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Learning, learning skills a pointless mechanic?

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Dr NAthan	Posted - 2008.09.29 00:57:00 - [1] Edited by: Dr NAthan on 29/09/2008 00:57:54 Edited by: Dr NAthan on 29/09/2008 00:57:26 Is it me, or does it seem pointless having learning skills in the game that you have to... well learn....? The whole process just seems self defeating. And the argument of "well you don't actually have to learn any of the learning skills, that's up to you" is just not valid, anyone who plays the game knows that these skills have to be learn no matter what. and eventually in almost all cases will be trained to lv4 minimum. I love the game but this question has been eating away at my logic since I started playing EvE. Why not just pick the type of character you want from the creation screen and get right into it? the same system would would be in place, I am sure. Example, at the creation screen I pick a bloodline that has 4 Charisma and another person picks a bloodline with 7 Charisma. I now want more charisma so I do the standard process of of learning....learning skills to 4, resulting with me having 12 charisma but we all do this anyway, so the other player will now have 15 charisma leaving us in the exact same position as when we created the characters... Am I missing something here? would it of not made more sense to simply have a more diverse creation screen and leave the learning....learning skills, process out? I've been playing for around 7 weeks now and i have finally got all the learning skills to 4 which just seemed like a whole load of pointless time wasted on an invalid mechanic of the game. The very fact that these learning skills are in the game with such an important role, pretty much forces most players to learn them which in my eyes defeats the point of them being an "option" if that even makes sense... Please any thoughts on this would be great because again...I'm obviously missing something here....
Aesynil Caldari The Unit...	Posted - 2008.09.29 01:33:00 - [2] I believe CCP devs have said learning skills were a mistake to implement, and something they regret, but they're stuck in the game now, as every character in existence knows them. The Unit pursues invention, manufacturing, mining, and research. Evemail us if you need anything related to Science and Industry.
Hardened Heart	Posted - 2008.09.29 03:12:00 - [3] The only real positive I can see in them (and I know that I'm reaching with this) is that they are just one more mechanic purging the player base of immaturity and impatience.
Veldya Guristari Freedom Fighters	Posted - 2008.09.29 06:16:00 - [4] Originally by: Aesynil I believe CCP devs have said learning skills were a mistake to implement, and something they regret, but they're stuck in the game now, as every character in existence knows them. I don't think so. They should have a buy back system that only works for Learning skills. You click on your Learning skills and have the option to remove the skill, you accept and the skill is removed, the SP in there goes towards what you are currently learning atm and your stat is adjusted permanently (if they wish to raise all the stats to maxed learning level). Most people don't have all learning skills maxed out so by buying back all your learning skills you will probably see a rise in stats and put the SP into something more worthwhile. Once the buy back system goes live, you would not be able to train learning skills any longer and all the skill books would be removed from the game.
Malcanis RuffRyders Axiom Empire	Posted - 2008.09.29 07:31:00 - [5] There are about 50 threads on this topic already, some only a week or two old. Your objections have been answered mutliple times already. What it comes down to is that they're here and they're not going away, so get over it.
Arkadrell	Posted - 2008.09.29 08:46:00 - [6] Edited by: Arkadrell on 29/09/2008 08:50:32 learning skills help a ton heres why: some dude that didnt know wtf he was doing makes a gallente intaki with 3 base perception, now this person decides he wants gunnery specialsations for BS classes hybrid turrets. thats like 4.4mil SP with a 3 base attribute. the +15 attributes you can add to any base you started with, helps those that didnt know what they where doing. exsample: 14 base + 15 x 1.10 = 31.9 3 base + 15 x 1.10 = 19.8 differnce: 38% slower learning. no learning skills in game: 14 base = 14 3 base = 3 differnce: 79% slower learning. learning skills are a failsafe, a fallback for those that didnt know wtf they where doing at the start so they dont suffer endlessly. PS. if they removed learning skills I hope to god they cut every skill SP needed to train in half! or more. Id probably quit if that didnt happend, also its kinda unfair that those who had unballanced attributed had the benefit of learning skills for so long, then their removed and new players will have to suffer compaired to that. (in short everyone would be ballanced attributies or be butt facked)
steave435 Caldari Eve University Ivy League	Posted - 2008.09.29 09:11:00 - [7] Quote: PS. if they removed learning skills I hope to god they cut every skill SP needed to train in half! or more. Id probably quit if that didnt happend, also its kinda unfair that those who had unballanced attributed had the benefit of learning skills for so long, then their removed and new players will have to suffer compaired to that. (in short everyone would be ballanced attributies or be butt facked) If I read the suggestion right, it also included raising the basic stats for everyone to make up for not having learning skills.
Arkadrell	Posted - 2008.09.29 09:39:00 - [8] Edited by: Arkadrell on 29/09/2008 09:40:18 oh lol, in that case I support it, like a bonus to new players everyone just starts with +10 more attributies than normal :) would save you a months time of learning skill training (which I basically just got done with >_<) but yeah I see the point, ive wondered it myself many a time myself. whats the point of useing time learning something, that just helps learning, why couldnt learning times just be x amount shorter from the start and your useing your time learning something that does something for your character. is how I feel about it, but because I know down the line, i ll save time by doing them is the only reason I can stand doing it and did it. everyone needs learning skills, and everyone trainings them straight from the start. "I've been playing for around 7 weeks now and i have finally got all the learning skills to 4 which just seemed like a whole load of pointless time wasted on an invalid mechanic of the game." haha you and me both brother lmao. (didnt do chr one though)
Nocturnal Avenger Black Plague.	Posted - 2008.09.29 10:28:00 - [9] Originally by: Arkadrellno learning skills in game: 14 base = 14 3 base = 3 differnce: 79% slower learning.[/quote Seems you conveniently forgot about implants. - Carebear Pirate -
MMXMMX	Posted - 2008.09.29 11:50:00 - [10] I think we need some new leurning books more leurning books = better . The book : Genius leurning Rank 15 Description : A genius is a person of great intelligence or remarkable abilities in a specific subject, who shows an exceptional natural capacity of intellect This book ads 2 points per level to all leurning skils.

Dock Martin	Posted - 2008.09.29 11:50:00 - [11] Originally by: Arkadrell Edited by: Arkadrell on 29/09/2008 08:50:32 learning skills help a ton heres why: some dude that didnt know wtf he was doing makes a gallente intaki with 3 base perception, now this person decides he wants gunnery specialsations for BS classes hybrid turrets. thats like 4.4mil SP with a 3 base attribute. the +15 attributes you can add to any base you started with, helps those that didnt know what they where doing. exsample: 14 base + 15 x 1.10 = 31.9 3 base + 15 x 1.10 = 19.8 differnce: 38% slower learning. no learning skills in game: 14 base = 14 3 base = 3 differnce: 79% slower learning. learning skills are a failsafe, a fallback for those that didnt know wtf they where doing at the start so they dont suffer endlessly. PS. if they removed learning skills I hope to god they cut every skill SP needed to train in half! or more. Id probably quit if that didnt happend, also its kinda unfair that those who had unballanced attributed had the benefit of learning skills for so long, then their removed and new players will have to suffer compaired to that. (in short everyone would be ballanced attributies or be butt facked) I know what you are saying, but I'm sorry to say that you have completely missed the point.
Dock Martin	Posted - 2008.09.29 11:56:00 - [12] Originally by: Arkadrell Edited by: Arkadrell on 29/09/2008 09:40:18 oh lol, in that case I support it, like a bonus to new players everyone just starts with +10 more attributies than normal :) would save you a months time of learning skill training (which I basically just got done with >_<) but yeah I see the point, ive wondered it myself many a time myself. whats the point of useing time learning something, that just helps learning, why couldnt learning times just be x amount shorter from the start and your useing your time learning something that does something for your character. is how I feel about it, but because I know down the line, i ll save time by doing them is the only reason I can stand doing it and did it. everyone needs learning skills, and everyone trainings them straight from the start. "I've been playing for around 7 weeks now and i have finally got all the learning skills to 4 which just seemed like a whole load of pointless time wasted on an invalid mechanic of the game." haha you and me both brother lmao. (didnt do chr one though) Sorry I should of read all the replies before posting Arkadrell
Shan'Talasha Mea'Questa The Perfect Harvesting Experience	Posted - 2008.09.29 12:58:00 - [13] Originally by: MMXMMX I think we need some new leurning books more leurning books = better . The book : Genius leurning Rank 15 Description : A genius is a person of great intelligence or remarkable abilities in a specific subject, who shows an exceptional natural capacity of intellect This book ads 2 points per level to all leurning skils. I really hope you didn't use a spell-check on this one... otherwise I have been spelling learning wrong my entire life. ----------------------------------------------- Originally by: Paper Rock's fine, nerf Scissors
MMXMMX	Posted - 2008.09.29 13:16:00 - [14] Originally by: Shan'Talasha Mea'Questa Originally by: MMXMMX I think we need some new leurning books more leurning books = better . The book : Genius leurning Rank 15 Description : A genius is a person of great intelligence or remarkable abilities in a specific subject, who shows an exceptional natural capacity of intellect This book ads 2 points per level to all leurning skils. I really hope you didn't use a spell-check on this one... otherwise I have been spelling learning wrong my entire life. Mwha this is realy off topic but if you want to know . I dident spell check and i am Dutch and i know my english is bad and my Dutch is better but talking Dutch inhere wont help .
Lord Perdition	Posted - 2008.09.30 17:21:00 - [15] If you dont like those skills just ignore em. You dont have to train em, you can train without em, like those players who started with 40k Skillpoints and without any learning skills. Without those skills it will take eons to catch old players in essential skills, without learning skills it would be pain in tha arseee! Basic learning skills to lvl 4 and advanced to lvl 3 is a joke, and it gives everything you need (you will do way better than those chars who started out with 40k sp and without learning skills). If you are greedy and want even more SP per second, its up to you.
The Vixen Gallente DataPipe Industries	Posted - 2008.09.30 17:56:00 - [16] Originally by: Hardened Heart The only real positive I can see in them (and I know that I'm reaching with this) is that they are just one more mechanic purging the player base of immaturity and impatience. /two thumbs up
Last Wolf Umbra Wing	Posted - 2008.10.01 01:39:00 - [17] The one and only reason I only have 1 account. I would love to dual box for missions, but I don't want to have that second char sitting in a station for 45 days doing nothing but training learning skills :/ It would be if Blizzard had put a "Smart" faction in the game. The higher your reputation with this faction, the more EXP you get from Mobs/Quests. In order to gain rep with this faction, you have to kill a couple thousand of the "Dumb" mobs. These "Dumb" mobs award no exp and no loot. Lets say the average person with max reputation would reach level X in 60 days. While the average person without the rep would take 80 days to get to level X... but it takes 10 days for an average person to get to max rep, in a boring pointless task. Ok my analogy sucks, but meh. Remove Learning skills. Let us refund the SP from the learning skills, into skills with the exact same Primary/secondary attributes. Give everyone +10 to all attributes. I honestly see no downside to this, everyone's net SP would still be the same, though in more useful skills. The only problem would be programming the mechanics into the game. __________________________________________________________ Originally by: Liang Nuren wrong forum isroy i am vjery drunm
Arkeladin	Posted - 2008.10.01 03:17:00 - [18] Sounds like the baisc point of this thread is: "I want it NOW! WAAAAH!" If nothing else, having to learn the skills to shorten your training time teaches a very important EvE Mechanic: Patience. The patience it takes to train the learning skills (and ANYONE who trains them all to IV as the first thing they do in EvE is a absolute fool) translates over very will intot he rest of the real-time-based training timesink. The reward is down the road, when skills that would take a month to train take less time - it's been said that you only fully realize the benefits of the learning skills a year and a half into EvE. Whether or not that's true I'm not gonna comment on :) As it is, EvE is a game of long-term planning and training to fit thet plan - and the Learning skills work to foster that attitude. The basic point of ANY of the "Remove the learning skills NOW thread is simple - remove the skills, boost everyone 10 points. Not everyone gets the skills to 5, sometimes only 4 or 3 - so you gove those people a free boost in the name of "equality". You want to apply the SP somewhere else - like to the skill currently training so that that received a ONE-TIME boost, maybe to completion. And if that skill completes and there are points left over, then what? You DON'T accumulate SP in this game unless you're actively training something - so those "extra" points get thrown away. Once again, analyze the logic of it - it boils down to "I want it NOW! WAAAAH!" Especially reprehensible in a game where long-term goals are rewarded - over time. Enough - go back to Counterstrike.
Last Wolf Umbra Wing	Posted - 2008.10.01 04:39:00 - [19] Originally by: Arkeladin Sounds like the baisc point of this thread is: "I want it NOW! WAAAAH!" If nothing else, having to learn the skills to shorten your training time teaches a very important EvE Mechanic: Patience. The patience it takes to train the learning skills (and ANYONE who trains them all to IV as the first thing they do in EvE is a absolute fool) translates over very will intot he rest of the real-time-based training timesink. The reward is down the road, when skills that would take a month to train take less time - it's been said that you only fully realize the benefits of the learning skills a year and a half into EvE. Whether or not that's true I'm not gonna comment on :) As it is, EvE is a game of long-term planning and training to fit thet plan - and the Learning skills work to foster that attitude. The basic point of ANY of the "Remove the learning skills NOW thread is simple - remove the skills, boost everyone 10 points. Not everyone gets the skills to 5, sometimes only 4 or 3 - so you gove those people a free boost in the name of "equality". You want to apply the SP somewhere else - like to the skill currently training so that that received a ONE-TIME boost, maybe to completion. And if that skill completes and there are points left over, then what? You DON'T accumulate SP in this game unless you're actively training something - so those "extra" points get thrown away. Once again, analyze the logic of it - it boils down to "I want it NOW! WAAAAH!" Especially reprehensible in a game where long-term goals are rewarded - over time. Enough - go back to Counterstrike. Never played Counterstrike. __________________________________________________________ Originally by: Liang Nuren wrong forum isroy i am vjery drunm
Mr Friendly That it Should Come to This	Posted - 2008.10.01 08:26:00 - [20] Learning skills are an annoyance, though if CCP ever does away with them, I WILL demand an SP reassortment.

Arkadrell	Posted - 2008.10.01 08:44:00 - [21] Originally by: Mr Friendly Learning skills are an annoyance, though if CCP ever does away with them, I WILL demand an SP reassortment. there here to stay hopefully (removeing them without cutting every skill training time in half would be a deal breaker)
Arkeladin	Posted - 2008.10.01 15:44:00 - [22] Originally by: Last Wolf Originally by: Arkeladin Sounds like the baisc point of this thread is: "I want it NOW! WAAAAH!" If nothing else, having to learn the skills to shorten your training time teaches a very important EvE Mechanic: Patience. The patience it takes to train the learning skills (and ANYONE who trains them all to IV as the first thing they do in EvE is a absolute fool) translates over very will intot he rest of the real-time-based training timesink. The reward is down the road, when skills that would take a month to train take less time - it's been said that you only fully realize the benefits of the learning skills a year and a half into EvE. Whether or not that's true I'm not gonna comment on :) As it is, EvE is a game of long-term planning and training to fit thet plan - and the Learning skills work to foster that attitude. The basic point of ANY of the "Remove the learning skills NOW thread is simple - remove the skills, boost everyone 10 points. Not everyone gets the skills to 5, sometimes only 4 or 3 - so you gove those people a free boost in the name of "equality". You want to apply the SP somewhere else - like to the skill currently training so that that received a ONE-TIME boost, maybe to completion. And if that skill completes and there are points left over, then what? You DON'T accumulate SP in this game unless you're actively training something - so those "extra" points get thrown away. Once again, analyze the logic of it - it boils down to "I want it NOW! WAAAAH!" Especially reprehensible in a game where long-term goals are rewarded - over time. Enough - go back to Counterstrike. Never played Counterstrike. Then go back to consoles - you get the point. EvE is NOT for the ADD crowd, and never will be. Patience grasshopper - patience :)
Dark Soldat Caldari Skyforger	Posted - 2008.10.01 15:48:00 - [23] heh another one... well then CCP remove the Learnings give all existing chars +10 to their current atribute and give the youngsters +10 to their base attribute Everybodys Happy..
Chris Liath Gallente Red Dwarf Mining Corporation space weaponry and trade	Posted - 2008.10.02 14:40:00 - [24] Originally by: Last Wolf The one and only reason I only have 1 account. I would love to dual box for missions, but I don't want to have that second char sitting in a station for 45 days doing nothing but training learning skills :/ It would be if Blizzard had put a "Smart" faction in the game. The higher your reputation with this faction, the more EXP you get from Mobs/Quests. In order to gain rep with this faction, you have to kill a couple thousand of the "Dumb" mobs. These "Dumb" mobs award no exp and no loot. Lets say the average person with max reputation would reach level X in 60 days. While the average person without the rep would take 80 days to get to level X... but it takes 10 days for an average person to get to max rep, in a boring pointless task. Ok my analogy sucks, but meh. Remove Learning skills. Let us refund the SP from the learning skills, into skills with the exact same Primary/secondary attributes. Give everyone +10 to all attributes. I honestly see no downside to this, everyone's net SP would still be the same, though in more useful skills. The only problem would be programming the mechanics into the game. Never, ever use WoW as an analogy in EvE again or I'll have to track you down and beat you to death with a sloppy salmon. "Oh dear," says God, "I hadn't thought of that," and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic.
Warp Knight The Serenity Society	Posted - 2008.10.02 15:26:00 - [25] I think learning skills would be much better if they tied into other skills somehow. They could be a tertiary pre-req for more advanced skills. For example, someone who consciously chooses never to train Analytical Mind, not even to 1, should not have the ability to train a lot of Science skills. It at least would make them more interesting. If you want to really **** people off, make it so that you have to train the Advanced Learning to 5 for all of the very very best skills. ============================== Work is for people that don't know how to plunder.
Freezehunter Gallente O.W.N. Corp OWN Alliance	Posted - 2008.10.04 11:46:00 - [26] i really like the genius skill idea... however, it should be expensive and work like this : Lvl 1 +1 all attributes Lvl 2 +2 all attributes Lvl 3 +3 all attributes Lvl 4 +4 all attributes Lvl 5 +5 all attributes total of +15 at lvl 5 (should take ALOT to train for that...)
ikoban Amarr Scarlet Scourge Society	Posted - 2008.10.05 02:23:00 - [27] Originally by: Last Wolf Originally by: Arkeladin Sounds like the baisc point of this thread is: "I want it NOW! WAAAAH!" If nothing else, having to learn the skills to shorten your training time teaches a very important EvE Mechanic: Patience. The patience it takes to train the learning skills (and ANYONE who trains them all to IV as the first thing they do in EvE is a absolute fool) translates over very will intot he rest of the real-time-based training timesink. The reward is down the road, when skills that would take a month to train take less time - it's been said that you only fully realize the benefits of the learning skills a year and a half into EvE. Whether or not that's true I'm not gonna comment on :) As it is, EvE is a game of long-term planning and training to fit thet plan - and the Learning skills work to foster that attitude. The basic point of ANY of the "Remove the learning skills NOW thread is simple - remove the skills, boost everyone 10 points. Not everyone gets the skills to 5, sometimes only 4 or 3 - so you gove those people a free boost in the name of "equality". You want to apply the SP somewhere else - like to the skill currently training so that that received a ONE-TIME boost, maybe to completion. And if that skill completes and there are points left over, then what? You DON'T accumulate SP in this game unless you're actively training something - so those "extra" points get thrown away. Once again, analyze the logic of it - it boils down to "I want it NOW! WAAAAH!" Especially reprehensible in a game where long-term goals are rewarded - over time. Enough - go back to Counterstrike. Never played Counterstrike. Can i have lvl 60 learning skills? lol but seriously ... wow cannot be compared to eve when it comes to training/experience. one is grinding hard core the other is a wating game. the nearest eve has to experience is faction standings... do some missions gain standings... kill some npc rats and loose standings... IF CCP does away with all the learning skills I hope they either remove all learnings and give most people sp to redistrubute who have done some learning skills already. no matter what ccp should leave in the learning skill and maybe add a tier 2 and tier 3 learning... Learning which adds 2% per lvl (rank 1 ), plus a tier 2 which adds 3% per lvl ( tank 3 ) and finally a tier 3 which adds 4% ( rank 8 ) that would be nice if ccp got rid of the main 10 attribute based learning skills. requirement for the tier 2 could be... lvl 4 in learning.. and the tier 3 could be lvl 5 in the two lower based learning skills.
Arkadrell	Posted - 2008.10.05 08:49:00 - [28] Originally by: ikoban Originally by: Last Wolf Originally by: Arkeladin Sounds like the baisc point of this thread is: "I want it NOW! WAAAAH!" If nothing else, having to learn the skills to shorten your training time teaches a very important EvE Mechanic: Patience. The patience it takes to train the learning skills (and ANYONE who trains them all to IV as the first thing they do in EvE is a absolute fool) translates over very will intot he rest of the real-time-based training timesink. The reward is down the road, when skills that would take a month to train take less time - it's been said that you only fully realize the benefits of the learning skills a year and a half into EvE. Whether or not that's true I'm not gonna comment on :) As it is, EvE is a game of long-term planning and training to fit thet plan - and the Learning skills work to foster that attitude. The basic point of ANY of the "Remove the learning skills NOW thread is simple - remove the skills, boost everyone 10 points. Not everyone gets the skills to 5, sometimes only 4 or 3 - so you gove those people a free boost in the name of "equality". You want to apply the SP somewhere else - like to the skill currently training so that that received a ONE-TIME boost, maybe to completion. And if that skill completes and there are points left over, then what? You DON'T accumulate SP in this game unless you're actively training something - so those "extra" points get thrown away. Once again, analyze the logic of it - it boils down to "I want it NOW! WAAAAH!" Especially reprehensible in a game where long-term goals are rewarded - over time. Enough - go back to Counterstrike. Never played Counterstrike. Can i have lvl 60 learning skills? lol but seriously ... wow cannot be compared to eve when it comes to training/experience. one is grinding hard core the other is a wating game. the nearest eve has to experience is faction standings... do some missions gain standings... kill some npc rats and loose standings... IF CCP does away with all the learning skills I hope they either remove all learnings and give most people sp to redistrubute who have done some learning skills already. no matter what ccp should leave in the learning skill and maybe add a tier 2 and tier 3 learning... Learning which adds 2% per lvl (rank 1 ), plus a tier 2 which adds 3% per lvl ( tank 3 ) and finally a tier 3 which adds 4% ( rank 8 ) that would be nice if ccp got rid of the main 10 attribute based learning skills. requirement for the tier 2 could be... lvl 4 in learning.. and the tier 3 could be lvl 5 in the two lower based learning skills. ikoban, you think that the current basic+adv learnings giveing +10 attributies to each attribute are a waste and support to have them removed? only to add more learning skills? that doesnt make any sense >_>
ikoban Amarr Scarlet Scourge Society	Posted - 2008.10.05 21:38:00 - [29] it is part of the game always has been to a point.. i have done all my learnign skills so i can care less personally. if idiots do not want to train past 4/4 or what ever they deem enough thats their problems not mine.
Quardol	Posted - 2008.10.06 12:22:00 - [30] Originally by: Kethot Edited by: Kethot on 06/10/2008 12:17:56 It's probably a time sink method, since learning skills are mandatory for every character. ... In other words, without those skills, people would train faster, earn ISK faster and pay less for the game. This is exactly why learning skills will never go away. CCP is a business - the longer you pay, the more money they make.

UnzipRAR	Posted - 2008.10.07 01:14:00 - [31] Originally by: Arkeladin Sounds like the baisc point of this thread is: "I want it NOW! WAAAAH!" If nothing else, having to learn the skills to shorten your training time teaches a very important EvE Mechanic: Patience. The patience it takes to train the learning skills (and ANYONE who trains them all to IV as the first thing they do in EvE is a absolute fool) translates over very will intot he rest of the real-time-based training timesink. The reward is down the road, when skills that would take a month to train take less time - it's been said that you only fully realize the benefits of the learning skills a year and a half into EvE. Whether or not that's true I'm not gonna comment on :) As it is, EvE is a game of long-term planning and training to fit thet plan - and the Learning skills work to foster that attitude. The basic point of ANY of the "Remove the learning skills NOW thread is simple - remove the skills, boost everyone 10 points. Not everyone gets the skills to 5, sometimes only 4 or 3 - so you gove those people a free boost in the name of "equality". You want to apply the SP somewhere else - like to the skill currently training so that that received a ONE-TIME boost, maybe to completion. And if that skill completes and there are points left over, then what? You DON'T accumulate SP in this game unless you're actively training something - so those "extra" points get thrown away. Once again, analyze the logic of it - it boils down to "I want it NOW! WAAAAH!" Especially reprehensible in a game where long-term goals are rewarded - over time. Enough - go back to Counterstrike. You are wrong, I am patient and so are people who have actually trained these skill, after all I did train them, but there is a difference between patience and taking the cake, these skills are just completely flawed, no point to them what so ever and frankly it gets to me a little because this is a month of game time and frankly they must be trained so frankly it's not an option so frankly whats the point? these points should integrated in to the character creation process or completely removed and lower skill training time, this would result in the same amount of training time overall minus a month or so for all for LV4. and I don't even want to get started on training learning to LV5. If thats being inpatient then I am Father Christmas I am willing to play this game and put the time in to it, I have planned over a year ahead and I'm all for it, I just don't see the point on the learning skills, it's a complete drain on the game, from what I have seen so far this game is great, has some stuff I don't like but I'm not going to get in to that here, overall the game is great, I just do not understand why things like learning skills exist. And why the hell do ships stop so far away from gates in auto pilot, there I said it lol, another whine, it's just pointless shit like this I seriously do...not...get...
Kethot Ordo Drakonis Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2008.10.07 05:08:00 - [32] Originally by: UnzipRAR And why the hell do ships stop so far away from gates in auto pilot, there I said it lol, another whine, it's just pointless shit like this I seriously do...not...get... Hauling is a big part of the game. Esentially, you are not allowed to earn money or be effective by doing nothing in EVE, that's why they stop so far. That's actually a good mechanic. EVE is a game after all, some things don't make sense for the sake of practicality.
General Urlana	Posted - 2008.10.07 15:18:00 - [33] Learning skills are a pain to train because you get no pew pew bonus or anything else right away. They may be a mistake but i think they add further depth to the game. You can no longer look at a player and have an idea of what they might have trained. Some people don't train them very much, others max them out. A wise player will spend that month training them all but not everyone does it. Now the player that did has an advantage over the other player by skills learned. So maybe they are both 6 months but player a trained learning and player b didn't do much with them. Player A now has a higher skill and deals more damage for example. Just things like this i like with them. I'm not a fan of learning them because it is boring but i do like that element of rift between players in regards to them.
IsThereAnybodyOutThere	Posted - 2008.10.07 15:28:00 - [34] /me wonders how many people "just got learning skills to IV, and think they are bad and want them removed" that really "just downloaded evemon and saw they could save 100 days by training 20 days worth of learning skills, which they dont want to do"
General Urlana	Posted - 2008.10.07 15:37:00 - [35] Originally by: IsThereAnybodyOutThere /me wonders how many people "just got learning skills to IV, and think they are bad and want them removed" that really "just downloaded evemon and saw they could save 100 days by training 20 days worth of learning skills, which they dont want to do" This as well as people who want to just jump into the fray. coughWOWcough People have to remember this is a very indepth game. Nothing is handed to you on a plater
Caiman Graystock Comrades in Construction Anarchy.	Posted - 2008.10.07 16:38:00 - [36] Learning skills are the most useful skills in the game, they work 24/7 no matter what ship you are flying, what clone you are in or whether or not you are even logged into the game! I'm sure many, myself included, would kick up a stink if they were removed. They are a time sink of course, but no more than many other skills, the majority of which are limited to when you are flying a specific ship or using a specific weapon.
TraderJoe's	Posted - 2008.10.09 14:46:00 - [37] The point of learning skills is to make it easier for experienced players to create alts. They are the ones who can realistically take the ænormalÆ path of creating a trial account, then training all the shorter learning skills during the two week period, then dark training one of the longer learning skills. Learning skills probably hurt real newbies - or at least diminishes their initial experience. Spending 30-days in a tier 1 frig while pushing learning skills will drive many to quit. Skipping it will gimp them over the long term.
Aticus Decorva	Posted - 2008.10.09 18:59:00 - [38] Edited by: Aticus Decorva on 09/10/2008 18:59:55 I have just started playing Eve and I have read about the learning skills and boosting them quickly to help you later on, which is as far as I see a good idea. The issue of wether they should be in the game or not is academic. The time required to learn a skill is based off of that skills primary & secondary attribute. So a mechanism for increasing said attributes is required and the learning skills and implants are your mechanism. I find it funny that the proposed solutions for removing the learning skills is to boost everyones attributes. This follows the average desire for bigger better faster that all gamers have :) An easier solution and one that still would allow for some modifications by implants would be to simply increase the time reduction % per attribute point and give people a little more flexiblity in distributing attributes in the creation process. This would over all have a lesser impact on the current game mechanics than simply boosting everyones stats. Anyways thats my 3 cents
Lady Aja Caldari Creative Destruction Pupule 'Ohana	Posted - 2008.10.09 23:24:00 - [39] Originally by: UnzipRAR Edited by: UnzipRAR on 07/10/2008 01:22:04 Originally by: Arkeladin Sounds like the baisc point of this thread is: "I want it NOW! WAAAAH!" If nothing else, having to learn the skills to shorten your training time teaches a very important EvE Mechanic: Patience. The patience it takes to train the learning skills (and ANYONE who trains them all to IV as the first thing they do in EvE is a absolute fool) translates over very will intot he rest of the real-time-based training timesink. The reward is down the road, when skills that would take a month to train take less time - it's been said that you only fully realize the benefits of the learning skills a year and a half into EvE. Whether or not that's true I'm not gonna comment on :) As it is, EvE is a game of long-term planning and training to fit thet plan - and the Learning skills work to foster that attitude. The basic point of ANY of the "Remove the learning skills NOW thread is simple - remove the skills, boost everyone 10 points. Not everyone gets the skills to 5, sometimes only 4 or 3 - so you gove those people a free boost in the name of "equality". You want to apply the SP somewhere else - like to the skill currently training so that that received a ONE-TIME boost, maybe to completion. And if that skill completes and there are points left over, then what? You DON'T accumulate SP in this game unless you're actively training something - so those "extra" points get thrown away. Once again, analyze the logic of it - it boils down to "I want it NOW! WAAAAH!" Especially reprehensible in a game where long-term goals are rewarded - over time. Enough - go back to Counterstrike. You are wrong, I am patient and so are people who have actually trained these skill, after all I did train them, but there is a difference between patience and taking the cake, these skills are just completely flawed, no point to them what so ever and frankly it gets to me a little because this is a month of game time and frankly they must be trained so frankly it's not an option so frankly whats the point? these points should be integrated in to the character creation process or completely removed and lower skill training time, this would result in the same amount of training time overall minus a month or so for all for LV4. and I don't even want to get started on training learning to LV5. If thats being inpatient then I am Father Christmas I am willing to play this game and put the time in to it, I have planned over a year ahead and I'm all for it, I just don't see the point on the learning skills, it's a complete drain on the game, from what I have seen so far this game is great, has some stuff I don't like but I'm not going to get in to that here, overall the game is great, I just do not understand why things like learning skills exist. And why the hell do ships stop so far away from gates in auto pilot, there I said it lol, another whine, it's just pointless shit like this I seriously do...not...get... sorry for the huge QUOTE! I do not see ccp removing learning skills in a huge hurry. what noobs should do is... do two trial accounts. one does learning skills the other they get the basics for the game. be surprised on how MUCH learning one can get done in 3 weeks ( steam trial accounts ) I my self didnt do that I just did the mandatory grind lol. and quit ya whining about autopilot from gates at 15km. youre lucky to get WTZ.
Lycana	Posted - 2008.10.10 11:15:00 - [40] Originally by: TraderJoe's Learning skills probably hurt real newbies - or at least diminishes their initial experience. Spending 30-days in a tier 1 frig while pushing learning skills will drive many to quit. Skipping it will gimp them over the long term. It's not particularly damaging for a real newb to spend a month training skills to help missioning or mining or what have you and then spend the next month training learning skills. Or they could bounce back and forth, or just do the longer learning skill levels on days they aren't playing/while they sleep, or use learning skills as a time dump to avoid having a skill finish six hours before they can get back to the computer, etc. You do want to get them trained up, of course, but since the gap widens over time, there's surprisingly little damage done by waiting a few weeks right at the start.

AKULA UrQuan Caldari Druuge Crimson Corporation	Posted - 2008.10.12 13:50:00 - [41] Maybe I'm getting old..... The time it takes a new player to train all the learning skills to advanced IV is less than the time I spend training one skill, one level.
Malcanis RuffRyders Axiom Empire	Posted - 2008.10.12 14:33:00 - [42] Originally by: TraderJoe's The point of learning skills is to make it easier for experienced players to create alts. They are the ones who can realistically take the ænormalÆ path of creating a trial account, then training all the shorter learning skills during the two week period, then dark training one of the longer learning skills. Learning skills probably hurt real newbies - or at least diminishes their initial experience. Spending 30-days in a tier 1 frig while pushing learning skills will drive many to quit. Skipping it will gimp them over the long term. The morons who advise newbies to do this should be banned tbh.
Avalon Champion Gallente Defence Evaluation Research Agency	Posted - 2008.10.13 07:35:00 - [43] Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: TraderJoe's The point of learning skills is to make it easier for experienced players to create alts. They are the ones who can realistically take the ænormalÆ path of creating a trial account, then training all the shorter learning skills during the two week period, then dark training one of the longer learning skills. Learning skills probably hurt real newbies - or at least diminishes their initial experience. Spending 30-days in a tier 1 frig while pushing learning skills will drive many to quit. Skipping it will gimp them over the long term. The morons who advise newbies to do this should be banned tbh. Couldnt agree more, but when asking in the starter corps which skills a noob should train the response is always Learning 5, basic learning skills 5, and advanced 4, along with Science 3 and cybernetics 3, before training anything else. This is bad advice, IMOH, Learning skills are a necessity for any skill with a training time greater than x3, and level 5 skills, for noobs in the first month they arent really necessary, more necessary are the basic tier 1 skills like gunnery, mechanic, electronics, engineering, drones, spaceship command. As for flying in a t1 frig for 30 days while they train learning why? you can easily be in a cruiser or bc within 28 days without the aid of learning skills (granted the fitting will be poor) but its achievable and good enough for PvE level 2's. where does 30 days in a t1 frig come from, the basic skills are about 2 days each to level 4 from the base starting point, even the advanced Skills to level 3 are only 1 day each (max), so to get at +7 on any starting attribute thats 3 days, so 12-15 days to get a +7 on all skills, as you train the learning so the time drops on the others. In fact you can probably drop the empathy and Presence from the equation for the first 2 months as charisma primarily only affects the social and leadership skills. Personally I only have my basic learning skills to level 4, and the advanced to a combination of 3/4 and Its not impacted me that much (BS5 hac's, hics, recons, T2 weapons and mods), +3 implants for the last 6 months. On an alt i did do the basic learning skills to 5 and advanced to 4, and a 9-10 months down the road its started to pay off. As for CCP getting rid of them and raising everyones base by +10, i dont think it will happen, as its far too ingrained in the system and too many have invested training time in those skills. The only way it could work is to give people the opportunity to reinvest the points in other skills.
NL Nataku Manson Family Liberty.	Posted - 2008.10.13 15:37:00 - [44] Well concerning the learning skills. It might be worth thinking about putting a next step of learning skills like the advanced skills we got. This helped people catch up a bit and get easier into the game. The longer the game progresses the bigger the cap becomes between new and older players. With extra learning skills availeble newer players could come into the game faster but i am happy with how it is but this might be a option and everybody could be happy with this because noone loses anything i think. Now there is however something that i would love to see. At the time when i first started playing and was a complete noob i did not really know what my stats were for or how to put my stats correctly so i ended up just doing something. Now as time passes by your learn whats its for and it would be put into proper use. But that happened after i point i really did not wanted to start all over again and i certainly are not going to redo my character at this point in time. Now my stats are not that bad guesse however i would like to see them diffrently and i know a few of my friends do have horrible stats (i actually have one who has 13 charisma with only 2 points in the rank 1 skill for it). So having the option to redo your stats would be something i would love to see and i would pay a small fee for it if it were possible. Yes i know this would allow people to switch from industry to combat but in the end what do you care if they can. And if its such a problem make it only availeble once a year. Greetz Nata
Malcolm Gerwulf	Posted - 2008.10.14 07:29:00 - [45] Originally by: Quardol This is exactly why learning skills will never go away [time sink]. CCP is a business - the longer you pay, the more money they make. Absolutely agree, learning skills are an obvious time sink. It can be argued that they serve different purposes, but primarily they exist as a time sink to increase subscription time. Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: TraderJoe's The point of learning skills is to make it easier for experienced players to create alts. They are the ones who can realistically take the ænormalÆ path of creating a trial account, then training all the shorter learning skills during the two week period, then dark training one of the longer learning skills. Learning skills probably hurt real newbies - or at least diminishes their initial experience. Spending 30-days in a tier 1 frig while pushing learning skills will drive many to quit. Skipping it will gimp them over the long term. The morons who advise newbies to do this should be banned tbh. Common sense dictates that the learning skills should be trained first in order to fly the ships you want. Most players that are dedicated enough to stick with the game will realize that the learning skills give more benefit when trained sooner rather than later. Therefore it feels like a lose-lose situation; either gimp yourself early by not training the learning skills (and forget the power-gamer mentality that demands maximum SP learning efficiency), or pay $20 for the first month spent in a T1 Frigate with few weapon/support skills. I imagine that most new players grab a few basic non-learning skills, but the pressure to train learning before hopping into a cruiser is very real.
Malcanis RuffRyders Axiom Empire	Posted - 2008.10.14 12:25:00 - [46] Originally by: Malcolm Gerwulf Originally by: Quardol This is exactly why learning skills will never go away [time sink]. CCP is a business - the longer you pay, the more money they make. Absolutely agree, learning skills are an obvious time sink. It can be argued that they serve different purposes, but primarily they exist as a time sink to increase subscription time. Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: TraderJoe's The point of learning skills is to make it easier for experienced players to create alts. They are the ones who can realistically take the ænormalÆ path of creating a trial account, then training all the shorter learning skills during the two week period, then dark training one of the longer learning skills. Learning skills probably hurt real newbies - or at least diminishes their initial experience. Spending 30-days in a tier 1 frig while pushing learning skills will drive many to quit. Skipping it will gimp them over the long term. The morons who advise newbies to do this should be banned tbh. Common sense dictates that the learning skills should be trained first in order to fly the ships you want. Most players that are dedicated enough to stick with the game will realize that the learning skills give more benefit when trained sooner rather than later. Therefore it feels like a lose-lose situation; either gimp yourself early by not training the learning skills (and forget the power-gamer mentality that demands maximum SP learning efficiency), or pay $20 for the first month spent in a T1 Frigate with few weapon/support skills. I imagine that most new players grab a few basic non-learning skills, but the pressure to train learning before hopping into a cruiser is very real. You're speaking as if there's no middle ground between spinning ships until learnings are at 5+5 and not training any learnings at all. You can get something like 90-95% of the SP/Hr of a maxed learning skill guy with learnngs at 4+4, which takes, what? A month to do if you're spending 50% of your time on learnings, or even less if you leave charisma out. Skipping that last 100-200 SP/hr for a couple of months won't "cripple" anyone.
pimpdaddypayne	Posted - 2008.10.16 15:03:00 - [47] Edited by: pimpdaddypayne on 16/10/2008 15:03:43 Edited by: pimpdaddypayne on 16/10/2008 15:03:12
Empress Helena	Posted - 2008.11.04 20:48:00 - [48] one has to ask if those of you who think the learning skills are a time sink do you think collage in rl is a time sink? the fact that you invest the time to make you character "smarter" if you will is always good imo. not one person has to train them it is up to them...so if you don't like them don't train them and you will see as your fellow pilots advance quickly why you should have invested the time. It is a game but it is made to be fairly realistic and as we all should know things pay off better typically when you put in the time. if you want instant and fast you are in the wrong game plain and simple....
Uzume Ame	Posted - 2008.11.05 00:21:00 - [49] Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Malcolm Gerwulf You're speaking as if there's no middle ground between spinning ships until learnings are at 5+5 and not training any learnings at all. You can get something like 90-95% of the SP/Hr of a maxed learning skill guy with learnngs at 4+4, which takes, what? A month to do if you're spending 50% of your time on learnings, or even less if you leave charisma out. Skipping that last 100-200 SP/hr for a couple of months won't "cripple" anyone. Quoating for absolute truth. Just fire eve-mon and make 2/3 months plans and follow his advice. Also any noob should gor for cybernetics I ASAP, heck +1/+2 implants are cheap.
Rachel Voegel	Posted - 2008.11.05 10:31:00 - [50] Originally by: Dr NAthan And the argument of "well you don't actually have to learn any of the learning skills, that's up to you" is just not valid, anyone who plays the game knows that these skills have to be learn no matter what. and eventually in almost all cases will be trained to lv4 minimum. When I started this character I more or less alternated between combat skill and learning skill. One rule of thumb you could use is "only train the next level of learning skills when the combined time is less than the next skill you wish to train".

brinelan Caldari Victory Not Vengeance Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2008.11.05 19:00:00 - [51] Edited by: brinelan on 05/11/2008 19:01:25 Originally by: Quardol Common sense dictates that the learning skills should be trained first in order to fly the ships you want. Most players that are dedicated enough to stick with the game will realize that the learning skills give more benefit when trained sooner rather than later. Therefore it feels like a lose-lose situation; either gimp yourself early by not training the learning skills (and forget the power-gamer mentality that demands maximum SP learning efficiency), or pay $20 for the first month spent in a T1 Frigate with few weapon/support skills. I imagine that most new players grab a few basic non-learning skills, but the pressure to train learning before hopping into a cruiser is very real. umm, i dont know if were playing the same game, but learning skills are not a prereq for any ship or module. There is no gimping yourself fo rnot training them up front unless youre a hardcore min-maxer. I have been playing for well over 2 years, my learning skills still need work, and I am nowhere near gimped. The same goes for many eve players. This "pressure" is only real because of people like you sayign that everyone must train learning skills and fly ibises for 2 months or else they cant train anything else. New players should be told to mix in learning and combat skills so they can go out and do fun stuff and work on learning as they learn how to play. I totally agree with the sentiments of the poster above that said that anyone who tells newbies that they ahve to do learnings before getting out of their newbie ship must be banned -------------------------- Some days you're the bug, some days you're the windshield
Khoda Khan Minmatar Madar Kheyl tribe Zantiu-Braun Alliance	Posted - 2008.11.12 22:58:00 - [52] My first character started the game with around 13,000 sp. So many people in those days complained about the character creation process. It was unfair because if you knew what you were doing you could create a character with over 300k sp while most options left you in the 20,000 sp range. It was bad for the vaunted New Player Experience because it took sooooooo much training time to do anything at all. I'd be willing to go back to pre-Revelations character creation if only to hear CCP's NUBs (New User Base) whine even more. !Khoda
Keran Seil	Posted - 2008.11.13 07:12:00 - [53] Originally by: MMXMMX I think we need some new leurning books more leurning books = better . The book : Genius leurning Rank 15 Description : A genius is a person of great intelligence or remarkable abilities in a specific subject, who shows an exceptional natural capacity of intellect This book ads 2 points per level to all leurning skils. You need to "leurn" how to spell "learn".
Obyrith	Posted - 2008.11.16 21:19:00 - [54] Originally by: Arkeladin The patience it takes to train the learning skills (and ANYONE who trains them all to IV as the first thing they do in EvE is a absolute fool) translates over very will intot he rest of the real-time-based training timesink. The reward is down the road, when skills that would take a month to train take less time - it's been said that you only fully realize the benefits of the learning skills a year and a half into EvE. Whether or not that's true I'm not gonna comment on :) Win. Another way of looking at learning skills (which probably explains why CCP introduced them) is that the choice of whether or not to train them really confronts new players to with the reality of investing months of time in playing the game before you see your investments payoff. Having a mechanic which encourages long-term planning probably helps CCP keep people hooked for long time periods as they decide in advance to wait until their decisions pays off.
Obyrith	Posted - 2008.11.16 21:38:00 - [55] Edited by: Obyrith on 16/11/2008 21:44:15 Edited by: Obyrith on 16/11/2008 21:40:27 Originally by: TraderJoe's Learning skills probably hurt real newbies - or at least diminishes their initial experience. Spending 30-days in a tier 1 frig while pushing learning skills will drive many to quit. Skipping it will gimp them over the long term. Any new player who spends a month exclusively maxing Learning skills before they have other skills, is missing the point and deserves to be punished with a month in tier 1 frigates. But it's nice that they have the option. Any player who declares learning skills pointless and doesn't train them is also missing the point and deserves to wind up lagging behind players who trained them - But it's nice that they have the option. IMHO learning skills are another opportunity to do interesting cost-benefit analysis on my character's development. I didn't train them all early, but now I'm up to battleship and near soloing level 4s I'm taking them all up to 5/5/5/5/5/5/4/4/4/4/4. I'm also delaying some depending on the non-learning skills I want to train in-between maxing a particular attribute. This feels like a positive result of the system to me.
Acrel Amarr Atomic Reaction	Posted - 2008.11.16 22:46:00 - [56] Really what should be done is keeping learning skills in game and merging all the basic skills into 1 skill and advanced into another.. This way it would reduce the training time while adding the benefits and trials of doing learning skills. Just a thought
Lusian	Posted - 2008.11.17 02:01:00 - [57] Originally by: Aesynil I believe CCP devs have said learning skills were a mistake to implement, and something they regret, but they're stuck in the game now, as every character in existence knows them. Yea, there really no way around them. All we cam do is hope they introduce learning skills that will increase the speed of skill training.
Acrel Amarr Atomic Reaction	Posted - 2008.11.17 02:33:00 - [58] Originally by: Lusian Originally by: Aesynil I believe CCP devs have said learning skills were a mistake to implement, and something they regret, but they're stuck in the game now, as every character in existence knows them. Yea, there really no way around them. All we cam do is hope they introduce learning skills that will increase the speed of skill training. Already is.. Its the Learning Skill.
Koryvarn Infusion. G00DFELLAS	Posted - 2008.11.17 03:34:00 - [59] The best solution to the learning skill problem is giving all characters all the basic learning skills to 4 right from the start. New players wont have the cash to buy the advanced ones straight away, so they can train important things while they get the cash. EVE is much more exciting when you're training useful skills.


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