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Dr NAthan
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Posted - 2008.09.29 00:57:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Dr NAthan on 29/09/2008 00:57:54 Edited by: Dr NAthan on 29/09/2008 00:57:26 Is it me, or does it seem pointless having learning skills in the game that you have to... well learn....?
The whole process just seems self defeating. And the argument of "well you don't actually have to learn any of the learning skills, that's up to you" is just not valid, anyone who plays the game knows that these skills have to be learn no matter what. and eventually in almost all cases will be trained to lv4 minimum.
I love the game but this question has been eating away at my logic since I started playing EvE.
Why not just pick the type of character you want from the creation screen and get right into it? the same system would would be in place, I am sure.
Example, at the creation screen I pick a bloodline that has 4 Charisma and another person picks a bloodline with 7 Charisma. I now want more charisma so I do the standard process of of learning....learning skills to 4, resulting with me having 12 charisma but we all do this anyway, so the other player will now have 15 charisma leaving us in the exact same position as when we created the characters...
Am I missing something here? would it of not made more sense to simply have a more diverse creation screen and leave the learning....learning skills, process out?
I've been playing for around 7 weeks now and i have finally got all the learning skills to 4 which just seemed like a whole load of pointless time wasted on an invalid mechanic of the game.
The very fact that these learning skills are in the game with such an important role, pretty much forces most players to learn them which in my eyes defeats the point of them being an "option" if that even makes sense...
Please any thoughts on this would be great because again...I'm obviously missing something here....
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Aesynil
Caldari The Unit...
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Posted - 2008.09.29 01:33:00 -
[2]
I believe CCP devs have said learning skills were a mistake to implement, and something they regret, but they're stuck in the game now, as every character in existence knows them.
The Unit pursues invention, manufacturing, mining, and research. Evemail us if you need anything related to Science and Industry. |
Hardened Heart
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Posted - 2008.09.29 03:12:00 -
[3]
The only real positive I can see in them (and I know that I'm reaching with this) is that they are just one more mechanic purging the player base of immaturity and impatience.
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Veldya
Guristari Freedom Fighters
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Posted - 2008.09.29 06:16:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Aesynil I believe CCP devs have said learning skills were a mistake to implement, and something they regret, but they're stuck in the game now, as every character in existence knows them.
I don't think so.
They should have a buy back system that only works for Learning skills. You click on your Learning skills and have the option to remove the skill, you accept and the skill is removed, the SP in there goes towards what you are currently learning atm and your stat is adjusted permanently (if they wish to raise all the stats to maxed learning level).
Most people don't have all learning skills maxed out so by buying back all your learning skills you will probably see a rise in stats and put the SP into something more worthwhile.
Once the buy back system goes live, you would not be able to train learning skills any longer and all the skill books would be removed from the game.
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Malcanis
RuffRyders Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2008.09.29 07:31:00 -
[5]
There are about 50 threads on this topic already, some only a week or two old. Your objections have been answered mutliple times already. What it comes down to is that they're here and they're not going away, so get over it.
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Arkadrell
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Posted - 2008.09.29 08:46:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Arkadrell on 29/09/2008 08:50:32 learning skills help a ton heres why:
some dude that didnt know wtf he was doing makes a gallente intaki with 3 base perception, now this person decides he wants gunnery specialsations for BS classes hybrid turrets.
thats like 4.4mil SP with a 3 base attribute.
the +15 attributes you can add to any base you started with, helps those that didnt know what they where doing.
exsample:
14 base + 15 x 1.10 = 31.9 3 base + 15 x 1.10 = 19.8
differnce: 38% slower learning.
no learning skills in game:
14 base = 14 3 base = 3
differnce: 79% slower learning.
learning skills are a failsafe, a fallback for those that didnt know wtf they where doing at the start so they dont suffer endlessly.
PS. if they removed learning skills I hope to god they cut every skill SP needed to train in half! or more. Id probably quit if that didnt happend, also its kinda unfair that those who had unballanced attributed had the benefit of learning skills for so long, then their removed and new players will have to suffer compaired to that. (in short everyone would be ballanced attributies or be butt facked)
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steave435
Caldari Eve University Ivy League
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Posted - 2008.09.29 09:11:00 -
[7]
Quote: PS. if they removed learning skills I hope to god they cut every skill SP needed to train in half! or more. Id probably quit if that didnt happend, also its kinda unfair that those who had unballanced attributed had the benefit of learning skills for so long, then their removed and new players will have to suffer compaired to that. (in short everyone would be ballanced attributies or be butt facked)
If I read the suggestion right, it also included raising the basic stats for everyone to make up for not having learning skills.
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Arkadrell
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Posted - 2008.09.29 09:39:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Arkadrell on 29/09/2008 09:40:18 oh lol, in that case I support it, like a bonus to new players everyone just starts with +10 more attributies than normal :)
would save you a months time of learning skill training (which I basically just got done with >_<)
but yeah I see the point, ive wondered it myself many a time myself. whats the point of useing time learning something, that just helps learning, why couldnt learning times just be x amount shorter from the start and your useing your time learning something that does something for your character.
is how I feel about it, but because I know down the line, i ll save time by doing them is the only reason I can stand doing it and did it.
everyone needs learning skills, and everyone trainings them straight from the start.
"I've been playing for around 7 weeks now and i have finally got all the learning skills to 4 which just seemed like a whole load of pointless time wasted on an invalid mechanic of the game."
haha you and me both brother lmao. (didnt do chr one though)
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Nocturnal Avenger
Black Plague.
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Posted - 2008.09.29 10:28:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Arkadrellno learning skills in game:
14 base = 14 3 base = 3
differnce: 79% slower learning.[/quote
Seems you conveniently forgot about implants.
- Carebear Pirate - |
MMXMMX
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Posted - 2008.09.29 11:50:00 -
[10]
I think we need some new leurning books more leurning books = better .
The book :
Genius leurning Rank 15
Description :
A genius is a person of great intelligence or remarkable abilities in a specific subject, who shows an exceptional natural capacity of intellect This book ads 2 points per level to all leurning skils.
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Dock Martin
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Posted - 2008.09.29 11:50:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Arkadrell Edited by: Arkadrell on 29/09/2008 08:50:32 learning skills help a ton heres why:
some dude that didnt know wtf he was doing makes a gallente intaki with 3 base perception, now this person decides he wants gunnery specialsations for BS classes hybrid turrets.
thats like 4.4mil SP with a 3 base attribute.
the +15 attributes you can add to any base you started with, helps those that didnt know what they where doing.
exsample:
14 base + 15 x 1.10 = 31.9 3 base + 15 x 1.10 = 19.8
differnce: 38% slower learning.
no learning skills in game:
14 base = 14 3 base = 3
differnce: 79% slower learning.
learning skills are a failsafe, a fallback for those that didnt know wtf they where doing at the start so they dont suffer endlessly.
PS. if they removed learning skills I hope to god they cut every skill SP needed to train in half! or more. Id probably quit if that didnt happend, also its kinda unfair that those who had unballanced attributed had the benefit of learning skills for so long, then their removed and new players will have to suffer compaired to that. (in short everyone would be ballanced attributies or be butt facked)
I know what you are saying, but I'm sorry to say that you have completely missed the point.
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Dock Martin
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Posted - 2008.09.29 11:56:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Arkadrell Edited by: Arkadrell on 29/09/2008 09:40:18 oh lol, in that case I support it, like a bonus to new players everyone just starts with +10 more attributies than normal :)
would save you a months time of learning skill training (which I basically just got done with >_<)
but yeah I see the point, ive wondered it myself many a time myself. whats the point of useing time learning something, that just helps learning, why couldnt learning times just be x amount shorter from the start and your useing your time learning something that does something for your character.
is how I feel about it, but because I know down the line, i ll save time by doing them is the only reason I can stand doing it and did it.
everyone needs learning skills, and everyone trainings them straight from the start.
"I've been playing for around 7 weeks now and i have finally got all the learning skills to 4 which just seemed like a whole load of pointless time wasted on an invalid mechanic of the game."
haha you and me both brother lmao. (didnt do chr one though)
Sorry I should of read all the replies before posting Arkadrell
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Shan'Talasha Mea'Questa
The Perfect Harvesting Experience
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Posted - 2008.09.29 12:58:00 -
[13]
Originally by: MMXMMX I think we need some new leurning books more leurning books = better .
The book :
Genius leurning Rank 15
Description :
A genius is a person of great intelligence or remarkable abilities in a specific subject, who shows an exceptional natural capacity of intellect This book ads 2 points per level to all leurning skils.
I really hope you didn't use a spell-check on this one... otherwise I have been spelling learning wrong my entire life.
-----------------------------------------------
Originally by: Paper Rock's fine, nerf Scissors
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MMXMMX
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Posted - 2008.09.29 13:16:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Shan'Talasha Mea'Questa
Originally by: MMXMMX I think we need some new leurning books more leurning books = better .
The book :
Genius leurning Rank 15
Description :
A genius is a person of great intelligence or remarkable abilities in a specific subject, who shows an exceptional natural capacity of intellect This book ads 2 points per level to all leurning skils.
I really hope you didn't use a spell-check on this one... otherwise I have been spelling learning wrong my entire life.
Mwha this is realy off topic but if you want to know . I dident spell check and i am Dutch and i know my english is bad and my Dutch is better but talking Dutch inhere wont help .
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Lord Perdition
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Posted - 2008.09.30 17:21:00 -
[15]
If you dont like those skills just ignore em. You dont have to train em, you can train without em, like those players who started with 40k Skillpoints and without any learning skills. Without those skills it will take eons to catch old players in essential skills, without learning skills it would be pain in tha arseee!
Basic learning skills to lvl 4 and advanced to lvl 3 is a joke, and it gives everything you need (you will do way better than those chars who started out with 40k sp and without learning skills). If you are greedy and want even more SP per second, its up to you.
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The Vixen
Gallente DataPipe Industries
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Posted - 2008.09.30 17:56:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Hardened Heart The only real positive I can see in them (and I know that I'm reaching with this) is that they are just one more mechanic purging the player base of immaturity and impatience.
/two thumbs up
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Last Wolf
Umbra Wing
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Posted - 2008.10.01 01:39:00 -
[17]
The one and only reason I only have 1 account. I would love to dual box for missions, but I don't want to have that second char sitting in a station for 45 days doing nothing but training learning skills :/
It would be if Blizzard had put a "Smart" faction in the game. The higher your reputation with this faction, the more EXP you get from Mobs/Quests. In order to gain rep with this faction, you have to kill a couple thousand of the "Dumb" mobs. These "Dumb" mobs award no exp and no loot.
Lets say the average person with max reputation would reach level X in 60 days. While the average person without the rep would take 80 days to get to level X... but it takes 10 days for an average person to get to max rep, in a boring pointless task.
Ok my analogy sucks, but meh.
Remove Learning skills. Let us refund the SP from the learning skills, into skills with the exact same Primary/secondary attributes. Give everyone +10 to all attributes.
I honestly see no downside to this, everyone's net SP would still be the same, though in more useful skills. The only problem would be programming the mechanics into the game. __________________________________________________________
Originally by: Liang Nuren wrong forum isroy i am vjery drunm
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Arkeladin
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Posted - 2008.10.01 03:17:00 -
[18]
Sounds like the baisc point of this thread is:
"I want it NOW! WAAAAH!"
If nothing else, having to learn the skills to shorten your training time teaches a very important EvE Mechanic:
Patience.
The patience it takes to train the learning skills (and ANYONE who trains them all to IV as the first thing they do in EvE is a absolute fool) translates over very will intot he rest of the real-time-based training timesink. The reward is down the road, when skills that would take a month to train take less time - it's been said that you only fully realize the benefits of the learning skills a year and a half into EvE. Whether or not that's true I'm not gonna comment on :)
As it is, EvE is a game of long-term planning and training to fit thet plan - and the Learning skills work to foster that attitude. The basic point of ANY of the "Remove the learning skills NOW thread is simple - remove the skills, boost everyone 10 points.
Not everyone gets the skills to 5, sometimes only 4 or 3 - so you gove those people a free boost in the name of "equality". You want to apply the SP somewhere else - like to the skill currently training so that that received a ONE-TIME boost, maybe to completion. And if that skill completes and there are points left over, then what? You DON'T accumulate SP in this game unless you're actively training something - so those "extra" points get thrown away.
Once again, analyze the logic of it - it boils down to "I want it NOW! WAAAAH!"
Especially reprehensible in a game where long-term goals are rewarded - over time.
Enough - go back to Counterstrike.
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Last Wolf
Umbra Wing
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Posted - 2008.10.01 04:39:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Arkeladin Sounds like the baisc point of this thread is:
"I want it NOW! WAAAAH!"
If nothing else, having to learn the skills to shorten your training time teaches a very important EvE Mechanic:
Patience.
The patience it takes to train the learning skills (and ANYONE who trains them all to IV as the first thing they do in EvE is a absolute fool) translates over very will intot he rest of the real-time-based training timesink. The reward is down the road, when skills that would take a month to train take less time - it's been said that you only fully realize the benefits of the learning skills a year and a half into EvE. Whether or not that's true I'm not gonna comment on :)
As it is, EvE is a game of long-term planning and training to fit thet plan - and the Learning skills work to foster that attitude. The basic point of ANY of the "Remove the learning skills NOW thread is simple - remove the skills, boost everyone 10 points.
Not everyone gets the skills to 5, sometimes only 4 or 3 - so you gove those people a free boost in the name of "equality". You want to apply the SP somewhere else - like to the skill currently training so that that received a ONE-TIME boost, maybe to completion. And if that skill completes and there are points left over, then what? You DON'T accumulate SP in this game unless you're actively training something - so those "extra" points get thrown away.
Once again, analyze the logic of it - it boils down to "I want it NOW! WAAAAH!"
Especially reprehensible in a game where long-term goals are rewarded - over time.
Enough - go back to Counterstrike.
Never played Counterstrike. __________________________________________________________
Originally by: Liang Nuren wrong forum isroy i am vjery drunm
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Mr Friendly
That it Should Come to This
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Posted - 2008.10.01 08:26:00 -
[20]
Learning skills are an annoyance, though if CCP ever does away with them, I WILL demand an SP reassortment.
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Arkadrell
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Posted - 2008.10.01 08:44:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Mr Friendly Learning skills are an annoyance, though if CCP ever does away with them, I WILL demand an SP reassortment.
there here to stay hopefully (removeing them without cutting every skill training time in half would be a deal breaker)
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Arkeladin
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Posted - 2008.10.01 15:44:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Last Wolf
Originally by: Arkeladin Sounds like the baisc point of this thread is:
"I want it NOW! WAAAAH!"
If nothing else, having to learn the skills to shorten your training time teaches a very important EvE Mechanic:
Patience.
The patience it takes to train the learning skills (and ANYONE who trains them all to IV as the first thing they do in EvE is a absolute fool) translates over very will intot he rest of the real-time-based training timesink. The reward is down the road, when skills that would take a month to train take less time - it's been said that you only fully realize the benefits of the learning skills a year and a half into EvE. Whether or not that's true I'm not gonna comment on :)
As it is, EvE is a game of long-term planning and training to fit thet plan - and the Learning skills work to foster that attitude. The basic point of ANY of the "Remove the learning skills NOW thread is simple - remove the skills, boost everyone 10 points.
Not everyone gets the skills to 5, sometimes only 4 or 3 - so you gove those people a free boost in the name of "equality". You want to apply the SP somewhere else - like to the skill currently training so that that received a ONE-TIME boost, maybe to completion. And if that skill completes and there are points left over, then what? You DON'T accumulate SP in this game unless you're actively training something - so those "extra" points get thrown away.
Once again, analyze the logic of it - it boils down to "I want it NOW! WAAAAH!"
Especially reprehensible in a game where long-term goals are rewarded - over time.
Enough - go back to Counterstrike.
Never played Counterstrike.
Then go back to consoles - you get the point. EvE is NOT for the ADD crowd, and never will be. Patience grasshopper - patience :)
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Dark Soldat
Caldari Skyforger
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Posted - 2008.10.01 15:48:00 -
[23]
heh another one... well then CCP remove the Learnings give all existing chars +10 to their current atribute and give the youngsters +10 to their base attribute Everybodys Happy..
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Chris Liath
Gallente Red Dwarf Mining Corporation space weaponry and trade
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Posted - 2008.10.02 14:40:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Last Wolf The one and only reason I only have 1 account. I would love to dual box for missions, but I don't want to have that second char sitting in a station for 45 days doing nothing but training learning skills :/
It would be if Blizzard had put a "Smart" faction in the game. The higher your reputation with this faction, the more EXP you get from Mobs/Quests. In order to gain rep with this faction, you have to kill a couple thousand of the "Dumb" mobs. These "Dumb" mobs award no exp and no loot.
Lets say the average person with max reputation would reach level X in 60 days. While the average person without the rep would take 80 days to get to level X... but it takes 10 days for an average person to get to max rep, in a boring pointless task.
Ok my analogy sucks, but meh.
Remove Learning skills. Let us refund the SP from the learning skills, into skills with the exact same Primary/secondary attributes. Give everyone +10 to all attributes.
I honestly see no downside to this, everyone's net SP would still be the same, though in more useful skills. The only problem would be programming the mechanics into the game.
Never, ever use WoW as an analogy in EvE again or I'll have to track you down and beat you to death with a sloppy salmon.
"Oh dear," says God, "I hadn't thought of that," and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic. |
Warp Knight
The Serenity Society
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Posted - 2008.10.02 15:26:00 -
[25]
I think learning skills would be much better if they tied into other skills somehow.
They could be a tertiary pre-req for more advanced skills.
For example, someone who consciously chooses never to train Analytical Mind, not even to 1, should not have the ability to train a lot of Science skills.
It at least would make them more interesting. If you want to really **** people off, make it so that you have to train the Advanced Learning to 5 for all of the very very best skills.
==============================
Work is for people that don't know how to plunder. |
Freezehunter
Gallente O.W.N. Corp OWN Alliance
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Posted - 2008.10.04 11:46:00 -
[26]
i really like the genius skill idea...
however, it should be expensive and work like this :
Lvl 1 +1 all attributes Lvl 2 +2 all attributes Lvl 3 +3 all attributes Lvl 4 +4 all attributes Lvl 5 +5 all attributes
total of +15 at lvl 5 (should take ALOT to train for that...) |
ikoban
Amarr Scarlet Scourge Society
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Posted - 2008.10.05 02:23:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Last Wolf
Originally by: Arkeladin Sounds like the baisc point of this thread is:
"I want it NOW! WAAAAH!"
If nothing else, having to learn the skills to shorten your training time teaches a very important EvE Mechanic:
Patience.
The patience it takes to train the learning skills (and ANYONE who trains them all to IV as the first thing they do in EvE is a absolute fool) translates over very will intot he rest of the real-time-based training timesink. The reward is down the road, when skills that would take a month to train take less time - it's been said that you only fully realize the benefits of the learning skills a year and a half into EvE. Whether or not that's true I'm not gonna comment on :)
As it is, EvE is a game of long-term planning and training to fit thet plan - and the Learning skills work to foster that attitude. The basic point of ANY of the "Remove the learning skills NOW thread is simple - remove the skills, boost everyone 10 points.
Not everyone gets the skills to 5, sometimes only 4 or 3 - so you gove those people a free boost in the name of "equality". You want to apply the SP somewhere else - like to the skill currently training so that that received a ONE-TIME boost, maybe to completion. And if that skill completes and there are points left over, then what? You DON'T accumulate SP in this game unless you're actively training something - so those "extra" points get thrown away.
Once again, analyze the logic of it - it boils down to "I want it NOW! WAAAAH!"
Especially reprehensible in a game where long-term goals are rewarded - over time.
Enough - go back to Counterstrike.
Never played Counterstrike.
Can i have lvl 60 learning skills? lol
but seriously ... wow cannot be compared to eve when it comes to training/experience. one is grinding hard core the other is a wating game. the nearest eve has to experience is faction standings... do some missions gain standings... kill some npc rats and loose standings...
IF CCP does away with all the learning skills I hope they either remove all learnings and give most people sp to redistrubute who have done some learning skills already. no matter what ccp should leave in the learning skill and maybe add a tier 2 and tier 3 learning... Learning which adds 2% per lvl (rank 1 ), plus a tier 2 which adds 3% per lvl ( tank 3 ) and finally a tier 3 which adds 4% ( rank 8 ) that would be nice if ccp got rid of the main 10 attribute based learning skills. requirement for the tier 2 could be... lvl 4 in learning.. and the tier 3 could be lvl 5 in the two lower based learning skills.
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Arkadrell
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Posted - 2008.10.05 08:49:00 -
[28]
Originally by: ikoban
Originally by: Last Wolf
Originally by: Arkeladin Sounds like the baisc point of this thread is:
"I want it NOW! WAAAAH!"
If nothing else, having to learn the skills to shorten your training time teaches a very important EvE Mechanic:
Patience.
The patience it takes to train the learning skills (and ANYONE who trains them all to IV as the first thing they do in EvE is a absolute fool) translates over very will intot he rest of the real-time-based training timesink. The reward is down the road, when skills that would take a month to train take less time - it's been said that you only fully realize the benefits of the learning skills a year and a half into EvE. Whether or not that's true I'm not gonna comment on :)
As it is, EvE is a game of long-term planning and training to fit thet plan - and the Learning skills work to foster that attitude. The basic point of ANY of the "Remove the learning skills NOW thread is simple - remove the skills, boost everyone 10 points.
Not everyone gets the skills to 5, sometimes only 4 or 3 - so you gove those people a free boost in the name of "equality". You want to apply the SP somewhere else - like to the skill currently training so that that received a ONE-TIME boost, maybe to completion. And if that skill completes and there are points left over, then what? You DON'T accumulate SP in this game unless you're actively training something - so those "extra" points get thrown away.
Once again, analyze the logic of it - it boils down to "I want it NOW! WAAAAH!"
Especially reprehensible in a game where long-term goals are rewarded - over time.
Enough - go back to Counterstrike.
Never played Counterstrike.
Can i have lvl 60 learning skills? lol
but seriously ... wow cannot be compared to eve when it comes to training/experience. one is grinding hard core the other is a wating game. the nearest eve has to experience is faction standings... do some missions gain standings... kill some npc rats and loose standings...
IF CCP does away with all the learning skills I hope they either remove all learnings and give most people sp to redistrubute who have done some learning skills already. no matter what ccp should leave in the learning skill and maybe add a tier 2 and tier 3 learning... Learning which adds 2% per lvl (rank 1 ), plus a tier 2 which adds 3% per lvl ( tank 3 ) and finally a tier 3 which adds 4% ( rank 8 ) that would be nice if ccp got rid of the main 10 attribute based learning skills. requirement for the tier 2 could be... lvl 4 in learning.. and the tier 3 could be lvl 5 in the two lower based learning skills.
ikoban, you think that the current basic+adv learnings giveing +10 attributies to each attribute are a waste and support to have them removed? only to add more learning skills? that doesnt make any sense >_>
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ikoban
Amarr Scarlet Scourge Society
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Posted - 2008.10.05 21:38:00 -
[29]
it is part of the game always has been to a point..
i have done all my learnign skills so i can care less personally.
if idiots do not want to train past 4/4 or what ever they deem enough thats their problems not mine.
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Quardol
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Posted - 2008.10.06 12:22:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Kethot Edited by: Kethot on 06/10/2008 12:17:56 It's probably a time sink method, since learning skills are mandatory for every character.
...
In other words, without those skills, people would train faster, earn ISK faster and pay less for the game.
This is exactly why learning skills will never go away. CCP is a business - the longer you pay, the more money they make.
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