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Bruce Deorum
Minmatar Mythos Corp RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2008.09.19 22:58:00 -
[1]
Ok.
All alliances, in almost all campaigns, have a positive efficiency, and a positive killed/lost ISK ratio. Something obviously is broken.
When an Alliance ship is killed it is part of the losses of the alliance. (100% loss) Whereas when even one alliance ship is involved in a kill (lets say involvement 20% one out of five ships) the alliance gets credit for the kill.
So what i have is multiple alliance sharing credit for one kill (or several corps, mechanism is the same) whereas losses are only credited to one corp/alliance.
Thats how all stats are fixed up, none of them gives us the real image of the campaign.
So the question comes, what can be done, so that KBs give a better picture of the campaigns/wars/ kills-loss ratio?
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Scagga Laebetrovo
Evil Bastards Pirate Coalition
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Posted - 2008.09.19 23:12:00 -
[2]
I don't think it is ever useful for an organisation to take it upon itself to give a truly accurate account of anything.
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Esna Pitoojee
Amarr Heavily Utilized Mechanic Mayhem
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Posted - 2008.09.19 23:12:00 -
[3]
Doesn't AT ALL belong in IGS.
True though. Nobody likes to show that they're loosing. ----------------------------------------------
Say "Amarr ships suk, lol." I dare you.
My statments do not represent the opinions, views, or actions of my corp. |
Bruce Deorum
Minmatar Mythos Corp RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2008.09.19 23:28:00 -
[4]
So you say its done on purpose?
So that all alliances boast about themselves? I think the mechanism is broken, thats what i said. Its not done on purpose its simply the mechanism. WIN = 20 ships. LOSS=1 ship. We all end up winners!
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Megan Maynard
Minmatar 17th Minmatar Tactical Wing
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Posted - 2008.09.19 23:32:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Esna Pitoojee Doesn't AT ALL belong in IGS.
True though. Nobody likes to show that they're loosing.
Why?
The minmatar militia keeps an active KB, and so do the amarr. It's a legitimate way for us to track progress in our efforts to push the amarr out.
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Scagga Laebetrovo
Evil Bastards Pirate Coalition
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Posted - 2008.09.20 00:02:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Megan Maynard It's a legitimate way...
*Guffaws at an in-joke*
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Veron Daerth
Amarr Blood Meridian
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Posted - 2008.09.20 00:17:00 -
[7]
Interesting... what is this "killboard" you speak of? Does it actually kill people? Is it some kind of secret weapon? Can I have one?
((I would recommend asking this in maybe C&P or maybe EVE General Discussion, but its a bit of a stretch to put it in the IGS))
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Sepherim
Amarr Ordo Quaesitoris
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Posted - 2008.09.20 00:52:00 -
[8]
Welcome to the great world of PR and morale. Nothing new under the sun.
Ordo Quaesitoris Forum |
Natalia Duraldi
Gallente Pillowsoft
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Posted - 2008.09.20 02:43:00 -
[9]
Killboard databases are a good way to track where the action seems to be developing in a given region, although unfortunately due to human error some losses may not be posted, for the most part they are to be used as a general tool and nothing more.
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Corvus Seth
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Posted - 2008.09.20 05:13:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Corvus Seth on 20/09/2008 05:15:50
Quote: Interesting... what is this "killboard" you speak of? Does it actually kill people? Is it some kind of secret weapon? Can I have one?
Killboards are publically accessible databases where corporation members keep track of their victories and losses. Almost every major corporate entity run by capsuleers owns a killboard. The existence of CONCORD killmails and capsuleer killboards probably is a well-known fact even for non-capsuleer pilots these days. |
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Veron Daerth
Amarr Blood Meridian
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Posted - 2008.09.20 06:19:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Corvus Seth Edited by: Corvus Seth on 20/09/2008 05:15:50 Killboards are publically accessible databases where corporation members keep track of their victories and losses. Almost every major corporate entity run by capsuleers owns a killboard. The existence of CONCORD killmails and capsuleer killboards probably is a well-known fact even for non-capsuleer pilots these days.
<Veron Daerth sighs>
Indeed, Pilot Seth. I was being somewhat sarcastic.
((As you may have noted, I was intimating that a post about the validity and accuracy of killboards might be more appropriate to C&P or General Discussion, as opposed to an IC forum such as this one, dedicated to RP as it is. I admit that my sense of ... humor and sarcasm sometimes gets the better of me and my "good" behavior.))
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Bruce Deorum
Minmatar Mythos Corp RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2008.09.20 07:13:00 -
[12]
OMG.
Killboards are not Militia Kills, ffs. KBs are something like that (id never though ppl wouldnt be aware of them even in Empire...) http://www.eve-razor.com/killboard/
All Alliances have KBs, and almost all corps. Usually the killmails are being cross posted, so even if i dont post my loss, but my killer posts his kill (even at anothers alliance KB, I cant avoid having another loss.
And i go on saying. It is the mechanism that should be somewhat different.
If 5 people gang one person (or even 5 persons but kill just one of them) all 5 people get a kill whereas only one person gets a loss.
If 2 alliances in same gang kill someone both alliances get kill, but if someone is killed only one alliance suffers LOSS. This way all stats (google killboards morsus mihi, bob, razor, etc) always seem better than the truth.
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Scagga Laebetrovo
Evil Bastards Pirate Coalition
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Posted - 2008.09.20 07:22:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Bruce Deorum OMG.
Killboards are not Militia Kills, ffs. KBs are something like that (id never though ppl wouldnt be aware of them even in Empire...) http://www.eve-razor.com/killboard/
All Alliances have KBs, and almost all corps. Usually the killmails are being cross posted, so even if i dont post my loss, but my killer posts his kill (even at anothers alliance KB, I cant avoid having another loss.
And i go on saying. It is the mechanism that should be somewhat different.
If 5 people gang one person (or even 5 persons but kill just one of them) all 5 people get a kill whereas only one person gets a loss.
If 2 alliances in same gang kill someone both alliances get kill, but if someone is killed only one alliance suffers LOSS. This way all stats (google killboards morsus mihi, bob, razor, etc) always seem better than the truth.
You need to calm down sir, you're repeating yourself *chuckles*
It can be useful for a discussion if you read the replies properly.
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Svenjabi Xiang
Gallente Reaper Industries Eternal Rapture
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Posted - 2008.09.20 16:19:00 -
[14]
So what you're saying is that by reading a datum of a set, that the statistics generated mislead you into beliving that you have the entire picture of the event in question, without bothering to look for the remainder of the data set.
Alert the media.
By the way, I have a wonderful investment property in a quiet neighborhood, just awaiting investment capital.
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Ethen Bejorn
Pestilent Industries Amalgamated
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Posted - 2008.09.21 04:15:00 -
[15]
How come RAZOR doesn't have any active campaigns listed on thier killboard? Why don't you make one up and show your effiency versus the GBC? I'd think that would give you your alliances most accurate indication of how your particular alliance is faring in the current hostilities.
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Tellenta
Gallente Invicta.
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Posted - 2008.09.21 04:19:00 -
[16]
Kill boards can be great tools for enemies and friends alike. For example you are attacking a massive pirate corp blob, their kill board lists 2000 hauler kills, 1000 cruiser kills 750 battle cruiser kills and 250 battleship kills. They out number you by 5. You will eat them alive they have zero pvp experiance.
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Energon Avenger
Gallente ST STARFLEET COMMAND
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Posted - 2008.09.21 04:59:00 -
[17]
IAC killboard is the best!
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Max Bauer
Happy Tree Friends
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Posted - 2008.09.21 05:14:00 -
[18]
why anyone even cares about killboards is beyond imagination for me. whoever had fun won. regardless how many ships of how many alliances exploded.
we're not dead. yet. |
Gnulpie
Minmatar Miner Tech
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Posted - 2008.09.21 05:23:00 -
[19]
CCP provided us with a solution already.
The killmail shows exactly how much damage the people of the gang did. Now just sum up for your corp/alliance members those percentages and there you are.
Example: Gang of 5 people, 3 alliances: alliance A,B,C
Person 1, alliance A: 40% damage Person 2, alliance B: 35% damage Person 3, alliance A: 17% damage Person 4, alliance C: 8% damage Person 5, alliance C: 0% damage (ecm)
Now, it is easy to see that Alliance A did 57% of the damage, alliance B did 35% and alliance C did 8%.
Also it shows some pitfalls, that for example tacklers and ecm boats will only get low percentages usually even though they are important. But stil, I think using these percentages from the killmail are the best way to fix the borked killboards.
At the moment any k/d or isk destroyed/lost ratio in multi-alliance wars is without any meaning. Especially with using the percentages from the killmail the isk destroyed/lost ratio would easily be fixed!
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Lord Fitz
Project Amargosa
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Posted - 2008.09.21 05:51:00 -
[20]
Killboards are one aspect of the truth, but there are so many things you will never see on them (people that didn't die or succeed in killing but were say jamming, scanning, making warp-ins etc). There are lies, damn lies and killboards. Even if they're 100% accurate they're not. Unless you're in a 1v1 fight :p
I really wouldn't let it worry you, it's not as if they count for anything anyway. (though your enemies kill board is a GREAT place to get intel on them, especially if they auto-post, crowded system, you need to scan them down... what ship were they last in ;) etc etc.
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Yorda
Battlestars GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.09.21 06:10:00 -
[21]
MY K:D RATIO
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Dirtball
PinK TacO Inc.
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Posted - 2008.09.21 06:20:00 -
[22]
Just set a 2 pilot cap on all fleets
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Huan Hunglong
Intensive CareBearz
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Posted - 2008.09.21 06:43:00 -
[23]
Killboards are nothing more than e-peens.
They dont show who won the fight They dont show who held the field They dont show who held the space They dont show who gained profit from looting/salvage
Go visit pures killboard, youd swear they held vale!
They server no use, other than a method to track what ships/fittings your opponents use.
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Mr Digs
Influence of Destruction
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Posted - 2008.09.21 06:47:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Bruce Deorum Ok.
All alliances, in almost all campaigns, have a positive efficiency, and a positive killed/lost ISK ratio. Something obviously is broken.
When an Alliance ship is killed it is part of the losses of the alliance. (100% loss) Whereas when even one alliance ship is involved in a kill (lets say involvement 20% one out of five ships) the alliance gets credit for the kill.
So what i have is multiple alliance sharing credit for one kill (or several corps, mechanism is the same) whereas losses are only credited to one corp/alliance.
Thats how all stats are fixed up, none of them gives us the real image of the campaign.
So the question comes, what can be done, so that KBs give a better picture of the campaigns/wars/ kills-loss ratio?
Why did you do this? eh?
A Killboard is not going to be 100% honest and complete due to people not posting kills/losses. Now and API pull off every killboard would solve this issue.
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Leuthispar
coracao ardente Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.09.21 07:00:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Leuthispar on 21/09/2008 07:04:09 You can make your kb pull stuff from ingame with the API, dont know exactly how it works but karbo's killboards(Tri kb for example) do that, so no matter if your kill/loss mail isnt on another kb to fetch it from it will be posted regardless. Only does it once every few days iirc though.
On another note I browse through a lot of ppl's kbs when im bored at work and I can tell you the reason why a lot of ppl seem to have positive performance on their kb but negative on others is just because they arent posting kms or dont have a tool to post it for them.
I know this will sound biased because im TRI and ur NC but looking at Pure/Razor/Iron/Hydra even Morsus Mihi half of the lossmails and even some killmails are missing. Pick any random engagement and see the kills/losses then go to the enemy's boards and lookup same engagement and you'll see more kms. But yea kbs are just epeen they dont tell the whole story, carebears have their officer fitted trophy ships and loads of billions of isk in their wallets to brag about and (most)pvpers got their kb stats to brag about.
CAOD A forum for threads with words like: deterministic alts, drama continuations, lagsploits generators, nodecrash extrapolation , killboard stat shader, forum ban distribution, etc. |
killerco
Gallente Dutch T2 Production
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Posted - 2008.09.21 07:00:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Bruce Deorum
So the question comes, what can be done, so that KBs give a better picture of the campaigns/wars/ kills-loss ratio?
i guess it would be something like. The person who gives the final blow should be on the killmail and nobody else.
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Farham
Titan Industries Technology Team Shadow of xXDEATHXx
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Posted - 2008.09.21 07:07:00 -
[27]
YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!
Titan Industries Technology Team
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Gnulpie
Minmatar Miner Tech
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Posted - 2008.09.21 07:17:00 -
[28]
Originally by: killerco The person who gives the final blow should be on the killmail and nobody else.
That would make no sense.
CCP gave us a good system which shows exactly who did how much damage.
If corps and alliances do not use that info but instead give always 100% credits even with 1% participation I do not blame CCP in this case (hahah!) but actually those alliances/corps. And I somehow suspect that an "accurate" killboard with proper overview of destroyed/lost isk is not in the interest of most of the alliances.
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PsychoBones
R.E.C.O.N. A.X.I.S
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Posted - 2008.09.21 07:26:00 -
[29]
I am shocked by this brand new revelation about killboards. This is truly groundbreaking.
Did we not have several discussions much like the while discussing the efficiency of the NC vs Trisurgency campaign?
R.E.C.O.N. - Helping a soon-to-be defunct alliance failurecascade near you. |
Gumpy Nighthawk
Amarr Octavian Vanguard RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2008.09.21 07:28:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Ethen Bejorn How come RAZOR doesn't have any active campaigns listed on thier killboard? Why don't you make one up and show your effiency versus the GBC? I'd think that would give you your alliances most accurate indication of how your particular alliance is faring in the current hostilities.
Yes because active campaigns magically add the losses of our allies that participated. We know by ourselves how we are doing, but it's not a really accurate report, because even though a battle may look like we won with 20/4 but if our allies lost allot more because we had a bad day of participation, then it really is far from accurate. Signature Locked. Please refrain from amending a moderated warning. Navigator |
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