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Re Mi Caldari Funshine Unlimited	Posted - 2008.09.30 06:20:00 - [1] Consider this, how many alliances have lost their space in the past 3 months? How many people will look at this rcent NC coalition defeat and say that holding space in EvE is impossible or pointless. A larger force was massacred due to lag, that is a fact. The fact that this happens seems to defy the imagination. You can make excuses, you can say whatever you want about pvp skills or planning or servers or anything else, those words fall on deaf ears. There is a huge problem with this situation, it is symbolic of and emphasizes a much larger trend. This kind of event undermines the idea of endgame level pvp scenarios in EvE in the minds of players. An essential ingredient in this game is to suspend your belief, to pretend you are an avatar in a world of internet spaceships. This is a story land and a fantasy. We are intrepid pod pilots making our way in a hostile universe, this is our fictional existence. By killing off the endgame scenario, of cap ships and holding space, as an idea players desire to hold, you burst the bubble that suspends us in this world of imagination. A meta world derived from real life has intruded into our carefully constructed reality, and the bubble we live in may blip out of existence as a result. Our avatars become limited, crippled in thought and distant in our imagination. Once that bubble evaporates, EvE is a chat room that happens to have internet spaceships. People may stay for friends for a time, but the magic will be gone. This is not a situation that can be fixed with a petition at that point. This was not a victory for anyone. This was an atrocity. Back on Retainer. I am cheap but not easy.
Re Mi Caldari Funshine Unlimited	Posted - 2008.09.30 06:20:00 - [2] Consider this, how many alliances have lost their space in the past 3 months? How many people will look at this rcent NC coalition defeat and say that holding space in EvE is impossible or pointless. A larger force was massacred due to lag, that is a fact. The fact that this happens seems to defy the imagination. You can make excuses, you can say whatever you want about pvp skills or planning or servers or anything else, those words fall on deaf ears. There is a huge problem with this situation, it is symbolic of and emphasizes a much larger trend. This kind of event undermines the idea of endgame level pvp scenarios in EvE in the minds of players. An essential ingredient in this game is to suspend your belief, to pretend you are an avatar in a world of internet spaceships. This is a story land and a fantasy. We are intrepid pod pilots making our way in a hostile universe, this is our fictional existence. By killing off the endgame scenario, of cap ships and holding space, as an idea players desire to hold, you burst the bubble that suspends us in this world of imagination. A meta world derived from real life has intruded into our carefully constructed reality, and the bubble we live in may blip out of existence as a result. Our avatars become limited, crippled in thought and distant in our imagination. Once that bubble evaporates, EvE is a chat room that happens to have internet spaceships. People may stay for friends for a time, but the magic will be gone. This is not a situation that can be fixed with a petition at that point. This was not a victory for anyone. This was an atrocity.
ElrondMD The Arrow Project Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.09.30 06:21:00 - [3] Your just going to get trolled by whichever entity in eve most recently benefited from a lag induced turkey shoot.
ElrondMD The Arrow Project Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.09.30 06:21:00 - [4] Your just going to get trolled by whichever entity in eve most recently benefited from a lag induced turkey shoot.
Re Mi Caldari Funshine Unlimited	Posted - 2008.09.30 06:25:00 - [5] Originally by: ElrondMD Your just going to get trolled by whichever entity in eve most recently benefited from a lag induced turkey shoot. My post is too meta. The more they troll me, the more power I receive. Back on Retainer. I am cheap but not easy.
Re Mi Caldari Funshine Unlimited	Posted - 2008.09.30 06:25:00 - [6] Originally by: ElrondMD Your just going to get trolled by whichever entity in eve most recently benefited from a lag induced turkey shoot. My post is too meta. The more they troll me, the more power I receive.
Angelonico Series of Tubes	Posted - 2008.09.30 06:40:00 - [7] Originally by: ElrondMD Your just going to get trolled by whichever entity in eve most recently benefited from a lag induced turkey shoot. Well put.
128th ABC123 Eve Liberation Force Liberty.	Posted - 2008.09.30 06:54:00 - [8] Signed. Devs & mods, print this out and take it to your next staff meeting.
Delichon The First Foundation SOLAR FLEET	Posted - 2008.09.30 07:11:00 - [9] Originally by: Re Mi stuff So you are saying that killing off an enemy alliance is bad and we should all be friends? Or you are speifically against killing people in lag? If you are talking about the former - I wonder how long would it take for someone to make a Hello-Kitty Online reference. If you are talking about the later - well, a) I doubt there is something a party, that benefits from lag in one particular instance, can do about it (stop shooting?) b) I would not trust in the e-honor and don't believe an opposing FC would hold fire if I have not loaded grid yet - so I need to shoot him before he loads to even up the score c) Eve is a game with no ethics, only laws (e.g. EULA) You create your own ethics - inside a corp, inside an ally.
Phyrron Gallente Omega Fleet Enterprises Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2008.09.30 07:19:00 - [10] Originally by: Re Mi Consider this, how many alliances have lost their space in the past 3 months? How many people will look at this rcent NC coalition defeat and say that holding space in EvE is impossible or pointless. A larger force was massacred due to lag, that is a fact. The fact that this happens seems to defy the imagination. You can make excuses, you can say whatever you want about pvp skills or planning or servers or anything else, those words fall on deaf ears. There is a huge problem with this situation, it is symbolic of and emphasizes a much larger trend. This kind of event undermines the idea of endgame level pvp scenarios in EvE in the minds of players. An essential ingredient in this game is to suspend your belief, to pretend you are an avatar in a world of internet spaceships. This is a story land and a fantasy. We are intrepid pod pilots making our way in a hostile universe, this is our fictional existence. By killing off the endgame scenario, of cap ships and holding space, as an idea players desire to hold, you burst the bubble that suspends us in this world of imagination. A meta world derived from real life has intruded into our carefully constructed reality, and the bubble we live in may blip out of existence as a result. Our avatars become limited, crippled in thought and distant in our imagination. Once that bubble evaporates, EvE is a chat room that happens to have internet spaceships. People may stay for friends for a time, but the magic will be gone. This is not a situation that can be fixed with a petition at that point. This was not a victory for anyone. This was an atrocity. Thats not too meta, u hit the point m8. CCP has no interest in end-game gameplay! I think they know exactly that they cant manage more than 300k pilots in one system without nodecrashs. And i think they know exactly that they cant manage this problem generally in the next 1,2 or 3 years, because the hole basic approach of EVEs soft- and hardware has no reserve to manage such numbers of pvp playing people.
Ikira Onimareu Life Extermination	Posted - 2008.09.30 07:54:00 - [11] Quote: Thats not too meta, u hit the point m8. CCP has no interest in end-game gameplay! I think they know exactly that they cant manage more than 300k pilots in one system without nodecrashs. And i think they know exactly that they cant manage this problem generally in the next 1,2 or 3 years, because the hole basic approach of EVEs soft- and hardware has no reserve to manage such numbers of pvp playing people. I want to know where all the money we pay CCP goes. I for one do not know why they are screwing with walking around in stations when we can't have a descent 50 on 50 man fight in a non-reinforced node. Time to get off the 486 dx/4 servers and maybe upgrade to a Pentium 200mhz server instead?? /sarcasm Just my 2 isk
Kirra Liu Perkone	Posted - 2008.09.30 08:18:00 - [12] Edited by: Kirra Liu on 30/09/2008 08:19:01 Originally by: Phyrron I think they know exactly that they cant manage more than 300k pilots in one system without nodecrashs. I think we all know and respect the fact that the server can't manage more than 300'000 pilots in one system. edit: just realised, yes I'm in a NPC corp, but after downtime I'll be back in a corp again, pls don't mod me
cptgone	Posted - 2008.09.30 08:20:00 - [13] cloning services shouldn't be targetable. a strong invader can disable them very fast, so that podded pilots find themselves trapped in station. this encourages defenders to move their medical clone away from the front.
Ikira Onimareu Life Extermination	Posted - 2008.09.30 08:26:00 - [14] Originally by: cptgone cloning services shouldn't be targetable. a strong invader can disable them very fast, so that podded pilots find themselves trapped in station. this encourages defenders to move their medical clone away from the front. Too many ppl with ADD post on here.
Heptameron Gallente Octavian Vanguard RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.09.30 09:37:00 - [15] Last nights fight in m-o was what CCP keep advertising, it was PvP at it's finest with massive entities prepared to throw everything they have at each other. This could have been THE biggest fight ever in the history of eve, it's what that superb marketing video is trying to sell. Except for the bit about looking at a black screen for 4 hours.... I know this happened to both sides for the most part and it was a complete lottery who got in first, but sides apart look at what we buy every month. Let's use analogies for the dim witted who are already typing the usual verbal tripe about NC whines bla bla... this is about the game as a whole and not because we were on the spanked side. If you go out and buy a Ferrari only to find it has a fiat 126 engine would you complain? Buy a fireblade 1000 only to find it's been restricted to 30mph, pick up a sunseeker speedboat only to find no engine, just a pair of oars... would you be happy with any of those scenarios?? Somehow I think not. We are sold and still pay for a game that is fundamentally flawed, don't get me wrong it's a great game and even 5 years down the line i still look forward to logging in, so no, you can't have my stuff. But play styles, decisions and tactics should not be based on server performance, they should be based on how your virtual character would react in the 'story land and fantasy' yes it was an atrocity, not the first, definitley not the last and most importantly and most dangerously has set a precedent for the 'gain ground any way, any how, at any cost' brigade.
Tholarim Amarr Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.09.30 09:41:00 - [16] Originally by: Heptameron yes it was an atrocity, not the first, definitley not the last and most importantly and most dangerously has set a precedent for the 'gain ground any way, any how, at any cost' brigade. you reap what you sow.
Heptameron Gallente Octavian Vanguard RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.09.30 09:52:00 - [17] Originally by: Tholarim Originally by: Heptameron yes it was an atrocity, not the first, definitley not the last and most importantly and most dangerously has set a precedent for the 'gain ground any way, any how, at any cost' brigade. you reap what you sow. and just how did we sow this one pray tell??
Rob Z0mbie	Posted - 2008.09.30 09:55:00 - [18] Originally by: Ikira Onimareu Originally by: cptgone snip Posting with an unidentified character and characters in NPC corporations in this forum is prohibited. If you wish to participate in the discussions here, be sure to have your corporation and or alliance status ticked in your forum settings. Additionally, using an Alt Corp to post is also not permitted-Navigator([email protected]) Too many ppl with ADD post on here. Why so Racsit=P I got ADHD, and i agree with OP =P
DirtySnipe Warped Mining	Posted - 2008.09.30 10:01:00 - [19] Edited by: DirtySnipe on 30/09/2008 10:05:08 I was not present for last nights battle due to GF pwnage, however I was at the last M-O node crash, and the problem is for all our COAD complaining, CCP will never spend the real money needed to fix the game when, with all the problems, 35k-40k people still log in on a regular basis. People will stil continue to pay their subscriptions. I can not see a mass exodus of people from the game. Effectively they have us by the balls. Although I have just purchased warhammer online, and from all the reports it is an excelent game. CCP need to wake up and start paying attention, because as soon as people realise there may be a game to compete... BYE BYE SUBSCRIPTIONS. EDIT FOR GRAMMER/SPELLING
Heptameron Gallente Octavian Vanguard RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.09.30 10:16:00 - [20] Originally by: DirtySnipe Edited by: DirtySnipe on 30/09/2008 10:06:33 I was not present for last nights battle due to GF pwnage, however I was at the last M-O node crash, and the problem is for all our COAD complaining, CCP will never spend the real money needed to fix the game when, with all the problems, 35k-40k people still log in on a regular basis. People will stil continue to pay their subscriptions. I can not see a mass exodus of people from the game. Effectively they have us by the balls. Although I have just purchased warhammer online, and from all the reports it is an excelent game. CCP need to wake up and start paying attention, because as soon as people realise there may be a game to compete (not saying at this point warhammer is such a game)... BYE BYE SUBSCRIPTIONS. EDIT FOR GRAMMER/SPELLING Personally i think we all agree to a 48 hr wardec and go to Jita and fight outside the station..... Eve style strike!
Dark Angelete Gallente Dark Angel Battalion	Posted - 2008.09.30 10:27:00 - [21] Originally by: Heptameron Originally by: Tholarim Originally by: Heptameron yes it was an atrocity, not the first, definitley not the last and most importantly and most dangerously has set a precedent for the 'gain ground any way, any how, at any cost' brigade. you reap what you sow. and just how did we sow this one pray tell?? think he means how gayzor and mm noobies love to whine on the forums about lagged up situations.yet you have thrived on bringing numbers and soaking in players for the sake of players>numbers<.how does a group of players that on purpose brought as many people possible to a conflict just for the same reason your seeing now in your own space.now we get to taste the tears of what it is like the other way around.what is funny is the gayzor alt that posted this is almost as bad as the mm alt posts these last few days.
William DeMeo Gallente Genos Occidere deadspace society	Posted - 2008.09.30 10:31:00 - [22] lolol bob winning is always as amusing. Yarr
David Goodwill The Knights Templar	Posted - 2008.09.30 10:48:00 - [23] Originally by: Tholarim Originally by: Heptameron yes it was an atrocity, not the first, definitley not the last and most importantly and most dangerously has set a precedent for the 'gain ground any way, any how, at any cost' brigade. you reap what you sow. Tbh, coming from the alliance that paraded it was bringing 1000 pilots to the north, is a bit hypocritical.
Minigin eXceed Inc. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.09.30 11:16:00 - [24] Edited by: Minigin on 30/09/2008 11:22:00 could you for once just maybe consider that you are losing for any reason other than lag or haxsploit? edit: also thol you stole mah wordz and made dem better wif spellingz . MINIGIN! The original colour poster - now surrounding you in limegreen.
Captain Zepos Caldari En plo	Posted - 2008.09.30 11:22:00 - [25] Nice post thanx. i agree 100%
Huan Hunglong Intensive CareBearz	Posted - 2008.09.30 11:23:00 - [26] Originally by: Ikira Onimareu I want to know where all the money we pay CCP goes. Where the money goes, is not your concern. No more than where the money goes after you buy a loaf of bread, some petrol a car or a house. CCP could be wiping their arse on the money if they want, its their money.
zoolkhan Minmatar Mirkur Draug'Tyr Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.09.30 11:36:00 - [27] Originally by: Re Mi Consider this, how many alliances have lost their space in the past 3 months? How many people will look at this rcent NC coalition defeat and say that holding space in EvE is impossible or pointless. A larger force was massacred due to lag, that is a fact. The fact that this happens seems to defy the imagination. You can make excuses, you can say whatever you want about pvp skills or planning or servers or anything else, those words fall on deaf ears. There is a huge problem with this situation, it is symbolic of and emphasizes a much larger trend. This kind of event undermines the idea of endgame level pvp scenarios in EvE in the minds of players. An essential ingredient in this game is to suspend your belief, to pretend you are an avatar in a world of internet spaceships. This is a story land and a fantasy. We are intrepid pod pilots making our way in a hostile universe, this is our fictional existence. By killing off the endgame scenario, of cap ships and holding space, as an idea players desire to hold, you burst the bubble that suspends us in this world of imagination. A meta world derived from real life has intruded into our carefully constructed reality, and the bubble we live in may blip out of existence as a result. Our avatars become limited, crippled in thought and distant in our imagination. Once that bubble evaporates, EvE is a chat room that happens to have internet spaceships. People may stay for friends for a time, but the magic will be gone. This is not a situation that can be fixed with a petition at that point. This was not a victory for anyone. This was an atrocity. according to my experience when losing dreads against lag (in our case it was just 6 at once desynch etc.. ) the answer "we see no server side evidence" is not exactly helping it. i admire those who work honest to replace such a billion isk loss w/o the help of ebay and paypal. but capital pilots who just dont bother anymore, fans of fleetfight who lose all illusions and all fun along with it in those nodecrash events they would agree with you and see what other games the market keeps avail. these nodecrashes now happen since many years, and one might think a solution to that could have been invented with the same dedication as fleetfights are promoted by CCP. they want us to blob, they want us to do epic figts, they create instruments that make it necessary to blob if you want to conquer space or hold it against conquerors. (cynojamming for the win, what 15 dreads once could do - now requires 50 battleships) i would not blame the one who adapts the tactics to benefit from these sad facts, and i would not blame those who just give up. i do , however, blame an ontherwise fine company in iceland for their lack of activity and not tackling this most critical problem in the past 3 yrs. recruiting -forum
Shardrael Caldari Titan Industries Technology Team Shadow of xXDEATHXx	Posted - 2008.09.30 11:46:00 - [28] you know what the lag and node crash outright suck, there is no denying it. when it changes the outcome of a battle it is all the more bitter. however this stuff is not news, it has been happening for as long as I have been playing the game, your only useful option is to suck it up and plan for the next one, maybe your side will be able to log in faster next time? who knows but giving up because of shite servers as far as your enemy is concerned is the same thing as being defeated. all you can do is get back in the fight and keep fighting tell the servers catch fire.
Taldeer uithwe	Posted - 2008.09.30 12:07:00 - [29] very strange that only hostile forces get massacred facing lag or node crash. never heard of a bob fleet got destroyed due to that...strange..
Unfunny Alt Anonymous Forumposters	Posted - 2008.09.30 12:15:00 - [30] Originally by: Re Mi Consider this, how many alliances have lost their space in the past 3 months? How many people will look at this rcent NC coalition defeat and say that holding space in EvE is impossible or pointless. A larger force was massacred due to lag, that is a fact. The fact that this happens seems to defy the imagination. You can make excuses, you can say whatever you want about pvp skills or planning or servers or anything else, those words fall on deaf ears. There is a huge problem with this situation, it is symbolic of and emphasizes a much larger trend. This kind of event undermines the idea of endgame level pvp scenarios in EvE in the minds of players. And it is going to get worse. Anyone of us who is in 0.0 is there because he got lucky at one time or another. Doesn't matter the skills you have, without having the luck finding the group you are in, you'd not be where you are now. New groups formed in empire will have it a lot harder to compete against existing 0.0 entities. Is there any place a new entity can claim space (either in true no sec or npc no sec) and not encounter 200 people blobs? So new player wanting to get into 0.0 will have to join existing entities and the powerblocks will just become bigger and bigger. And the lag pendulum will swing more and more. What I'd like to see is something to make it easier holding small amounts of space, making it harder holding lots of space. And a way to contenst ownership of a system or constellation while being on diffrent nodes. How those things could look like I have no idea, only vague hopes. On the other hand, laggy fleetbattles always existed. So hopefully its not as grim as it could be. Poster and Hauling Alt of Policy Handicapped Main
Kal'Orellian Aggressive Tendencies Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2008.09.30 12:43:00 - [31] Every new major conflict sees more and more numbers brought to the battlefied. 2 years ago 20 caps would win a war, then 50, then 100, now it's in the hundreds. CCP will continually bring out new harware but as soon as they do it wil be tested to its limits and these limits will be exceeded by the player base causing lag and node deaths. The only solution is to limit the number of people who turn up for a fight. I have no idea how this can be done. I was flying through Catch the other day - the whole place was empty and friends report to me that huge areas of 0.0 accross the map is similarly empty while everyone congreagates at the PvP hot points. Of course the servers are going to die. Kal.
Re Mi Caldari Funshine Unlimited	Posted - 2008.09.30 14:34:00 - [32] Originally by: Shardrael you know what the lag and node crash outright suck, there is no denying it. when it changes the outcome of a battle it is all the more bitter. however this stuff is not news, it has been happening for as long as I have been playing the game, your only useful option is to suck it up and plan for the next one, maybe your side will be able to log in faster next time? who knows but giving up because of shite servers as far as your enemy is concerned is the same thing as being defeated. all you can do is get back in the fight and keep fighting tell the servers catch fire. When you are defending your home and get set on a path, not to lose a battle, to LOSE YOUR SPACE because of faulty game mechanics when you have a capable and credible defense, that is a big problem. How do you defend against a force that by definition of its size leads to only two possible outcomes. 1.) You fill the server to capacity, in which case you are outgunned and die. 2.) You fill the server beyond capacity, in which case the node crashes and you die. Who wants to play this game? This process will be repeated until this space is taken over. The outcome is a foregone conclusion no matter what level of forces are brought to bear. This is how end game cap ship scenarios are played out these days.
Faife Minmatar Noctiscion The Black Isle	Posted - 2008.09.30 14:53:00 - [33] Originally by: Re Mi Consider this, how many alliances have lost their space in the past 3 months? How many people will look at this rcent NC coalition defeat and say that holding space in EvE is impossible or pointless. A larger force was massacred due to lag, that is a fact. The fact that this happens seems to defy the imagination. You can make excuses, you can say whatever you want about pvp skills or planning or servers or anything else, those words fall on deaf ears. There is a huge problem with this situation, it is symbolic of and emphasizes a much larger trend. This kind of event undermines the idea of endgame level pvp scenarios in EvE in the minds of players. An essential ingredient in this game is to suspend your belief, to pretend you are an avatar in a world of internet spaceships. This is a story land and a fantasy. We are intrepid pod pilots making our way in a hostile universe, this is our fictional existence. By killing off the endgame scenario, of cap ships and holding space, as an idea players desire to hold, you burst the bubble that suspends us in this world of imagination. A meta world derived from real life has intruded into our carefully constructed reality, and the bubble we live in may blip out of existence as a result. Our avatars become limited, crippled in thought and distant in our imagination. Once that bubble evaporates, EvE is a chat room that happens to have internet spaceships. People may stay for friends for a time, but the magic will be gone. This is not a situation that can be fixed with a petition at that point. This was not a victory for anyone. This was an atrocity. if it's impossible to defend, then why not go attack? or is that impossible too?
Mistress Suffering Einherjar Rising Cry Havoc.	Posted - 2008.09.30 15:02:00 - [34] Originally by: Shardrael however this stuff is not news, it has been happening for as long as I have been playing the game Yes it has. Why would that make it acceptable? Game mechanics work such that the ideal number of people to bring to any engagement is as many as possible, right up to the point where the game crashes. Telling people not to bring pilots is idiotic. That's exactly what EVE rewards during all of its play. Those giant multi-alliance blocs didn't show up because being a 25 PvP entity was the most efficient path around. Gameplay problems like this are in CCP's court. Either change the gameplay such that more isn't better (instanced, etc...) or solve the network issues.
Re Mi Caldari Funshine Unlimited	Posted - 2008.09.30 15:28:00 - [35] Originally by: Moonlight Express Originally by: Taldeer uithwe very strange that only hostile forces get massacred facing lag or node crash. never heard of a bob fleet got destroyed due to that...strange.. Maybe it's because BoB does not run to the forums to whine every time they lose a fleet to lag like they did last week, but NC sure runs to the forums to tell people how uber they are when they turkey shoot BoB. Strange. Making this about BoB misses the point. There is a broader issue of fair play at stake here. Back on Retainer. I am cheap but not easy.
Re Mi Caldari Funshine Unlimited	Posted - 2008.09.30 15:32:00 - [36] Originally by: Faife if it's impossible to defend, then why not go attack? Good point. But where do you attack? Back on Retainer. I am cheap but not easy.
Simone deMoley	Posted - 2008.09.30 15:34:00 - [37] Originally by: DirtySnipe Edited by: DirtySnipe on 30/09/2008 10:06:33 I was not present for last nights battle due to GF pwnage, however I was at the last M-O node crash, and the problem is for all our COAD complaining, CCP will never spend the real money needed to fix the game when, with all the problems, 35k-40k people still log in on a regular basis. People will stil continue to pay their subscriptions. I can not see a mass exodus of people from the game. Effectively they have us by the balls. Although I have just purchased warhammer online, and from all the reports it is an excelent game. CCP need to wake up and start paying attention, because as soon as people realise there may be a game to compete (not saying at this point warhammer is such a game)... BYE BYE SUBSCRIPTIONS. EDIT FOR GRAMMER/SPELLING there is no pressure on CCP and no incalculable risc that they lose to much custumers. So long as young, fascinated and wondering new players subscribed that game and this inputnumbers are larger than frustrated and bored end-gamers leaving so long is anything alright in the hole universe. Thats all a question of marketing. It cost a lot more energie (that means money) to boost a system high than to make it horizontally flat. That means no end-game with tons of Titans, MS, Carriers and Dreads and a mass of support and real humans intelligence to handle such thinks, that means more factional warfare and KI-based action. EVE as a themeparc or a kind of Hollywoodparc with a lot of entertainment and other crap. I love this game because of its complexity and its selforganised capacity. I lock down one¦s nose at 'wow' player or other kiddygamers and say: EVE is more than a game, EVE is the best and sum of all gamers abilities and... we make this game day by day and not the game set the border of what we can do. I hope CCP remember what EVE really is.
Meat Bucket Crush Kill Destroy	Posted - 2008.09.30 21:29:00 - [38] Edited by: Meat Bucket on 30/09/2008 21:31:14 Edited by: Meat Bucket on 30/09/2008 21:30:50 I'd like to welcome everyone in this thread that is complaining about lag to start their own company, create a big game on one sever and do it right. Everyone here seems to know all about everything that is being done wrong. Why not rather than ***ing and moaning about what is so wrong, why don't you go create a game that does it right and put CCP out of business. Oh wait. It's really **ing hard, and there no damn way you could ever do it better. I'm guessing that's why you haven't done it yet. I have seen improvement in the efforts CCP have been making lately. While I share the frustration of the other posters in this thread I do realize the challenge of the problem and encourage progress.
Gumpy Nighthawk Amarr Octavian Vanguard RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.09.30 21:33:00 - [39] Originally by: Meat Bucket Edited by: Meat Bucket on 30/09/2008 21:31:14 Edited by: Meat Bucket on 30/09/2008 21:30:50 I'd like to welcome everyone in this thread that is complaining about lag to start their own company, create a big game on one sever and do it right. Serious if your servers can't handle big fleet battles, then don't advertise with epic fleet battles. Signature Locked. Please refrain from amending a moderated warning. Navigator
Skywalker Minmatar Coca-Cola Cowboys	Posted - 2008.09.30 21:36:00 - [40] Edited by: Skywalker on 30/09/2008 21:36:39 NC lost one battle and now they can't win anything because of node crashes ? Well both parties should have same issues and therefore win-some-loose some in the long run.
Shardrael Caldari Titan Industries Technology Team Shadow of xXDEATHXx	Posted - 2008.09.30 21:39:00 - [41] Originally by: Taldeer uithwe very strange that only hostile forces get massacred facing lag or node crash. never heard of a bob fleet got destroyed due to that...strange.. those of us keeping count find this a strange statistical anomaly as well. but it definetly couldnt be because bob had info on server mechanics before anyone else, cause that might be considered cheating and they probably dont do that...
Ikira Onimareu Life Extermination	Posted - 2008.09.30 21:51:00 - [42] Originally by: Gumpy Nighthawk Originally by: Meat Bucket Edited by: Meat Bucket on 30/09/2008 21:31:14 Edited by: Meat Bucket on 30/09/2008 21:30:50 I'd like to welcome everyone in this thread that is complaining about lag to start their own company, create a big game on one sever and do it right. Serious if your servers can't handle big fleet battles, then don't advertise with epic fleet battles. /signed
Ikira Onimareu Life Extermination	Posted - 2008.09.30 21:56:00 - [43] Let's stay on topic, this is not about BOB or MM or NC or your mom. The op is stating how lag and node crashes become part of planning an attack. This should not be the case as real world problems should not affect EVE or we lose immersion.
McKinlay KIA Corp KIA Alliance	Posted - 2008.09.30 21:57:00 - [44] Originally by: Re Mi Consider this, how many alliances have lost their space in the past 3 months? How many people will look at this rcent NC coalition defeat and say that holding space in EvE is impossible or pointless. A larger force was massacred due to lag, that is a fact. The fact that this happens seems to defy the imagination. You can make excuses, you can say whatever you want about pvp skills or planning or servers or anything else, those words fall on deaf ears. There is a huge problem with this situation, it is symbolic of and emphasizes a much larger trend. This kind of event undermines the idea of endgame level pvp scenarios in EvE in the minds of players. An essential ingredient in this game is to suspend your belief, to pretend you are an avatar in a world of internet spaceships. This is a story land and a fantasy. We are intrepid pod pilots making our way in a hostile universe, this is our fictional existence. By killing off the endgame scenario, of cap ships and holding space, as an idea players desire to hold, you burst the bubble that suspends us in this world of imagination. A meta world derived from real life has intruded into our carefully constructed reality, and the bubble we live in may blip out of existence as a result. Our avatars become limited, crippled in thought and distant in our imagination. Once that bubble evaporates, EvE is a chat room that happens to have internet spaceships. People may stay for friends for a time, but the magic will be gone. This is not a situation that can be fixed with a petition at that point. This was not a victory for anyone. This was an atrocity. Great post. /signed
Cyrana Bergerac nicomedes inc.	Posted - 2008.09.30 22:56:00 - [45] Edited by: Cyrana Bergerac on 30/09/2008 22:59:38 The big mistakes in the NC's mindset - they think: 1. they have to defend something against BOB 2. they can win. It is unbelievable. We have this situation since years and there are still players existing in Eve, who think, they have to accept a black log in screen or have to accept a capital ship loss against BOB in a mass battle. No, you do not have to do this. The only thing, you have to do, is simply not showing up in such a mass battle. Do not listen to your FC, if he gives you an order to suicide your ship in lag. If you do it and lose like you always lose, it is your own fault. Plz do not complain then. You should have known better.
Ikira Onimareu Life Extermination	Posted - 2008.09.30 23:10:00 - [46] Originally by: Cyrana Bergerac Edited by: Cyrana Bergerac on 30/09/2008 22:59:38 The big mistakes in the NC's mindset - they think: 1. they have to defend something against BOB 2. they can win. It is unbelievable. We have this situation since years and there are still players existing in Eve, who think, they have to accept a black log in screen or have to accept a capital ship loss against BOB in a mass battle. No, you do not have to do this. The only thing, you have to do, is simply not showing up in such a mass battle. Do not listen to your FC, if he gives you an order to suicide your ship in lag. If you do it and lose like you always lose, it is your own fault. Plz do not complain then. You should have known better. This post is not about winning/losing. It's about how that black screen should not exist, and that lag should not be a factor in planning a fleet battle. Again if CCP didn't want massive fights all the damn pretty trailers they release wouldn't have em in it.
Aegis Osiris Gallente Demonic Retribution G00DFELLAS	Posted - 2008.10.01 00:37:00 - [47] Is every 'whiner' in this thread, the OP included, completely and utterly daft and unable to read?? Yes, the node crashed. Somewhere close to 1000 jumped in. We all know the node will crash. Thats expected, and the back and forth of "CCP, we pay, why haven't you fixed??" and "delicious tears are delicious, adapt or die!" gets us nowhere. But wait...what was that first part in the M-O battle reports?? They had 1140 in local and it was playable for 15 minutes!!... ...1140 in local and it was playable for 15 minutes!!... ...1140 in local and it was playable for 15 minutes!!... Three times repetition for full comprehension. This has NEVER happened before in EVE....ever! Playable lag with over 1000 in local?? If you'd posted that here just a year ago, people would be looking for the straightjackets and thorazine.. How can you complain? How can you say thats NOT progress? How can you say CCP aren't working on it? How can I ask so many questions in a single post? Ah, got carried away... It may have only lasted 15 minutes, but that many in local, with 2 seperate battles going, Titans, DD's, caps, sniper fleets, support, and zipping around the system, must have been glorious. As frustrating as what followed may have been, I'd be willing to bet that the pilots involved were all ecstatic (if busy) during those 15. I for one think CCP is doing a fair job on trying to make it work. ________________________________________________ I went to CAOD and all I got was this lousy brain tumor...
MadMerlin International House of PWNCakes	Posted - 2008.10.01 00:37:00 - [48] CCP did NOT force 800 people to enter a server they already knew couldn't handle it. The NC could very easily change tactics, say bypass that system, split into two seperate 400 man fleets and go reinforce two seperate systems of BoB's own, sending them on the back foot. A hundered other tactics could have made that incredible fleet you guys formed do far more than lemming to their death into BoB's fleet who'd already had system control. You guys need to totally stop, step back, and look around for a moment because the status-quo ain't working, obviously. Instead of beg CCP to fix something immediatley (Even the most powerful of computers using the most powerful of connections is bound to wither under the constant load of 800 people fighting, session changing, potentially TEN THOUSAND drones pathing through space... etc.) DO SOMETHING YOURSELF. Yes, its unfortunate that one side can exploit this already to their advantage, but you had a fleet, hell coulda had TWO fleets to do the same damn thing right back at them. Lick your wounds and get back on your feet, whipe those ****ing tears off your face and most of all: Adapt.
MadMerlin International House of PWNCakes	Posted - 2008.10.01 00:41:00 - [49] Originally by: Faife if it's impossible to defend, then why not go attack? You, ma'am, are a better stratagist than all of NC combined, apparently. Why is this such a hard consept to wrap around?
Lochmar Fiendhiem Caldari Quicksilver Industries and Painful Effects Inc.	Posted - 2008.10.01 00:41:00 - [50] Edited by: Lochmar Fiendhiem on 01/10/2008 00:43:06 Originally by: Moonlight Express Originally by: Taldeer uithwe very strange that only hostile forces get massacred facing lag or node crash. never heard of a bob fleet got destroyed due to that...strange.. Maybe it's because BoB does not run to the forums to whine every time they lose a fleet to lag like they did last week, but NC sure runs to the forums to tell people how uber they are when they turkey shoot BoB. Strange. lol yea when bob loses a fight the forums go quiet for a week while the rest of us laugh at them, and molle pops a blood vessle in his eye or something. edit for lolz: Originally by: Shardrael those of us keeping count find this a strange statistical anomaly as well. but it definetly couldnt be because bob had info on server mechanics before anyone else, cause that might be considered cheating and they probably dont do that... zing! Originally by: Halkin bob is dead, goons are great, cheese is cheesy, there we go no need for any more threads
Gonada Priory Of The Lemon	Posted - 2008.10.01 03:22:00 - [51] knowing BoB had 3oo at the gate. knowing you have round 600 pilots all about to jump into a system at once. and knowing about the lag generated by doing such an action, you still did it, realizing that BOB was allready in system and would only get getting initial ship info, whilst 600 or so people would have to load an entire system at once..... best bet would have been to fight another day, or maybe split up the 600 into 2-3 groups and ravage different areas to split bob forces up. alas, sounds like a whole buncha setting yourselves up for fail, IMHO Please, jump into traffic
Smokie McLottapot Caldari Keepers Of The Gate	Posted - 2008.10.01 04:08:00 - [52] Originally by: Ikira Onimareu Let's stay on topic, this is not about BOB or MM or NC or your mom. The op is stating how lag and node crashes become part of planning an attack. This should not be the case as real world problems should not affect EVE or we lose immersion. A convo on msn shouldn't effect things on the eve servers either.....Oh wait My Siggy :) Prove it wrong! BOD's Strategy to winning! Originally by: SirMolle Strategy
Shardrael Caldari Titan Industries Technology Team Shadow of xXDEATHXx	Posted - 2008.10.01 05:25:00 - [53] Originally by: Re Mi Originally by: Shardrael you know what the lag and node crash outright suck, there is no denying it. when it changes the outcome of a battle it is all the more bitter. however this stuff is not news, it has been happening for as long as I have been playing the game, your only useful option is to suck it up and plan for the next one, maybe your side will be able to log in faster next time? who knows but giving up because of shite servers as far as your enemy is concerned is the same thing as being defeated. all you can do is get back in the fight and keep fighting tell the servers catch fire. When you are defending your home and get set on a path, not to lose a battle, to LOSE YOUR SPACE because of faulty game mechanics when you have a capable and credible defense, that is a big problem. How do you defend against a force that by definition of its size leads to only two possible outcomes. 1.) You fill the server to capacity, in which case you are outgunned and die. 2.) You fill the server beyond capacity, in which case the node crashes and you die. Who wants to play this game? This process will be repeated until this space is taken over. The outcome is a foregone conclusion no matter what level of forces are brought to bear. This is how end game cap ship scenarios are played out these days. you are preaching to the choir I have been in an alliance that was destroyed by bob. I am simpling saying the only productive thing you can do is suck it up and keep showing up.
lceman Gallente Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.10.01 06:46:00 - [54] Quote: Memory is a complicated thing, a relative to truth, but not its twin. Barbara Kingsolver He who fears being conquered is sure of defeat. Napoleon I I think this these quote is quite accurate. Your failure this weekend was in large not by fault of node crash nor bob-ccp-dev-hax, And the way the bahavior of "command" in NC & allies keep insisting it was and their members bashing at either ccp or bob in honest gives no help, but to make themself look even more incompetent of either running a alliance or at tactic's. we can all go into speculation about it, but when it all comes down to it they are just people too, which chooses to put themself under pressure trying to make sure their members have fun in this game and they will not stop at anything for it, where farfetch explaination surfes and becomes the truth of the momemt to victimize themself to avoid acccepting failure or incompentence, or even avoid learning from mistakes, some people in life choose the victime role some choose not. Therefore i must tell all of NC & allies to be aware of following signs Recurring thoughts or nightmares about the event. Having trouble sleeping or changes in appetite. Experiencing anxiety and fear, especially when exposed to events or situations reminiscent of the trauma. Being on edge, being easily startled or becoming overly alert. Feeling depressed, sad and having low energy. Experiencing memory problems including difficulty in remembering aspects of the trauma. Feeling "scattered" and unable to focus on work or daily activities. Having difficulty making decisions. Feeling irritable, easily agitated, or angry and resentful. Feeling emotionally "numb", withdrawn, disconnected or different from others. Spontaneously crying, feeling a sense of despair and hopelessness. Feeling extremely protective of, or fearful for, the safety of loved ones. Not being able to face certain aspects of the trauma, and avoiding activities, places, or even people that remind you of the event If you have theese following signs please seek help you might be suffering from Trauma-Related Stress If what not is, what is ?.
MirrorGod Heretic Militia	Posted - 2008.10.01 07:17:00 - [55] I do. Factiion Warfare > your carebear endgame dreams. Low-sec is doing fine kthx Save Small Gang Warfare
zoolkhan Minmatar Mirkur Draug'Tyr Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.10.01 07:41:00 - [56] Edited by: zoolkhan on 01/10/2008 07:45:49 Edited by: zoolkhan on 01/10/2008 07:42:39 Originally by: Meat Bucket Edited by: Meat Bucket on 30/09/2008 21:31:14 Edited by: Meat Bucket on 30/09/2008 21:30:50 I'd like to welcome everyone in this thread that is complaining about lag to start their own company, create a big game on one sever and do it right. Everyone here seems to know all about everything that is being done wrong. Why not rather than ***ing and moaning about what is so wrong, why don't you go create a game that does it right and put CCP out of business. Oh wait. It's really ing hard, and there no damn way you could ever do it better. I'm guessing that's why you haven't done it yet. I have seen improvement in the efforts CCP have been making lately. While I share the frustration of the other posters in this thread I do realize the challenge of the problem and encourage progress. youre not rational. Were not just *ing and moaning, by god - after 5 years we deserve to moan and ***. I have IT network & creativity background back to the internet stoneage when there was only modem dialup into BBSs and datex-p nodes. Some other moaners may also know what they talk about. What i am moaning about is about the allocation of ressources and promotion of a gameplay that is not doable with the backend hardware set in place. CCP does a great job in most departments, but their datacenter is outsourced to the UK, they dont run the show. the decision which storage to be used is not transparent to us, perhaps not even to them. some of us, like myself for instance, work in that IT field and can make educated guesses how the technical side is realized, and even how it can be improved. But as long CCP makes a fortune and they expand like crazy, they wont ask and emply people doing that. Saying "oooh poor ccp" get bashed is irrational. THe connectivity issues are repeating, while other issues are being takled taht have far less impact on the game. Adding new features to make the press, instead fixing everlasting serious problems that make loyal customers grumpy is a sad business model. After 5 years of suffering, after 5 years of talking others into the game after investing 5 years of trust (they will fix it eventually) - i think i do deserve, at least a frigging response that tells me something plausible I as an IT-Storage & Network Professional can tell when i hear bullshit "code optimisation" aint gonna do it folks. This requires hardware optimisation This requires fast SANs or perhaps a different protocol over GBE. A frigging ESX box wont do the trick, and there are cluster-systems in teh wild that coudl dynamically assign ressources to where they are needed. It just requires re-investing some of the big money we are paying. ANd since the responsibility for teh datacenter is not with CCP - that is an issue. CCP doesnt want to take this business into their company - and the datacenter is not able to deliver. And the hunt for a datacenter which coudl do it is a long and difficult one. Also teh transtition and migration would be long and difficult and costly and disruptive perhaps... There is many many many potential and more true reasons that might apply - BUT CCP ISNT TALKING STRAIGHT. everytime the user complaind about lag - they reply next release will have optimized code. 80% of the users swallow that. 20% leave the game - 30% noobs join teh game percentage of people who believe it is unknown. but the business model works. long time customer loyalty is not priority and gets no reward. not weven a bumper sticker for your pc:-) recruiting -forum
Damir36 Gallente PPN United Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2008.10.01 08:14:00 - [57] To the Ops: really great Post!, just should not have taken this battle as an example to give al this ppl who shout "Whiner" a target :-) To the rest who just keep telling to quit whining or change tactics: This Post was not about a single fight but about the dream this game brought to some ppl. A fantasy of flying a spaceship through uncharted space for a generation grown up with Startrek and Starwars, with Elite and Wing Commander. What the op meant is (I think), that the Fantasy is destroyed by having to think about Metagaming, planing with lag and with other "Real-Live Issues" that should have nothing to do with a fantasy. And with every "Reality-Intrusion" into this Fantasy another small part of your motivation to play dies. After living in 0.0 Space for three years now I`ve seen a lot and I still log in because there is nothing compareable to EvE out there but it is not the experience it used to be. I still think CCP does a lot (and their best) to reduce Lag and improve Gameplay for a lot of very different types of Players. Better even then most other games out there. I think they too got caught by there dream of big Spaceshipfights and are now on a way where it is very difficult to change things. I agree that fights should be won by better Tactics, I agree that Lag favors first one than the other but even fights of 200 vs 200 are getting very laggy sometimes and thats frustrating and destroys the Illusion. I too have no solution but I think this is not solved by better servers but by changing gamemechanics and goals and so CCP should return to the drawingboard. There are a lot of Ideas floating around and maybe a combination of this could change the way this "EvE-Endgame" is today. Could even change that it attracts more of the Empire Careboars to this so called 0.0 Endgame Spelling and grammar are optional as english is not my native language :-) Grn¯e Damir Beware: German Link!:) Deutschprachige Piloten gesucht
Misanth RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE	Posted - 2008.10.01 09:04:00 - [58] This would be a no-issue if there was no need to defend. At this point the defenses are put up by those that want to build stuff, and thus they're not all that happy to pack up and attack, they want their shipyards (and possibly moons etc) to stay safe. As I see it, things were, in that respect, alot better before we had the sov mechanics. There was POS spamming and blobbing, yes, and outposts could be taken with quite meager efforts. The key here is that everything was alot more flexible. You put up 15 POS and expect to lose them, no need to defend it. Your station is lost and you take it back a little while later. There's no cynojammers, and you don't need sov to build stuff. Etc. The whole sov system is a mechanic that make it appealing for certain entities (the more industrial focused and less aggressive ones) to defend and hold space. That's what I see as the major flaw and something CCP has to work on. As for node crashes, blobs and big fleets.. the servers will always have a limit, I'm pretty impressed you guys had over 1k+ people in a system and managed to play for a while. You guys that feel CCP is cheating customers when they are talking about fleet fights.. I feel your sentiment, but it's not really reasonable to expect server performance to be good when you hit a certain amount of people. No matter what game, there's none that can do this. Not only hard- and software restrictions, the playerbase in this game is also spread out over the whole world, there's bound to be speed limits (bumps) here as well. There's an awsome thread posted in the general section that explains how it comes the server is performing better in smaller scale environment and worse in fleet fights, I'll try dig it up for you.
Scouteye Locasta Tactical	Posted - 2008.10.01 09:16:00 - [59] Look at it like this. Recruiters out there think about the questions you get asked the most. I bet "do you do fleet/blob fights much?" is high on the list of question asked. I've been recruiting 3 years, every person i have said "yes we do a lot of fleet/blob ops" to they lose intrested. They lose intrest as they know the servers cant handle it and its not going to be fun. We're talking hundreads of people saying "no, i dont like that". The main advertising focus of this game cant not be achived and the majority of the players dont even want to be involved in achiving it because they know its not going to be fun. Thats a majoy issue surely? For those saying stop whining, we PAY to play this game, and as paying customers we are allowed and SHOULD complain as much as possible until CCP listens and throws everything that have at fixing the issues we as paying customers want fixed. That means forgeting expansions and walking in stations and spending the developement cash on new staff and hardware to fix the node/lag issues to enable the advertised dream. But they wont, as the majority of the eve players are no longer intrested as we are in end-game game play, taking and holding space. Its sad that the very thing the game is advertised to do is the thing the players want to do the least because of the performance issues. Theres been progress but thats not going to fix the fact that when M-O was going on, the other 30k of players in empire didnt care as they are having more fun, in their eyes, having never even tried 0.0, for good reason. They probably wouldnt have fun for more than 15 mins.
Lord WarATron Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.10.01 09:28:00 - [60] Originally by: Re Mi Consider this, how many alliances have lost their space in the past 3 months? How many people will look at this rcent NC coalition defeat and say that holding space in EvE is impossible or pointless. You do not get Max. Do i have to leak my own posts to give you guys a clue? -- Billion Isk Mission
Maximillian Bayonette White Lion Manufacture and Salvage	Posted - 2008.10.01 10:12:00 - [61] Originally by: Gumpy Nighthawk Serious if your servers can't handle big fleet battles, then don't advertise with epic fleet battles. Seriously, where have CCP ever said that 'big' fleet battles equal 1000 people all fighting on the same grid? Look at any other game on the market. A 50v50 battle could be cathegorised as 'epic'. A 100v100 battle is almost unheard of. More than that and we're already in epic territory. We have become so frigging spoiled in this game. Every time CCP increases the server power we just bring more people to the fights and then complain about the game being unplayable. What we're asking from CCP is impossible with today's technology. They can't just crap super computers to accomodate a bunch of people who's only measure of tactics is "MOAR DOTS". Stop frigging bringing 600 people in a gang. That's not required for it to be an 'epic' battle. Hell, I had an 'epic' battle last week. There where 8 of us and 25 of them. Fight took over an hour. Was frigging epic in my book. Great fun too, and no lag whatsoever. In short, stop whining you frigging morons! CCP aren't magicians. They can't do stuff that technology doesn't allow for. They can advertise epic battles all they want. There are epic battles in Eve. You just have to alter your own perspective of what 'epic' and 'big' battles are.
End Yourself Core Domination Big Bang Quantum	Posted - 2008.10.01 10:43:00 - [62] Originally by: Lord WarATron Originally by: Re Mi Consider this, how many alliances have lost their space in the past 3 months? How many people will look at this rcent NC coalition defeat and say that holding space in EvE is impossible or pointless. You do not get Max. Do i have to leak my own posts to give you guys a clue? This, this and this! Lag can be really annoying at times, to a point where the game becomes unplayable. But what is a dozen times worse is the amount of idiots only living to grind isk. And guess what? These are exactly the same lemmings who can only fight when local grows 4 digit and therefore the main cause of lag. --- Fighting for peace is like screwing for virginity.
PsychoBones II R.E.C.O.N.	Posted - 2008.10.01 10:50:00 - [63] Originally by: Re Mi EvE is a chat room that happens to have internet spaceships. People may stay for friends for a time, but the magic will be gone. Oh hey welcome to my world. Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Maximillian Bayonette White Lion Manufacture and Salvage	Posted - 2008.10.01 11:09:00 - [64] Originally by: Flash Ahhhahhhhh The OP was spot on in my opinion, the matter is not whether the NC are right or whether GBC are right ... it is not even about whether CCP are doing their best, it is simply about getting what you pay for ... and that SHOULD be what is advertised. That is exactly what's advertised. Big fights. Big meaning bigger than any other game out there. We have that. Yet we complain. Originally by: Flash Ahhhahhhhh As has been stated many times over, the node could handle the load initially and I am sure had that situation continued CCP would of gotten a well deserved pat on the back "The node withstood 1100 people in system ... Fantastic" (probably followed by "lets bring more next time") ... so a Titan is into Armour (sorry for correct spelling) ... node goes down, game gets rolled back, Titan is no longer into armour ... battle attempts to recommence, node goes down ... rinse and repeat, when finally node manages to accept connections, one side appears to be able to get their pilots online and active whereas one side simply cannot, only managing to get pilots online to replace their ganked allies. That's not exactly what happened though. As you said, this thread shouldn't be about M-0, but as you brought it up: Both sides managed to get a fraction of their people online. The difference was that one side was organized and had good FCs. The other side didn't. Originally by: Flash Ahhhahhhhh Some people are suggesting that seeing that the system was already full, the defenders should of simply written off that system ... total unprecedented after-the-fact tosh ... no coalition in the history of the game has ever done that and never will. You are correct that noone has done that. Perhaps they should, though, all things concidered. It was hardly a surprise to anyone that the node would crash. The decision to still go ahead and jump in looks more like a case of tossing a coin. The problem is the over reliance on blobs. Originally by: Flash Ahhhahhhhh So turning our attention to CCP ... what exactly are people expecting from them? because I think everyone would agree that they worked wonders simply having a server which could withstand the initial load ... I think the answer has to be ... either radically adjust the game mechanics to prevent the need for such huge blobs or adjust the game mechanics to prevent the need for such huge blobs ... but whichever of these two choices ... they must stop enticing people into the game by advertising its ability to withstand such battles. There already is no need for such huge blobs. Blobs like that serve only one purpose: safety in numbers. CCP can't change human nature. Originally by: Flash Ahhhahhhhh They also need to lose all association with in-game alliances, because whilstever such associations exist, there will be cries of impartial actions. Do you still belive that CCP have connections with BoB? If so, report it to internal affairs or quit the game.
Smokie McLottapot Caldari Keepers Of The Gate	Posted - 2008.10.01 15:04:00 - [65] Originally by: Maximillian Bayonette Originally by: Flash Ahhhahhhhh The OP was spot on in my opinion, the matter is not whether the NC are right or whether GBC are right ... it is not even about whether CCP are doing their best, it is simply about getting what you pay for ... and that SHOULD be what is advertised. That is exactly what's advertised. Big fights. Big meaning bigger than any other game out there. We have that. Yet we complain. Originally by: Flash Ahhhahhhhh As has been stated many times over, the node could handle the load initially and I am sure had that situation continued CCP would of gotten a well deserved pat on the back "The node withstood 1100 people in system ... Fantastic" (probably followed by "lets bring more next time") ... so a Titan is into Armour (sorry for correct spelling) ... node goes down, game gets rolled back, Titan is no longer into armour ... battle attempts to recommence, node goes down ... rinse and repeat, when finally node manages to accept connections, one side appears to be able to get their pilots online and active whereas one side simply cannot, only managing to get pilots online to replace their ganked allies. That's not exactly what happened though. As you said, this thread shouldn't be about M-0, but as you brought it up: Both sides managed to get a fraction of their people online. The difference was that one side was organized and had good FCs. The other side didn't. Originally by: Flash Ahhhahhhhh Some people are suggesting that seeing that the system was already full, the defenders should of simply written off that system ... total unprecedented after-the-fact tosh ... no coalition in the history of the game has ever done that and never will. You are correct that noone has done that. Perhaps they should, though, all things concidered. It was hardly a surprise to anyone that the node would crash. The decision to still go ahead and jump in looks more like a case of tossing a coin. The problem is the over reliance on blobs. Originally by: Flash Ahhhahhhhh So turning our attention to CCP ... what exactly are people expecting from them? because I think everyone would agree that they worked wonders simply having a server which could withstand the initial load ... I think the answer has to be ... either radically adjust the game mechanics to prevent the need for such huge blobs or adjust the game mechanics to prevent the need for such huge blobs ... but whichever of these two choices ... they must stop enticing people into the game by advertising its ability to withstand such battles. There already is no need for such huge blobs. Blobs like that serve only one purpose: safety in numbers. CCP can't change human nature. Originally by: Flash Ahhhahhhhh They also need to lose all association with in-game alliances, because whilstever such associations exist, there will be cries of impartial actions. Do you still belive that CCP have connections with BoB? If so, report it to internal affairs or quit the game. Just as in our convo on tq, you make up what you want to belive even after having the proof being rammed down your throat, noone ever said "bob cheated in m-o" if I ever said those words, quote me please. NEVER SAID Make up whatever you want, that doesn't make you right or make the facts untrue. My Siggy :) Prove it wrong! BOD's Strategy to winning! Originally by: SirMolle Strategy
McKinlay KIA Corp KIA Alliance	Posted - 2008.10.01 15:06:00 - [66] This is a good discussion and although this has been sparked by recent events, this doesn't really belong in CAOD. Putting it here opens it up to the flamemonkeys from both sides. So what does it come down to? Alarm clock ops where one side moves 400 into a system and the defenders can no long jump in a similar size defensive force to engage? Both sides sitting on the gate, one in each system, afraid to jump and engage due to lag? A stalemate. Splitting forces to hit multiple targets, attack and defend? Guerilla tactics, such as smaller polyhac hit and run gangs, coming in and out of range, running away when shot, dropping sentries etc? Who knows who much longer that will last if the nerf comes, but I guess there will always to some kind of tactic with no really effective counter to be used. Unfortunatly it's a reality of EvE, which is meant to be an escape from reality that as it is today tactics must be defined by, or at least sit within these system restraints.
Maximillian Bayonette White Lion Manufacture and Salvage	Posted - 2008.10.01 15:07:00 - [67] Originally by: Smokie McLottapot Just as in our convo on tq, you make up what you want to belive even after having the proof being rammed down your throat, noone ever said "bob cheated in m-o" if I ever said those words, quote me please. NEVER SAID Make up whatever you want, that doesn't make you right or make the facts untrue. You're just dumb beyond believe. Anyone reading the tripe you write here understands that you're trying to suggest that BoB where cheating in M-0. Every single one. Now, when you're called on it, you back-track like the female reproductive organ you are and start claiming you where only talking about T20 the whole time. You know what? You weren't, and you frigging know it. Now stfu until you can prove that BoB cheated in M-0 as was your accusation the whole time. Also, post with your main.
Sophie Rebecca British Aerospace Inc	Posted - 2008.10.01 15:19:00 - [68] Originally by: Maximillian Bayonette Originally by: Smokie McLottapot Just as in our convo on tq, you make up what you want to belive even after having the proof being rammed down your throat, noone ever said "bob cheated in m-o" if I ever said those words, quote me please. NEVER SAID Make up whatever you want, that doesn't make you right or make the facts untrue. You're just dumb beyond believe. Anyone reading the tripe you write here understands that you're trying to suggest that BoB where cheating in M-0. Every single one. Now, when you're called on it, you back-track like the female reproductive organ you are and start claiming you where only talking about T20 the whole time. You know what? You weren't, and you frigging know it. Now stfu until you can prove that BoB cheated in M-0 as was your accusation the whole time. Also, post with your main. Seeing this argument rage from thread to thread I can't help think of the Chicken Man fight scene from Family Guy. Thanks, its makeing my chuckkle at work.
Colonel Xaven Decadence. RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.10.01 15:23:00 - [69] Originally by: Re Mi Originally by: ElrondMD Your just going to get trolled by whichever entity in eve most recently benefited from a lag induced turkey shoot. My post is too meta. The more they troll me, the more power I receive. Omg, now you're so damn powerful. Look at all the trollposts. They didn't get it. Proud member of RZR - Decadence.
Smokie McLottapot Caldari Keepers Of The Gate	Posted - 2008.10.01 15:25:00 - [70] Originally by: Maximillian Bayonette Originally by: Smokie McLottapot Just as in our convo on tq, you make up what you want to belive even after having the proof being rammed down your throat, noone ever said "bob cheated in m-o" if I ever said those words, quote me please. NEVER SAID Make up whatever you want, that doesn't make you right or make the facts untrue. You're just dumb beyond believe. Anyone reading the tripe you write here understands that you're trying to suggest that BoB where cheating in M-0. Every single one. Now, when you're called on it, you back-track like the female reproductive organ you are and start claiming you where only talking about T20 the whole time. You know what? You weren't, and you frigging know it. Now stfu until you can prove that BoB cheated in M-0 as was your accusation the whole time. Also, post with your main. Once again since you emo-rage-quit our tq convo Noone has said bob as a whole did anything wrong, if fact the only person that said anything about bob as a whole was you. What was said was, (and I'm still sticking by this) is: Knowing the history of bob MEMBERS, this all seems a bit fishy. Now have your mom bring you some cookies so you'll feel better and stop emo'ing, others of us that don't live in a basement have to go to work. My Siggy :) Prove it wrong! BOD's Strategy to winning! Originally by: SirMolle Strategy
David Goodwill The Knights Templar	Posted - 2008.10.01 15:50:00 - [71] unfortunatly Waratron is right (git!) If you have 400 in a system, so what. Get it back tomorrow. If you gather 700 ships in a defence force, turn it into an attack force. Go and hit their home systems in a day trip. With that many ships, you can split the force in 2, and hit 2 systems at the same time. You want to get at BoB? Hit them where it hurts, in their own home systems, with their own moons and stations. Make them jump into you to defend. Give the Max back to them ffs. You can always get your own systems back in a few weeks when you force BoB to come back and defend. Unfortunatly, BoB seems to have come up with a pretty good plan. Over the last year or so, 0.0 is pretty much settled. Smaller entities are not able to get a foothold in space for any amount of time. What this will do, even if only for a month or two, will encourage those entities to come try out some of this newly conquored space. Just a tip though, never ever pay rent. If you see something you want, take it. I doubt BoB will care if you retake some of the stations they hold in PB or Fade etc, as long as you leave their moons alone.
Aristrat Amarr SRBI Circle-Of-Two	Posted - 2008.10.01 15:56:00 - [72] I was thinking about this idea much more before M-O happened, and the main reason is I don't like way PVP is evolving. You can't blame people for blobing because that's only natural behavior and roots are deeply nested in human psychology. Take the real life experience and you will see that blobing is one of the basic principles of warfare. Modern warfare is slightly different, but even in 21st century the more is the merrier! IMHO only CCP has responsibility because of not delivering what they are promoting and what they should. Investment in new hardware is one side of the story and I will not talk about that...it's their thing how they will treat their customers, and based on that, if they will keep players or loss them. To make long story short, I want to say that CURRENT GAME MECHANIC encouraging people to use blob tactics. Even worse, atm that is only acceptable way doing PVP in smaller gangs, medium sized fleets and huge fleet engagements! If you want to win (or even take the fight) you have to bring equal or higher numbers than your enemy. This is a fact, and result is blob<BLob<BLOB. Today I posted on forum my humble idea (which is quite good if you ask me ) about changing current game mechanic into something different that would discourage blob tactic and bring whole new set of aspects and qualities into dieing PVP experience... You can find it here http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=886966 Flame on if you must, but constructive comments and sugestions are more welcome...for the greater good of course

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