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KillBoards dont show the truth.

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Bruce Deorum Minmatar Mythos Corp RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.09.19 22:58:00 - [1] Ok. All alliances, in almost all campaigns, have a positive efficiency, and a positive killed/lost ISK ratio. Something obviously is broken. When an Alliance ship is killed it is part of the losses of the alliance. (100% loss) Whereas when even one alliance ship is involved in a kill (lets say involvement 20% one out of five ships) the alliance gets credit for the kill. So what i have is multiple alliance sharing credit for one kill (or several corps, mechanism is the same) whereas losses are only credited to one corp/alliance. Thats how all stats are fixed up, none of them gives us the real image of the campaign. So the question comes, what can be done, so that KBs give a better picture of the campaigns/wars/ kills-loss ratio?
Scagga Laebetrovo Evil Bastards Pirate Coalition	Posted - 2008.09.19 23:12:00 - [2] I don't think it is ever useful for an organisation to take it upon itself to give a truly accurate account of anything.
Esna Pitoojee Amarr Heavily Utilized Mechanic Mayhem	Posted - 2008.09.19 23:12:00 - [3] Doesn't AT ALL belong in IGS. True though. Nobody likes to show that they're loosing. ---------------------------------------------- Say "Amarr ships suk, lol." I dare you. My statments do not represent the opinions, views, or actions of my corp.
Bruce Deorum Minmatar Mythos Corp RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.09.19 23:28:00 - [4] So you say its done on purpose? So that all alliances boast about themselves? I think the mechanism is broken, thats what i said. Its not done on purpose its simply the mechanism. WIN = 20 ships. LOSS=1 ship. We all end up winners!
Megan Maynard Minmatar 17th Minmatar Tactical Wing	Posted - 2008.09.19 23:32:00 - [5] Originally by: Esna Pitoojee Doesn't AT ALL belong in IGS. True though. Nobody likes to show that they're loosing. Why? The minmatar militia keeps an active KB, and so do the amarr. It's a legitimate way for us to track progress in our efforts to push the amarr out.
Scagga Laebetrovo Evil Bastards Pirate Coalition	Posted - 2008.09.20 00:02:00 - [6] Originally by: Megan Maynard It's a legitimate way... Guffaws at an in-joke
Veron Daerth Amarr Blood Meridian	Posted - 2008.09.20 00:17:00 - [7] Interesting... what is this "killboard" you speak of? Does it actually kill people? Is it some kind of secret weapon? Can I have one? ((I would recommend asking this in maybe C&P or maybe EVE General Discussion, but its a bit of a stretch to put it in the IGS))
Sepherim Amarr Ordo Quaesitoris	Posted - 2008.09.20 00:52:00 - [8] Welcome to the great world of PR and morale. Nothing new under the sun. Ordo Quaesitoris Forum
Natalia Duraldi Gallente Pillowsoft	Posted - 2008.09.20 02:43:00 - [9] Killboard databases are a good way to track where the action seems to be developing in a given region, although unfortunately due to human error some losses may not be posted, for the most part they are to be used as a general tool and nothing more.
Corvus Seth	Posted - 2008.09.20 05:13:00 - [10] Edited by: Corvus Seth on 20/09/2008 05:15:50 Quote: Interesting... what is this "killboard" you speak of? Does it actually kill people? Is it some kind of secret weapon? Can I have one? Killboards are publically accessible databases where corporation members keep track of their victories and losses. Almost every major corporate entity run by capsuleers owns a killboard. The existence of CONCORD killmails and capsuleer killboards probably is a well-known fact even for non-capsuleer pilots these days.

Veron Daerth Amarr Blood Meridian	Posted - 2008.09.20 06:19:00 - [11] Originally by: Corvus Seth Edited by: Corvus Seth on 20/09/2008 05:15:50 Killboards are publically accessible databases where corporation members keep track of their victories and losses. Almost every major corporate entity run by capsuleers owns a killboard. The existence of CONCORD killmails and capsuleer killboards probably is a well-known fact even for non-capsuleer pilots these days. <Veron Daerth sighs> Indeed, Pilot Seth. I was being somewhat sarcastic. ((As you may have noted, I was intimating that a post about the validity and accuracy of killboards might be more appropriate to C&P or General Discussion, as opposed to an IC forum such as this one, dedicated to RP as it is. I admit that my sense of ... humor and sarcasm sometimes gets the better of me and my "good" behavior.))
Bruce Deorum Minmatar Mythos Corp RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.09.20 07:13:00 - [12] OMG. Killboards are not Militia Kills, ffs. KBs are something like that (id never though ppl wouldnt be aware of them even in Empire...) http://www.eve-razor.com/killboard/ All Alliances have KBs, and almost all corps. Usually the killmails are being cross posted, so even if i dont post my loss, but my killer posts his kill (even at anothers alliance KB, I cant avoid having another loss. And i go on saying. It is the mechanism that should be somewhat different. If 5 people gang one person (or even 5 persons but kill just one of them) all 5 people get a kill whereas only one person gets a loss. If 2 alliances in same gang kill someone both alliances get kill, but if someone is killed only one alliance suffers LOSS. This way all stats (google killboards morsus mihi, bob, razor, etc) always seem better than the truth.
Scagga Laebetrovo Evil Bastards Pirate Coalition	Posted - 2008.09.20 07:22:00 - [13] Originally by: Bruce Deorum OMG. Killboards are not Militia Kills, ffs. KBs are something like that (id never though ppl wouldnt be aware of them even in Empire...) http://www.eve-razor.com/killboard/ All Alliances have KBs, and almost all corps. Usually the killmails are being cross posted, so even if i dont post my loss, but my killer posts his kill (even at anothers alliance KB, I cant avoid having another loss. And i go on saying. It is the mechanism that should be somewhat different. If 5 people gang one person (or even 5 persons but kill just one of them) all 5 people get a kill whereas only one person gets a loss. If 2 alliances in same gang kill someone both alliances get kill, but if someone is killed only one alliance suffers LOSS. This way all stats (google killboards morsus mihi, bob, razor, etc) always seem better than the truth. You need to calm down sir, you're repeating yourself chuckles It can be useful for a discussion if you read the replies properly.
Svenjabi Xiang Gallente Reaper Industries Eternal Rapture	Posted - 2008.09.20 16:19:00 - [14] So what you're saying is that by reading a datum of a set, that the statistics generated mislead you into beliving that you have the entire picture of the event in question, without bothering to look for the remainder of the data set. Alert the media. By the way, I have a wonderful investment property in a quiet neighborhood, just awaiting investment capital.
Ethen Bejorn Pestilent Industries Amalgamated	Posted - 2008.09.21 04:15:00 - [15] How come RAZOR doesn't have any active campaigns listed on thier killboard? Why don't you make one up and show your effiency versus the GBC? I'd think that would give you your alliances most accurate indication of how your particular alliance is faring in the current hostilities.
Tellenta Gallente Invicta.	Posted - 2008.09.21 04:19:00 - [16] Kill boards can be great tools for enemies and friends alike. For example you are attacking a massive pirate corp blob, their kill board lists 2000 hauler kills, 1000 cruiser kills 750 battle cruiser kills and 250 battleship kills. They out number you by 5. You will eat them alive they have zero pvp experiance.
Energon Avenger Gallente ST STARFLEET COMMAND	Posted - 2008.09.21 04:59:00 - [17] IAC killboard is the best!
Max Bauer Happy Tree Friends	Posted - 2008.09.21 05:14:00 - [18] why anyone even cares about killboards is beyond imagination for me. whoever had fun won. regardless how many ships of how many alliances exploded. we're not dead. yet.
Gnulpie Minmatar Miner Tech	Posted - 2008.09.21 05:23:00 - [19] CCP provided us with a solution already. The killmail shows exactly how much damage the people of the gang did. Now just sum up for your corp/alliance members those percentages and there you are. Example: Gang of 5 people, 3 alliances: alliance A,B,C Person 1, alliance A: 40% damage Person 2, alliance B: 35% damage Person 3, alliance A: 17% damage Person 4, alliance C: 8% damage Person 5, alliance C: 0% damage (ecm) Now, it is easy to see that Alliance A did 57% of the damage, alliance B did 35% and alliance C did 8%. Also it shows some pitfalls, that for example tacklers and ecm boats will only get low percentages usually even though they are important. But stil, I think using these percentages from the killmail are the best way to fix the borked killboards. At the moment any k/d or isk destroyed/lost ratio in multi-alliance wars is without any meaning. Especially with using the percentages from the killmail the isk destroyed/lost ratio would easily be fixed!
Lord Fitz Project Amargosa	Posted - 2008.09.21 05:51:00 - [20] Killboards are one aspect of the truth, but there are so many things you will never see on them (people that didn't die or succeed in killing but were say jamming, scanning, making warp-ins etc). There are lies, damn lies and killboards. Even if they're 100% accurate they're not. Unless you're in a 1v1 fight :p I really wouldn't let it worry you, it's not as if they count for anything anyway. (though your enemies kill board is a GREAT place to get intel on them, especially if they auto-post, crowded system, you need to scan them down... what ship were they last in ;) etc etc.

Yorda Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.09.21 06:10:00 - [21] MY K:D RATIO
Dirtball PinK TacO Inc.	Posted - 2008.09.21 06:20:00 - [22] Just set a 2 pilot cap on all fleets
Huan Hunglong Intensive CareBearz	Posted - 2008.09.21 06:43:00 - [23] Killboards are nothing more than e-peens. They dont show who won the fight They dont show who held the field They dont show who held the space They dont show who gained profit from looting/salvage Go visit pures killboard, youd swear they held vale! They server no use, other than a method to track what ships/fittings your opponents use.
Mr Digs Influence of Destruction	Posted - 2008.09.21 06:47:00 - [24] Originally by: Bruce Deorum Ok. All alliances, in almost all campaigns, have a positive efficiency, and a positive killed/lost ISK ratio. Something obviously is broken. When an Alliance ship is killed it is part of the losses of the alliance. (100% loss) Whereas when even one alliance ship is involved in a kill (lets say involvement 20% one out of five ships) the alliance gets credit for the kill. So what i have is multiple alliance sharing credit for one kill (or several corps, mechanism is the same) whereas losses are only credited to one corp/alliance. Thats how all stats are fixed up, none of them gives us the real image of the campaign. So the question comes, what can be done, so that KBs give a better picture of the campaigns/wars/ kills-loss ratio? Why did you do this? eh? A Killboard is not going to be 100% honest and complete due to people not posting kills/losses. Now and API pull off every killboard would solve this issue.
Leuthispar coracao ardente Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.09.21 07:00:00 - [25] Edited by: Leuthispar on 21/09/2008 07:04:09 You can make your kb pull stuff from ingame with the API, dont know exactly how it works but karbo's killboards(Tri kb for example) do that, so no matter if your kill/loss mail isnt on another kb to fetch it from it will be posted regardless. Only does it once every few days iirc though. On another note I browse through a lot of ppl's kbs when im bored at work and I can tell you the reason why a lot of ppl seem to have positive performance on their kb but negative on others is just because they arent posting kms or dont have a tool to post it for them. I know this will sound biased because im TRI and ur NC but looking at Pure/Razor/Iron/Hydra even Morsus Mihi half of the lossmails and even some killmails are missing. Pick any random engagement and see the kills/losses then go to the enemy's boards and lookup same engagement and you'll see more kms. But yea kbs are just epeen they dont tell the whole story, carebears have their officer fitted trophy ships and loads of billions of isk in their wallets to brag about and (most)pvpers got their kb stats to brag about. CAOD A forum for threads with words like: deterministic alts, drama continuations, lagsploits generators, nodecrash extrapolation , killboard stat shader, forum ban distribution, etc.
killerco Gallente Dutch T2 Production	Posted - 2008.09.21 07:00:00 - [26] Originally by: Bruce Deorum So the question comes, what can be done, so that KBs give a better picture of the campaigns/wars/ kills-loss ratio? i guess it would be something like. The person who gives the final blow should be on the killmail and nobody else.
Farham Titan Industries Technology Team Shadow of xXDEATHXx	Posted - 2008.09.21 07:07:00 - [27] YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH! Titan Industries Technology Team
Gnulpie Minmatar Miner Tech	Posted - 2008.09.21 07:17:00 - [28] Originally by: killerco The person who gives the final blow should be on the killmail and nobody else. That would make no sense. CCP gave us a good system which shows exactly who did how much damage. If corps and alliances do not use that info but instead give always 100% credits even with 1% participation I do not blame CCP in this case (hahah!) but actually those alliances/corps. And I somehow suspect that an "accurate" killboard with proper overview of destroyed/lost isk is not in the interest of most of the alliances.
PsychoBones R.E.C.O.N. A.X.I.S	Posted - 2008.09.21 07:26:00 - [29] I am shocked by this brand new revelation about killboards. This is truly groundbreaking. Did we not have several discussions much like the while discussing the efficiency of the NC vs Trisurgency campaign? R.E.C.O.N. - Helping a soon-to-be defunct alliance failurecascade near you.
Gumpy Nighthawk Amarr Octavian Vanguard RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.09.21 07:28:00 - [30] Originally by: Ethen Bejorn How come RAZOR doesn't have any active campaigns listed on thier killboard? Why don't you make one up and show your effiency versus the GBC? I'd think that would give you your alliances most accurate indication of how your particular alliance is faring in the current hostilities. Yes because active campaigns magically add the losses of our allies that participated. We know by ourselves how we are doing, but it's not a really accurate report, because even though a battle may look like we won with 20/4 but if our allies lost allot more because we had a bad day of participation, then it really is far from accurate. Signature Locked. Please refrain from amending a moderated warning. Navigator

Algey The Littlest Hobos	Posted - 2008.09.21 07:47:00 - [31] What it needs is for someone to code a NAPfest killboard, so that the NC teams kills all show on one side, and the NC losses all show as one side. Reverse that for the GBC napfest and you'd have more reasonable stats. Currently killboards are more amusing than anything else, as very few alliances stand alone ever.
Keeves Minmatar the evil ones Vanguard.	Posted - 2008.09.21 07:58:00 - [32] Only do ops with your alliance? I believe that will fix your problem...
Fearless Kill Garoun Investment Bank	Posted - 2008.09.21 08:01:00 - [33] http://www.eve-razor.com/allykb/?a=home is as close as I have seen to the "NC" killboard for the GBC vs NC fights
Fred0 Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.09.21 08:12:00 - [34] Edited by: Fred0 on 21/09/2008 08:12:36 Originally by: Leuthispar You can make your kb pull stuff from ingame with the API, dont know exactly how it works but karbo's killboards(Tri kb for example) do that, so no matter if your kill/loss mail isnt on another kb to fetch it from it will be posted regardless. Only does it once every few days iirc though. We synch hourly with the other NC killboards. Quote: On another note I browse through a lot of ppl's kbs when im bored at work and I can tell you the reason why a lot of ppl seem to have positive performance on their kb but negative on others is just because they arent posting kms or dont have a tool to post it for them. There's very few entities that don't automatically post both kills and losses nowadays. Quote: I know this will sound biased because im TRI and ur NC but looking at Pure/Razor/Iron/Hydra even Morsus Mihi half of the lossmails and even some killmails are missing. Pick any random engagement and see the kills/losses then go to the enemy's boards and lookup same engagement and you'll see more kms. Wait a couple hours is what I'd suggest or even half a day sometimes. There's alot of lag on generetaing mails in larger engagements aswell. --- "Cutting Edge 4 Life"
KIAEddZ Caldari KIA Corp KIA Alliance	Posted - 2008.09.21 08:29:00 - [35] All kbs must be looked at, and every "sides" totals totted up. For example in Outbreak/Evokes recent campaign vs KIA/Daisho, to get an accurate picture of the combat situation, all 4 kbs must be looked at, totals totted up, and there you should have an accurate view of the stats involved. That said these raw isk stats are skewed by ships not lost in combat etc (KIA lost a JF in empire for example), so alongside those raw stats a need for understanding the combat reports coming back from the front lines is also required.. add all this together, wade through the smack and bullshit, and maybe you'll get a somewhat accurate picture of any combat campaign.. maybe not :) KIA EVE Home KIA in game Public Channel "KIA" KIA are Currently recruiting active PvP minded players. Contact Imperius Blackheart
Niraco79 Gallente Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.09.21 08:32:00 - [36] to actually give a good answer to the op and not into bob/razor e-peen competition lead by coward alts: KB are a tool for internal use and external propaganda. 1. Internal use KB for alliances that have the rule of mandatory post of losses: show the fittings of the guys who lost ships, and make the leaders to whip those who are coming in useless ships or with useless fittings, Show where people take stupid losses (aka not on frontlines) KB for kills show enemy standard fitting line, show a statistical involvement of each enemy alliance, show your own pilots involvement (aka will show if your pilor join the fleet and stay cloaked in a ss not to lose it - i heard from a fellow romanian from NC - i laughed at him for 2 days. not that the true guys who fight in NC do it.it was just an exception so is not intended to be smack) KB in smart hands can be used as internal tools in a miriad ways. i did not write even 10% of those 2. KB for external propaganda. Now here do the math. just read CAOD every day :)
Mihailo Great	Posted - 2008.09.21 08:35:00 - [37] The only efficiency rating that matters to me is member happiness.
Bruce Deorum Minmatar Mythos Corp RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.09.21 08:52:00 - [38] Maybe all people should show up in the KM (for reference reasons) But the actual kill is awarded to the max dmg person (not the final blow cause most of the times this is random). All other guys should get something like a new stat that says "involvement in kill" (like an advanced version of the kills/real kills in pilot stats). But that would affect alliance also.
Adeptus mecanicus The Flaming Sideburn's	Posted - 2008.09.21 09:05:00 - [39] only benefit on campaigns is 2 things, isk vs isk ratio and kills vs kills. yeah both are messy but if you take both in acount on a campaign you get a general picture on how well/bad its going Grunt's
Jenney Federal Noob Mercs	Posted - 2008.09.21 09:10:00 - [40] Originally by: Bruce Deorum OMG. It is the mechanism that should be somewhat different. If 5 people gang one person (or even 5 persons but kill just one of them) all 5 people get a kill whereas only one person gets a loss. If 2 alliances in same gang kill someone both alliances get kill, but if someone is killed only one alliance suffers LOSS. This way all stats (google killboards morsus mihi, bob, razor, etc) always seem better than the truth. Its not that hard to fix this problem one way would be to just have one big killboard for all the power bloc Another way would be to have fraction kills system. So if you have a fleet battle with a mixed alliance fleet on your side like razor,iron MM ect and you get a kill with say 2 razor, 5 mm, 3 iron on it and the kill a Bob BS . Each player would get a 0.1 kill as they helped 10%, then the razor killboard would show 0.2 of a BS kill As your killboard will look a bit odd you can then take the 0.2 of a kill and multiply it by some poins value you give each type of ship or and again for the total value of the ship killed as its the cost thats more important than the syimple number of kills This way you get to see just how much your alliance helped in the big war.

DeadDuck Amarr Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2008.09.21 09:29:00 - [41] If you want to compare results, the best way to compare the evolution of a certain campaign is actually compare the losses for all sides. For you to be able to do it you have to check the reported losses of all involved alliances on their KB. Of course it will have a error margin because all the losses will not be reported. ________________ God is my Wingman
Butter Dog Gallente The Littlest Hobos	Posted - 2008.09.21 10:15:00 - [42] The old ISS killboard was pretty amazing, it was coded specifically for the alliance and was the only completely fair killboard I've ever seen in EVE. I'm sure anyone who remembers how it calculated ISK won/lost would agree with me. (essentially, each pilot on a killmail was allocated a portion of the ISK value of the kill, so that if one ISS pilot was on the KM for a carrier, along with 30 other people from other alliance, it would not count as a whole kill, but 1/30th of a kill) ---------- AKA 'Bitter Dog' Failing at everything he does in EvE since '05
taylor04 Caldari Digital assassins G00DFELLAS	Posted - 2008.09.21 10:37:00 - [43] do i detect more NC crying over nothing... boo f u c k i n g hoooo faill thread
Wap Pie Caldari Oberon Incorporated Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.09.21 10:38:00 - [44] Kill boards are there to show what you kill but like you said if there are 20+ people on 1 kill mail from like 4 alliances that means there are 4 claimed kills. What about just a loss board. Post all losses not with who is on it etc just the loss record and if all alliances do that you know exactly what alliance losses are and coalition losses. -
Faekurias Black Legion Command	Posted - 2008.09.21 10:43:00 - [45] People still care about K/D ration? ------------------ We are recruiting.
Snowcrow Minmatar Lyonesse. KIA Alliance	Posted - 2008.09.21 10:46:00 - [46] the easiest way to make a killboard more accurate is to change the way it works. if 10 ppl kill one target, every involvep player gets 1/10 kill and if those 10 players were from 2 different alliances (6 of alliance A, 4 from Alliance B), Alliance A gets 6/10 kills, Alliance B gets 4/10 kills. same goes for the "killpoints", just divide the ammount of points through the amount of involved players. wouldn't make a killboard 100% accurate but a little bit "closer to the truth" :p
Tom Sellert NAF	Posted - 2008.09.21 10:52:00 - [47] Just use killboards for what they are. Kills! Goto bob kb to see their kills and your kb for your kills. Use your own lossmails to better yourself and nothing else. Regards Tom Sellert Chief of Staff
Butter Dog Gallente The Littlest Hobos	Posted - 2008.09.21 10:55:00 - [48] Originally by: Snowcrow the easiest way to make a killboard more accurate is to change the way it works. if 10 ppl kill one target, every involvep player gets 1/10 kill and if those 10 players were from 2 different alliances (6 of alliance A, 4 from Alliance B), Alliance A gets 6/10 kills, Alliance B gets 4/10 kills. same goes for the "killpoints", just divide the ammount of points through the amount of involved players. wouldn't make a killboard 100% accurate but a little bit "closer to the truth" :p Yes, thats exactly how the old ISS killboard used to work. As I say, the only "fair" killboard I've seen in EVE. But, well, don't underestimate the lure of e-peen ---------- AKA 'Bitter Dog' Failing at everything he does in EvE since '05
Doctor Oda	Posted - 2008.09.21 11:05:00 - [49] personanly I never look at that silly stats stuff as it's not what defines the game. There should be 2 things to think about in this game. 1. Have he achieved our goals. 2. Whats next. di Stats are just stupid and people only look at them to make there loss semm better. If you start talking about did we kill more of them than they did of us it means nothing as if they killed 100 and you killed 200, who won?? them if you only had 100 and they had 201 as they get the loot and cover the loss. Or even. whats worst 1 Mammy or 20 carriers.....depends on if the carriers are insured....But it changes nothing if you loose space as how many ships are taken from the enemy that were burned in the fire sales and no longer on the front line///////////// Any way,,,, Stats are only for stroking peoples egos.
Doctor Oda	Posted - 2008.09.21 11:09:00 - [50] Originally by: KIAEddZ All kbs must be looked at, and every "sides" totals totted up. For example in Outbreak/Evokes recent campaign vs KIA/Daisho, to get an accurate picture of the combat situation, all 4 kbs must be looked at, totals totted up, and there you should have an accurate view of the stats involved. That said these raw isk stats are skewed by ships not lost in combat etc (KIA lost a JF in empire for example), so alongside those raw stats a need for understanding the combat reports coming back from the front lines is also required.. add all this together, wade through the smack and bullshit, and maybe you'll get a somewhat accurate picture of any combat campaign.. maybe not :) Again, pointless. What could it possible show, not who won nor lost. EVE is allabout taking space in 0.0 alliances so losses change noting if you take space. Kill boards are a waist of time imo, they change nothing and are only as true as the people posting them.

Veldya Guristari Freedom Fighters	Posted - 2008.09.21 11:19:00 - [51] CCP should just collect all the information themselves rather than force people to host kill boards which just host the same crap incomplete information.
PsychoBones R.E.C.O.N. A.X.I.S	Posted - 2008.09.21 11:26:00 - [52] Originally by: Butter Dog Originally by: Snowcrow the easiest way to make a killboard more accurate is to change the way it works. if 10 ppl kill one target, every involvep player gets 1/10 kill and if those 10 players were from 2 different alliances (6 of alliance A, 4 from Alliance B), Alliance A gets 6/10 kills, Alliance B gets 4/10 kills. same goes for the "killpoints", just divide the ammount of points through the amount of involved players. wouldn't make a killboard 100% accurate but a little bit "closer to the truth" :p Yes, thats exactly how the old ISS killboard used to work. As I say, the only "fair" killboard I've seen in EVE. But, well, don't underestimate the lure of e-peen The IAC killboard also works like that as well. R.E.C.O.N. - Helping a soon-to-be defunct alliance failurecascade near you.
Kathryn Inara Freelancer Ltd	Posted - 2008.09.21 11:40:00 - [53] I don't believe Hydra ever achieved a higher than 50% efficiency at anything. But that's beating a dead horse...
Dkiler Dkiller Delta Force Corp. CORPVS DELICTI	Posted - 2008.09.21 11:45:00 - [54] Dont know about other Alliances i can only answer for a 98+% for CR1ME and my corp DKILL for 99+% mails posted and yes loss mails also. Besides if i catch anyone not posting he is fined 5Mill per mail and i do check other boards regulary to compair. If you dont post loss mails then whats the point of having one right CRIME http://corpvsdelicti.110mb.com/?a=home DKILL http://corpvsdelicti.110mb.com/DKILL/?a=home
Butter Dog Gallente The Littlest Hobos	Posted - 2008.09.21 11:57:00 - [55] Originally by: Dkiler Dont know about other Alliances i can only answer for a 98+% for CR1ME and my corp DKILL for 99+% mails posted and yes loss mails also. Besides if i catch anyone not posting he is fined 5Mill per mail and i do check other boards regulary to compair. If you dont post loss mails then whats the point of having one right CRIME http://corpvsdelicti.110mb.com/?a=home DKILL http://corpvsdelicti.110mb.com/DKILL/?a=home Congratulations on entirely missing the point of the thread, and proving why killboard stats are so useless - quite a feat. ---------- AKA 'Bitter Dog' Failing at everything he does in EvE since '05
Hey You Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.09.21 12:01:00 - [56] This thread is now complete. Butter dog. KD ratio. Killboard discussion. Only missing Mynas for utter perfection. Good enough for my touch of leetnes for contribution. __________________________________
Amuko Amarr Disturbance Inc.	Posted - 2008.09.21 12:23:00 - [57] You want the truth? You can't handle the truth!
remo man Invicta.	Posted - 2008.09.21 12:29:00 - [58] It's pretty simple, those stats should be taken with a pinch of salt. The further you go from a solo kill the less accurate it will be. You can look at it from a corp perspective and see that when the more people you have on the mail the less it holds a clear representation of what happened, who was responsible for it etc. Only who "shared" the credit for it and who dealt the most damage/got the final is clear, which tells you a limited amount and can potentially distort the reality of the situation. As it is now CCP have brought in the amount of dmg done by each person which is an awesome feature for players and leaders alike. That if anything is what people can analyse and see.."oh hey x corp or y alliance were all at the top/bottom they know what they are doing/haven't got a clue. As for the answer, i don't really think there is any need for one. The current system shows enough (limited) info to be usefull while still allowing the team play aspect of the game to be at the forefront. If you change the system so that its percentage based, you will have alot more people thinking from a self centred view point, which obviously doens't work in a TEAM orientated game, especially at alliance level.
Tonkin D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.09.21 12:59:00 - [59] Edited by: Tonkin on 21/09/2008 12:59:42 Originally by: Bruce Deorum Ok. All alliances, in almost all campaigns, have a positive efficiency, and a positive killed/lost ISK ratio. Something obviously is broken. When an Alliance ship is killed it is part of the losses of the alliance. (100% loss) Whereas when even one alliance ship is involved in a kill (lets say involvement 20% one out of five ships) the alliance gets credit for the kill. So what i have is multiple alliance sharing credit for one kill (or several corps, mechanism is the same) whereas losses are only credited to one corp/alliance. Thats how all stats are fixed up, none of them gives us the real image of the campaign. So the question comes, what can be done, so that KBs give a better picture of the campaigns/wars/ kills-loss ratio? tri killbaord basis its stats off isk damage etc. k/d ratio always been fecked but tbh i dont post on tri kb, api thingy thingy for the corp does it. tri members are lazy and dont post kills makes lots of us emorage quit
Ishamel 1 Omega Fleet Enterprises Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2008.09.21 14:55:00 - [60] Edited by: Ishamel 1 on 21/09/2008 14:56:20 You can get a pretty clear picture off the killboards. You just go to the killboard of the biggest entity in the powerblock involved and take the kills from there. There will be few kills that the largest entity was not involved in, and as killmails are pretty quickly hunted down it should be fairly accurate. Ignore losses from all boards. So for example in a GBC vs NC fight where the NC forces largely comprised of say razor, you would go to the BoB and Razor boards and look at kills, ignoring losses. Its not accurate but gives the clearest indication. Of course this thread was obviously a troll as no-one doesn't know that k/d ratios etc are inaccurate when multiple alliances are involved in each side.

Darklin Eldaris The Illuminati.	Posted - 2008.09.21 17:38:00 - [61] Originally by: Bruce Deorum OMG. Killboards are not Militia Kills, ffs. KBs are something like that (id never though ppl wouldnt be aware of them even in Empire...) http://www.eve-razor.com/killboard/ All Alliances have KBs, and almost all corps. Usually the killmails are being cross posted, so even if i dont post my loss, but my killer posts his kill (even at anothers alliance KB, I cant avoid having another loss. And i go on saying. It is the mechanism that should be somewhat different. If 5 people gang one person (or even 5 persons but kill just one of them) all 5 people get a kill whereas only one person gets a loss. If 2 alliances in same gang kill someone both alliances get kill, but if someone is killed only one alliance suffers LOSS. This way all stats (google killboards morsus mihi, bob, razor, etc) always seem better than the truth. logic is broken. If two different alliances help kill you, they both scored a kill. If you lost one ship, you only took one loss. If one alliance is ganging with another alliance who loses a ship, should both alliances have to take a loss? No, they should not. Each person in this game is responsible for their own ship and whether or not it will be destroyed. Since one character can only belong to one corp/alliance it makes complete sense that they should be the only ones recording the loss. If I go shoot someone from goonfleet does it mean RA has to replace their ship? No. WTS logic.
Bruce Deorum Minmatar Mythos Corp RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.09.21 18:23:00 - [62] In a win situation all are winners. In a loss situation only one is losser. Whatever criteria are used for 1st case should be also used for the second case, which doesnt happen.
codex09 Minmatar Entropy Systems Mining Co.	Posted - 2008.09.22 00:39:00 - [63] I guess the best way to get a good idea of what happened in a fight is to either only go off alliance/corp losses OR try to gauge what has happened by only using the main alliance's KB. (does that sound right? Too early in the damn morning) The worst part of this sort of thing is that some alliance's use this thing to make their corp/alliance look like it is actually more active, or a lot more powerful than they really are. Anyway in the long run I guess it is something that wouldn't be too hard to fix surely, and if KB stats are what you play for then hey if it makes people feel better about themselves it can't be all that bad can it? Use Your Fears To Conquer Your Enemies!?!
Wendat Huron Stellar Solutions	Posted - 2008.09.22 03:04:00 - [64] Quick, someone post an edited killmail with Truth being the victim, I hear Pr0paganda, Slander666, Captain Obvious & Misconception were all in on it. These forums are FUBAR, upgrade this decade!
AIchemist Gallente O.W.N. Corp OWN Alliance	Posted - 2008.09.22 03:50:00 - [65] Just keep RZR posting!!!!!!! between you cent,hep, and two it just gets better and better.
Veldya Guristari Freedom Fighters	Posted - 2008.09.22 03:54:00 - [66] Originally by: Ishamel 1 You can get a pretty clear picture off the killboards. You just go to the killboard of the biggest entity in the powerblock involved and take the kills from there. There will be few kills that the largest entity was not involved in, and as killmails are pretty quickly hunted down it should be fairly accurate. Ignore losses from all boards. So for example in a GBC vs NC fight where the NC forces largely comprised of say razor, you would go to the BoB and Razor boards and look at kills, ignoring losses. Its not accurate but gives the clearest indication. Of course this thread was obviously a troll as no-one doesn't know that k/d ratios etc are inaccurate when multiple alliances are involved in each side. Yep, this is the truth because in fleet battles and I am talking lagged to shit fleet battles EVE will often generate kill mails but not lossmails. I often don't get lossmail in the laggy fights but always get killmails.
Maverick 52 Fusion Enterprises Ltd Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2008.09.22 05:10:00 - [67] I find the best way to judge performance is by looking at the Battle Summaries. That lets you tell a fleets makeup, size, and efficiency versus their opponents. If a 20 man gang(A) went up against a 30 man gang(B), gang A lost 10 ships and gang B lost 25, clearly gang A was capable of killing more of the other gang. This makes it likely that they held the field, and were able to loot/salvage. Looking at the losses, if gang A was made up of T2 rigged out HACs/Recons/HIC's, and gang B was made up of T1 fitted Battlecruisers and Cruisers, we know that gang B were able to cause more ISK damage to their opponent. Who won the fight? Depends on what the goal was. If the goal was to gank some people and to send their ISK up in flames, Gang B likely feels they won. If Gang A's goal was to WTFPWN Gang B no matter what, Gang A feels they won. Either way being able to look at the numbers, ships, fittings, kills/losses lets you decide if the outcome was good or bad. Crediting people with fractions of kills based purely on the number of people on the kill mail isn't the correct way to achieve this balance you want. What happens when that nano pilot catches a ratting carrier in a belt and keeps it tackled for 10 minutes while a gang hustles to kill it? He gets 1/20 of the credit for doing the most important part? If you want to look at KB stats to judge performance, you have to try a little harder than a quick total of Kills to Losses. It's just going to be that way until you have a central KB where you can assign all alliances involved to a side of the campaign, then losses are displayed for each alliance or totaled up. Like it's been said before, you can still monitor all sides involved and watch that loss column for a accurate assessment if you want, a central KB just makes life easier.
Twoside Gallente Thundercats RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.09.22 06:08:00 - [68] Originally by: AIchemist Just keep RZR posting!!!!!!! between you cent,hep, and two it just gets better and better. We aim to please :) Furthermore, LOL Mythos :P
Lieutenant Obvious Caldari Thundercats RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.09.22 10:00:00 - [69] Originally by: Wendat Huron Quick, someone post an edited killmail with Truth being the victim, I hear Pr0paganda, Slander666, Captain Obvious & Misconception were all in on it. I'm getting a promotion?
128th ABC123 Eve Liberation Force Liberty.	Posted - 2008.09.22 10:33:00 - [70] Originally by: Energon Avenger IAC killboard is the best! Its API run, so i dont know wtf you are talking about, but apparently youve just heard some people talk about iac and thought you would join the happy parade? stfu troll

Varrakk Phantom Squad Axiom Empire	Posted - 2008.09.22 11:38:00 - [71] First, all involved alliances gotta use API (I suspect it still isnt flawless and killmails not generated) After that, NC can start a sync feed to GBC. Then we might get a accurate k/l ratio. But the isk value will be off since so many killmails end up blank
Karbowiak Caldari coracao ardente Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.09.22 13:37:00 - [72] Edited by: Karbowiak on 22/09/2008 13:39:21 how much pot did you smoke before you came to the conclution that the current killboards make everyone look like a winner?!.. :P However its not all about that, killboard ratios DO drop and RISE depending on how much damage is done. Ive seen it before many times that effeciency drops below 50% (which is bad in general) - many killboards get around this by making losses on capitals (moms and titans espcially) worth 0isk - so they effectively count as 0.. (GAME-OVER lost their Titan, and ZakMa then set the Titan price worth 0 isk, so Requiem's overall effeciency wasn't below 60% for example.. This was AFTER i emoraged and deleted everything :P) Some also artificially make their stats better by posting Sisi super cap kills (yee, i spent 2 weeks deleting a mail posted by Razor - where they killed a CCP Titan.. Plus there was a D00M guy on it so the Tri board kept syncing it) So - yes and no, killboards show the true fact - aslong as we all are willingly to leave our killboards open to the public (AND NOT DISABLE THE FEED RIGHT HYDRA?!) LONG LIVE CONCRETE! Free Killboard Hosting Service
Ryuga VonRhaiden Caldari Insurgent New Eden Tribe Systematic-Chaos	Posted - 2008.09.22 16:51:00 - [73] the only thing that would make killboards "fair" should be a system based on points/ISKs divided by alliances basing on partecipation, as suggested, and roughly weighted by shipclass deployed (so, if 30 people were shooting at a carrier, and there were 5 dreadnoughts from alliance A and 25 light/medium support by alliance B, the alliance A would still hold a greater chunk of points/ISK damage). it should not matter really who did more damage (as ewar and tackling do no damage but they are still very important), but who deployed what ships, as the alliance fielding better ships should be better "rewarded" by the system as it risked more and were more useful. a rook and a blackbird could still appear on every killmail in a battle, but the rook was certainly more effective at doing its duty (except if the pilot was totally dumb using wrong ECM types, but that kind of things is hard to track on a killboard), so it should get a greater chunk of points/ISKs... Do not try and find the signature... that's impossible. Instead only try to realize the truth... There is no signature.
Rajere No Trademark Notoriety Alliance	Posted - 2008.09.22 17:08:00 - [74] Quote: Dont know about other Alliances i can only answer for a 98+% for CR1ME and my corp DKILL for 99+% mails posted and yes loss mails also. Besides if i catch anyone not posting he is fined 5Mill per mail and i do check other boards regulary to compair. If you dont post loss mails then whats the point of having one right CRIME http://corpvsdelicti.110mb.com/?a=home DKILL http://corpvsdelicti.110mb.com/DKILL/?a=home Not to derail or call you out or anything, but do you consider pods as killmails that are required to be posted? I see a few pod and newb ship kills/losses but I see alot of pods missing. Actually a better question, is "modro" still a corp in your alliance? They seem to be the #1 culprit for not posting losses. If Modro is still in your alliance you need to charge them 85mil isk for unposted losses, 45 if you exclude pod mails. Here are losses that are not posted on your alliance killboard: Pods: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 Cruisers: 9 10 11 12 13 14 Destroyers: 15 Frigs: 16 17 Hauler: (was Vengence of the Fallen) 18 Here is a kill you were missing, but it was another alliance who got the mail and you probably aren't sync'd with them. The player on this mail is also in modro. Missing Kill: 1 Again not trying to start anything or call you out (wish there was a pm option), but our corp never really fought you guys in the brief time we were in that area and you're missing half of our kills against you. I didn't bother comparing newbship mails and honestly don't care if you post newbship/pod losses or not, just letting you know in case you do. We required every kill/loss including newb ships to be posted, to maintain our kb integrity. Anything that could show up as a kill on another kb was required to be posted as a loss on ours, because all it takes is 1 missed lossmail to discredit all your work maintaining the kb/enforcing your policies. We also frequently posted pure NPC losses so we could make fun of ppl in our corp who lost faction BSes while carebearing, but that's another subject :) Doesn't matter much anymore except for historical data, but when everyone claims they post 100% of their losses or close to it when they really don't, it dilutes the value of our claims, & our efforts to back them up. Kills you have less control over if you're group isn't the one who got the killmail, and as for your corp itself you're spot on. But other corps in your Alliance you have less control of, and if they won't use api, you shouldn't make any claims on behalf of your alliance's kb accuracy. How to Fail at Eve
Jehovah Cooper H A V O C The Cadre.	Posted - 2008.09.22 17:29:00 - [75] Wow a useful thread in CAOD, and its getting all crapped up. Surprise. I know this will just be lost in the noise but we actually have a legitimate question to tackle and some decent suggestions. Suggestions I've seen: 1. Have a power-block killboard that synchs BOTH kills and LOSSES and from all participants. This ensures that each kill is counted once and each loss counted once. 2. The ISS system - which basically gave you points for the kill based on the number of participants on the mail with you - the more participants the fewer you got. Your loss was always the full amount of course (you actually had to be a good pvper to be positive on this board). Could be combined with 3: 3. Assign points based on damage dealt percentage (which will always tot up to 100%, assuring that a kill is not counted multiple times across different boards). All of these are do-able. In the case of solution #1, most alliances already synch with all the powerblock they just don't synch their allies' losses - they only get kills and only those kills which they participated in. Changes to synch code and giving people options to synch all the kills would be possible but of course it would create a lot more traffic and demand on the database especially if everyone uses it on individual alliance boards instead of picking a central hub. #2 or #3 could just be added to the current killboard stats. It won't give such a complete story as #1 could but at least wouldn't so wildly overstate everyone's efficiency and it wouldn't impose any additional server or network traffic. So, killboard devs, go do it! :P
Greckor Monmouth THE FINAL STAND	Posted - 2008.09.22 18:10:00 - [76] if you need a KB to tell you how good/bad you are doing, then your doing something wrong.
Rajere No Trademark Notoriety Alliance	Posted - 2008.09.22 18:11:00 - [77] Quote: 2. The ISS system - which basically gave you points for the kill based on the number of participants on the mail with you - the more participants the fewer you got. Your loss was always the full amount of course (you actually had to be a good pvper to be positive on this board). Could be combined with 3: In case you didn't realize, the current killboards already do this. Anyone running the eve-dev kb (which is practically everyone in the game, minus those few hold outs still on griefwatch) has a thing called Kill Points (and Loss Points). Both are calculated based on ship types, number of participants, etc. Go to any eve-dev killboard and click on the about link: Quote: If enabled, every kill is assigned a point value. Based on the shiptype destroyed, and the number and types of ships involved in the kill, the number of points indicates the difficulty of the kill... As a result, a gank will get a lot less points awarded than a kill in a small engagement. How to Fail at Eve
Jehovah Cooper H A V O C The Cadre.	Posted - 2008.09.22 18:39:00 - [78] Originally by: Rajere Quote: If enabled, every kill is assigned a point value. Based on the shiptype destroyed, and the number and types of ships involved in the kill, the number of points indicates the difficulty of the kill... As a result, a gank will get a lot less points awarded than a kill in a small engagement. These aren't used for campaigns or efficiency calculations though, which is what you'd need to address the OP. Also is the total killpoints from a kill always the same amount? If a solo kill of some ship is worth 1000 points, if 5 people kill the same ship do they all get 200? It doesn't seem this strict to me just from looking at totals on our killboard.
Cupdeez Out of Order	Posted - 2008.09.22 19:08:00 - [79] I will tell you the quick and easy solution to this.. Using the North as an Example but applies to all alliances with friends. Example: The norther nap happy people said why do we have 10 alliances all napped why don't we all come together and make 1 large alliance? This will never happen because everyone thinks they can do it better.. Hints the reson for 130983 5-100 man corps in EVE. If the north actually came together and made 1 super large alliance they would probably do better verse BOB but that will never happen. LETS JUST BE BLUE! I personally think EVE should make it so you can't set anyone blue.. If they are not in your alliance\Corp you can't see if they are so called friends. I would think this would limit the size of gangs and people bloobing systems with so called friends.


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