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FW isn't a pet project anymore.

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Megan Maynard Minmatar 17th Minmatar Tactical Wing	Posted - 2008.09.19 23:26:00 - [1] I'm opening up this discussion again because I'm an ornery bastard and I'm really liking FW. The NOTION, that FW is a beginning step for new or inexperienced players to get into pvp is utter non-sense. It needs to stop. The adjustment period for a new player, that actively goes out and tries to learn basic pvp is 1-2 weeks depending on how thick their skull is. There are many many many experienced pvp'ers that have taken up the cause to go to war. ONE, it's in low sec so no bubbles. TWO, it's a free 24/7 war. It is absolute rubbish that FW missions do absolutely nothing. Change them or just get rid of them. Many of us are tired of explaining to new guys why you should NEVER do FW missions. Is that clear? Experienced players are telling new guys not to bother with it. That means it's broke plain and simple. Why do we have to wander in the dark to take over a system? We don't have to shoot a ship and wait and hope that it blows up after a while. The current, systems light up when they are contested, map is crap. It sucks. It blows. It's terrible. WE WANT SOMETHING BETTER. Ranks, whatever. I really could care less if someone gets something for a rank, blah blah blah. They are cool to have that is it. Comment accordingly if you think different. A neutral assisting a war target should immediately be flagged to an enemy militia. A neutral in a war site should be fair game as well. It's a freaking war zone not a station. I'm tired of having our pilots take Concord sec hits just to kill the neutral domi repping a war target. It's NOT balanced and the RP alliances are taking advantage of their "neutral" status. (CLEARLY they are not neutral if they are directly repping a WT.) Alliance stuff is another matter, I'm referring to basic mechanics here. Some blaring problems across the board that seriously need to be fixed before this FW thing goes anywhere else.
Megan Maynard Minmatar 17th Minmatar Tactical Wing	Posted - 2008.09.19 23:26:00 - [2] I'm opening up this discussion again because I'm an ornery bastard and I'm really liking FW. The NOTION, that FW is a beginning step for new or inexperienced players to get into pvp is utter non-sense. It needs to stop. The adjustment period for a new player, that actively goes out and tries to learn basic pvp is 1-2 weeks depending on how thick their skull is. There are many many many experienced pvp'ers that have taken up the cause to go to war. ONE, it's in low sec so no bubbles. TWO, it's a free 24/7 war. It is absolute rubbish that FW missions do absolutely nothing. Change them or just get rid of them. Many of us are tired of explaining to new guys why you should NEVER do FW missions. Is that clear? Experienced players are telling new guys not to bother with it. That means it's broke plain and simple. Why do we have to wander in the dark to take over a system? We don't have to shoot a ship and wait and hope that it blows up after a while. The current, systems light up when they are contested, map is crap. It sucks. It blows. It's terrible. WE WANT SOMETHING BETTER. Ranks, whatever. I really could care less if someone gets something for a rank, blah blah blah. They are cool to have that is it. Comment accordingly if you think different. A neutral assisting a war target should immediately be flagged to an enemy militia. A neutral in a war site should be fair game as well. It's a freaking war zone not a station. I'm tired of having our pilots take Concord sec hits just to kill the neutral domi repping a war target. It's NOT balanced and the RP alliances are taking advantage of their "neutral" status. (CLEARLY they are not neutral if they are directly repping a WT.) Alliance stuff is another matter, I'm referring to basic mechanics here. Some blaring problems across the board that seriously need to be fixed before this FW thing goes anywhere else.
Jacob Mei	Posted - 2008.09.19 23:34:00 - [3] Get some Cheese, you already have enough Whine. -------------------------------- To borrow a phrase: Players who post are like stars, there are bright ones and those who are dim.
Jacob Mei	Posted - 2008.09.19 23:34:00 - [4] Get some Cheese, you already have enough Whine. -------------------------------- To borrow a phrase: Players who post are like stars, there are bright ones and those who are dim.
Megan Maynard Minmatar 17th Minmatar Tactical Wing	Posted - 2008.09.19 23:36:00 - [5] Originally by: Jacob Mei Get some Cheese, you already have enough Whine. Screw the cheese I have this: MUG
Megan Maynard Minmatar 17th Minmatar Tactical Wing	Posted - 2008.09.19 23:36:00 - [6] Originally by: Jacob Mei Get some Cheese, you already have enough Whine. Screw the cheese I have this: MUG
Vaal Erit Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2008.09.19 23:40:00 - [7] Don't forget the neutral noob ship alts everywhere and the super easy spying. Neutral repping ships are used in high sec wars and low sec stuff. All of the aforementioned problems are problems in 0.0 and low sec and other gameplay areas. I would say that FW sure teaches people a lot about game mechanics. Originally by: Megan Maynard The NOTION, that FW is a beginning step for new or inexperienced players to get into pvp is utter non-sense. You don't want FW to be a stepping stone or do you feel newbies aren't learning anything under current mechanics? -- http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html
Vaal Erit Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2008.09.19 23:40:00 - [8] Don't forget the neutral noob ship alts everywhere and the super easy spying. Neutral repping ships are used in high sec wars and low sec stuff. All of the aforementioned problems are problems in 0.0 and low sec and other gameplay areas. I would say that FW sure teaches people a lot about game mechanics. Originally by: Megan Maynard The NOTION, that FW is a beginning step for new or inexperienced players to get into pvp is utter non-sense. You don't want FW to be a stepping stone or do you feel newbies aren't learning anything under current mechanics? -- http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2008.09.19 23:42:00 - [9] Originally by: Vaal Erit Originally by: Megan Maynard The NOTION, that FW is a beginning step for new or inexperienced players to get into pvp is utter non-sense. You don't want FW to be a stepping stone or do you feel newbies aren't learning anything under current mechanics? c) Experienced people join / stick with FW alongside the noobs as it is their preferred PvP style. - DesuSigs
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2008.09.19 23:42:00 - [10] Originally by: Vaal Erit Originally by: Megan Maynard The NOTION, that FW is a beginning step for new or inexperienced players to get into pvp is utter non-sense. You don't want FW to be a stepping stone or do you feel newbies aren't learning anything under current mechanics? c) Experienced people join / stick with FW alongside the noobs as it is their preferred PvP style. - DesuSigs
Nova Fox Gallente Novafox Shipyards	Posted - 2008.09.19 23:53:00 - [11] FW is still developing and growing stop declaring something dead before its stopped growing. Pre Order your Sisters of Eve ship today!!!
Nova Fox Gallente Novafox Shipyards	Posted - 2008.09.19 23:53:00 - [12] FW is still developing and growing stop declaring something dead before its stopped growing. Pre Order your Sisters of Eve ship today!!!
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2008.09.20 00:09:00 - [13] you just highlighted all the reason it IS a way to learn PvP.
Bast's Cleric Amarr 24th Imperial Reserves	Posted - 2008.09.20 00:20:00 - [14] Originally by: Megan Maynard A neutral assisting a war target should immediately be flagged to an enemy militia. A neutral in a war site should be fair game as well. It's a freaking war zone not a station. I'm tired of having our pilots take Concord sec hits just to kill the neutral domi repping a war target. It's NOT balanced and the RP alliances are taking advantage of their "neutral" status. (CLEARLY they are not neutral if they are directly repping a WT.) Instead of Complaining about it, why not convince the RP alliances on your side of the war to do the same thing? Oh wait, You tried and they left you Hanging. I'm sorry for your loss. - Logistics Frigates
Kazuma Saruwatari Caldari	Posted - 2008.09.20 00:26:00 - [15] Why'd you think I dont participate in an obviously broken game mechanic? -
The Jackhammer Wolf Tactical Solutions	Posted - 2008.09.20 00:27:00 - [16] Originally by: Nova Fox FW is still developing and growing stop declaring something dead before its stopped growing. ITs Dying. Check the membership trend for each militia ... they are DOWN greatly from the start and still falling daily: CLICKY This should be a RED FLAG to CCP that their baby is broken. We left FW and here are a few reasons ... 1. Didn't EVEN get deeply into missioning. RISK -vs- REWARD sucked ... love traveling 10 jumps for a mission and get GARBAGE isk / GARBAGE loyalty points 2. BLOB warfare the first few weeks was a problem but as people started to flee FW ... It got way better. THEN when a few key corps left our enemy (minmatar) ... you couldn't barely even get a fight. 3. CCP seemed to switch the rules after the first few weeks. Amarr lost quite a few systems right away ... switched the rules governing how hard it was to conquer systems WHICH made it harder for us to get them back AFTER we had already lost them via the old system. SO we had been at a disadvantage from then on. 4. TOO much neutral interference ... swaying the way the tides of war went. 5. Leaving out alliances was a bad move ... especially to the role-players ... BECAUSE ... they went on and got involved reguardless. Probably more bitterly because of the fact they were left out. So essentially ***ing off that player base. 6. Conquering systems sucked. MORE lame zombie work than mining. SCAN a plex .. then sit on a timer while killing NPC rats if you were lucky ... otherwise watching your home team rats fly around. KILLING NPC rats .. for NO isk/reward. Capturing plex for BASICALLY no reward 7. A RANK for your EPEEN and NOTHING ELSE. Which last patch was even taken away from everyone's view besides yourself. IN SHORT: Faction Warfare as a gateway to PVP and/or 0.0 ... i guess so ... but take a hard look in another month ... all that will be left are 90% noobs ... 9% Die Hard Roleplayers ... 1% alts for people as a distraction from their regular play. GRADE: Added Play Content: B- Added Game Fun: Noob: B+ Joe Average Player: C Beta Players: F+ Faction Warfare NEEDS alot of work ... Good try PS: Lets hope they square away FW and/or lag problems before they start shoving amublation down our throats Thank-You, The Jackhammer Banners and Signatures by: Kalen Vox*
Becq Starforged Minmatar Ship Construction Services Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.09.20 01:02:00 - [17] Wait a minute ... let's go over this bit about neutral remote reppers not being flagged... Are you telling me that I'm allowed to remote rep a militia member and if anyone attacks me the gate guns will shoot them? That they will get flagged to members of my alliance for shooting me with no provocation? That I'll be able to jump through a gate any time but they can't? And if the above is true, that none of it is considered an exploit? Tell me more... -- Becq Starforged Ushra'Khan The Flame of Freedom Burns On!
Vaal Erit Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2008.09.20 01:25:00 - [18] Oh, in that case I totally agree that FW needs a boost patch. By the own Devs admission, FW wasn't released as they wanted it, many features were left out like rewards and ranks. FW is fun, but lacks the depth and meaning that 0.0 warfare has. I mentioned this while FW was on SiSi, when it was released and I will reiterate it now. Please finish FW, CCP. -- http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html
Nova Fox Gallente Novafox Shipyards	Posted - 2008.09.20 01:37:00 - [19] Originally by: The Jackhammer Stuff CCPs new way of doing things introduce prenerfed then boost or youd been missing out on alot of things ccps put in and been treating things lately. Pre Order your Sisters of Eve ship today!!!
Angelic Orange Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.09.20 01:40:00 - [20] Originally by: Becq Starforged Wait a minute ... let's go over this bit about neutral remote reppers not being flagged... Are you telling me that I'm allowed to remote rep a militia member and if anyone attacks me the gate guns will shoot them? That they will get flagged to members of my alliance for shooting me with no provocation? That I'll be able to jump through a gate any time but they can't? And if the above is true, that none of it is considered an exploit? Tell me more... I was wondering that as well. In highces when you rep someone that is a war target you become a target as well. Could they of really screwed up FW that much?
Megan Maynard Minmatar 17th Minmatar Tactical Wing	Posted - 2008.09.20 01:48:00 - [21] Biggest beef is still not having a good way to see how the systems Victory points work. That way i could see how ACTIVELY how much the minmatar don't plex.
SoftRevolution	Posted - 2008.09.20 01:51:00 - [22] Edited by: SoftRevolution on 20/09/2008 01:53:29 What is the point of plexing? I still don't understand why I would. I got Lieutenant Defender or something tonight and my reaction was "Gosh, that was dull."
Megan Maynard Minmatar 17th Minmatar Tactical Wing	Posted - 2008.09.20 01:51:00 - [23] And another thing, if you really think the militia's are full of a bunch of noobs you are sadly mistaken. The die hards are the only ones left on the minny side, the noobs left weeks ago.
Dextrome	Posted - 2008.09.20 02:01:00 - [24] Yeah rewards would be nice, like getting LPs for taking plexes and systems.
Cpt Branko Surge.	Posted - 2008.09.20 02:23:00 - [25] Originally by: The Jackhammer ITs Dying. Awesome. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
ShardowRhino Caldari Legion 0f The Damned	Posted - 2008.09.20 03:17:00 - [26] Gotta admit i like part of the post here. I have to agree with the OP that neutrals entering a FW plex should be flagged to all militia members on both sides of the conflict. CCP should change this aspect of FW. In fact they should force neutral players to click "okay" to sign away their neutrality when choosing to enter a "war zone". It doesn't make much sense that these players are choosing to enter such an area and get a form of immunity. Personally when I'm in a FW plex and I see a neutral enter I'm firing. But the sec hit does suck. These players are effectively choosing to interfere. This is somewhat similar to a neutral entering a contested 0.0 system. The neutral is neutral to both warring parties making him fair game. FW plexes should effectively be pockets of 0.0 space as far as neutrals are concerned, podding included for free. It would also help reduce some spying that takes place. Not much but im sure no one will really argue that they would refuse such a fraction. As for the idea that FW is a stepping stone for some players into different types of pvp is fine. However people shouldn't view it as just that. I've gone from wardecs in empire,to lowsec to 0.0 alliance warfare,back to wardecs and finally found what i want. That is FW and how the fighting is done. Its how i think eve should have been to start. Wardecs,pirating,alliances are all good options ,so is FW as it gives players another choice in how to play eve. I've found what suits me best which is different from some i know,so be it. Enjoy the game how you want
Daan Sai Polytrope	Posted - 2008.09.20 03:34:00 - [27] Originally by: The Jackhammer We left FW and here are a few reasons ... 1. Didn't EVEN get deeply into missioning. RISK -vs- REWARD sucked ... love traveling 10 jumps for a mission and get GARBAGE isk / GARBAGE loyalty points Hate to say we told you so CCP, but really, all the experienced missioners testing on SiSi told you this during testing as well. The fundamental reason is the now out of date strategy of the mission rewards auto balancer, which starts with low rewards and then adjusts the returns as stats on completion times etc come in. This may have worked fine way back when all missions were new, but now there are far better missions already established that the new missions need to compete with. A possible solition to these and any other new missions is to: 1) Start new missions with rewards that are probably too high to the begin with and let them fall into line, not too low and let them die... This rewards early adopters and encourages completion in early days. 2) Include a factor for refused missions and non-completed missions, not just completed mission stats in the auto balancer. Apart from the famous lvl5 LP bug, these two changes would have helped lvl5 mission uptake, FW mission uptake and the popularity of the new and upcoming mission content being worked on by the new Atlanta group. my 2c Daan
notaforumalt Minmatar Pator Tech School	Posted - 2008.09.20 06:06:00 - [28] Originally by: Jacob Mei Get some Cheese, you already have enough Whine. squints i think hes drinking prune juice. __________________________________________________ this is my sig, and i am not an alt hides
Eran Laude Gallente The Aduro Protocol	Posted - 2008.09.20 07:22:00 - [29] As a most-time plexer, some-time PvPer [when I can be arsed to fly with the militia these days], the current victory points system is rubbish. How hard would it be to have a page on the militia office with percentage scales of how far gone each contested system is? I'm guessing not very FW needs fixing, end of story. If EA 1.2 doesn't fix it, it will virtually die. Even with 4.something thousand people in the Gallente militia and 5.something thousand Caldari, it's getting harder and harder to find a good fight on our front now. Note that those figures are also down from a 5.8K and 7.5K high.
Haks'he Lirky Burning Bright Inc.	Posted - 2008.09.20 08:03:00 - [30] Edited by: Haks''he Lirky on 20/09/2008 08:04:32 My problem with FW is the total lack of focus and a total lack of any clear results. Sure, over time we can take over systems, but this is only for bragging rights or something. There is no life in these systems, there is no reason to actually fight over them. Why not upgrade the minerals in the FW systems? I am not sure if anyone can survive long enough to actually mine the minerals, but at least the temptation would be there. Why not upgrade belt rats, alot? Why should FW combatants not be able to go into enemy space and blow up enemy NPC miners? (similar to the mineral drops in 0.0), this would create a clear logistical reason to control a pipe or at least control one system for a while. I agree with the OP, the simple mechanics need to be fixed, but I am absoloutely not agreeing with the line from CCP that FW should be PVP for PVP sakes. Make these FW regions come alive with some meaning and profit (does not need to be on the same level as 0.0 profit or even empire profit), creating life in these systems will create meaning, meaning will create clear objectives.

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