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Alz Shado Ever Flow	Posted - 2008.09.23 15:56:00 - [1] How to Deal with Isk Sellers, by Mark Jacobs (an excerpt from here) Originally by: Mark Jacobs We donÆt wait and let them stay in the game and ban them en-masse, my guys ban their useless, time-consuming butts right away. We have a strike team whose sole job it is to get these guys off our servers as quickly as possible. You're doing it right. //// ---------=== []= ---------=== \\\\ Rifter(RedBad) "Kill a man one is a murderer; kill a million, a conqueror; kill them all, a God." -- Jean Rostand
Niccolado Starwalker Shadow Templars	Posted - 2008.09.23 16:12:00 - [2] Edited by: Niccolado Starwalker on 23/09/2008 16:15:46 Originally by: Alz Shado How to Deal with Isk Sellers, by Mark Jacobs (an excerpt from here) Originally by: Mark Jacobs We donÆt wait and let them stay in the game and ban them en-masse, my guys ban their useless, time-consuming butts right away. We have a strike team whose sole job it is to get these guys off our servers as quickly as possible. You're doing it right. A better way is to IP block whole China! I have read from a dozen magazines now that 80% of the worlds ISK sellers come from China! This is simply plain fact! I cant remember what numbers of isk farmers/sellers we are speaking here, but I think it was more then like 100k farmers on MMOG world basis! If not much much more!! so yes! IP block the whole country. Create a superwall just like the chinese government do against their own. And keep it there until things the numbers have changed to like 20% sellers and 80% players in other online games! Maybe they can proxy around it, I dunno, but hopefully that can be stopped too. Originally by: Dianabolic Your tears are absolutely divine, like a fine fine wine, rolling down your cheeks until they flow down the river of LOL
Jethro Jechonias Ki Tech Industries	Posted - 2008.09.23 16:15:00 - [3] Originally by: Niccolado Starwalker A better way is to IP block whole China! Right, because we don't want any legitimate customers from China on our server, and the IT staff at the farming sweat shops lack the basic compitence to set up a proxy to bipass the filter.
RaTTuS BIG Libertas Fidelitas	Posted - 2008.09.23 16:16:00 - [4] Originally by: Niccolado Starwalker A better way is to IP block whole China! I have read from a dozen magazines now that 80% of the worlds ISK sellers come from China! This is simply plain fact! you read wrong -- BIG Lottery, BIG Deal, InEve
AT Reynolds Gallente Rockafeller Industries	Posted - 2008.09.23 16:19:00 - [5] Quote: How to Deal with Isk Sellers Track them down and kill them?
Niccolado Starwalker Shadow Templars	Posted - 2008.09.23 16:19:00 - [6] Edited by: Niccolado Starwalker on 23/09/2008 16:21:47 Originally by: Jethro Jechonias Originally by: Niccolado Starwalker A better way is to IP block whole China! Right, because we don't want any legitimate customers from China on our server, and the IT staff at the farming sweat shops lack the basic compitence to set up a proxy to bipass the filter. Nope. Its time to take a stand against this kind of crime before it gets larger then it allready is! A few magazines I have read who have looked into it - it have been linked aplenty here in EVE earlier! - shows numbers that close to 80% of the playerbase are looking for ways of earning and selling gold. Just as the blogger which the OP links to I am tired of ISK farmers and their business. It destroys the game. Originally by: Wikipedia - see link According to estimates, around 100,000 people in China are employed as gold farmers, as of December 2005.[1] Chinese gold farmers typically work twelve hour shifts, and sometimes up to eighteen hour shifts. Wages depend heavily on location and the size of the gold-farming company. One gold-farming operation in Chongqing in central China with 23 gold farmers was reported to pay its employees the equivalent of about 120 U.S. dollars per month, while workers at a larger gold farm in Fuzhou earn the equivalent of about 250 U.S. dollars per month. The rising prevalence of gold farming has led to the creation of gold-farm brokerages. There are gold farmers or gold farms in other countries as well, such as the Philippines, Indonesia, and Mexico. However, they do not approach the scope and scale of the Chinese farm industry. Wikipedia Originally by: Dianabolic Your tears are absolutely divine, like a fine fine wine, rolling down your cheeks until they flow down the river of LOL
Jethro Jechonias Ki Tech Industries	Posted - 2008.09.23 16:28:00 - [7] Originally by: Niccolado Starwalker Nope. Its time to take a stand against this kind of crime before it gets larger then it allready is! Blocking IP addresses doesn't help. IP addresses can be spoofed and proxied with great ease by those who care to do so.
Niccolado Starwalker Shadow Templars	Posted - 2008.09.23 16:33:00 - [8] Originally by: Jethro Jechonias Originally by: Niccolado Starwalker Nope. Its time to take a stand against this kind of crime before it gets larger then it allready is! Blocking IP addresses doesn't help. IP addresses can be spoofed and proxied with great ease by those who care to do so. What about some kind of a firewall? Im sure it has to be possible. The chinese filters out a huge part of the worlds internet traffic towards china. I am sure CCP can block access from china to their servers. Honestly I am bloody tired as hell seeing and hearing about systems with up to a hundred mining ships doing mining ops or hauling or whatever they do! Banning accounts have proved futile. The trade is growing all the time! IF we are serious about stopping it, we need a more "firepower!" Originally by: Dianabolic Your tears are absolutely divine, like a fine fine wine, rolling down your cheeks until they flow down the river of LOL
Kuar Z'thain Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.09.23 16:42:00 - [9] Originally by: Niccolado Starwalker Originally by: Jethro Jechonias Originally by: Niccolado Starwalker Nope. Its time to take a stand against this kind of crime before it gets larger then it allready is! Blocking IP addresses doesn't help. IP addresses can be spoofed and proxied with great ease by those who care to do so. What about some kind of a firewall? Im sure it has to be possible. The chinese filters out a huge part of the worlds internet traffic towards china. I am sure CCP can block access from china to their servers. Honestly I am bloody tired as hell seeing and hearing about systems with up to a hundred mining ships doing mining ops or hauling or whatever they do! Banning accounts have proved futile. The trade is growing all the time! IF we are serious about stopping it, we need a more "firepower!" You really need to drop the Chinese = Farmer shit. And trust the Network Admins when they say that IP-Block filtering is a horribly stupid idea.
Niccolado Starwalker Shadow Templars	Posted - 2008.09.23 16:55:00 - [10] Edited by: Niccolado Starwalker on 23/09/2008 16:55:31 Originally by: Kuar Z'thain Originally by: Niccolado Starwalker Originally by: Jethro Jechonias Originally by: Niccolado Starwalker Nope. Its time to take a stand against this kind of crime before it gets larger then it allready is! Blocking IP addresses doesn't help. IP addresses can be spoofed and proxied with great ease by those who care to do so. What about some kind of a firewall? Im sure it has to be possible. The chinese filters out a huge part of the worlds internet traffic towards china. I am sure CCP can block access from china to their servers. Honestly I am bloody tired as hell seeing and hearing about systems with up to a hundred mining ships doing mining ops or hauling or whatever they do! Banning accounts have proved futile. The trade is growing all the time! IF we are serious about stopping it, we need a more "firepower!" You really need to drop the Chinese = Farmer shit. And trust the Network Admins when they say that IP-Block filtering is a horribly stupid idea. I will drop it when all research proves that the majority of sellers are not anymore from China. Plenty of research confirms it. And so do Wikipedia, for what that is worth. Im sorry, I dont like it any more then you putting a tag on group of people, but honestly, if the majority of isk sellers where norwegian, I would not hesitate using the same terms against my native countrymen! I did not learn all that much during my time in the millitary a long time ago, but one thing I remember: if you are fighting a war, ensure you are using maximum firepower you have available to you! And the smartest and best tactics! Originally by: Dianabolic Your tears are absolutely divine, like a fine fine wine, rolling down your cheeks until they flow down the river of LOL
Kuar Z'thain Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.09.23 17:02:00 - [11] Originally by: Niccolado Starwalker I did not learn all that much during my time in the millitary a long time ago, but one thing I remember: if you are fighting a war, ensure you are using maximum firepower you have available to you! And the smartest and best tactics! So.... you want to carpet-bomb that village over there cause it's .05% infested with insurgents? Maybe we need some smarter tactics.....
Akkarin Pagan Minmatar Raddick Explorations BlackWater.	Posted - 2008.09.23 17:04:00 - [12] Originally by: Niccolado Starwalker Rabid Racism So by your logic, if your next door neighbour kills someone you should get locked up too, cos you live near him??? Akkarin I don't mean to sound bitter and twisted, but I am, so that's how it comes out. <3 - Immy
Faife Minmatar Kinda'Shujaa	Posted - 2008.09.23 17:10:00 - [13] why stop there? nerf asian people tbh. - - - i am a humble and inefficent ammo to dps converter
Gergragda Caldari Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.09.23 17:13:00 - [14] Edited by: Gergragda on 23/09/2008 17:14:21 Originally by: Niccolado Starwalker I did not learn all that much during my time in the millitary a long time ago, but one thing I remember: if you are fighting a war, ensure you are using maximum firepower you have available to you! And the smartest and best tactics! So dropping a nuclear bomb on a country to kill a small insurgent force within a remote rural area is the best answer because it is obviously the maximum firepower available to you. The best thing you as a player can do is report / hunt and kill them in game. From my experience hunting farmers in goonspace the majority of them are not Chinese but Norwegian but it appears we attracted some organized group, ARSED specifically had a stint of a month where we were hot dropping and hunting/killing them every chance we got. As a network administrator setting every known IP block from china to banned isn't going to fix the problem but will just upset those legitimately playing. Those operating a business wouldn't even have to spend extra money to get a proxy or use a tunnel to an external server they already have a server up to sell their wares, the majority of which are within US / Euro territories and registered IP blocks. To correct you from earlier though most military strategy involves precision force with least force necessary. That is no more force then is needed but exactly where it is needed. Well, at least that tends to be the goal, I'm sure there are plenty of counter-examples where this practice was ignored.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.09.23 17:14:00 - [15] Edited by: Akita T on 23/09/2008 17:15:21 An overwhelming majority of "goldfarmers" MIGHT be chinese citizens, but that doesn't matter. Mass-banning all Chinese IPs will have three effects, and ONLY those three effects : i) you will no longer have any legitimate players from China (at least none that don't try to circumvent anything) ii) you will no longer get any RMTers from unfaked chinese IPs (hooray?) iii) you will have a whole lot of RMTers from China that simply fake their "real" IPs somehow (and there are plenty of ways) End result ? Nothing good. At best a minor annoyance to professional "goldfarmers", and a major annoyance to any legitimate player cut off. _ SHOPS \|\| Mission rewards revamp \|\| better nanofix
Kuar Z'thain Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.09.23 17:16:00 - [16] The biggest problem is bans not working since the isk sellers can just create a new disposable account. How about this CCP: Have the client install generate a unique ID for the machine it is installed on based on the hardware in the machine: (CPU serial#, HDD Firmware version, etc.) Make sure the install can detect virtual machines and prevent installation so the end-user cannot readily change the perceived hardware setup. When you ban an account, you ban the ID. This forces the banned user to replace hardware or use a different computer for their next account. This hits them in their sensitive little wallet. Discuss!
Niccolado Starwalker Shadow Templars	Posted - 2008.09.23 17:16:00 - [17] Edited by: Niccolado Starwalker on 23/09/2008 17:19:55 Originally by: Akkarin Pagan Originally by: Niccolado Starwalker Rabid Racism So by your logic, if your next door neighbour kills someone you should get locked up too, cos you live near him??? Akkarin Wrong. Racism dont have anything to do with it! Not even remotely close! Its facts! Wikipedia tells it. lots of MMOG specialized and gaming related pages have mentioned it. BBC had articles about it. And if I remember correct Fortune magazine had one too, since it generated lots of money!!! The one I have link to though atm is Wikipedia. See link further up the thread. Sorry, but we need to see the problem for what it is. I have lots of friends in many foreign countries, and I am not bothered at all about multinationalism as so many others. I actually enjoy their company! But the fact is we must see the truth and accept realities if we want to solve the problem! And to your question: No, but what if 80% the whole country killed someone? You should not be locked in that case either, but I would be damn sure that the remains did not have access to guns, if I could! Or in our case: an EVE online account! Originally by: Dianabolic Your tears are absolutely divine, like a fine fine wine, rolling down your cheeks until they flow down the river of LOL
c0rn1 Seraphin Technologies	Posted - 2008.09.23 17:17:00 - [18] Well, why should you ban them right away. In Eve it'd be more fun if you just put a red big blinking cross on them and freeze their bank account. Let everybody shoot em once their case is proven. Give the GM a tool where he can mark those guys for everyone else killable everywhere. Just don't show it to them. And make these guys visible like a beacon across the solar system, so you can warp to them. So the community has some fun! Let us have some fun while we do boring shopping runs in empire! Rgrds c0rn1 x x x x x x x x x x x x x x Life's a waste of time ...
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.09.23 17:23:00 - [19] Originally by: Kuar Z'thain The biggest problem is bans not working since the isk sellers can just create a new disposable account. How about this CCP: [...] Let me rephrase your "plan" in realistic terms : "CCP, please waste a lot of manpower doing something that will eventually be circumvented by those with a vested interest to do so anyway". Maybe your should join the RIAA or MPAA, I hear they still believe stronger DRM can and will stop "software pirates". Before you ask, no, what you want CCP to do isn't radically different, it's only slightly different. _ SHOPS \|\| Mission rewards revamp \|\| better nanofix
Gergragda Caldari Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.09.23 17:23:00 - [20] Edited by: Gergragda on 23/09/2008 17:25:19 Originally by: Niccolado Starwalker Wrong. Racism dont have anything to do with it! Not even remotely close! Its facts! Wikipedia tells it. lots of MMOG specialized and gaming related pages have mentioned it. BBC had articles about it. And if I remember correct Fortune magazine had one too, since it generated lots of money!!! The one I have link to though atm is Wikipedia. See link further up the thread. Sorry, but we need to see the problem for what it is. I have lots of friends in many foreign countries, and I am not bothered at all about multinationalism as so many others. I actually enjoy their company! But the fact is we must see the truth and accept realities if we want to solve the problem! There are also studies that say people of African decent are more likely to commit crimes then other demographics, would it not be racist to lock up every African American in prison because they MIGHT commit a crime? Guilty by association? The point here is that what you are describing is racist, it is painting an entire population with the same brush and punishing the entire group because a select portion of them deal in ways that are adverse to the EULA of the game. The second point is: Facts are dangerous things, in the wrong hands it can lead to some actions that are worse then the previous facts. That and describing percentages of legit players vs isk farmers isn't an exact science it's merely numbers pulled out of one's fourth point of contact.
Niccolado Starwalker Shadow Templars	Posted - 2008.09.23 17:25:00 - [21] Originally by: c0rn1 ..stuff.. I dont really care about how its done, just its done! No matter where they come from, no matter who they are! I just want em removed! When even the governments around the world are looking into the case as a problem (from their view: loss of tax money..) then you understand how big this business have turned.. Well, so ends this topic for me. I want em banned. We need a better hammer! I am not sure what the hammer should be and how it should be applied, but the business is growing, and if we want to do something about it, serious thoughts needs to be presented about this matter! Originally by: Dianabolic Your tears are absolutely divine, like a fine fine wine, rolling down your cheeks until they flow down the river of LOL
Kuar Z'thain Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.09.23 17:27:00 - [22] Originally by: Akita T Originally by: Kuar Z'thain The biggest problem is bans not working since the isk sellers can just create a new disposable account. How about this CCP: [...] Let me rephrase your "plan" in realistic terms : "CCP, please waste a lot of manpower doing something that will eventually be circumvented by those with a vested interest to do so anyway". Maybe your should join the RIAA or MPAA, I hear they still believe stronger DRM can and will stop "software pirates". Before you ask, no, what you want CCP to do isn't radically different, it's only slightly different. Yeah, you're right. Slippery slope toward "monitor" programs installed with the client download. Just trying to throw more ideas into the hat so we can steer away from banning an entire region.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.09.23 17:28:00 - [23] It really doesn't matter wether the statement "most goldfarmers are chinese" is racist or not (coincidentally because it's also true). What matters is that IP-blocking China will "solve" nothing. _ SHOPS \|\| Mission rewards revamp \|\| better nanofix
Tippia Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.09.23 17:28:00 - [24] Originally by: Niccolado Starwalker Wrong. Racism dont have anything to do with it! Not even remotely close! Its facts! Wikipedia tells it. lots of MMOG specialized and gaming related pages have mentioned it. BBC had articles about it. And if I remember correct Fortune magazine had one too, since it generated lots of money!!! First of all, LMAO @áWikipedia = facts. Second of all, it doesn't matter if that percentage is true or not — you're still judging a whole population based on a subset of it, which makes you racist (since the defining characteristic of you population definition is race).
Gergragda Caldari Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.09.23 17:32:00 - [25] Originally by: Akita T It really doesn't matter wether the statement "most goldfarmers are chinese" is racist or not (coincidentally because it's also true). What matters is that IP-blocking China will "solve" nothing. The statement by itself isn't racist, however, when you go and take action against the entire country because a small group behave badly is when it becomes racist. or in this case when you propose action.
Kuar Z'thain Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.09.23 17:35:00 - [26] Originally by: Gergragda Originally by: Akita T It really doesn't matter wether the statement "most goldfarmers are chinese" is racist or not (coincidentally because it's also true). What matters is that IP-blocking China will "solve" nothing. The statement by itself isn't racist, however, when you go and take action against the entire country because a small group behave badly is when it becomes racist. or in this case when you propose action. A goon defining racism? my head asplode
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.09.23 17:36:00 - [27] As long as people can earn a living wherever they live from selling virtual goods to the people who live in wealthier places, you WILL have "goldfarming". The only way to "stop goldfarmers for good" is to either : * make it so that you CAN'T earn a living even in the poorest country from selling any virtual goods (nobody sells frags in CS because they're worthless, but in a MMO it's next to impossible to pull that "worthless" thing off) * employ draconian person-identifying measures (unfeasable no matter how you look at it) Or, you can constantly monitor any character that even looks suspicious and ban them at first irefutable evidence (CCP do that already, but they don't have enough manpower to do it "as fast as you'd like" - it's ECONOMICALLY UNFEASABLE to have enough manpower to do it as fast as you'd like). _ SHOPS \|\| Mission rewards revamp \|\| better nanofix
Niccolado Starwalker Shadow Templars	Posted - 2008.09.23 17:37:00 - [28] Edited by: Niccolado Starwalker on 23/09/2008 17:37:58 Originally by: Gergragda Originally by: Akita T It really doesn't matter wether the statement "most goldfarmers are chinese" is racist or not (coincidentally because it's also true). What matters is that IP-blocking China will "solve" nothing. The statement by itself isn't racist, however, when you go and take action against the entire country because a small group behave badly is when it becomes racist. or in this case when you propose action. last input from me to this very uncomfortable thread: OK! OK! what will stop them then???? Give me some input on what really CAN BE DONE?? Its so easy to critizise, but hard to give good options! No matter where they come from: its a growing business, and it needs to be stopped! Thank you from me. Originally by: Dianabolic Your tears are absolutely divine, like a fine fine wine, rolling down your cheeks until they flow down the river of LOL
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.09.23 17:45:00 - [29] Originally by: Niccolado Starwalker OK! OK! what will stop them then???? Give me some input on what really CAN BE DONE?? Nothing that isn't already done. We just need more of it. Also, a public list of RMT-related banned character names (no personal/RL info) would be a nice touch. _ SHOPS \|\| Mission rewards revamp \|\| better nanofix
Gergragda Caldari Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.09.23 17:49:00 - [30] Originally by: Niccolado Starwalker last input from me to this very uncomfortable thread: OK! OK! what will stop them then???? Give me some input on what really CAN BE DONE?? Its so easy to critizise, but hard to give good options! No matter where they come from: its a growing business, and it needs to be stopped! Thank you from me. Read my previous post [Quote=Uhm Me!] The best thing you as a player can do is report / hunt and kill them in game. [/Quote] You nor CCP is going to entirely destroy the business it's been a problem in many games for longer then eve has existed, the most you can do is make it harder for the entities that work within your sphere of influence to be able to farm isk. Suicide bombing macro mining hulks, probing out macro ratters and killing them in deep space or what have you. Unfortunately there isn't an acceptable one shot one kill for the problem as people would like to believe it would require action on both the players parts and diligence within CCP doing behavior checks on isk transactions and even then the problem would still persist. It's all a mice and trap game, you build a better mousetrap the mice simply learn to avoid the traps.
Ampoliros Shadow Company Axiom Empire	Posted - 2008.09.23 18:01:00 - [31] Originally by: Alz Shado How to Deal with Isk Sellers, by Mark Jacobs (an excerpt from here) Originally by: Mark Jacobs We donÆt wait and let them stay in the game and ban them en-masse, my guys ban their useless, time-consuming butts right away. We have a strike team whose sole job it is to get these guys off our servers as quickly as possible. You're doing it right. Gold selling was done in DAoC, it will be done in Warhammer, and Jacobs is delusional if he thinks otherwise - hardline stance is great and all, but the playerbase is the one that's largely responsible for it. If there wasn't a market, there wouldn't be a seller. ----------------------------- Signature for sale :o
Seeing EyeDog	Posted - 2008.09.23 18:32:00 - [32] Originally by: Jethro Jechonias Originally by: Niccolado Starwalker A better way is to IP block whole China! Right, because we don't want any legitimate customers from China on our server, and the IT staff at the farming sweat shops lack the basic compitence to set up a proxy to bipass the filter. ISNT THAT WHAT MULTIPLICITY IS FOR? maybe you should check and see that Eve has a CHINESE server....maybe they should enforce the rules so that IPs from China use it, and not our servers? Think about how many mission hubs would become playable once CCP moves these unwanted chens to their respective server... _____________________ Originally by: Locus Bey Intelligence isn't a prequisite for being a Goon, in fact its a deficit.
Victor Kruger	Posted - 2008.09.23 19:10:00 - [33] Don't worry, the chinese Isk RMT farmer problem will solve itself eventually when the country suffocates on its own waste. --------------- Hey, where's my portrait
Malcanis RuffRyders Axiom Empire	Posted - 2008.09.23 20:30:00 - [34] Originally by: Victor Kruger Don't worry, the chinese Isk RMT farmer problem will solve itself eventually when the country suffocates on its own waste. Or more to the point, when stupid westerners suddenly don't have money to spend on buying ISK.
Lady Valory Caldari Caldari Strike Force	Posted - 2008.09.23 20:42:00 - [35] Edited by: Lady Valory on 23/09/2008 20:42:45 There is NO reason why a spawn in 0.0 should respawn with the original ships. If someone kills a triple 185000 bs spawn and leaves the frigs, and waits 15 minute, that spawn respawns and can be farmed all day. That needs to stop. Whenever a spawn in 0.0 is agressed, in 15 min that entire spawn needs to vanish and be replaced with a random spawn from the spawn table. That alone will cut the amount of isk down dramatically!
Gergragda Caldari Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.09.23 20:56:00 - [36] Originally by: Lady Valory Edited by: Lady Valory on 23/09/2008 20:42:45 There is NO reason why a spawn in 0.0 should respawn with the original ships. If someone kills a triple 185000 bs spawn and leaves the frigs, and waits 15 minute, that spawn respawns and can be farmed all day. That needs to stop. Whenever a spawn in 0.0 is agressed, in 15 min that entire spawn needs to vanish and be replaced with a random spawn from the spawn table. That alone will cut the amount of isk down dramatically! Interesting I don't see many macro ratters that chain spawns, they tend to not even head out to where anything above 1.2mil BS's spawn which contain many belts and low traffic. 0.0 isn't very worth while for the individual pilot as it is in terms of risk vs reward and cutting down on it further isn't going to really hurt the farmer near as much as it's going to hurt the individuals that reside out in 0.0 Currently Level 4 mission running is just as or more profitable then a full out chained system if you disregard the very random named officer spawns (I've had one in over a year) and generally worthless (atleast angels are) faction spawns, which would only bump it ahead single digit numbers of mil isk per hour. While I don't think Level 4 missioning should be nerfed I don't think that it should be on the same income level as holding and maintaining space and living off it to the average player.
Qordel Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.09.23 22:46:00 - [37] You may not be able to ban sellers entirely, but you can prevent them from doing it on the servers themselves. The problem is, why ban accounts AFTER they have done the spamming? The websites being spammed on WAR are all the same handful of URLs. Rather than letting them spam hundreds of thousands of people multiple times and then eventually ban them -- only to have them create more accounts and do it all again by the time they're banned, wouldn't it make more sense to ban the URLs from chat in the first place (without alerting the person saying the URL that it has been banned so they don't try to devise new ways to rephrase it)? If you ban the URLs, you prevent millions of spam from each account before they're even spammed. Rather than re-acting to them after the damage is already done. Create 10,000 new accounts - you still can't get your URL out to the players on the server, so it doesn't matter. As for EVE -- why not simply implement a number of heuristics against trial accounts? Why is this spamming still going on un-checked? It doesn't take a rocket scientist to say "if a message contains a URL and the words isk, sell, cheap, price AND the author of the message is a trial account..."? If nothing else, there should at least be a limit on trial accounts being able to say more than X number of lines in Y minutes. Why has a limit not been placed that AT THE VERY LEAST prevents the same account from spamming the same channel with the same message 10 times in as many seconds?
Feilamya Minmatar 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2008.09.23 23:16:00 - [38] Guess who M.J. targeted with the last paragraph: Quote: BTW, for those who might be tempted to think that we are doing this so we could offer our own service or because we do make money off their boxes (traditionally, gold sellers will quickly shift to buddy disks and free trials though to lower their costs) let me tell you this. IÆve been offered ôa piece of the actionö both personally and corporately in the past if I will either turn a blind eye or help them in their actions. This would have netted me and/or Mythic a very, very tidy sum, far more than we would see from box sales. My answer was and always will remain the same: Don't take it too serious though. This guy is the big mouth of Mythic Entertainment. His job is to produce hot air and hype, and he's doing a good job. Hot air won't keep the farmers out of the game, though. Farmers are or will be treated in WAR like in any other game. They just can't ban them all again and again and again. All this article really shows is: Surprise! There are farmers in WAR! Which means it is yet another grind game...
Xori Ruscuv The Scope	Posted - 2008.09.23 23:21:00 - [39] Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 23/09/2008 23:21:06 Originally by: Feilamya Don't take it too serious though. This guy is the big mouth of Mythic Entertainment. His job is to produce hot air and hype, and he's doing a good job. Hot air won't keep the farmers out of the game, though. Farmers are or will be treated in WAR like in any other game. They just can't ban them all again and again and again. All this article really shows is: Surprise! There are farmers in WAR! Which means it is yet another grind game... That. After playing beta for several months and enduring endless painful hype about how amazing and revolutionary WAR was supposed to be, I just have this to say: World of Hypehammer. /me Welcomes self back to Eve.
ShardowRhino Caldari Legion 0f The Damned	Posted - 2008.09.24 01:33:00 - [40] the only way to completely stop the chinese gold farmers is to destroyz the chineze internetz. Proton torpedoes + ventilation shaft ftw!
Blastrodamus	Posted - 2008.09.24 03:01:00 - [41] Originally by: Niccolado Starwalker Its facts! Wikipedia tells it. hahahahahahaha are you serious?
Kazuma Saruwatari Caldari	Posted - 2008.09.24 03:12:00 - [42] I happen to know isk farmers down here where I live. They even sell the isk. If I blew the whistle on them, however, I'd have RL repercussions coming right at me, in the form of a gun to the head. Not every sweatshop "gold" farmer is some low-time shanty-town lot owner with internet access and some PC's. -
Mika Meroko Minmatar Crayon Posting Inc	Posted - 2008.09.24 03:34:00 - [43] wow.. a thread where BOB, GOON and misc agree on something... makes me feel all warm inside... and the guy who tries to harp ideas such as ban all IPS 1) proxies.. it will never work.. they will find a way around it.. as long as westerners keep buying isk, those farmers will farm and sell.. the problem is WESTERNERS BUYING ISK!!!! NERF WESTERNERS (... see what I did just there?... thats how silly you looked when you went the who sino-bashing...) The issue is: As long as someone is willing to pay COLD HARD CASH on something, SOMEONE (usually someone poorer) will work for it... and yeah, NEVER fight against the guy who's next meal depends on what they do.. you will NOT Win... it will just create headaches for you... 2) The Chinese server, is only good for mainlanders.. there are Chinese (that cant play on the Chinese server) that routes near those IP ranges (iirc, HK and Taiwan) that well... your better damn have a selective filter... but hey, we are talking about banning non-farmers here, farmers have tons of ways to bypass it. 3) like it or not, it IS racist to take action/label/attribute a neg quality to a group of identifiable people based on their physical features (yeah yeah... I got my basis covered) due to a minority in the group... especially when said minority isnt even remotely representative of the people (other than having said physical features..) as said in the previous examples. is like arresting all African Americans because "studies" shown that they are more likely to commit crime....(note the " ") so yeah... all in all.. the BEST way to get rid of RMT is to target the buyers... either aggressively punish buyers and/or providing alternate, easily accessabile means (GTCs) for them to choose... I still say the log in page needs a permanant msg that says: "buying isk for real life cash from 3rd parties will result in said isk taken away, and a warning, repeat offenders will be banned. If you decide to buy isk, do so by CCP sanctioned method, purchase a Game time Card (LINK TO STORE) then trade it to another player for isk in secure trade." Originally by: CCP Atropos I pod people because there's money to be made in selling tears.
Aveng3X Underworld Protection Agency The Crimson Federation	Posted - 2008.09.24 23:20:00 - [44] Originally by: Kazuma Saruwatari I happen to know isk farmers down here where I live. They even sell the isk. If I blew the whistle on them, however, I'd have RL repercussions coming right at me, in the form of a gun to the head. Not every sweatshop "gold" farmer is some low-time shanty-town lot owner with internet access and some PC's. I would suggest moving...there's also such thing as anonymity. If they'd shoot you and you know about what they do, I wonder what the chances are that they brag about it to others?
Lady Valory Caldari Caldari Strike Force	Posted - 2008.09.24 23:49:00 - [45] Well, you could have "deposits" for when you start to play. You have to front 180 days in advance, and the new eula states that if you violate it, then you forfit the 90 days... After 90 days you can either refund or roll the 90 days forward and play 3 months for free. This would make the entering price to sub something high like $120 but would discourage farmers as if they farmed and got caught, they would lose more.
Raving Gerbil	Posted - 2008.09.25 00:09:00 - [46] There is no doubt at all that CCP could employ a 20 man team to simply fly around space all day permabanning isk farmers... Its not hard, for one "go to hisec ice belt, find 6 chars all around a GSC named somthing similar to pidfposidfs, and ban him and his 5 other mackinaw friends and their hauler" However, if they remove ALL of the ice farming macroers, WHO is going to mine ALL the ice for ALL the posses in eve? Players maybe? would they be able to supply the same amount? It all boils down to one thing and one thing only, CCP COULD do something, but they dont, for WHATEVER REASON, they dont, and they dont care either. Otherwise would have all stopped long ago.
Ka Jolo The Tuskers	Posted - 2008.09.25 00:26:00 - [47] The only way to stop RMT is...well, there's actually no way to stop RMT. It's like the USA trying to ban alcohol back in the 1920's, or trying to ban ******* or meth today. Every MMORPG has RMT, whether it's against the EULA or not, and whether or not the world has its own official currency/item market. Capitalism's "supply and demand" are powerful forces. It comes down to a cost/benefit scenario, where game publishers have to decide what costs they are willing to pay for what level of benefit. No amount of resources will actually eliminate RMT, but any amount of resources will result in some level of benefit. From another perspective, players have to decide what risks they are willing to take for the benefits of RMT--a risk/benefit scenario. The best the game publishers can realistically expect is for the "average" customer to believe that the risks associated with RMT outweigh the benefits. Banning IP's? If America still has illegal immigrants, counterfeit money, , murder, and crack *****, I doubt such an obvious solution really is. Your Money or Your Life: the journal of a space pirate
Komen Gallente Trinity Nova Trinity Nova Alliance	Posted - 2008.09.25 00:57:00 - [48] Lol at people responding to racist trolling. That is all. Seriously. "I read it on Wikipedia." Yeah, because that's such an authoritative information source.
Zezug Caldari Vice And Valour	Posted - 2008.09.25 01:36:00 - [49] Yea lets do a reverse Great Firewall. Maybe it could be just as successful as the original one is. Oh wait... people get past that one pretty often, and that is run by a gov't that does not want its people to have free access. Do you really think that any company could accomplish it?
Dashhammer II Amarr O RLY corp YTMND.	Posted - 2008.09.25 09:33:00 - [50] One of the horrible facts that CCP has to contend with is that gold selling... is a more lucrative business than the MMORPG business. Why do you think they started the whole GTC for isk thing? It allows the isk farmers to quietly move their isk around and at the same time... makes a bit of profit for them as well. If CCP could get away with selling it's own isk for inflated prices... do you really think they wouldn't do it? Lets take a quick step to the left of that question and ask 'How do we know they are not?' - Dashhammer II
Berious Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.09.25 11:42:00 - [51] There will always be isk sellers/farmers while there is money to be made selling isk. Banned accounts is an occupational hazard and just another business cost for them. Harsh punishments for the buyers is a far better way to reduce demand and therefore the farmers. Buyers generally care about their accounts and will think twice if a permaban is possible.
Sephy'Ra	Posted - 2008.09.25 12:13:00 - [52] Please correct me if this was just a random rumor but... Punkbuster! I heard some court has given them the right to ban people based on their hardware IDs (on a case to case basis). I specifically remember reading out CPU IDs and ban it. Whoever was banned there will need to purchase a new CPU in order to circumvent the ban. Like I said, perhaps its just some random myth.
H Lecter Gallente The Black Rabbits The Gurlstas Associates	Posted - 2008.09.25 13:12:00 - [53] Originally by: c0rn1 Well, why should you ban them right away. In Eve it'd be more fun if you just put a red big blinking cross on them and freeze their bank account. Let everybody shoot em once their case is proven. Give the GM a tool where he can mark those guys for everyone else killable everywhere. Just don't show it to them. And make these guys visible like a beacon across the solar system, so you can warp to them. So the community has some fun! Let us have some fun while we do boring shopping runs in empire! Rgrds c0rn1 That sounds like the most feasible and funniest solution to me! /signed
Cybele Lanier Amarr The Graduates Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.09.25 15:01:00 - [54] Originally by: Niccolado Starwalker last input from me to this very uncomfortable thread: OK! OK! what will stop them then???? Give me some input on what really CAN BE DONE?? Report, report, report. --------------- ""Minimum collateral damage" and "Entire star system" do not belong in the same sentence."
Khlitouris RegusII	Posted - 2008.09.25 15:14:00 - [55] Originally by: Niccolado Starwalker Edited by: Niccolado Starwalker on 23/09/2008 16:15:46 Originally by: Alz Shado How to Deal with Isk Sellers, by Mark Jacobs (an excerpt from here) Originally by: Mark Jacobs We donÆt wait and let them stay in the game and ban them en-masse, my guys ban their useless, time-consuming butts right away. We have a strike team whose sole job it is to get these guys off our servers as quickly as possible. You're doing it right. A better way is to IP block whole China! I have read from a dozen magazines now that 80% of the worlds ISK sellers come from China! This is simply plain fact! I cant remember what numbers of isk farmers/sellers we are speaking here, but I think it was more then like 100k farmers on MMOG world basis! If not much much more!! so yes! IP block the whole country. Create a superwall just like the chinese government do against their own. And keep it there until things the numbers have changed to like 20% sellers and 80% players in other online games! Maybe they can proxy around it, I dunno, but hopefully that can be stopped too. well using your logic they should ip ban the world as the other 20% obviously come from the rest of the world!!!!!
Veldya Guristari Freedom Fighters	Posted - 2008.09.25 15:32:00 - [56] Originally by: Jethro Jechonias Originally by: Niccolado Starwalker A better way is to IP block whole China! Right, because we don't want any legitimate customers from China on our server, and the IT staff at the farming sweat shops lack the basic compitence to set up a proxy to bipass the filter. They abuse the system because they can create constant streams of untraceable accounts. You can put bogus information for your details and fund your accounts entirely via GTC, in the god knows how few actually get caught there is no trace whatsoever to them so they lose an account which has no real value. Stopping that account costs them next to nothing. EVE should require registration of trial accounts to a valid credit card. Once you have a physical trace to a real person then you have greater scope to use the law to apprehend them or at least to ban them from creating more accounts. If one account gets banned then all accounts registered with that card get banned. ATM they can stop these accounts until they go blue in the face, they will just create a replacement account 5 seconds later, so you can not stop them. Registration makes it harder for them to do their business, makes it a lot harder for them them spam their business in-game. After you have registered, you should only then be able to use GTCs.
supr3m3justic3 Caldari ACE'S OVER 8'S	Posted - 2008.09.25 15:58:00 - [57] Originally by: Kuar Z'thain Originally by: Niccolado Starwalker I did not learn all that much during my time in the millitary a long time ago, but one thing I remember: if you are fighting a war, ensure you are using maximum firepower you have available to you! And the smartest and best tactics! So.... you want to carpet-bomb that village over there cause it's .05% infested with insurgents? Maybe we need some smarter tactics..... Hell yea....remember when the jap's came and bomb pearl harbor.....back when we had a spine....... We went right back over there and blew their ass's up....guess who we didnt here from after that..... so you sometime you have to sacrifice few to gain power to take over the world...ah ahah ahha ah aha aha (o wait we are cowards now)((god damn politics)) __________________________________________________
Josef Odinssen	Posted - 2008.09.26 01:05:00 - [58] the isk farmers are basically the games equivelent of real life money counterfeiters, but in this respect they are basically stealing money (via resource farming) from genuine players. IMHO the best solution is for CCP to create a Concord Sanctioned player task force, as someone pointed out the devs dont have resources to police all the isk farmers all day, but there are plenty of players with time and boredom who would relish the opportunity to indulge in some state sponsored isk farming murder. so: Since the isk they are farming is being farmed from resources belong to players, then allow players to police them, as someone pointed out its not a work of genius to scan the galaxy for players called xeterhteteht sat in a roid belt all day grinding veldspar etc, so player task force nails said iskies farmer and collects said farmers stash of iskies as a bounty to fund state issue BS iskie farmer pwnage mobiles. job done. obviously some carebears will get caught in the fray, but hey how that could be considered a bonus in some quarters and you cant make a omelette without breaking eggs. or carebears.

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