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KillBoards dont show the truth.

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Darklin Eldaris The Illuminati.	Posted - 2008.09.21 17:38:00 - [61] Originally by: Bruce Deorum OMG. Killboards are not Militia Kills, ffs. KBs are something like that (id never though ppl wouldnt be aware of them even in Empire...) http://www.eve-razor.com/killboard/ All Alliances have KBs, and almost all corps. Usually the killmails are being cross posted, so even if i dont post my loss, but my killer posts his kill (even at anothers alliance KB, I cant avoid having another loss. And i go on saying. It is the mechanism that should be somewhat different. If 5 people gang one person (or even 5 persons but kill just one of them) all 5 people get a kill whereas only one person gets a loss. If 2 alliances in same gang kill someone both alliances get kill, but if someone is killed only one alliance suffers LOSS. This way all stats (google killboards morsus mihi, bob, razor, etc) always seem better than the truth. logic is broken. If two different alliances help kill you, they both scored a kill. If you lost one ship, you only took one loss. If one alliance is ganging with another alliance who loses a ship, should both alliances have to take a loss? No, they should not. Each person in this game is responsible for their own ship and whether or not it will be destroyed. Since one character can only belong to one corp/alliance it makes complete sense that they should be the only ones recording the loss. If I go shoot someone from goonfleet does it mean RA has to replace their ship? No. WTS logic.
Bruce Deorum Minmatar Mythos Corp RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.09.21 18:23:00 - [62] In a win situation all are winners. In a loss situation only one is losser. Whatever criteria are used for 1st case should be also used for the second case, which doesnt happen.
codex09 Minmatar Entropy Systems Mining Co.	Posted - 2008.09.22 00:39:00 - [63] I guess the best way to get a good idea of what happened in a fight is to either only go off alliance/corp losses OR try to gauge what has happened by only using the main alliance's KB. (does that sound right? Too early in the damn morning) The worst part of this sort of thing is that some alliance's use this thing to make their corp/alliance look like it is actually more active, or a lot more powerful than they really are. Anyway in the long run I guess it is something that wouldn't be too hard to fix surely, and if KB stats are what you play for then hey if it makes people feel better about themselves it can't be all that bad can it? Use Your Fears To Conquer Your Enemies!?!
Wendat Huron Stellar Solutions	Posted - 2008.09.22 03:04:00 - [64] Quick, someone post an edited killmail with Truth being the victim, I hear Pr0paganda, Slander666, Captain Obvious & Misconception were all in on it. These forums are FUBAR, upgrade this decade!
AIchemist Gallente O.W.N. Corp OWN Alliance	Posted - 2008.09.22 03:50:00 - [65] Just keep RZR posting!!!!!!! between you cent,hep, and two it just gets better and better.
Veldya Guristari Freedom Fighters	Posted - 2008.09.22 03:54:00 - [66] Originally by: Ishamel 1 You can get a pretty clear picture off the killboards. You just go to the killboard of the biggest entity in the powerblock involved and take the kills from there. There will be few kills that the largest entity was not involved in, and as killmails are pretty quickly hunted down it should be fairly accurate. Ignore losses from all boards. So for example in a GBC vs NC fight where the NC forces largely comprised of say razor, you would go to the BoB and Razor boards and look at kills, ignoring losses. Its not accurate but gives the clearest indication. Of course this thread was obviously a troll as no-one doesn't know that k/d ratios etc are inaccurate when multiple alliances are involved in each side. Yep, this is the truth because in fleet battles and I am talking lagged to shit fleet battles EVE will often generate kill mails but not lossmails. I often don't get lossmail in the laggy fights but always get killmails.
Maverick 52 Fusion Enterprises Ltd Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2008.09.22 05:10:00 - [67] I find the best way to judge performance is by looking at the Battle Summaries. That lets you tell a fleets makeup, size, and efficiency versus their opponents. If a 20 man gang(A) went up against a 30 man gang(B), gang A lost 10 ships and gang B lost 25, clearly gang A was capable of killing more of the other gang. This makes it likely that they held the field, and were able to loot/salvage. Looking at the losses, if gang A was made up of T2 rigged out HACs/Recons/HIC's, and gang B was made up of T1 fitted Battlecruisers and Cruisers, we know that gang B were able to cause more ISK damage to their opponent. Who won the fight? Depends on what the goal was. If the goal was to gank some people and to send their ISK up in flames, Gang B likely feels they won. If Gang A's goal was to WTFPWN Gang B no matter what, Gang A feels they won. Either way being able to look at the numbers, ships, fittings, kills/losses lets you decide if the outcome was good or bad. Crediting people with fractions of kills based purely on the number of people on the kill mail isn't the correct way to achieve this balance you want. What happens when that nano pilot catches a ratting carrier in a belt and keeps it tackled for 10 minutes while a gang hustles to kill it? He gets 1/20 of the credit for doing the most important part? If you want to look at KB stats to judge performance, you have to try a little harder than a quick total of Kills to Losses. It's just going to be that way until you have a central KB where you can assign all alliances involved to a side of the campaign, then losses are displayed for each alliance or totaled up. Like it's been said before, you can still monitor all sides involved and watch that loss column for a accurate assessment if you want, a central KB just makes life easier.
Twoside Gallente Thundercats RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.09.22 06:08:00 - [68] Originally by: AIchemist Just keep RZR posting!!!!!!! between you cent,hep, and two it just gets better and better. We aim to please :) Furthermore, LOL Mythos :P
Lieutenant Obvious Caldari Thundercats RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.09.22 10:00:00 - [69] Originally by: Wendat Huron Quick, someone post an edited killmail with Truth being the victim, I hear Pr0paganda, Slander666, Captain Obvious & Misconception were all in on it. I'm getting a promotion?
128th ABC123 Eve Liberation Force Liberty.	Posted - 2008.09.22 10:33:00 - [70] Originally by: Energon Avenger IAC killboard is the best! Its API run, so i dont know wtf you are talking about, but apparently youve just heard some people talk about iac and thought you would join the happy parade? stfu troll

Varrakk Phantom Squad Axiom Empire	Posted - 2008.09.22 11:38:00 - [71] First, all involved alliances gotta use API (I suspect it still isnt flawless and killmails not generated) After that, NC can start a sync feed to GBC. Then we might get a accurate k/l ratio. But the isk value will be off since so many killmails end up blank
Karbowiak Caldari coracao ardente Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.09.22 13:37:00 - [72] Edited by: Karbowiak on 22/09/2008 13:39:21 how much pot did you smoke before you came to the conclution that the current killboards make everyone look like a winner?!.. :P However its not all about that, killboard ratios DO drop and RISE depending on how much damage is done. Ive seen it before many times that effeciency drops below 50% (which is bad in general) - many killboards get around this by making losses on capitals (moms and titans espcially) worth 0isk - so they effectively count as 0.. (GAME-OVER lost their Titan, and ZakMa then set the Titan price worth 0 isk, so Requiem's overall effeciency wasn't below 60% for example.. This was AFTER i emoraged and deleted everything :P) Some also artificially make their stats better by posting Sisi super cap kills (yee, i spent 2 weeks deleting a mail posted by Razor - where they killed a CCP Titan.. Plus there was a D00M guy on it so the Tri board kept syncing it) So - yes and no, killboards show the true fact - aslong as we all are willingly to leave our killboards open to the public (AND NOT DISABLE THE FEED RIGHT HYDRA?!) LONG LIVE CONCRETE! Free Killboard Hosting Service
Ryuga VonRhaiden Caldari Insurgent New Eden Tribe Systematic-Chaos	Posted - 2008.09.22 16:51:00 - [73] the only thing that would make killboards "fair" should be a system based on points/ISKs divided by alliances basing on partecipation, as suggested, and roughly weighted by shipclass deployed (so, if 30 people were shooting at a carrier, and there were 5 dreadnoughts from alliance A and 25 light/medium support by alliance B, the alliance A would still hold a greater chunk of points/ISK damage). it should not matter really who did more damage (as ewar and tackling do no damage but they are still very important), but who deployed what ships, as the alliance fielding better ships should be better "rewarded" by the system as it risked more and were more useful. a rook and a blackbird could still appear on every killmail in a battle, but the rook was certainly more effective at doing its duty (except if the pilot was totally dumb using wrong ECM types, but that kind of things is hard to track on a killboard), so it should get a greater chunk of points/ISKs... Do not try and find the signature... that's impossible. Instead only try to realize the truth... There is no signature.
Rajere No Trademark Notoriety Alliance	Posted - 2008.09.22 17:08:00 - [74] Quote: Dont know about other Alliances i can only answer for a 98+% for CR1ME and my corp DKILL for 99+% mails posted and yes loss mails also. Besides if i catch anyone not posting he is fined 5Mill per mail and i do check other boards regulary to compair. If you dont post loss mails then whats the point of having one right CRIME http://corpvsdelicti.110mb.com/?a=home DKILL http://corpvsdelicti.110mb.com/DKILL/?a=home Not to derail or call you out or anything, but do you consider pods as killmails that are required to be posted? I see a few pod and newb ship kills/losses but I see alot of pods missing. Actually a better question, is "modro" still a corp in your alliance? They seem to be the #1 culprit for not posting losses. If Modro is still in your alliance you need to charge them 85mil isk for unposted losses, 45 if you exclude pod mails. Here are losses that are not posted on your alliance killboard: Pods: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 Cruisers: 9 10 11 12 13 14 Destroyers: 15 Frigs: 16 17 Hauler: (was Vengence of the Fallen) 18 Here is a kill you were missing, but it was another alliance who got the mail and you probably aren't sync'd with them. The player on this mail is also in modro. Missing Kill: 1 Again not trying to start anything or call you out (wish there was a pm option), but our corp never really fought you guys in the brief time we were in that area and you're missing half of our kills against you. I didn't bother comparing newbship mails and honestly don't care if you post newbship/pod losses or not, just letting you know in case you do. We required every kill/loss including newb ships to be posted, to maintain our kb integrity. Anything that could show up as a kill on another kb was required to be posted as a loss on ours, because all it takes is 1 missed lossmail to discredit all your work maintaining the kb/enforcing your policies. We also frequently posted pure NPC losses so we could make fun of ppl in our corp who lost faction BSes while carebearing, but that's another subject :) Doesn't matter much anymore except for historical data, but when everyone claims they post 100% of their losses or close to it when they really don't, it dilutes the value of our claims, & our efforts to back them up. Kills you have less control over if you're group isn't the one who got the killmail, and as for your corp itself you're spot on. But other corps in your Alliance you have less control of, and if they won't use api, you shouldn't make any claims on behalf of your alliance's kb accuracy. How to Fail at Eve
Jehovah Cooper H A V O C The Cadre.	Posted - 2008.09.22 17:29:00 - [75] Wow a useful thread in CAOD, and its getting all crapped up. Surprise. I know this will just be lost in the noise but we actually have a legitimate question to tackle and some decent suggestions. Suggestions I've seen: 1. Have a power-block killboard that synchs BOTH kills and LOSSES and from all participants. This ensures that each kill is counted once and each loss counted once. 2. The ISS system - which basically gave you points for the kill based on the number of participants on the mail with you - the more participants the fewer you got. Your loss was always the full amount of course (you actually had to be a good pvper to be positive on this board). Could be combined with 3: 3. Assign points based on damage dealt percentage (which will always tot up to 100%, assuring that a kill is not counted multiple times across different boards). All of these are do-able. In the case of solution #1, most alliances already synch with all the powerblock they just don't synch their allies' losses - they only get kills and only those kills which they participated in. Changes to synch code and giving people options to synch all the kills would be possible but of course it would create a lot more traffic and demand on the database especially if everyone uses it on individual alliance boards instead of picking a central hub. #2 or #3 could just be added to the current killboard stats. It won't give such a complete story as #1 could but at least wouldn't so wildly overstate everyone's efficiency and it wouldn't impose any additional server or network traffic. So, killboard devs, go do it! :P
Greckor Monmouth THE FINAL STAND	Posted - 2008.09.22 18:10:00 - [76] if you need a KB to tell you how good/bad you are doing, then your doing something wrong.
Rajere No Trademark Notoriety Alliance	Posted - 2008.09.22 18:11:00 - [77] Quote: 2. The ISS system - which basically gave you points for the kill based on the number of participants on the mail with you - the more participants the fewer you got. Your loss was always the full amount of course (you actually had to be a good pvper to be positive on this board). Could be combined with 3: In case you didn't realize, the current killboards already do this. Anyone running the eve-dev kb (which is practically everyone in the game, minus those few hold outs still on griefwatch) has a thing called Kill Points (and Loss Points). Both are calculated based on ship types, number of participants, etc. Go to any eve-dev killboard and click on the about link: Quote: If enabled, every kill is assigned a point value. Based on the shiptype destroyed, and the number and types of ships involved in the kill, the number of points indicates the difficulty of the kill... As a result, a gank will get a lot less points awarded than a kill in a small engagement. How to Fail at Eve
Jehovah Cooper H A V O C The Cadre.	Posted - 2008.09.22 18:39:00 - [78] Originally by: Rajere Quote: If enabled, every kill is assigned a point value. Based on the shiptype destroyed, and the number and types of ships involved in the kill, the number of points indicates the difficulty of the kill... As a result, a gank will get a lot less points awarded than a kill in a small engagement. These aren't used for campaigns or efficiency calculations though, which is what you'd need to address the OP. Also is the total killpoints from a kill always the same amount? If a solo kill of some ship is worth 1000 points, if 5 people kill the same ship do they all get 200? It doesn't seem this strict to me just from looking at totals on our killboard.
Cupdeez Out of Order	Posted - 2008.09.22 19:08:00 - [79] I will tell you the quick and easy solution to this.. Using the North as an Example but applies to all alliances with friends. Example: The norther nap happy people said why do we have 10 alliances all napped why don't we all come together and make 1 large alliance? This will never happen because everyone thinks they can do it better.. Hints the reson for 130983 5-100 man corps in EVE. If the north actually came together and made 1 super large alliance they would probably do better verse BOB but that will never happen. LETS JUST BE BLUE! I personally think EVE should make it so you can't set anyone blue.. If they are not in your alliance\Corp you can't see if they are so called friends. I would think this would limit the size of gangs and people bloobing systems with so called friends.


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