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How to deal with Isk Sellers

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Alz Shado Ever Flow	Posted - 2008.09.23 15:56:00 - [1] How to Deal with Isk Sellers, by Mark Jacobs (an excerpt from here) Originally by: Mark Jacobs We donÆt wait and let them stay in the game and ban them en-masse, my guys ban their useless, time-consuming butts right away. We have a strike team whose sole job it is to get these guys off our servers as quickly as possible. You're doing it right. //// ---------=== []= ---------=== \\\\ Rifter(RedBad) "Kill a man one is a murderer; kill a million, a conqueror; kill them all, a God." -- Jean Rostand
Niccolado Starwalker Shadow Templars	Posted - 2008.09.23 16:12:00 - [2] Edited by: Niccolado Starwalker on 23/09/2008 16:15:46 Originally by: Alz Shado How to Deal with Isk Sellers, by Mark Jacobs (an excerpt from here) Originally by: Mark Jacobs We donÆt wait and let them stay in the game and ban them en-masse, my guys ban their useless, time-consuming butts right away. We have a strike team whose sole job it is to get these guys off our servers as quickly as possible. You're doing it right. A better way is to IP block whole China! I have read from a dozen magazines now that 80% of the worlds ISK sellers come from China! This is simply plain fact! I cant remember what numbers of isk farmers/sellers we are speaking here, but I think it was more then like 100k farmers on MMOG world basis! If not much much more!! so yes! IP block the whole country. Create a superwall just like the chinese government do against their own. And keep it there until things the numbers have changed to like 20% sellers and 80% players in other online games! Maybe they can proxy around it, I dunno, but hopefully that can be stopped too. Originally by: Dianabolic Your tears are absolutely divine, like a fine fine wine, rolling down your cheeks until they flow down the river of LOL
Jethro Jechonias Ki Tech Industries	Posted - 2008.09.23 16:15:00 - [3] Originally by: Niccolado Starwalker A better way is to IP block whole China! Right, because we don't want any legitimate customers from China on our server, and the IT staff at the farming sweat shops lack the basic compitence to set up a proxy to bipass the filter.
RaTTuS BIG Libertas Fidelitas	Posted - 2008.09.23 16:16:00 - [4] Originally by: Niccolado Starwalker A better way is to IP block whole China! I have read from a dozen magazines now that 80% of the worlds ISK sellers come from China! This is simply plain fact! you read wrong -- BIG Lottery, BIG Deal, InEve
AT Reynolds Gallente Rockafeller Industries	Posted - 2008.09.23 16:19:00 - [5] Quote: How to Deal with Isk Sellers Track them down and kill them?
Niccolado Starwalker Shadow Templars	Posted - 2008.09.23 16:19:00 - [6] Edited by: Niccolado Starwalker on 23/09/2008 16:21:47 Originally by: Jethro Jechonias Originally by: Niccolado Starwalker A better way is to IP block whole China! Right, because we don't want any legitimate customers from China on our server, and the IT staff at the farming sweat shops lack the basic compitence to set up a proxy to bipass the filter. Nope. Its time to take a stand against this kind of crime before it gets larger then it allready is! A few magazines I have read who have looked into it - it have been linked aplenty here in EVE earlier! - shows numbers that close to 80% of the playerbase are looking for ways of earning and selling gold. Just as the blogger which the OP links to I am tired of ISK farmers and their business. It destroys the game. Originally by: Wikipedia - see link According to estimates, around 100,000 people in China are employed as gold farmers, as of December 2005.[1] Chinese gold farmers typically work twelve hour shifts, and sometimes up to eighteen hour shifts. Wages depend heavily on location and the size of the gold-farming company. One gold-farming operation in Chongqing in central China with 23 gold farmers was reported to pay its employees the equivalent of about 120 U.S. dollars per month, while workers at a larger gold farm in Fuzhou earn the equivalent of about 250 U.S. dollars per month. The rising prevalence of gold farming has led to the creation of gold-farm brokerages. There are gold farmers or gold farms in other countries as well, such as the Philippines, Indonesia, and Mexico. However, they do not approach the scope and scale of the Chinese farm industry. Wikipedia Originally by: Dianabolic Your tears are absolutely divine, like a fine fine wine, rolling down your cheeks until they flow down the river of LOL
Jethro Jechonias Ki Tech Industries	Posted - 2008.09.23 16:28:00 - [7] Originally by: Niccolado Starwalker Nope. Its time to take a stand against this kind of crime before it gets larger then it allready is! Blocking IP addresses doesn't help. IP addresses can be spoofed and proxied with great ease by those who care to do so.
Niccolado Starwalker Shadow Templars	Posted - 2008.09.23 16:33:00 - [8] Originally by: Jethro Jechonias Originally by: Niccolado Starwalker Nope. Its time to take a stand against this kind of crime before it gets larger then it allready is! Blocking IP addresses doesn't help. IP addresses can be spoofed and proxied with great ease by those who care to do so. What about some kind of a firewall? Im sure it has to be possible. The chinese filters out a huge part of the worlds internet traffic towards china. I am sure CCP can block access from china to their servers. Honestly I am bloody tired as hell seeing and hearing about systems with up to a hundred mining ships doing mining ops or hauling or whatever they do! Banning accounts have proved futile. The trade is growing all the time! IF we are serious about stopping it, we need a more "firepower!" Originally by: Dianabolic Your tears are absolutely divine, like a fine fine wine, rolling down your cheeks until they flow down the river of LOL
Kuar Z'thain Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.09.23 16:42:00 - [9] Originally by: Niccolado Starwalker Originally by: Jethro Jechonias Originally by: Niccolado Starwalker Nope. Its time to take a stand against this kind of crime before it gets larger then it allready is! Blocking IP addresses doesn't help. IP addresses can be spoofed and proxied with great ease by those who care to do so. What about some kind of a firewall? Im sure it has to be possible. The chinese filters out a huge part of the worlds internet traffic towards china. I am sure CCP can block access from china to their servers. Honestly I am bloody tired as hell seeing and hearing about systems with up to a hundred mining ships doing mining ops or hauling or whatever they do! Banning accounts have proved futile. The trade is growing all the time! IF we are serious about stopping it, we need a more "firepower!" You really need to drop the Chinese = Farmer shit. And trust the Network Admins when they say that IP-Block filtering is a horribly stupid idea.
Niccolado Starwalker Shadow Templars	Posted - 2008.09.23 16:55:00 - [10] Edited by: Niccolado Starwalker on 23/09/2008 16:55:31 Originally by: Kuar Z'thain Originally by: Niccolado Starwalker Originally by: Jethro Jechonias Originally by: Niccolado Starwalker Nope. Its time to take a stand against this kind of crime before it gets larger then it allready is! Blocking IP addresses doesn't help. IP addresses can be spoofed and proxied with great ease by those who care to do so. What about some kind of a firewall? Im sure it has to be possible. The chinese filters out a huge part of the worlds internet traffic towards china. I am sure CCP can block access from china to their servers. Honestly I am bloody tired as hell seeing and hearing about systems with up to a hundred mining ships doing mining ops or hauling or whatever they do! Banning accounts have proved futile. The trade is growing all the time! IF we are serious about stopping it, we need a more "firepower!" You really need to drop the Chinese = Farmer shit. And trust the Network Admins when they say that IP-Block filtering is a horribly stupid idea. I will drop it when all research proves that the majority of sellers are not anymore from China. Plenty of research confirms it. And so do Wikipedia, for what that is worth. Im sorry, I dont like it any more then you putting a tag on group of people, but honestly, if the majority of isk sellers where norwegian, I would not hesitate using the same terms against my native countrymen! I did not learn all that much during my time in the millitary a long time ago, but one thing I remember: if you are fighting a war, ensure you are using maximum firepower you have available to you! And the smartest and best tactics! Originally by: Dianabolic Your tears are absolutely divine, like a fine fine wine, rolling down your cheeks until they flow down the river of LOL
Kuar Z'thain Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.09.23 17:02:00 - [11] Originally by: Niccolado Starwalker I did not learn all that much during my time in the millitary a long time ago, but one thing I remember: if you are fighting a war, ensure you are using maximum firepower you have available to you! And the smartest and best tactics! So.... you want to carpet-bomb that village over there cause it's .05% infested with insurgents? Maybe we need some smarter tactics.....
Akkarin Pagan Minmatar Raddick Explorations BlackWater.	Posted - 2008.09.23 17:04:00 - [12] Originally by: Niccolado Starwalker Rabid Racism So by your logic, if your next door neighbour kills someone you should get locked up too, cos you live near him??? Akkarin I don't mean to sound bitter and twisted, but I am, so that's how it comes out. <3 - Immy
Faife Minmatar Kinda'Shujaa	Posted - 2008.09.23 17:10:00 - [13] why stop there? nerf asian people tbh. - - - i am a humble and inefficent ammo to dps converter
Gergragda Caldari Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.09.23 17:13:00 - [14] Edited by: Gergragda on 23/09/2008 17:14:21 Originally by: Niccolado Starwalker I did not learn all that much during my time in the millitary a long time ago, but one thing I remember: if you are fighting a war, ensure you are using maximum firepower you have available to you! And the smartest and best tactics! So dropping a nuclear bomb on a country to kill a small insurgent force within a remote rural area is the best answer because it is obviously the maximum firepower available to you. The best thing you as a player can do is report / hunt and kill them in game. From my experience hunting farmers in goonspace the majority of them are not Chinese but Norwegian but it appears we attracted some organized group, ARSED specifically had a stint of a month where we were hot dropping and hunting/killing them every chance we got. As a network administrator setting every known IP block from china to banned isn't going to fix the problem but will just upset those legitimately playing. Those operating a business wouldn't even have to spend extra money to get a proxy or use a tunnel to an external server they already have a server up to sell their wares, the majority of which are within US / Euro territories and registered IP blocks. To correct you from earlier though most military strategy involves precision force with least force necessary. That is no more force then is needed but exactly where it is needed. Well, at least that tends to be the goal, I'm sure there are plenty of counter-examples where this practice was ignored.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.09.23 17:14:00 - [15] Edited by: Akita T on 23/09/2008 17:15:21 An overwhelming majority of "goldfarmers" MIGHT be chinese citizens, but that doesn't matter. Mass-banning all Chinese IPs will have three effects, and ONLY those three effects : i) you will no longer have any legitimate players from China (at least none that don't try to circumvent anything) ii) you will no longer get any RMTers from unfaked chinese IPs (hooray?) iii) you will have a whole lot of RMTers from China that simply fake their "real" IPs somehow (and there are plenty of ways) End result ? Nothing good. At best a minor annoyance to professional "goldfarmers", and a major annoyance to any legitimate player cut off. _ SHOPS \|\| Mission rewards revamp \|\| better nanofix
Kuar Z'thain Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.09.23 17:16:00 - [16] The biggest problem is bans not working since the isk sellers can just create a new disposable account. How about this CCP: Have the client install generate a unique ID for the machine it is installed on based on the hardware in the machine: (CPU serial#, HDD Firmware version, etc.) Make sure the install can detect virtual machines and prevent installation so the end-user cannot readily change the perceived hardware setup. When you ban an account, you ban the ID. This forces the banned user to replace hardware or use a different computer for their next account. This hits them in their sensitive little wallet. Discuss!
Niccolado Starwalker Shadow Templars	Posted - 2008.09.23 17:16:00 - [17] Edited by: Niccolado Starwalker on 23/09/2008 17:19:55 Originally by: Akkarin Pagan Originally by: Niccolado Starwalker Rabid Racism So by your logic, if your next door neighbour kills someone you should get locked up too, cos you live near him??? Akkarin Wrong. Racism dont have anything to do with it! Not even remotely close! Its facts! Wikipedia tells it. lots of MMOG specialized and gaming related pages have mentioned it. BBC had articles about it. And if I remember correct Fortune magazine had one too, since it generated lots of money!!! The one I have link to though atm is Wikipedia. See link further up the thread. Sorry, but we need to see the problem for what it is. I have lots of friends in many foreign countries, and I am not bothered at all about multinationalism as so many others. I actually enjoy their company! But the fact is we must see the truth and accept realities if we want to solve the problem! And to your question: No, but what if 80% the whole country killed someone? You should not be locked in that case either, but I would be damn sure that the remains did not have access to guns, if I could! Or in our case: an EVE online account! Originally by: Dianabolic Your tears are absolutely divine, like a fine fine wine, rolling down your cheeks until they flow down the river of LOL
c0rn1 Seraphin Technologies	Posted - 2008.09.23 17:17:00 - [18] Well, why should you ban them right away. In Eve it'd be more fun if you just put a red big blinking cross on them and freeze their bank account. Let everybody shoot em once their case is proven. Give the GM a tool where he can mark those guys for everyone else killable everywhere. Just don't show it to them. And make these guys visible like a beacon across the solar system, so you can warp to them. So the community has some fun! Let us have some fun while we do boring shopping runs in empire! Rgrds c0rn1 x x x x x x x x x x x x x x Life's a waste of time ...
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.09.23 17:23:00 - [19] Originally by: Kuar Z'thain The biggest problem is bans not working since the isk sellers can just create a new disposable account. How about this CCP: [...] Let me rephrase your "plan" in realistic terms : "CCP, please waste a lot of manpower doing something that will eventually be circumvented by those with a vested interest to do so anyway". Maybe your should join the RIAA or MPAA, I hear they still believe stronger DRM can and will stop "software pirates". Before you ask, no, what you want CCP to do isn't radically different, it's only slightly different. _ SHOPS \|\| Mission rewards revamp \|\| better nanofix
Gergragda Caldari Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.09.23 17:23:00 - [20] Edited by: Gergragda on 23/09/2008 17:25:19 Originally by: Niccolado Starwalker Wrong. Racism dont have anything to do with it! Not even remotely close! Its facts! Wikipedia tells it. lots of MMOG specialized and gaming related pages have mentioned it. BBC had articles about it. And if I remember correct Fortune magazine had one too, since it generated lots of money!!! The one I have link to though atm is Wikipedia. See link further up the thread. Sorry, but we need to see the problem for what it is. I have lots of friends in many foreign countries, and I am not bothered at all about multinationalism as so many others. I actually enjoy their company! But the fact is we must see the truth and accept realities if we want to solve the problem! There are also studies that say people of African decent are more likely to commit crimes then other demographics, would it not be racist to lock up every African American in prison because they MIGHT commit a crime? Guilty by association? The point here is that what you are describing is racist, it is painting an entire population with the same brush and punishing the entire group because a select portion of them deal in ways that are adverse to the EULA of the game. The second point is: Facts are dangerous things, in the wrong hands it can lead to some actions that are worse then the previous facts. That and describing percentages of legit players vs isk farmers isn't an exact science it's merely numbers pulled out of one's fourth point of contact.
Niccolado Starwalker Shadow Templars	Posted - 2008.09.23 17:25:00 - [21] Originally by: c0rn1 ..stuff.. I dont really care about how its done, just its done! No matter where they come from, no matter who they are! I just want em removed! When even the governments around the world are looking into the case as a problem (from their view: loss of tax money..) then you understand how big this business have turned.. Well, so ends this topic for me. I want em banned. We need a better hammer! I am not sure what the hammer should be and how it should be applied, but the business is growing, and if we want to do something about it, serious thoughts needs to be presented about this matter! Originally by: Dianabolic Your tears are absolutely divine, like a fine fine wine, rolling down your cheeks until they flow down the river of LOL
Kuar Z'thain Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.09.23 17:27:00 - [22] Originally by: Akita T Originally by: Kuar Z'thain The biggest problem is bans not working since the isk sellers can just create a new disposable account. How about this CCP: [...] Let me rephrase your "plan" in realistic terms : "CCP, please waste a lot of manpower doing something that will eventually be circumvented by those with a vested interest to do so anyway". Maybe your should join the RIAA or MPAA, I hear they still believe stronger DRM can and will stop "software pirates". Before you ask, no, what you want CCP to do isn't radically different, it's only slightly different. Yeah, you're right. Slippery slope toward "monitor" programs installed with the client download. Just trying to throw more ideas into the hat so we can steer away from banning an entire region.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.09.23 17:28:00 - [23] It really doesn't matter wether the statement "most goldfarmers are chinese" is racist or not (coincidentally because it's also true). What matters is that IP-blocking China will "solve" nothing. _ SHOPS \|\| Mission rewards revamp \|\| better nanofix
Tippia Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.09.23 17:28:00 - [24] Originally by: Niccolado Starwalker Wrong. Racism dont have anything to do with it! Not even remotely close! Its facts! Wikipedia tells it. lots of MMOG specialized and gaming related pages have mentioned it. BBC had articles about it. And if I remember correct Fortune magazine had one too, since it generated lots of money!!! First of all, LMAO @áWikipedia = facts. Second of all, it doesn't matter if that percentage is true or not — you're still judging a whole population based on a subset of it, which makes you racist (since the defining characteristic of you population definition is race).
Gergragda Caldari Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.09.23 17:32:00 - [25] Originally by: Akita T It really doesn't matter wether the statement "most goldfarmers are chinese" is racist or not (coincidentally because it's also true). What matters is that IP-blocking China will "solve" nothing. The statement by itself isn't racist, however, when you go and take action against the entire country because a small group behave badly is when it becomes racist. or in this case when you propose action.
Kuar Z'thain Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.09.23 17:35:00 - [26] Originally by: Gergragda Originally by: Akita T It really doesn't matter wether the statement "most goldfarmers are chinese" is racist or not (coincidentally because it's also true). What matters is that IP-blocking China will "solve" nothing. The statement by itself isn't racist, however, when you go and take action against the entire country because a small group behave badly is when it becomes racist. or in this case when you propose action. A goon defining racism? my head asplode
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.09.23 17:36:00 - [27] As long as people can earn a living wherever they live from selling virtual goods to the people who live in wealthier places, you WILL have "goldfarming". The only way to "stop goldfarmers for good" is to either : * make it so that you CAN'T earn a living even in the poorest country from selling any virtual goods (nobody sells frags in CS because they're worthless, but in a MMO it's next to impossible to pull that "worthless" thing off) * employ draconian person-identifying measures (unfeasable no matter how you look at it) Or, you can constantly monitor any character that even looks suspicious and ban them at first irefutable evidence (CCP do that already, but they don't have enough manpower to do it "as fast as you'd like" - it's ECONOMICALLY UNFEASABLE to have enough manpower to do it as fast as you'd like). _ SHOPS \|\| Mission rewards revamp \|\| better nanofix
Niccolado Starwalker Shadow Templars	Posted - 2008.09.23 17:37:00 - [28] Edited by: Niccolado Starwalker on 23/09/2008 17:37:58 Originally by: Gergragda Originally by: Akita T It really doesn't matter wether the statement "most goldfarmers are chinese" is racist or not (coincidentally because it's also true). What matters is that IP-blocking China will "solve" nothing. The statement by itself isn't racist, however, when you go and take action against the entire country because a small group behave badly is when it becomes racist. or in this case when you propose action. last input from me to this very uncomfortable thread: OK! OK! what will stop them then???? Give me some input on what really CAN BE DONE?? Its so easy to critizise, but hard to give good options! No matter where they come from: its a growing business, and it needs to be stopped! Thank you from me. Originally by: Dianabolic Your tears are absolutely divine, like a fine fine wine, rolling down your cheeks until they flow down the river of LOL
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.09.23 17:45:00 - [29] Originally by: Niccolado Starwalker OK! OK! what will stop them then???? Give me some input on what really CAN BE DONE?? Nothing that isn't already done. We just need more of it. Also, a public list of RMT-related banned character names (no personal/RL info) would be a nice touch. _ SHOPS \|\| Mission rewards revamp \|\| better nanofix
Gergragda Caldari Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.09.23 17:49:00 - [30] Originally by: Niccolado Starwalker last input from me to this very uncomfortable thread: OK! OK! what will stop them then???? Give me some input on what really CAN BE DONE?? Its so easy to critizise, but hard to give good options! No matter where they come from: its a growing business, and it needs to be stopped! Thank you from me. Read my previous post [Quote=Uhm Me!] The best thing you as a player can do is report / hunt and kill them in game. [/Quote] You nor CCP is going to entirely destroy the business it's been a problem in many games for longer then eve has existed, the most you can do is make it harder for the entities that work within your sphere of influence to be able to farm isk. Suicide bombing macro mining hulks, probing out macro ratters and killing them in deep space or what have you. Unfortunately there isn't an acceptable one shot one kill for the problem as people would like to believe it would require action on both the players parts and diligence within CCP doing behavior checks on isk transactions and even then the problem would still persist. It's all a mice and trap game, you build a better mousetrap the mice simply learn to avoid the traps.

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