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Gneeznow Minmatar North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.09.25 22:52:00 - [1] It seems to me that hictors are the new drakes in low sec these days, everywhere I go there is onyx's and broadsword's, imho these ships are broken in low sec, they can completely laugh off the damage of sentries + whatever I'm flying, even in a geddon or mega with sentries on my side, they can tank and jump out, in fact seems I'm seeing a repeating trend A LOT lately of hictors on the gate + falcons 200km off, hic's laugh off the sentry damage, falcons fight outside sentry range. I think hictors should be allowed to use their focused point in low sec same as they cant use their bubble in low sec, instead they should have to fit a scram like other ships
NoNah	Posted - 2008.09.25 22:55:00 - [2] Edited by: NoNah on 25/09/2008 22:57:13 Originally by: Gneeznow It seems to me that hictors are the new drakes in low sec these days, everywhere I go there is onyx's and broadsword's, imho these ships are broken in low sec, they can completely laugh off the damage of sentries + whatever I'm flying, even in a geddon or mega with sentries on my side, they can tank and jump out, in fact seems I'm seeing a repeating trend A LOT lately of hictors on the gate + falcons 200km off, hic's laugh off the sentry damage, falcons fight outside sentry range. I think hictors should be allowed to use their focused point in low sec same as they cant use their bubble in low sec, instead they should have to fit a scram like other ships That would bring back the entire Motherships and titans in lowsec issue again, now wouldn't it? I would however agree that they should limit the scripts to not work on anything, but... just removing them isn't really the answer. Parrots, commence! Postcount: 555085
Cmndr Griff Opinicus Operations	Posted - 2008.09.25 23:03:00 - [3] Well maybe the focused script could only jam super-capitals? I just ignore HICS if I can, like drakes they are just slow kills and usually just baiting in some way or another. Useful links: Jump-planner
Cpt Branko Surge.	Posted - 2008.09.25 23:09:00 - [4] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 25/09/2008 23:10:00 I don't know - last Broadsword I killed we took down with two gank Hurricanes - he agressed so he couldn't jump through, since he counted on us getting bbq-ed by sentries + him before we die. Nearly did, too, I got out in 96 structure hitpoints after he died - thanks god for the 3% hull HP implant Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Liang Nuren No Salvation	Posted - 2008.09.25 23:27:00 - [5] I know where you're coming from, Gneez, but I dunno. The problem that you're describing has nothing at all to do with its regular point, and everything to do with passive tanking. Perhaps you should look a bit deeper at the problem than simply crying about HIC's having infini-points. -Liang --
Ljonynja	Posted - 2008.09.25 23:45:00 - [6] Edited by: Ljonynja on 25/09/2008 23:45:42 Humm. I am usually just as stuck while under the influence of a regular point as I am under an infinipoint. =/ And they just happen to be able to do a bit of "traditional" gate-combat as well. I do not see it as a huge problem. =/
Commander Thrawn the united	Posted - 2008.09.25 23:49:00 - [7] please quit eve already. HIC are fine. if you cannot kill one with a mega or geddon when it solo tanking sentries you are doing something very wrong. Not only that but you forgot to mention that now dictor has any DPS. seems pretty balanced to me. you just fail.
MalVortex Reaper Industries Eternal Rapture	Posted - 2008.09.25 23:54:00 - [8] ITT: Totally missing why the infipoint and a strong passive tank exists on a cruiser-hull platform. They don't do damage, they don't move fast, they don't get RRed. They are obvious bait (like drakes). They can't bubble in lowsec. Honestly, whats the problem? For unstabbed ships the difference between infi and 1 strength points is, oh i dono, none, "non-combat" travel fits should be prepared to cloak/warp. Everybody else would have gotten multiple pointed anyways. They tank and jump out. Ok... So what? A fair number of battleships could do that (esp. if we start looking at implants). HACs can run, recons cloak. Its rare enough anymore for a ship to have a worthwhile local tank, why exactly is a specialized super-heavy tackler doing its job a problem? Nice stealth insertion of falcons too. Not like they have anything to do with HICtors at all.
Commander Thrawn the united	Posted - 2008.09.26 00:04:00 - [9] Originally by: MalVortex ITT: Totally missing why the infipoint and a strong passive tank exists on a cruiser-hull platform. They don't do damage, they don't move fast, they don't get RRed. They are obvious bait (like drakes). They can't bubble in lowsec. Honestly, whats the problem? For unstabbed ships the difference between infi and 1 strength points is, oh i dono, none, "non-combat" travel fits should be prepared to cloak/warp. Everybody else would have gotten multiple pointed anyways. They tank and jump out. Ok... So what? A fair number of battleships could do that (esp. if we start looking at implants). HACs can run, recons cloak. Its rare enough anymore for a ship to have a worthwhile local tank, why exactly is a specialized super-heavy tackler doing its job a problem? Nice stealth insertion of falcons too. Not like they have anything to do with HICtors at all. this tbh
Vaal Erit Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2008.09.26 00:52:00 - [10] A good gank BS can waste a HIC before it can jump out, I've done it, you have to be careful with a turret BS because you are shooting at a cruiser remember. HICs are slow, fat and have the tank of a BS or worse. Usually HICs have backup around. BUT (and this is a huge but, lol buttes) HICs are expensive being T2 cruisers and usually rigged. If they bait you, then you bait them back and kill them. 2x hurricanes + ECCM stabber of doom should be able to make short work of a HIC+faclon combo. Noobs with a HIC on a low-sec gate will quickly be robbed of a lot of isk. You are lucky you get HIC + falcon combos, I get HIC + Nyx combos. -- http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html
Noelle Fay SniggWaffe	Posted - 2008.09.26 02:24:00 - [11] Go away Gneez, I'm en route to phobos. -- -- -- -- -- -- -- The secret to success, whether it's women or money, is knowing when to quit. I oughta know: I'm divorced and broke.
Liang Nuren No Salvation	Posted - 2008.09.26 04:00:00 - [12] Originally by: Noelle Fay Go away Gneez, I'm en route to phobos. I already got to the Broadsword. ;-) -Liang --
Terianna Eri Amarr Scrutari	Posted - 2008.09.26 04:06:00 - [13] Gneez, are you just trolling? honest question BTW onyxs and broadswords are shield tanks so start bringing out your leipnir and l0rpion to take them out __________________________________ Originally by: Arthur Frayn How much to ruin all your holes, luv?
BiggestT Caldari Space Oddysey Pupule 'Ohana	Posted - 2008.09.26 04:09:00 - [14] Originally by: Gneeznow It seems to me that hictors are the new drakes in low sec these days, everywhere I go there is onyx's and broadsword's, imho these ships are broken in low sec, they can completely laugh off the damage of sentries + whatever I'm flying, even in a geddon or mega with sentries on my side, they can tank and jump out, in fact seems I'm seeing a repeating trend A LOT lately of hictors on the gate + falcons 200km off, hic's laugh off the sentry damage, falcons fight outside sentry range. I think hictors should be allowed to use their focused point in low sec same as they cant use their bubble in low sec, instead they should have to fit a scram like other ships The damage and lock time of these things mean any ship that wldve got away before still gets away now, and if they fit too many sensor bosoters than itll be harder to permatank the gate guns. Also its called a scout :P Awesome EVE history
BiggestT Caldari Space Oddysey Pupule 'Ohana	Posted - 2008.09.26 04:11:00 - [15] Originally by: Liang Nuren , and everything to do with passive tanking. Dunno Liang, i wldnt excactly say passive tnaking is overpowered. Look at the nighthawk, nerfing passive tnaking wld make it even worse.. While balanced ships like the vulture wld get hit hard Awesome EVE history
Liang Nuren No Salvation	Posted - 2008.09.26 04:26:00 - [16] Originally by: BiggestT Dunno Liang, i wldnt excactly say passive tnaking is overpowered. Look at the nighthawk, nerfing passive tnaking wld make it even worse.. While balanced ships like the vulture wld get hit hard If you don't think passive tanking is overpowered, then you're a fool. And I don't just mean passive shield tanking (regen based) - but hitpoint tanking in general. Things have gotten so bad that the standard recommendation is simply to ignore active tanking bonuses and fit plates and hitpoints anyway. Additionally, I challenge you to come up with active shield tanked fits that are reasonable substitutions for passive (regen) fits. Hint: You can't, because they don't really exist shy of crystals and absurdly expensive mods. TBQFH (please bear in mind that I have a character with 30M+ 100% caldari dedicated SP and I've scored hundreds of solo kills in my Drake), I'd be perfectly fine with stack nerfing shield recharge rate if they boosted the powergrid for the appropriate ships. Think about it and you'll see that I'm undeniably right on this one. :-/ -Liang --
Sokratesz Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.09.26 05:48:00 - [17] It's funny really because hictors aren't that effective for holding a supercap at all, in low sec. Reason is that in low sec they can only use their focused point which takes a lot more cap, and whilst doing so, they cannot be remote repped.
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2008.09.26 06:15:00 - [18] Edited by: Merin Ryskin on 26/09/2008 06:14:58 Originally by: Liang Nuren If you don't think passive tanking is overpowered, then you're a fool. And I don't just mean passive shield tanking (regen based) - but hitpoint tanking in general. Things have gotten so bad that the standard recommendation is simply to ignore active tanking bonuses and fit plates and hitpoints anyway. And you're insane if you think this is ever going to change. Unless the entire population of EVE somehow forgets about this thing called "focused fire", HP tanks will always be better than active tanks. The only way to make active tanking even remotely comparable would be to boost it to such an extent that you literally could never kill a ship 1v1. You'd run out of ammo long before either ship would die (stealth Amarr boost?), as even a full-gank blasterthron can't come anywhere near the DPS required to break a useful active tank. In short: useful active tanking in PvP = blob boost = no useful active tanking in PvP.
Liang Nuren No Salvation	Posted - 2008.09.26 07:05:00 - [19] Edited by: Liang Nuren on 26/09/2008 07:07:14 Originally by: Merin Ryskin And you're insane if you think this is ever going to change. Unless the entire population of EVE somehow forgets about this thing called "focused fire", HP tanks will always be better than active tanks. The only way to make active tanking even remotely comparable would be to boost it to such an extent that you literally could never kill a ship 1v1. You'd run out of ammo long before either ship would die (stealth Amarr boost?), as even a full-gank blasterthron can't come anywhere near the DPS required to break a useful active tank. In short: useful active tanking in PvP = blob boost = no useful active tanking in PvP. Believe it or not, I'm well aware of this.... I've been trying to think of a good solution for ages. -Liang Ed: Also, the post was about regen tanking, not just hitpoint tanking. It's also overpowered compared to any reasonable rep setup because it has both the advantages of absurdly powerful unneutable indefinite boosters coupled with truly absurd amounts of hitpoints. ;-) There's virtually no good reason to ever active shield tank a ship that passive tanks well. --
Sokratesz Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.09.26 07:08:00 - [20] They could unroll the past two HP increases for one..and decrease the raw HP bonuses that extender and plates give. Would make eve alot more interesting, because the HP buffs only made it worse.
Rawr Cristina Caldari Omerta Syndicate	Posted - 2008.09.26 07:09:00 - [21] Originally by: Liang Nuren It's also overpowered compared to any reasonable rep setup because it has both the advantages of absurdly powerful unneutable indefinite boosters coupled with truly absurd amounts of hitpoints. ;-) and 1/3rd the damage - Infectious -
Liang Nuren No Salvation	Posted - 2008.09.26 07:23:00 - [22] Edited by: Liang Nuren on 26/09/2008 07:29:22 Edited by: Liang Nuren on 26/09/2008 07:25:43 Originally by: Rawr Cristina Originally by: Liang Nuren It's also overpowered compared to any reasonable rep setup because it has both the advantages of absurdly powerful unneutable indefinite boosters coupled with truly absurd amounts of hitpoints. ;-) and 1/3rd the damage No, not really. :) [Drake, HAM Drake] Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Internal Force Field Array I Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive Warp Disruptor II Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I Large Shield Extender II Invulnerability Field II Invulnerability Field II Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Terror Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Terror Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Terror Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Terror Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Terror Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Terror Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Terror Assault Missile [empty high slot] Core Defence Field Extender I Core Defence Field Extender I Core Defence Field Extender I Hobgoblin II x5 94K EHP / 180 DPS tank, 618 DPS offense [Drake, PST Drake] Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Invulnerability Field II Invulnerability Field II Warp Disruptor II Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile [empty high slot] Core Defence Field Purger I Core Defence Field Purger I Core Defence Field Purger I Hobgoblin II x5 83K EHP / 583 DPS tank, 467 offense 94K EHP / 180 DPS tank, 618 DPS offense This gives us 88% of the EHP, 324% of the tank, and 76% of the DPS (at 420% of the range). There are better fits out there on both the HAM and PST side. -Liang Ed: And before you rag on the PST fit... it's been battle tested exceedingly well. Also, please note that a typical Myrm will drop out ~518 DPS tanked and 588 DPS at 2km and only have 41.5K EHP. ;-) Ed2: And hell, the worst you can do is 349 DPS / 618 DPS = 56% of max full out gank DPS. --
Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.09.26 07:35:00 - [23] Originally by: Liang Nuren [ This gives us 88% of the EHP, 324% of the tank, and 76% of the DPS (at 420% of the range). There are better fits out there on both the HAM and PST side. And no speed, no tackling gear, no EWAR. Basically you are sacrificing considerable amounts all these things (damage, Speed, EWAR, Tackling, EHP) to be really good in one thing: regen. That is called especialization. And the game should have more of this, not less. That said if this game was meant to be played 1x1 I would say that it would be OP because very few ships can kill it solo. But as it is NOT the case, the game being a MMORPG and all, it is perfectly fine. ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Furb Killer Gallente The first genesis Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2008.09.26 07:45:00 - [24] Imo a falcon staying outside sentry gun range is a problem, heavy dictors arent. Forum eating my post twice in a row is also a problem btw.
Liang Nuren No Salvation	Posted - 2008.09.26 07:53:00 - [25] Originally by: Etho Demerzel And no speed, no tackling gear, no EWAR. It actually did have tackling gear... and I've used that exact fit multiple times to tackle people. You'll also note that the first fit (the "standard" HAM Drake) lacks ewar as well, so I don't know that you can really call it hurting for it by comparison. Also, I'm not really sure what kind of unbonused ewar you have in mind. The only really valid point that you have is that it gives up speed. Quote: Basically you are sacrificing considerable amounts all these things (damage, Speed, EWAR, Tackling, EHP) to be really good in one thing: regen. That is called especialization. And the game should have more of this, not less. Um, were you paying attention at all? It doesn't give up damage, it doesn't give up ewar (come on now, just what are you planning to fit in those mids... damps?!), it doesn't give up tackle, and it doesn't give up EHP. It trades speed for regen, and that's something that is pretty easy to gain back if you're needing it. Also, consider the HAM Drake vs a tanked up Hurricane: [Hurricane, Optimal] Medium Armor Repairer II Medium Armor Repairer II Armor Thermic Hardener II Armor Kinetic Hardener II Armor Explosive Hardener II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II 10MN MicroWarpdrive II Warp Disruptor II Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I Medium Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Cap Booster 800 425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M 425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M 425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M 425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M 425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M 425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Sabretooth Light Missile Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Sabretooth Light Missile Auxiliary Nano Pump I Auxiliary Nano Pump I Nanobot Accelerator I 36.8K EHP / 392 DPS tank, 489 DPS offense Thus, we can see that the PST Drake gets us: - Similar speed (1190 vs 1381) - Similar align time (10.6s) - More hitpoints (95.5K vs 36.8K) - A similar tank (187 vs 392) - More DPS (618 vs 489) - More range (20km vs 3+15) - Similar tackle/ewar capabilities The list really goes on and on in the ways a Drake is just flat out better than the Hurricane. Quote: That said if this game was meant to be played 1x1 I would say that it would be OP because very few ships can kill it solo. But as it is NOT the case, the game being a MMORPG and all, it is perfectly fine. Ok... it's not a 1v1 game. The Drake needed tackle why? :) -Liang --
Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.09.26 09:17:00 - [26] Edited by: Etho Demerzel on 26/09/2008 09:21:07 Originally by: Liang Nuren It actually did have tackling gear... and I've used that exact fit multiple times to tackle people. You'll also note that the first fit (the "standard" HAM Drake) lacks ewar as well, so I don't know that you can really call it hurting for it by comparison. Also, I'm not really sure what kind of unbonused ewar you have in mind. It does not have complete tackling as it lacks web AND speed. And I know none of your fittings use EWAR, but that does not mean a painter may not be useful in certain situations, especially in dealing with smaller targets. In your first fitting I could easily replace the web for my EWAR of choice. In your second it is impossible. That is what I meant. You are giving up the possibility to use anything other than tank, damage and your single point. Quote: Um, were you paying attention at all? It doesn't give up damage, it doesn't give up ewar (come on now, just what are you planning to fit in those mids... damps?!), it doesn't give up tackle, and it doesn't give up EHP. I am paying attention. You aren't: 1) You are sacrificing damage 76% means you need 31.5% more time to kill the same target if it is completely passive buffer. If it is active or passive regen it is much much worse. 2) You are sacrificing tackling capacity as you can't hold your targets in place. Most ships that can't fight you will simply run from you, and you won't be able to do a thing about it. 3) You are sacrificing your ability to run if you need to, or to reach a gate in case of need. If you need to move you are toast. If you need to stop your targets, sorry but no can do. Without MWD your point is reasonably useless too as you won't be able to prevent your target to simply run away. Basically it is a brick without the capacity to keep its target in place, without the capacity to hit smaller things and fast things, and without the damage to break the tank of bigger ships. It is a fair trade off for its great capacity to absorb damage. Oh and as you are using ACTIVE hardeners, if you are neuted your tank is severelly compromised and goes to something around 290 DPS. Quote: It trades speed for regen, and that's something that is pretty easy to gain back if you're needing it. Oh, is it? Elaborate, please. Quote: Thus, we can see that the PST Drake gets us: - Similar speed (1190 vs 1381) - Similar align time (10.6s) - More hitpoints (95.5K vs 36.8K) - A similar tank (187 vs 392) - More DPS (618 vs 489) - More range (20km vs 3+15) - Similar tackle/ewar capabilities The list really goes on and on in the ways a Drake is just flat out better than the Hurricane. Now we are reverting to the HAM drake and buffer tank, which was NOT what was being discussed, Liang. I expected more from you... But answering to your question, yes, the drake is overall better than the hurricane. And yes the hurricane should be able to pour a lot more damage than the drake with still a decent buffer tank. But it has more to do with projectile problems than anything else. Compare it to the harbinger now. Quote: Ok... it's not a 1v1 game. The Drake needed tackle why? :) It does not. As long as you have someone to do it for you. That is why the passive drake is a specialist setup. You will need other ships to suply for your deficiences. And if they don't do it well enough your whole gang ability to do anything becomes null. You are betting in specialist ships, there are good and bad points. As it should be. ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2008.09.26 09:23:00 - [27] Quote: Ed: And before you rag on the PST fit... it's been battle tested exceedingly well. Also, please note that a typical Myrm will drop out ~518 DPS tanked and 588 DPS at 2km and only have 41.5K EHP. ;-) Armour-tanked Myrm?
Sokratesz Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.09.26 09:26:00 - [28] CCP, just nerf hitpoints k? About half of what we have now will do fine.
Rajere No Trademark Notoriety Alliance	Posted - 2008.09.26 11:18:00 - [29] Quote: Compare it to the harbinger now. No point, the harbinger has identical slot layout as the Hurricane. It has more effective DPS due to increased range, but the eft numbers will still favor the Hurricane over the Harbinger, and we already know the Drake is better than the Hurricane. The Drake is by far the best battlecruiser in game. It doesn't have the best DPS but it's DPS is comparable, while it's EHP is atleast twice if not 3x as good as the battlecruisers which can out DPS it. How to Fail at Eve
Forum Chav	Posted - 2008.09.26 11:28:00 - [30] Originally by: Gneeznow ...I think hictors should be allowed to use their focused point in low sec same as they cant use their bubble in low sec, instead they should have to fit a scram like other ships Whoa! Back up a bit...I was gonna' get my main toon to train up for a HIC. I thought you could use that WDFG in low sec but not the bubble? It's the other way around?

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