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How Much Does A Falcon Affect Your Decision To Engage?

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ArmyOfMe Pernicious Creed Vendetta Alliance.	Posted - 2008.09.24 11:38:00 - [31] Originally by: BiggestT Also ppl dont realise that an interceptor can still get to speeds more or less similar post nano as is today..So that argument is moot. dunno if you have tried the changes, but i can promise you that my interceptor with the nano changes that was on sisi was nowere near the same speed as i have on tq. closer to 1/3 of it actually Originally by: deadmaus Because by the time we had calmed Plague down after he heard BoB were back in the vicinity it was too late to do anything
Ceremony Garp	Posted - 2008.09.24 11:45:00 - [32] Originally by: ArmyOfMe Originally by: BiggestT Also ppl dont realise that an interceptor can still get to speeds more or less similar post nano as is today..So that argument is moot. dunno if you have tried the changes, but i can promise you that my interceptor with the nano changes that was on sisi was nowere near the same speed as i have on tq. closer to 1/3 of it actually ArmyOfMe, Does that really matter chap? In other words, doesn't that mean you just take a few seconds longer to get to the Falcon but still have the same effect when you do? Or does it mean the Falcon has enough time to gtfo or warp to another cloakspot [or whatever the correct terminology is, lol] before you engage him/her?
Ceremony Garp	Posted - 2008.09.24 11:46:00 - [33] Originally by: BiggestT ...Sorry for the derail op, just trying to set ppl straight :P Lol, no worries chap. I'm bound to do it myself sooner or later Besides, healthy rebuttal is welcome.
ArmyOfMe Pernicious Creed Vendetta Alliance.	Posted - 2008.09.24 11:48:00 - [34] Originally by: Ceremony Garp Or does it mean the Falcon has enough time to gtfo or warp to another cloakspot [or whatever the correct terminology is, lol] before you engage him/her? it meens that the falcon will have over twice as long before he has to warp to his next spot, making him rather impossible to catch for a close range gang at least. Originally by: deadmaus Because by the time we had calmed Plague down after he heard BoB were back in the vicinity it was too late to do anything
Cautet Killer Koalas Kingdom of Butan	Posted - 2008.09.24 11:51:00 - [35] i. Nothing can be balanced around 2 v 1 unless CCP start messing with chances to hit if focus firing, or max number of opponents you can have on you or some such. If he brought a damnation wouldn't that have been just as unpleasant? ii. How many ships would want to even go 1 v 1 vs a curse? Having said that, cloakers are harder to spot so have an advantage of suprise. Falcons may be popular (partly due to 1 thread per day in ships and modules about them) but all the cloaking recons are capable of suprising you in a bad way; yes, even the Pilgrim. Having said that it would depend what ship I am in vs falcon or vs rapier or vs pilgrim or arazu. And what I was fighting. Worst thing about falcon would be losing lock on target at a bad moment. It doesn't make many ships easier to kill. Whereas rapier, pilgrim, arazu, do.
BiggestT Caldari Space Oddysey Pupule 'Ohana	Posted - 2008.09.24 11:57:00 - [36] Quote: dunno if you have tried the changes, but i can promise you that my interceptor with the nano changes that was on sisi was nowere near the same speed as i have on tq. closer to 1/3 of it actually 1/3!? I saw that base speeds were not affected, and thought that the mwd chages and overdrive changes wld affect it a little.. I thought that simply fitting nano-fibres and say one oi would get you to at least 2/3? Didnt realise it was such a harsh change, or did u just use an overdrive injector fit? Awesome EVE history
Ceremony Garp	Posted - 2008.09.24 11:58:00 - [37] Originally by: Cautet ...ii. How many ships would want to even go 1 v 1 vs a curse?... Agreed. Jumping into a system in my Curse is almost guaranteed to empty the system. Apart of course, from those too young to realise or haven't checked their scanner. And those pilots are usually in ships not worth engaging like 2 month old Catalyst pilots, etc. In other words, you're about as welcome as a fart in a spacesuit.
Kazuma Saruwatari Caldari	Posted - 2008.09.24 12:02:00 - [38] @ topic title/question It affects it greatly only iff we have less than 6 people to take down the falcon/'s gang. Else, if I know a falcon is in the enemy gang, I just jump to my FoF Drake. -
Zhula Guixgrixks Increasing Success by Lowering Expectations Vanguard.	Posted - 2008.09.24 12:05:00 - [39] Falcons can be anoying, but I would engage if we have another Recon (or even EAS, esp. Sentinel) on our side. I would also engage in drone boats. I myself have a (almost) maxed Falcon pilot, but: "...I'm bored of jamming..." and I'm bored too of jamming and prefer other ships.
Malcanis RuffRyders Axiom Empire	Posted - 2008.09.24 12:05:00 - [40] Originally by: BiggestT Originally by: LadyLubU2 Falcons destroyed the last tiny bit of solo pvp c/d? Nerf falcons, no ship should be able to make sure 3-4 people get removed from the battlefield.. nerf idiots that know nothing about ship roles etc This. There is no "sure" where falcons are involved, I can tell you that. Except that some people sure seem to think that you automagically get a complete set of 200Km bookmarks around every celestial object in New Eden when you buy your first one. Oh, and that Falcons can jump from system to system without using a gate. And that they can get into warp faster than a speeding round of Spike M.
Simon Ahr'man Minmatar	Posted - 2008.09.24 12:07:00 - [41] if we see a falcon in teh hostiel gang, we log in our falcon alt(s). besides, we always carry eccm. shudnt everyone in this day and age?
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated	Posted - 2008.09.24 12:11:00 - [42] Originally by: Simon Ahr'man if we see a falcon in teh hostiel gang, we log in our falcon alt(s). besides, we always carry eccm. shudnt everyone in this day and age? You still aint soloing jack zhit even with eccm if your opponents have a falcon. ----------------------------------------- [Video] Support Barrage
Ceremony Garp	Posted - 2008.09.24 12:15:00 - [43] Originally by: Zhula Guixgrixks ...I myself have a (almost) maxed Falcon pilot, but: "...I'm bored of jamming..." and I'm bored too of jamming and prefer other ships. Zhula, Malcanis also mentioned being bored jamming too. Does your FC, gangleader whoemever, always expect you to fly your Falcon? You ever said something similar to him? Originally by: Malcanis Having a Falcon in gang (ie: usually me) means that we are willing to engage larger gangs than the one we're in. Although lately I've been telling FCs to get bent: I'm bored of jamming, and it's someone else's turn. I'm wondering nif there's agonna' be a Falcon pilot backlash soon, lol. A 'boredom nerf'.
Horeta	Posted - 2008.09.24 12:16:00 - [44] Falcon is only jam-ship, that have a chance to be alive after fight.
Horeta	Posted - 2008.09.24 12:17:00 - [45] Edited by: Horeta on 24/09/2008 12:17:04 dobblepost
Ceremony Garp	Posted - 2008.09.24 12:17:00 - [46] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: Simon Ahr'man if we see a falcon in teh hostiel gang, we log in our falcon alt(s). besides, we always carry eccm. shudnt everyone in this day and age? You still aint soloing jack zhit even with eccm if your opponents have a falcon. Simon, Sorry to point this out, and I don't wish to appear rude but as Lyria mentions, I fly solo and the question was primarily geared towards that aspect.
ArmyOfMe Pernicious Creed Vendetta Alliance.	Posted - 2008.09.24 12:17:00 - [47] Originally by: BiggestT Quote: dunno if you have tried the changes, but i can promise you that my interceptor with the nano changes that was on sisi was nowere near the same speed as i have on tq. closer to 1/3 of it actually 1/3!? I saw that base speeds were not affected, and thought that the mwd chages and overdrive changes wld affect it a little.. I thought that simply fitting nano-fibres and say one oi would get you to at least 2/3? Didnt realise it was such a harsh change, or did u just use an overdrive injector fit? i used my standard tranq fittings and even upgraded from low to high grade snakes on sisi, and still ships like my vaga went at half the speed it does currently. so for the falcon the nano nerf is actually quite a big boost as it will be a hell of a lot harder to get in range. thats why i want the range of ecm to be looked at once the nano nerf happens. If that doesnt happen we will be back here soon seeing ppl say that the only way to kill a falcon is a sniping bs, and then the whines start again just like ppl whined about having to use specialised ships and mods to stop nanos Originally by: deadmaus Because by the time we had calmed Plague down after he heard BoB were back in the vicinity it was too late to do anything
LadyLubU2 Caldari Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2008.09.24 12:22:00 - [48] Originally by: Ceremony Garp Originally by: LadyLubU2 Falcons destroyed the last tiny bit of solo pvp c/d? Nerf falcons, no ship should be able to make sure 3-4 people get removed from the battlefield.. LadyLubU2, I don't know if I can agree with that tbh. I've always played under the assumption that every obstacle can be adapted to and hopefully overcome. This is the part i dont agree with with you. ECCM works partially, but sure isnt enough to get jammed less, even two ECCM's doesnt give much more chance. So...is ECM broken or is ECCM broken? Thats the big question tbh.
Horeta	Posted - 2008.09.24 12:29:00 - [49] Originally by: LadyLubU2 Originally by: Ceremony Garp Originally by: LadyLubU2 Falcons destroyed the last tiny bit of solo pvp c/d? Nerf falcons, no ship should be able to make sure 3-4 people get removed from the battlefield.. LadyLubU2, I don't know if I can agree with that tbh. I've always played under the assumption that every obstacle can be adapted to and hopefully overcome. This is the part i dont agree with with you. ECCM works partially, but sure isnt enough to get jammed less, even two ECCM's doesnt give much more chance. So...is ECM broken or is ECCM broken? Thats the big question tbh. if you woule be able to conter with only 1 mod a whole specialisated ship, that ship would be pointless.
ArmyOfMe Pernicious Creed Vendetta Alliance.	Posted - 2008.09.24 12:30:00 - [50] Originally by: Horeta Originally by: LadyLubU2 Originally by: Ceremony Garp Originally by: LadyLubU2 Falcons destroyed the last tiny bit of solo pvp c/d? Nerf falcons, no ship should be able to make sure 3-4 people get removed from the battlefield.. LadyLubU2, I don't know if I can agree with that tbh. I've always played under the assumption that every obstacle can be adapted to and hopefully overcome. This is the part i dont agree with with you. ECCM works partially, but sure isnt enough to get jammed less, even two ECCM's doesnt give much more chance. So...is ECM broken or is ECCM broken? Thats the big question tbh. if you woule be able to conter with only 1 mod a whole specialisated ship, that ship would be pointless. i dont think anyone wants eccm to be a 100% counter to falcons, but it would help if eccm were a bit more effective then what they are atm Originally by: deadmaus Because by the time we had calmed Plague down after he heard BoB were back in the vicinity it was too late to do anything
Ceremony Garp	Posted - 2008.09.24 12:34:00 - [51] Originally by: LadyLubU2 Originally by: Ceremony Garp Originally by: LadyLubU2 Falcons destroyed the last tiny bit of solo pvp c/d? Nerf falcons, no ship should be able to make sure 3-4 people get removed from the battlefield.. LadyLubU2, I don't know if I can agree with that tbh. I've always played under the assumption that every obstacle can be adapted to and hopefully overcome. This is the part i dont agree with with you. ECCM works partially, but sure isnt enough to get jammed less, even two ECCM's doesnt give much more chance. So...is ECM broken or is ECCM broken? Thats the big question tbh. Fair comment. And one I will leave to others with much more knowledge than I tbh. I've tried the ECM burst Pilgrim a couple of times, but the ECM only really worked on BS sized ships. The times I fired it up against BC's and the like, nothing really happened.
Keitaro Baka Babylon Scientific and Industrial Enterprises Babylon Project	Posted - 2008.09.24 12:57:00 - [52] Basically (back to the OP) a falcon is a great way to stop solo-ers from engaging. Even if you have a pimped up vindicator that could take on multiple enemy fighting ships, a single falcon could just jam you down easily, leaving you with a very expensive tanking ship. It might still tank it pretty well, but it's hard to kill anything. It's true that that's one of the reasons why many of the 'solo movie kings' usually have an alt or two standing by (I remember a few times where solo mega's would have falcon alts hanging around and Kessah uses the neut transport alt with cap charges for tank). As someone who is used to having fleets of falcons invading (the last nice 'roaming gang' that invaded had 13 falcons out of 60-ish gang) I can honestly say falcons completly win battles, skirmishes and camps versus solo/small gang unless you can chase it off quickly (or jam it with your own falcon). ECCM is nice and gets a more efficient in larger groups, if the enemy falcon only has few targets then, really, they only help in specific scenarios. One of the problems of ECCM is you really want 2 of them (getting mostly 40 points with 1 eccm, with falcons having about 13 points per racial jammer, 1/3 is still bad) and mid slots are tackle slots.. to be jam proof means you can't tackle or can't tank that well. Amarr have it really bad, with mostly up to 4 mid slots, 3 being the usual.. Engaging a group where you know (pure numbers) that the enemy falcon can keep 2 jammers on you is something I would generally not do .. All the stuff above does not necessarily reflect my corp, my alliance or even me.. Drone guide..
Omarvelous Caldari Destry's Lounge	Posted - 2008.09.24 13:37:00 - [53] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: Stuart Price Originally by: LadyLubU2 Falcons destroyed the last tiny bit of solo pvp c/d? Nerf falcons, no ship should be able to make sure 3-4 people get removed from the battlefield.. No you're absolutely right. Nerf the Falcon's jamming ability - it can always use it's other abilities to... oh. Nerf weapons, it's not right that one ship can potentially blow up 3 or 4 others. In other news, Falcons are a) not quite as obscenely powerful as many seem to think and b) very, very fragile. How about nerfing their range down to 100km? That way they can only be used in gangs as support jammers and not 200km immune to interception pocket aces. So no jamming at low-sec gates? If you're cutting their range in half - you would at least need to double their effective hp. __________________________________________________ Sup brosef! Destry's Lounge is looking for a few good drunks - contact me in game.
Cpt Branko Surge.	Posted - 2008.09.24 13:43:00 - [54] Originally by: BiggestT 1/3!? I saw that base speeds were not affected, and thought that the mwd chages and overdrive changes wld affect it a little.. They affect it a lot, and the ability to fit the interceptor for extra speed at expense of cost (polycarbon fits and more) is gone. Polycarbons on top of a 2x OD II + nanofiber II fit are ~~100%~~ 99% useless for speed. Even for a plain T2 fit which is affected the least, speaking in percentages, the MWD + OD + nanofiber* nerf (given how 2x OD II+1x nano II was common) you take a significant speed hit. One of my gripes with the MWD + OD nerf is the butchering of interceptors as a extra casuality, even though the nerf was not aimed at interceptors. *Nanofibers alone, meaning fitting one speed module on a ship, are still useful, but they are entirely useless if you are going to use two or more speed modules. OD + istab > 2x nanofiber, and they're totally out of place otherwise. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Cpt Branko Surge.	Posted - 2008.09.24 13:45:00 - [55] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 24/09/2008 13:49:35 Edited by: Cpt Branko on 24/09/2008 13:46:34 Originally by: Omarvelous So no jamming at low-sec gates? Well, you can't really field nanos / etc at low-sec gates either (and pure snipers are also very iffy if you have to jump in and fight). Other recons have to be tank-fit to have 'hit and run' viability under sentries. Sounds fine. Originally by: Omarvelous If you're cutting their range in half - you would at least need to double their effective hp. Nothing wrong with giving them double the EHP really. 100km still protects you from short range fire, while giving medium ranged ships a chance and damps more effective. Makes it trickier to use on a alt because you'd have to spend more attention not to get caught by a speed-fit ship, but I don't really see a problem with that. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated	Posted - 2008.09.24 13:47:00 - [56] Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 24/09/2008 13:47:03 Originally by: Omarvelous So no jamming at low-sec gates? If you're cutting their range in half - you would at least need to double their effective hp. The other recons operate at around 40km range. The "new" falcon at around 100km? Reasonable thing would be that its ehp should be around half the other recons, right? If it were up to me Id just stacking nerf ecm just like all other ew but make it bit more effective and have 100km range approx. That way people can fit 3 ecm and rest tank and all is good. ----------------------------------------- [Video] Support Barrage
Hardtail Red Dawn Empire	Posted - 2008.09.24 13:47:00 - [57] I think we should introduce a little mini-game every time you want to jam someone! Like, a little ball goes really quick right to left ( obviously multispecs would ZOOOOM by like a crazy person! ) and you gotta click in the middle to get a jam! then if you dont get it just right you just jam for a shorter period of time. c/d?
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated	Posted - 2008.09.24 13:50:00 - [58] Originally by: Hardtail I think we should introduce a little mini-game every time you want to jam someone! Like, a little ball goes really quick right to left ( obviously multispecs would ZOOOOM by like a crazy person! ) and you gotta click in the middle to get a jam! then if you dont get it just right you just jam for a shorter period of time. c/d? Yup and they should also add manual joystick manouvering of ships. Would be awsome. Really. ----------------------------------------- [Video] Support Barrage
Cown Caldari Xenophobes	Posted - 2008.09.24 14:19:00 - [59] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer You can pretty much forget soloing if you know they have a falcon. You either need your own falcon alt to counter it or a gang. This, thx.
BiggestT Caldari Space Oddysey Pupule 'Ohana	Posted - 2008.09.24 14:25:00 - [60] Originally by: ArmyOfMe Originally by: BiggestT Quote: dunno if you have tried the changes, but i can promise you that my interceptor with the nano changes that was on sisi was nowere near the same speed as i have on tq. closer to 1/3 of it actually 1/3!? I saw that base speeds were not affected, and thought that the mwd chages and overdrive changes wld affect it a little.. I thought that simply fitting nano-fibres and say one oi would get you to at least 2/3? Didnt realise it was such a harsh change, or did u just use an overdrive injector fit? i used my standard tranq fittings and even upgraded from low to high grade snakes on sisi, and still ships like my vaga went at half the speed it does currently. so for the falcon the nano nerf is actually quite a big boost as it will be a hell of a lot harder to get in range. thats why i want the range of ecm to be looked at once the nano nerf happens. If that doesnt happen we will be back here soon seeing ppl say that the only way to kill a falcon is a sniping bs, and then the whines start again just like ppl whined about having to use specialised ships and mods to stop nanos i know the vaga wont be v. fast but did you check interceptors? i thought theyd at least stillbe able to go 4-6k Awesome EVE history

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