on an item of 100 per day. If you're online and updating orders you might sell 30 of the day's total sales playing the 0.01 isk game. Now with a bot you could potentially capture all of the day's sales. Same goes for buy orders. Just an example. But the bot is not changing prices; it is not playing the 0.01 ISK game for 23 hours. Just re-listing a fixed volume at a fixed price when an order completes? Edit: Got it, in this case the price was the lowest in the station as all previous sells had been bought. [IMA6E REMOVED]
YouGotRipped Ewigkeit	Posted - 2008.09.22 07:23:00 - [88] Edited by: YouGotRipped on 22/09/2008 07:35:44 Originally by: Professor Leech If you're online and updating orders you might sell 30 of the day's total sales playing the 0.01 isk game. Now with a bot you could potentially capture all of the day's sales. Same goes for buy orders. Just an example. Programming an OCR bot to be competitive is just asking for trouble. Bots should be designed to bump your order from time to time as there are plenty of competition free windows during a day/month cycle for a high enough number of different items. 2-3 such bot accounts with successive daily online status/randomly spaced are virtually undetectable.
Zos Tarkross Amarr Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2008.09.22 09:05:00 - [89] Originally by: YouGotRipped Programming an OCR bot to be competitive is just asking for trouble. And really (putting on my diabolical hat) someone with the skills to do it should switch from playing EvE to online poker or something like that. Risk of being caught is the same but with an online poker bot playing low stakes at least one would be earning real money... As a general philosophy perhaps it is best not to worry about market bots. Just figure out a way to enjoy the game...
Phelan K'ell	Posted - 2008.09.22 09:58:00 - [90] ?
Dranakolys Gallente Theurgy	Posted - 2008.09.22 13:20:00 - [91] Originally by: Zos Tarkross Originally by: YouGotRipped Programming an OCR bot to be competitive is just asking for trouble. And really (putting on my diabolical hat) someone with the skills to do it should switch from playing EvE to online poker or something like that. Risk of being caught is the same but with an online poker bot playing low stakes at least one would be earning real money... As a general philosophy perhaps it is best not to worry about market bots. Just figure out a way to enjoy the game... Bots that play profitable poker aren't that easy to write though as a 0.01 ISK bot :P _______________ Amused to Death
Shadarle	Posted - 2008.09.22 13:40:00 - [92] Way too many people attribute hacks/bots to people who simply have more drive/desire than they do. Just because someone else spends more time playing EVE and does it more astutely does not mean they are botting or cheating. Nor does it rule it out. All too often the best players get accused of cheating/hacking/botting in online games because it makes lesser players feel better about themselves. To acknowledge someone might actually be better than they are hurts the ego, much easier to assume such situations are due to cheating/hacking. In CS if you are killed by someone a few times then he must be cheating! In DAOC the guy had a speed-hack. In WOW the guy had a lot of money so must have had a dupe-hack. Get over it. If you think someone is hacking then either petition them or try to prove it and then petition them. If they are caught they will be banned. But don't assume anyone in a hulk in high-sec is a macro-miner just because they don't respond to your messages and don't assume a trader who out-performs you is botting.

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