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% raise in GTC price = % lost from dropped player accounts?

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Ballistic CEO The Ballistic Corporation	Posted - 2008.09.26 11:04:00 - [1] Like many I used to have 3 accounts. I sold one as soon as news of the GTC changes came out and the 2nd of my 3 will expire today and is unlikely to be renewed under GTC current market conditions. I had a look but im sure the maths/stats brainiacs amongst us could work this out better. Have CCP cannily included a projection for lost accounts into their price hike? Im aware that part of it is the dollars/euros thing but PLEASE dont argue about that here there are a gazillion other threads for you to do that. Im purely interested in: has CCPs bottom line changed or have the managed to produce enough extra income to cover lost accounts?
Haks'he Lirky Burning Bright Inc.	Posted - 2008.09.26 11:09:00 - [2] Originally by: Ballistic CEO Im purely interested in: has CCPs bottom line changed or have the managed to produce enough extra income to cover lost accounts? It is hard to theorize without data, are you sure CCP has to cover for lost accounts on the average? Is there any data that suggests that there is a negative trend in EVE growth?
Asantte	Posted - 2008.09.26 11:18:00 - [3] They have started offering Power of Two again where you can subscribe a second account for $50 for 6 months. So yes I'd say they have taken account loss due to GTC prices into consideration. GTC prices seem to be have leveled out currently after a sharp rise at 500 mil ISK per 60 day code which amounts to 250 million per 30 days per account. However it looks like CCP would much rather have people pay for their accounts with a credit card rather than with game time codes. Even though they would have made more money in this same 6 month period of time if instead they promoted people buying game time codes so that prices kept at sane levels and none would close their additional accounts (just 2x 60d code is already $64 and they are offering 3x 60d code for $50).
Julius Rigel House Rigel	Posted - 2008.09.26 11:18:00 - [4] Yawn. Frigate racing is fast and fun!
Sheriff Jones Amarr Clinical Experiment	Posted - 2008.09.26 11:21:00 - [5] If game is worth 10, with 10.000 accounts the profit is 100.000 If game goes to 11, and they lose 1000 players, they make 99.000 So it's around 1% to 1% ratio on price increase/lost players. Should be able to calculate the increase of price compared to lost accounts, even with an educated guess. My opinions represent the opinions of my corporation completely. I'm the CEO damnit.
5pinDizzy Amarr Umpteenth Podding	Posted - 2008.09.26 11:28:00 - [6] Edited by: 5pinDizzy on 26/09/2008 11:31:26 Let's go over this again. CCP won't care about lost "isk bought GTC accounts" because they never payed with real money and in most cases were never going to. What needs to be known is... Are GTC's been ramped up so high because there are fewer people buying them for real money, meaning price wars for the few around. PROBLEM FOR CCP OR Has the supply stayed the same and simply the demand has risen by a large amount? NOT REALLY A PROBLEM FOR CCP ...and from what you're saying, it looks like the 2nd option might be true, whereas the "GTC for isk" buyers were just blaming the farmers straight off, just trying to get people onside to keep their little setup secure I think.
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2008.09.26 11:29:00 - [7] the less players willing to buy would mean the prices would drop not go up. ONce the prices show a decline it means less people are buying game time with in game isk.
Sheriff Jones Amarr Clinical Experiment	Posted - 2008.09.26 11:30:00 - [8] Originally by: 5pinDizzy Are GTC's been ramped up so high because there are fewer people buying them for real money Well to be honest, CCP gets the cash one way or the other. And they even get the money from re-sales places, even if unused, as those places have bought them already. Every GTC is bought somewhere, unless CCP is selling GTC codes via isk? My opinions represent the opinions of my corporation completely. I'm the CEO damnit.
Roy Batty68 Caldari Immortal Dead	Posted - 2008.09.26 11:35:00 - [9] Originally by: 5pinDizzy Edited by: 5pinDizzy on 26/09/2008 11:31:26 Let's go over this again. CCP won't care about lost "isk bought GTC accounts" because they never payed with real money and in most cases were never going to. Have another think. Sig removed, inappropriate content. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Hugh Ruka Exploratio et Industria Morispatia	Posted - 2008.09.26 12:44:00 - [10] Originally by: 5pinDizzy Edited by: 5pinDizzy on 26/09/2008 11:31:26 Let's go over this again. CCP won't care about lost "isk bought GTC accounts" because they never payed with real money and in most cases were never going to. I wonder where all the GTCs come from ... perhaps they grow on trees ... --- SIG --- CSM: your support is needed !
pippan Gallente Synthetic Frontiers	Posted - 2008.09.26 12:50:00 - [11] posting in a "i-cant-pay-60-cents-a-day-so-eve-is-dying" thread ----
Bimjo Caldari SKULLDOGS	Posted - 2008.09.26 12:51:00 - [12] Edited by: Bimjo on 26/09/2008 12:52:35 lol to the guy and his mis-informed GTC theory (spindizzy) now I used to have 3 accounts,by next week I will be down to 1 account The current EVE sub price is good value for money for 1 account,but not for more
midge Mo'yb Antares Shipyards Vanguard.	Posted - 2008.09.26 12:53:00 - [13] Originally by: Ballistic CEO Like many I used to have 3 accounts. I sold one as soon as news of the GTC changes came out and the 2nd of my 3 will expire today and is unlikely to be renewed under GTC current market conditions. I had a look but im sure the maths/stats brainiacs amongst us could work this out better. Have CCP cannily included a projection for lost accounts into their price hike? Im aware that part of it is the dollars/euros thing but PLEASE dont argue about that here there are a gazillion other threads for you to do that. Im purely interested in: has CCPs bottom line changed or have the managed to produce enough extra income to cover lost accounts? Uh.. maybee y'know them people that wee selling them to make a quick buck in eve now cant afford to throw away ú20 to internet space ships (ú7-ú8 is easyer to throw than ú20 :P) so there is less supply... same demand.... prices go up....common sence? -----------------------------------------------
Shardrael Caldari Titan Industries Technology Team Shadow of xXDEATHXx	Posted - 2008.09.26 12:59:00 - [14] although my maths are not perfect gtc dollar costs compared with isk you get for that dollar have not changed to much. 10 of the old gtc's at a shy under 200 mil a pop would be about 2 bil for 150 bucks, 4 of the new ones for 40 a pop will sell for about 2 bil (500 a piece) so you are looking at a marginal increase but nothing serious and it cant be accounted for by price fluctuations in the gtc market. the real interesting bit is that the amount of time being bought for what is essentially stationary pricing has gone down a fair bit. used to be 15 a gtc for 30 days now 40 for 60 days etc. so basically cost going to ccp's wallet for time is about an increase of 33% again my maths are horrible but this if I had to guess could be written off to the decreasing price of the dollar and might be a stealth buff to their wallet in preperation for this. these are all just my speculation and of course have very little basis in anything other then my head. but basically the changes only really matter to those that buy gtc's purely for ingame currency and avoid all real money transactions having to do with this game. so where does that leave us. Well the market has shown it is willing to maintain the same dollar to isk ratio which means demand is still there if not higher then ever (/waves to isk farmers) however for those of you that actually relied on this transaction to play the game you have two choices option a.) be thankful there is an mmo out there that has a system in place to make it even possible to pay for gametime through ingame currency legitamately option b.) concerned consumer let me introduce to the shaft...... the shaft is going to give you a dental inspection via way of your colon, please grab your ankles and pray for lube.
Ballistic CEO The Ballistic Corporation	Posted - 2008.09.26 13:10:00 - [15] Edited by: Ballistic CEO on 26/09/2008 13:11:09 Originally by: pippan posting in a "i-cant-pay-60-cents-a-day-so-eve-is-dying" thread I shouldnt bite but im going to One of the other games i play is CoD4. I pay once, activision will continue to upgrade for a while then theyll release an expansion, upgrade that for a while then the game stays as it is til the next CoD hits. I base this off playing that line of games since RTCW. Although im aware of the server maintenance, staff fees and the several 'free' upgrades a year we receive I cant help but compare MMO pricing to other areas of the market. CoD4: pay once, free upgrades and support for 6 - 18 months dependant. MMO: pay every month, in some cases pay for upgrades and expansions. of course the number of people buying a product is going to factor into this and i can accept that, im just telling you my mindset: new release: ú40 one off payment. MMO: ú~100 pa so yes I do kind of object to any kind of price hike for this particular product. This thread however has NOTHING TO DO WITH THAT , im just an interested party speculating on how the company that builds this game works.
Havohej Minmatar Comply Or Die G00DFELLAS	Posted - 2008.09.26 13:12:00 - [16] Originally by: Roy Batty68 Originally by: 5pinDizzy Edited by: 5pinDizzy on 26/09/2008 11:31:26 Let's go over this again. CCP won't care about lost "isk bought GTC accounts" because they never payed with real money and in most cases were never going to. Have another think. Hi, 5pin. I'm not sure if you got what Roy there was trying to tell you, so I would like to elaborate for you and anyone else who didn't get it: It doesn't matter if you buy your GTC's with ISK - CCP still gets real money for it. You know why? Because the player you're buying the GTC from paid real money for it! So before you could ever give that GTC trader your half-a-billion ISK and 'beat the system' by not paying cash, CCP already got paid. @OP: Yes, every single time a player cancels their subscription, CCP raises the price a little bit to compensate. Every time a new player signs up, they lower the price of so that everything stays 'even' between real world and in-game ISK economy. (which part of this post represents the real views and opinions of Havohej?) Originally by: CCP Explorer You can still steal their stuff.
Shardrael Caldari Titan Industries Technology Team Shadow of xXDEATHXx	Posted - 2008.09.26 13:18:00 - [17] Originally by: Ballistic CEO Edited by: Ballistic CEO on 26/09/2008 13:11:09 Originally by: pippan posting in a "i-cant-pay-60-cents-a-day-so-eve-is-dying" thread I shouldnt bite but im going to One of the other games i play is CoD4. I pay once, activision will continue to upgrade for a while then theyll release an expansion, upgrade that for a while then the game stays as it is til the next CoD hits. I base this off playing that line of games since RTCW. Although im aware of the server maintenance, staff fees and the several 'free' upgrades a year we receive I cant help but compare MMO pricing to other areas of the market. CoD4: pay once, free upgrades and support for 6 - 18 months dependant. MMO: pay every month, in some cases pay for upgrades and expansions. of course the number of people buying a product is going to factor into this and i can accept that, im just telling you my mindset: new release: ú40 one off payment. MMO: ú~100 pa so yes I do kind of object to any kind of price hike for this particular product. This thread however has NOTHING TO DO WITH THAT , im just an interested party speculating on how the company that builds this game works. you are missing the most important part about an mmo though, a persistant world. Ironically we all shell out the big bucks for the games that keep on playing when we arent there.... go figure.
Doc Longfingers	Posted - 2008.09.26 13:39:00 - [18] Ever consider that CCP has the ability to manipulate the GTC price? All it would take is a number of ccp alts buying up most of the available GTC's with free ISK, just takes a stroke of a key. A maneuver like this would definitely create a huge demand and lower supply. The result would be the equivalent of what's happening now. Why would this type of manipulation be good for CCP you ask? It's easy, make GTC's cost so much ISK that players will start coughing up real money to play the game. Mucho Profitito! This sort of manipulation can be used for getting macro players off the roster too, all ccp has to do is flood the market with so much ice that the price drops to the equivalent of todays level. Another way to jack up the price of ISK-purchased-GTC's and increase profit would involve making the game more entertaining and user friendly. But that would involve real work, creativity and stuff like that. <Live Wrong and Prosper>
Kappas. Galaxy Punks Axiom Empire	Posted - 2008.09.26 13:40:00 - [19] Originally by: Ballistic CEO Edited by: Ballistic CEO on 26/09/2008 13:11:09 Originally by: pippan posting in a "i-cant-pay-60-cents-a-day-so-eve-is-dying" thread I shouldnt bite but im going to One of the other games i play is CoD4. I pay once, activision will continue to upgrade for a while then theyll release an expansion, upgrade that for a while then the game stays as it is til the next CoD hits. I base this off playing that line of games since RTCW. Although im aware of the server maintenance, staff fees and the several 'free' upgrades a year we receive I cant help but compare MMO pricing to other areas of the market. CoD4: pay once, free upgrades and support for 6 - 18 months dependant. MMO: pay every month, in some cases pay for upgrades and expansions. of course the number of people buying a product is going to factor into this and i can accept that, im just telling you my mindset: new release: ú40 one off payment. MMO: ú~100 pa so yes I do kind of object to any kind of price hike for this particular product. This thread however has NOTHING TO DO WITH THAT , im just an interested party speculating on how the company that builds this game works. In call of duty 4 activision or whoever it is don't have to pay for servers for their game, or anything else really. Plus you get to pay them ú1.50 per minute for their helpdesk support lol. __________________
Anaalys Fluuterby Caldari	Posted - 2008.09.26 13:41:00 - [20] The real reason for the GTC hike: 1) More expensive, hence more people will use other methods of payment and less ISK transfers hands. This makes it easier to find ISK sellers. 2) Last legal method of "buying" ISK, CCP is not so gently pushing players away from that. Their intention of removing this market was mentioned over a year ago. 3) As players use other methods of payment, it is easier to round up ALL their accounts when they bring out the BAN stick. ------------------------------------------------- Originally by: CCP Wrangler Not it isn't, people should be encouraged to get out in low sec space, but never forced to do so.
ArmyOfMe Pernicious Creed Vendetta Alliance.	Posted - 2008.09.26 14:00:00 - [21] Originally by: Doc Longfingers Why would this type of manipulation be good for CCP you ask? It's easy, make GTC's cost so much ISK that players will start coughing up real money to play the game. Mucho Profitito! /facepalm sigh Originally by: deadmaus Because by the time we had calmed Plague down after he heard BoB were back in the vicinity it was too late to do anything
Uzume Ame Gallente Dark Shadow Cartel	Posted - 2008.09.26 14:09:00 - [22] Originally by: Doc Longfingers Ever consider that CCP has the ability to manipulate the GTC price? All it would take is a number of ccp alts buying up most of the available GTC's with free ISK, just takes a stroke of a key. A maneuver like this would definitely create a huge demand and lower supply. The result would be the equivalent of what's happening now. Why would this type of manipulation be good for CCP you ask? It's easy, make GTC's cost so much ISK that players will start coughing up real money to play the game. Mucho Profitito! This sort of manipulation can be used for getting macro players off the roster too, all ccp has to do is flood the market with so much ice that the price drops to the equivalent of todays level. Another way to jack up the price of ISK-purchased-GTC's and increase profit would involve making the game more entertaining and user friendly. But that would involve real work, creativity and stuff like that. <Live Wrong and Prosper> LOL? This won't work, because most people WON'T be paying real money for their account. There are very very few guys who pay their main accounts with GTC, most of them are second, third even moe accounts. So what happens is they lose actual accounts playing the game. But as noted probably the increase in GTC is due to an increase in GTC demand and a drop in supply due to RL economic circunstances. The only thing CCP can do at this stage is launch offers like 'the power two', I think there are too much alts out there so it's a good thing for gameplay but bad for CCP pocket. Hopefully this will make them work harder and meet their schedulles and not launching half-assed features. Teh failure of a signature.
Grumman VanDeSaar Caldari	Posted - 2008.09.26 14:22:00 - [23] Generally speaking cheap accounts would prove fundamentally detrimental to eve as a whole, since the cheaper the RLM cost of account is the more profitable it is for isk farmers to farm massive numbers of accounts. I generally think if they cut the price of a subscription to say 5 dollars account to suit the whims of people wanting to run 4 accounts instead of 1, what would happen is isk farmers could run 20 accounts to every 1, the value of isk would basically collapse as hyperinflation took hold and everyone would need 4 accounts just to make enough isk to stand still.
Sheriff Jones Amarr Clinical Experiment	Posted - 2008.09.26 15:00:00 - [24] Originally by: Havohej Hi, 5pin. I'm not sure if you got what Roy there was trying to tell you, so I would like to elaborate for you and anyone else who didn't get it: It doesn't matter if you buy your GTC's with ISK - CCP still gets real money for it. You know why? Because the player you're buying the GTC from paid real money for it! So before you could ever give that GTC trader your half-a-billion ISK and 'beat the system' by not paying cash, CCP already got paid. I seriosuly wonder if i'm a ghost of the forums, seeing what i wrote before Roy... My opinions represent the opinions of my corporation completely. I'm the CEO damnit.
Octobers Opal	Posted - 2008.09.26 15:01:00 - [25] My alt account expires in 2 hours...another one bites the dust
Snarker Caldari Dragon's Rage Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2008.09.26 15:07:00 - [26] Judging from all the people I've talked to, I think the CCP is losing more accounts than the revenue they are generating from the price hike. ----------------------------------------
5pinDizzy Amarr Umpteenth Podding	Posted - 2008.09.26 15:16:00 - [27] Originally by: Havohej Originally by: Roy Batty68 Originally by: 5pinDizzy Edited by: 5pinDizzy on 26/09/2008 11:31:26 Let's go over this again. CCP won't care about lost "isk bought GTC accounts" because they never payed with real money and in most cases were never going to. Have another think. Hi, 5pin. I'm not sure if you got what Roy there was trying to tell you, so I would like to elaborate for you and anyone else who didn't get it: It doesn't matter if you buy your GTC's with ISK - CCP still gets real money for it. You know why? Because the player you're buying the GTC from paid real money for it! Havohej?) Did you either of you try to consider where I might be coming from or did you jump straight on your lntellectual high horses? Ok how to explain... Let's be hypothetical! Billy, who buys GTC's with ISK to pay his subscription for as long as he can remember notices GTC's are getting really expensive one day, and posts a complaint on the forum saying he may end up having to quit as he can't afford them any more. This first of all shows. - Billy does not have any desire at all to pay with real money to keep his character going. No Concern. CCP PROFIT - If Billy caves in to the pressure of losing his time invested and decides to pay real money to keep playing. Eve essentially gains a new customer. CCP PROFIT However let's say Billy and his friends who happen to be EVERY SINGLE PERSON ON THE SERVER WHO BUYS GTC's with ISK TO PLAY decide quit and never come back. The ever flowing traffic of beginners into Eve Online with cash in their pockets are ever present, they go to buy GTC's to simply sell for ISK for a quick step up in the game. Oh what's this? Hardly any demand? Price goes down.. price goes down... 200 million isk for 60 day GTC anyone? oh what's this? Suddenly there's about 5,000 people who've suddenly noticed buying a GTC with isk just became a lot more attractive and jump over to paying with ISK instead of their money. What difference does this have to CCP's profit? None. Like you said someone had to buy that GTC, THE BUYER, NOT THE PERSON WHO BOUGHT IT WITH ISK. What difference did billy and all his friends leaving have? NONE CCP PROFIT Which brings us back to the Point I stated in my original post. : It makes no difference whether people who pay to play with their ISK stay or go as the GTC economy will always reach a balance and they bring no new actual real money into CCP's pockets. If anything, due to the lower demand, the one who buys Game Time Cards to sell again for the isk may have to actually buy more to reach the same ISK target they were after. CCP PROFIT Quite a good business model don't you think?
Roy Batty68 Caldari Immortal Dead	Posted - 2008.09.26 15:17:00 - [28] Originally by: Sheriff Jones I seriosuly wonder if i'm a ghost of the forums, seeing what i wrote before Roy... Mine was cooler. Sig removed, inappropriate content. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Caius Sivaris Dark Nexxus	Posted - 2008.09.26 15:17:00 - [29] Originally by: Ballistic CEO Like many I used to have 3 accounts. I sold one as soon as news of the GTC changes came out and the 2nd of my 3 will expire today and is unlikely to be renewed under GTC current market conditions. Good. Less ISK farming accounts mean less lag (I mean for example all those people dual boxing missions with the second account paid in ISKs). I guess they'd rather lose someone third account than someone sole account (lag made people quit too). It's also likely it will make for a healthier economy too, things like salvaging are often the realm of alts less salvaging accounts will lead to higher salvage price for the single account owners...
Jethro Jechonias Ki Tech Industries	Posted - 2008.09.26 15:29:00 - [30] Quote: % raise in GTC price = % lost from dropped player accounts? That is one possiblity. It is also the one that I think is most likely, but not for the reasons that you are providing. This time last year we saw GTC price rise from 140mil for 30days, to 180mil, then on past 250mil in December, it then fell back down into 150mil range. This year we are seeing the same sort of pattern. We have hit 250mil for 30days a bit faster than last year, but the timing is about the same. I would speculate that it is a supply issue: people have back to school expenses to deal with, either for themselves or for their kids. This will then be followed by the usual holiday spending. More money and time spent on other things is likely to lead to less money and time spent on internet spaceships. Fewer people wanting to convert cash to ISK means a lower supply of GTC's. If CCP knows that this half of the year tends to have lower sales, it would be sensible for them to offer a promotion ( such as PowerOf2 ) during that time to boost revenues. The other possiblity is % raise in GTC price = % increased player accounts, because more people are buying up the available supply of ISK traded GTC's. However, I think that is unlikely as watching the volume of trade on the forums, it appears to be moving much slower than it has over the past few months: there seem to be fewer WTS offers, but what appears to be more WTB orders. I suspect that there are about the same or possibly fewer WTB, it is just the greater decrease in WTS posts that makes them seem all the more common. Ultimately, only CCP could tell us if the increase in the ISK to GTC ratio is because of increased demand or decreased supply. As for CCP including lost accounts into their price hike, of course they did. But ultimately, the price hike has little effect on the ISK-GTC ratio, as that is more directly controlled though how much demand there is for Cash-To-ISK trade, than by the price or size of the GTC's.

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