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Intense Thinker Minmatar	Posted - 2008.09.30 21:43:00 - [1] IÆm against the $85,000,000,000.00 bailout of AIG. Instead, IÆm in favor of giving $85,000,000,000 to America in a We Deserve It Dividend. To make the math simple, letÆs assume there are 200,000,000 bonafide U.S. Citizens 18+. Our population is about 301,000,000 +/- counting every man, woman and child. So 200,000,000 might be a fair stab at adults 18 and up.. So divide 200 million adults 18+ into $85 billon that equals $425,000.00. My plan is to give $425,000 to every person 18+ as a We Deserve It Dividend. Of course, it would NOT be tax free. So letÆs assume a tax rate of 30%. Every individual 18+ has to pay $127,500.00 in taxes. That sends $25,500,000,000 right back to Uncle Sam. But it means that every adult 18+ has $297,500.00 in their pocket. A husband and wife has $595,000.00. What would you do with $297,500.00 to $595,000.00 in your family? Pay off your mortgage û housing crisis solved. Repay college loans û what a great boost to new grads Put away money for college û itÆll be there Save in a bank û create money to loan to entrepreneurs. Buy a new car û create jobs Invest in the market û capital drives growth Pay for your parentÆs medical insurance û health care improves Enable Deadbeat Dads to come clean û or else Remember this is for every adult U S Citizen 18+ including the folks who lost their jobs at Lehman Brothers and every other company that is cutting back. And of course, for those serving in our Armed Forces. If weÆre going to re-distribute wealth letÆs really do it...instead of trickling out a puny $1000.00 ( ôvote buyö ) economic incentive that is being proposed by one of our candidates for President. If weÆre going to do an $85 billion bailout, letÆs bail out every adult U S Citizen 18+! As for AIG û liquidate it. Sell off its parts. Let American General go back to being American General. Sell off the real estate. Let the private sector bargain hunters cut it up and clean it up. HereÆs my rationale. We deserve it and AIG doesnÆt. Sure itÆs a crazy idea that can ônever work.ö But can you imagine the Coast-To-Coast Block Party! How do you spell Economic Boom? I trust my fellow adult Americans to know how to use the $85 Billion We Deserve It Dividend more than I do the geniuses at AIG or in Washington DC . And remember, The Birk plan only really costs $59.5 Billion because $25.5 Billion is returned instantly in taxes to Uncle Sam. Ahhh...I feel so much better getting that off my chest. Birk T. J. Birkenmeier, A Creative Guy & Citizen of the Republic --------------------- It's me! Your lovable forum warrior!!!
Micheal Dietrich Caldari Terradyne Networks	Posted - 2008.09.30 21:45:00 - [2] STOP WITH THE ECONOMY THREADS ALREADY
DubanFP Caldari Kylia Inc.	Posted - 2008.09.30 22:06:00 - [3] Edited by: DubanFP on 30/09/2008 22:07:35 Uhh your plan adds a few zeros. $85 billion is $425 a piece not $425 thousand. I can only assume you did your math in thousands but don't even know the 1 * 1000/1 * 1000 cancels out. Hence $425 not $425k. You don't even know how to do simple math and here you are giving economic advice... Don't, please. _______________ "Cheap" and "Lame" are words created by people who refuse to admit they have been completely and utterly outclassed.
Jacob Mei	Posted - 2008.09.30 22:14:00 - [4] My answer to solving the problem: Put a tactical Nuclear device under wallstreet as incentive for the brokers NOT to screw up. -------------------------------- To borrow a phrase: Players who post are like stars, there are bright ones and those who are dim.
Illwill Bill Minmatar Scandinavian Carebears AB	Posted - 2008.09.30 22:16:00 - [5] The big question is: Once the banks leave the market, can we have their stuff?
Atomos Darksun Infortunatus Eventus Obsidian Empire	Posted - 2008.09.30 22:19:00 - [6] Originally by: DubanFP Edited by: DubanFP on 30/09/2008 22:07:35 Uhh your plan adds a few zeros. $85 billion is $425 a piece not $425 thousand. I can only assume you did your math in thousands but don't even know the 1 * 1000/1 * 1000 cancels out. Hence $425 not $425k. You don't even know how to do simple math and here you are giving economic advice... Don't, please. Originally by: Amoxin My vent is talking to me in a devil voice... Atomos' Guide to Forum Flaming
Feilamya Minmatar 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2008.09.30 22:29:00 - [7] Originally by: Illwill Bill The big question is: Once the banks leave the market, can we have their stuff? I think that's the point of the thread, amirite?
Epegi Givo Amarr 181st Legion	Posted - 2008.09.30 22:31:00 - [8] United States Population Count ------------------------------------- Total tractor beam overhaul/engine strength
goodby4u Valor Inc.	Posted - 2008.09.30 22:41:00 - [9] Actually its not 85 billion, the final tally is several hundred billion but ill digress. Flooding the market with 100billion dollars to make everybody"rich"would be totally useless, because as the market gets full of money the prices of items go up and thus everybody that receives the said money wouldnt be able to enjoy it that much.... On face value awesome idea, but horrible idea in practice. Also I dont support the bailout plan either.
Krychton Vorace. Exalted.	Posted - 2008.09.30 22:45:00 - [10] Watching that wall street bail out bill get put down was beautiful. Especially watching 133 Republicans running scared. After 8 years of Bush rule the balance of power shifted back in the hands of American's, where it belongs. \|Vorace.Ö Website\|

MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2008.09.30 22:47:00 - [11] oops? hehehe still awesome idea :P
goodby4u Valor Inc.	Posted - 2008.09.30 23:04:00 - [12] Edited by: goodby4u on 30/09/2008 23:06:38 Originally by: Krychton Watching that wall street bail out bill get put down was beautiful. Especially watching 133 Republicans running scared. After 8 years of Bush rule the balance of power shifted back in the hands of American's, where it belongs. Hate to break it to ya but the left wanted to push this through aswell, this isnt a partison issue. Its the same deal on alot of issues, neither side is right so much as their wrong in their own way.... Both parties are sending us to hell, one in a train, one in a plane. But I do agree, its nice to see that the politicians are afraid of the general public, because thats the way its suppose to be.
Krychton Vorace. Exalted.	Posted - 2008.09.30 23:12:00 - [13] Edited by: Krychton on 30/09/2008 23:12:12 Originally by: goodby4u Edited by: goodby4u on 30/09/2008 23:06:38 Originally by: Krychton Watching that wall street bail out bill get put down was beautiful. Especially watching 133 Republicans running scared. After 8 years of Bush rule the balance of power shifted back in the hands of American's, where it belongs. Hate to break it to ya but the left wanted to push this through aswell, this isnt a partison issue. Its the same deal on alot of issues, neither side is right so much as their wrong in their own way.... Both parties are sending us to hell, one in a train, one in a plane. But I do agree, its nice to see that the politicians are afraid of the general public, because thats the way its suppose to be. Well of course, both sides have a hand in bringing us here. I think at this point every American knows that things are going to get a lot worse before it gets better. The bill was simply defeated because Wall Street wanted a bail out at the expense of Main Street. That bill would have done nothing for the American economy. On top of that, Republicans are getting the clear message that if you side with Bush don't expect re-election. \|Vorace.Ö Website\|
goodby4u Valor Inc.	Posted - 2008.09.30 23:16:00 - [14] Originally by: Krychton Edited by: Krychton on 30/09/2008 23:12:12 Originally by: goodby4u Edited by: goodby4u on 30/09/2008 23:06:38 Originally by: Krychton Watching that wall street bail out bill get put down was beautiful. Especially watching 133 Republicans running scared. After 8 years of Bush rule the balance of power shifted back in the hands of American's, where it belongs. Hate to break it to ya but the left wanted to push this through aswell, this isnt a partison issue. Its the same deal on alot of issues, neither side is right so much as their wrong in their own way.... Both parties are sending us to hell, one in a train, one in a plane. But I do agree, its nice to see that the politicians are afraid of the general public, because thats the way its suppose to be. Well of course, both sides have a hand in bringing us here. I think at this point every American knows that things are going to get a lot worse before it gets better. The bill was simply defeated because Wall Street wanted a bail out at the expense of Main Street. That bill would have done nothing for the American economy. On top of that, Republicans are getting the clear message that if you side with Bush don't expect re-election. Indeed, btw I love that saying(ive heard it about 4 times today). "Wallstreet at the expense of mainstreet".
Krychton Vorace. Exalted.	Posted - 2008.09.30 23:17:00 - [15] Yeah I know, I've been hearing it all week. LOL \|Vorace.Ö Website\|
Irish Whiskey Caldari The Black Fleet The Black Alliance	Posted - 2008.09.30 23:17:00 - [16] Edited by: Irish Whiskey on 30/09/2008 23:18:01 Legalize and tax *********. Tighten up auditing of business tax write offs. edit: ok legalize and tax the sticky green stuff
Sharupak Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2008.09.30 23:41:00 - [17] Best plan for fixing American economy Get rid of it! _______________________________________________ RuntimeError: ChainEvent is blocking by design, but you're block trapped. You have'll have to find some alternative means to do Your Thing, dude.
xVALERIAx Caldari	Posted - 2008.10.01 00:46:00 - [18] stop being greedy, that might work.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.10.01 02:18:00 - [19] Return of the gold standard ftw. That's seriously the only hope. _ SHOPS \|\| Mission rewards revamp \|\| better nanofix
EnslaverOfMinmatar Yarsk Hunters DeaDSpace Coalition	Posted - 2008.10.01 02:49:00 - [20] print more dollers!!

HankMurphy Minmatar Pelennor Enterprises	Posted - 2008.10.01 03:43:00 - [21] Correct answer: nothing. It will fix itself. Things cannot go up without eventually coming down. People doing shit they shouldn't be and crossing the line from investing to flat out gambling? (or just making **** poor business decisions?) They will get what they deserve. Just like a strung out gambling addict in Vegas that doesn't know when to quit while he is ahead, they get what they have coming. Ok ok, quit twisting my arm. I suppose we can try legalizing 'it' and taxing. ------------------------------ everybody be cool this is a threadjack! just lay face down on the ground and no one will get hurt!
Intense Thinker Minmatar	Posted - 2008.10.01 04:00:00 - [22] Note, I didn't come up with this I just posted it In truth I think it's a terrible idea Though I would be curious to taste my first $50,000 Milky Way --------------------- It's me! Your lovable forum warrior!!!
Wendat Huron Stellar Solutions	Posted - 2008.10.01 04:53:00 - [23] Socialism. These forums are FUBAR, upgrade this decade!
goodby4u Valor Inc.	Posted - 2008.10.01 05:00:00 - [24] Originally by: Wendat Huron Socialism sucks. Fixed.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.10.01 05:11:00 - [25] Originally by: Wendat Huron Socialism. People often confuse the meanings of democracy, representative democracy, capitalism, communism and socialism. USA for instance is a representative democracy (i.e. NOT a true democracy) with capitalist economy and a partially socialist social security system. China on the other hand is a communist country with mostly capitalist economy nowadays (used to be socialist) and a fully socialist social security system. What you REALLY want out of the perfect country is true democracy (i.e. every single person has a say in each legislative decision) with a socialist economy (government-controlled, but the government would be all the people) and a completely capitalist social security system (each man on its own, no handouts, you reap what you sow, no more, no less). _ SHOPS \|\| Mission rewards revamp \|\| better nanofix
Marie Duvolle United Sentients	Posted - 2008.10.01 05:18:00 - [26] People wanting 7 cars, castle like houses, bling bling bling, a bigger car than the neighbour every year, people thinking that bigger is better and acting on it. People consuming like madmen and spending cash on trivial crap. Governement spending idiot amounts of cash on wars but not on their own citizens. A whole country still living in the past thinking they're "the man" and not realizing they're falling further and further behind. People somehow thinking that credits cards are good thing and if you don't have one you're not with the in crowd. Said people somehow thinking that it's ok to pay for stuff you don't really need with money you don't really have. People who think it's ok to risk money in business as long as it's not their own money and/or they won't be held personaly responsible. I think this is a nice summing up of things that need changing, simply pumping cash into the economy is a dumb idea for the reasons posted above. Don't stir the hornet's nest
goodby4u Valor Inc.	Posted - 2008.10.01 05:38:00 - [27] Originally by: Marie Duvolle Edited by: Marie Duvolle on 01/10/2008 05:24:33 People somehow thinking that credits cards are good thing and if you don't have one you're not with the in crowd. I have a credit card I use for a couple of things... Such as. Eve Gas Internet stuffs Cheap stuff which offer great advantages to using a credit card. Why? Well using a credit card and paying off any debt you have asap is one of the ways to get good credit, personally ive never used the credit card on anything big(hopefully never will)that im incapable of paying, because getting stuck with paying just interest freaking sucks.
Marie Duvolle United Sentients	Posted - 2008.10.01 05:45:00 - [28] Dunno how it is over there but here in Holland you don't get interest on a Visa account, you actually have to PAY for the Visa card in the first place and and the interest on debt is amazing. I don't have a creditcard, I get by just fine using my normal plastic. Don't stir the hornet's nest
goodby4u Valor Inc.	Posted - 2008.10.01 05:50:00 - [29] Originally by: Marie Duvolle Dunno how it is over there but here in Holland you don't get interest on a Visa account, you actually have to PAY for the Visa card in the first place and and the interest on debt is amazing. I don't have a creditcard, I get by just fine using my normal plastic. Here credit cards come in the mail, but usually the way it works is they give you a set number(lets say 1000 dollars)that you can go up to and if you pass that you get HUGE penalties for doing so, and whatever money you build up you get interest on(interest ranges between 25% in the crazy and about 5% depending on age/credit history etc). And if you pay only interest you do just that, pay only interest and you have 0 going into paying the credit card off.... And by interest I mean you paying them for their"loan"to you.
Newbear	Posted - 2008.10.01 05:55:00 - [30] Ban naked short selling and nano. Click here for my High Security POS Service

Marie Duvolle United Sentients	Posted - 2008.10.01 06:05:00 - [31] So you keep paying for money you didn't own, every month, till all eternity. Sounds like a solid plan... How can people keep justifying the use of creditcards to themselves? Does it not occur that nothing you get is free and if someone offers you something he's probably trying to rob you blind? Using a CC is like selling your soul to the devil; you get a short term cash increase and you'll pay for that the rest of your existance. Don't stir the hornet's nest
YouGotRipped Ewigkeit	Posted - 2008.10.01 06:17:00 - [32] Edited by: YouGotRipped on 01/10/2008 06:23:38 Originally by: Akita T What you REALLY want out of the perfect country is true democracy (i.e. every single person has a say in each legislative decision) with a socialist economy (government-controlled, but the government would be all the people) and a completely capitalist social security system (each man on its own, no handouts, you reap what you sow, no more, no less). hahah Are you using your ESP / empathic abilities again Akita?
goodby4u Valor Inc.	Posted - 2008.10.01 06:31:00 - [33] Originally by: Marie Duvolle So you keep paying for money you didn't own, every month, till all eternity. Sounds like a solid plan... How can people keep justifying the use of creditcards to themselves? Does it not occur that nothing you get is free and if someone offers you something he's probably trying to rob you blind? Using a CC is like selling your soul to the devil; you get a short term cash increase and you'll pay for that the rest of your existance. Because some people seem to actually believe that the credit card creates"free money"and the hell with debts because he/she really need to show his neighbor a thing or two about lawnchairs NOW not later. Dont get me wrong, if you pay off the interest and debt within a couple of payments its fine, because that adds to your credit rating(a rating that banks look at when giving you loans/when you buy estate)but if your just paying interest you are setting sail for fail.
Mankirks Wife	Posted - 2008.10.01 06:42:00 - [34] I'm kind of ambivalent about the whole issue. On one hand, I know a lot of (more or less normal) people who are suffering right now because of the current crisis and one guy who would be able to refinance his sub-prime, interest-only, upside-down mortgage if and when the bailout passes. On the other hand, I pulled all my money out of the markets and paid all my own debt 18 months ago when all these sub-prime mortgages started going into default, and the worse things get, the more I stand to personally profit when the markets do eventually turn around, so long as inflation doesn't go crazy and start significantly eroding my savings. ---
Prof Patpending Bodgit and Scarper Industrial	Posted - 2008.10.01 07:28:00 - [35] I say we take off and nuke it from orbit, its the only way to be sure.
Corwain Gallente DIE WITH HONOUR	Posted - 2008.10.01 15:00:00 - [36] Originally by: Marie Duvolle Dunno how it is over there but here in Holland you don't get interest on a Visa account, you actually have to PAY for the Visa card in the first place and and the interest on debt is amazing. I don't have a creditcard, I get by just fine using my normal plastic. Come on over here to the states...good luck buying ANYTHING more expensive than a computer without good credit. Want to rent or buy an apartment or house? Have the entire amount in cash? TOO BAD they check your credit score, see you have no credit, and refuse your application. Quite simply over here you're forced to back every substantial purchase with plastic. Doubly so if they put you on a payment plan. -- Distortion\| Distortion 2 Preview
goodby4u Valor Inc.	Posted - 2008.10.01 15:03:00 - [37] Originally by: Corwain Originally by: Marie Duvolle Dunno how it is over there but here in Holland you don't get interest on a Visa account, you actually have to PAY for the Visa card in the first place and and the interest on debt is amazing. I don't have a creditcard, I get by just fine using my normal plastic. Come on over here to the states...good luck buying ANYTHING more expensive than a computer without good credit. Want to rent or buy an apartment or house? Have the entire amount in cash? TOO BAD they check your credit score, see you have no credit, and refuse your application. Quite simply over here you're forced to back every substantial purchase with plastic. Doubly so if they put you on a payment plan. Thats why im upping my credit score but will pay for that type of stuff with cash, you could easily get an apartment with paper if your credit score is decent.
Corwain Gallente DIE WITH HONOUR	Posted - 2008.10.01 15:09:00 - [38] Originally by: goodby4u Thats why im upping my credit score but will pay for that type of stuff with cash, you could easily get an apartment with paper if your credit score is decent. Yup, that's indeed the way to do it, but it's a slippery slope. As Marie is trying to state it's much easier to never have a credit card to tempt you in the first place. The entire buisiness plan over here is to force you to have a card that you're "supposed" to use a bit and pay off every month to build good credit, but as soon as you miss a month, or put a bit on the card to pay off "month after next" you're screwed and the credit company's got you by the balls paying off interest indefinatly and never catching up. And you have to use your credit to build it, backing cash purchases with credit doesn't build your credit. Having credit doesn't build your credit. Your credit is built by using your credit, then paying it off with cash. So it's almost the same thing in theory as backing cash with credit, but when you're backing credit with cash it's easy to forget a payment and get screwed. -- Distortion\| Distortion 2 Preview
Micheal Dietrich Caldari Terradyne Networks	Posted - 2008.10.01 15:12:00 - [39] Originally by: goodby4u Originally by: Corwain Originally by: Marie Duvolle Dunno how it is over there but here in Holland you don't get interest on a Visa account, you actually have to PAY for the Visa card in the first place and and the interest on debt is amazing. I don't have a creditcard, I get by just fine using my normal plastic. Come on over here to the states...good luck buying ANYTHING more expensive than a computer without good credit. Want to rent or buy an apartment or house? Have the entire amount in cash? TOO BAD they check your credit score, see you have no credit, and refuse your application. Quite simply over here you're forced to back every substantial purchase with plastic. Doubly so if they put you on a payment plan. Thats why im upping my credit score but will pay for that type of stuff with cash, you could easily get an apartment with paper if your credit score is decent. Getting apartments is easy. When they check your credit history what they are looking for are bad/late payments in the rent area, the rest they can give a flying **** about.
Corwain Gallente DIE WITH HONOUR	Posted - 2008.10.01 15:19:00 - [40] Originally by: Micheal Dietrich Getting apartments is easy. When they check your credit history what they are looking for are bad/late payments in the rent area, the rest they can give a flying **** about. Bull. I needed a cosigner for my 3nd apartment despite having perfect record at my second apartment and having paid my 1st apartment in full at the start of each semester. (2 semesters total) And let me tell you, it sucks when you're 22 and having to talk your parents into cosigning for a damn apartment. I got my 1st real credit card (as opposed to the debit/Visa check card I've had since 16ish) and line of credit this year, the only other credit I had was student loans still being paid by the gov't as I'm still in school. Thus I had practically no credit and thus the need for a cosigner. -- Distortion\| Distortion 2 Preview

goodby4u Valor Inc.	Posted - 2008.10.01 15:23:00 - [41] Edited by: goodby4u on 01/10/2008 15:24:16 Originally by: Corwain Originally by: Micheal Dietrich Getting apartments is easy. When they check your credit history what they are looking for are bad/late payments in the rent area, the rest they can give a flying **** about. Bull. I needed a cosigner for my 3nd apartment despite having perfect record at my second apartment and having paid my 1st apartment in full at the start of each semester. (2 semesters total) And let me tell you, it sucks when you're 22 and having to talk your parents into cosigning for a damn apartment. I got my 1st real credit card (as opposed to the debit/Visa check card I've had since 16ish) and line of credit this year, the only other credit I had was student loans still being paid by the gov't as I'm still in school. Thus I had practically no credit and thus the need for a cosigner. Perfect credit? You realise that if youve never used a credit card before/gotten a loan before etc(alot more then the student loans)you have 0 credit right? Credit is something you have to accumulate, it doesnt start at 800.
Wendat Huron Stellar Solutions	Posted - 2008.10.01 15:25:00 - [42] Originally by: goodby4u Originally by: Wendat Huron Socialism sucks. Fixed. Raw unchecked capitalism did you a lot of good. These forums are FUBAR, upgrade this decade!
Micheal Dietrich Caldari Terradyne Networks	Posted - 2008.10.01 15:32:00 - [43] Originally by: Corwain Originally by: Micheal Dietrich Getting apartments is easy. When they check your credit history what they are looking for are bad/late payments in the rent area, the rest they can give a flying ** about. Bull. I needed a cosigner for my 3nd apartment despite having perfect record at my second apartment and having paid my 1st apartment in full at the start of each semester. (2 semesters total) And let me tell you, it sucks when you're 22 and having to talk your parents into cosigning for a damn apartment. I got my 1st real credit card (as opposed to the debit/Visa check card I've had since 16ish) and line of credit this year, the only other credit I had was student loans still being paid by the gov't as I'm still in school. Thus I had practically no credit and thus the need for a cosigner. You suck then. I got my first apartment (3 bedroom house actually) when I was 20, with no credit card. We paid first and last month rent and security deposit (roughly $1800). No credit card or anything, guy didn't even do a credit check. My second place was rented to me because I knew the caretaker. My third place again was first and last months rent and I had to file bankruptcy halfway through my year because wal-mart likes to ** it's people. At that point I stayed with some friends until I could get back on my feet. My 4th place I walked right into with first months and security deposit and a bankruptcy over my head. Then I roomed up with another friend who had all kinds of debt, again first and last months rent and security. Don't know what your issue is.
goodby4u Valor Inc.	Posted - 2008.10.01 15:42:00 - [44] Originally by: Wendat Huron Originally by: goodby4u Originally by: Wendat Huron Socialism sucks. Fixed. Raw unchecked capitalism did you a lot of good. Businesses dieing off is a natural thing, a company was stupid so they die.... Another company will rise to replace it in good time.... Oh and btw the DOW was up 480 points yesterday so that cuts into the 700 points it was down. Would you rather the government tell you how to think, where you go, what you do, where you crap, to breath or not to breath? Like akita said if our government was a democracy a socialist economy would work, but its a republic and being a republic means that the economy would be controlled by some of the most greedy, power hungry people on this planet and do you think they will stop for the little guy?
Pwett Minmatar QUANT Corp. QUANT Hegemony	Posted - 2008.10.01 15:43:00 - [45] sigh I apologize for this thread. The idea for the OP originated in a letter I wrote to My Senator (Obama) about two weeks ago. I assure you, it was written much better, with accurate maths and stuff. I sent it to a friend for a chuckle and it went viral from there. Here's the Original Letter Quote: Dear Senators Durbin and Obama, While I disagree with the purchase of a private company with my money, I would respectfully request that you transfer my shares of AIG, which I calculate would come to 131 shares, to be transferred to my Fidelity Roth IRA account. I will forward my account information after confirmation from the Senate. For calculation's sake: $87,000,000,000 divided by an estimated 300,000,000 citizens equates to about $290 per man, woman and child. At the time of this request, the ask price is $2.21, and I will ignore the fifth of a share that is otherwise owed. Much Appreciated, Fellow Citizen and Taxpayer, Nicolas Green I also got a response, but it was his stump speech me my name inserted. Durbin, on the other hand, has failed to get back to me _______________ Pwett CEO, Founder, & Executor <Q> QUANT Hegemony
Black Recluse Minmatar	Posted - 2008.10.01 16:41:00 - [46] So I'm no economics expert, but what I gather is if everyone is rich things cost more, if everyone is poor things cost less. So we're screwed either way?
goodby4u Valor Inc.	Posted - 2008.10.01 17:13:00 - [47] Originally by: Black Recluse So I'm no economics expert, but what I gather is if everyone is rich things cost more, if everyone is poor things cost less. So we're screwed either way? Indeed.
Wendat Huron Stellar Solutions	Posted - 2008.10.01 18:02:00 - [48] Originally by: goodby4u Originally by: Wendat Huron Originally by: goodby4u Originally by: Wendat Huron Socialism sucks. Fixed. Raw unchecked capitalism did you a lot of good. Businesses dieing off is a natural thing, a company was stupid so they die.... Another company will rise to replace it in good time.... Oh and btw the DOW was up 480 points yesterday so that cuts into the 700 points it was down. Would you rather the government tell you how to think, where you go, what you do, where you crap, to breath or not to breath? Like akita said if our government was a democracy a socialist economy would work, but its a republic and being a republic means that the economy would be controlled by some of the most greedy, power hungry people on this planet and do you think they will stop for the little guy? It isn't?
goodby4u Valor Inc.	Posted - 2008.10.01 18:20:00 - [49] Originally by: Wendat Huron Originally by: goodby4u Originally by: Wendat Huron Originally by: goodby4u Originally by: Wendat Huron Socialism sucks. Fixed. Raw unchecked capitalism did you a lot of good. Businesses dieing off is a natural thing, a company was stupid so they die.... Another company will rise to replace it in good time.... Oh and btw the DOW was up 480 points yesterday so that cuts into the 700 points it was down. Would you rather the government tell you how to think, where you go, what you do, where you crap, to breath or not to breath? Like akita said if our government was a democracy a socialist economy would work, but its a republic and being a republic means that the economy would be controlled by some of the most greedy, power hungry people on this planet and do you think they will stop for the little guy? It isn't? Explain.
Pwett Minmatar QUANT Corp. QUANT Hegemony	Posted - 2008.10.01 18:38:00 - [50] Simply put, we need to allow businesses to succeed and we need to let them fail. That's really the only point you need to get across. _______________ Pwett CEO, Founder, & Executor <Q> QUANT Hegemony

Wendat Huron Stellar Solutions	Posted - 2008.10.01 19:01:00 - [51] Originally by: goodby4u Originally by: Wendat Huron Originally by: goodby4u Originally by: Wendat Huron Originally by: goodby4u Originally by: Wendat Huron Socialism sucks. Fixed. Raw unchecked capitalism did you a lot of good. Businesses dieing off is a natural thing, a company was stupid so they die.... Another company will rise to replace it in good time.... Oh and btw the DOW was up 480 points yesterday so that cuts into the 700 points it was down. Would you rather the government tell you how to think, where you go, what you do, where you crap, to breath or not to breath? Like akita said if our government was a democracy a socialist economy would work, but its a republic and being a republic means that the economy would be controlled by some of the most greedy, power hungry people on this planet and do you think they will stop for the little guy? It isn't? Explain. Misread it, you were stating fact, I read it as you presenting a hypothesis. These forums are FUBAR, upgrade this decade!
Mankirks Wife	Posted - 2008.10.01 19:05:00 - [52] Originally by: goodby4u Edited by: goodby4u on 01/10/2008 15:24:16 Originally by: Corwain Originally by: Micheal Dietrich Getting apartments is easy. When they check your credit history what they are looking for are bad/late payments in the rent area, the rest they can give a flying **** about. Bull. I needed a cosigner for my 3nd apartment despite having perfect record at my second apartment and having paid my 1st apartment in full at the start of each semester. (2 semesters total) And let me tell you, it sucks when you're 22 and having to talk your parents into cosigning for a damn apartment. I got my 1st real credit card (as opposed to the debit/Visa check card I've had since 16ish) and line of credit this year, the only other credit I had was student loans still being paid by the gov't as I'm still in school. Thus I had practically no credit and thus the need for a cosigner. Perfect credit? You realise that if youve never used a credit card before/gotten a loan before etc(alot more then the student loans)you have 0 credit right? Credit is something you have to accumulate, it doesnt start at 800. This is true. I started my adult life the shirt on my back and a $5.25/hr job at McDonalds and I remember how hard it was to get anyone to deal with me since I didn't have a respectable job, had no savings, and had no credit. I eventually persuaded a local bank to give me a $1200 loan for a new computer, and that was how I was able to get started. The key is once you can persuade someone to give you credit, no matter how small the amount, take care of it. I've never, ever missed or been late on a payment I've owed anyone, one the one occasion my credit card debt did get out of hand (in the late 90s, I started a web based business, it did rather well, then the tech bubble burst and everything kind of imploded) I was able to eventually handle it without missing any payments or going into default, and now 12 years later I have a credit score in the 700s and even with all this crazy shit going on people still want to give me credit cards (I have one - it has a 7.9% fixed rate, I pay off my balance every month, and I have no intention of ever getting another card). Of course, the credit system only works if the people giving out the credit don't get stupid and (excessively) greedy - both of which have happened in abundance. I don't want to see the whole system grind to a halt, but what I don't like about the proposed bailout that got shot down earlier this week is that it does nothing to hold the people responsible accountable for what happened. I think the long-term consequences of insulating these people from the consequences of their actions would be worse than letting a few high flying, big banks fail - there's plenty of smaller banks that didn't get involved in this mess that would eventually step up and take their place. ---
Thorliaron Brutor tribe	Posted - 2008.10.01 20:01:00 - [53] tell the military they cant have $540b next year and use it for the economy. problem solved
goodby4u Valor Inc.	Posted - 2008.10.01 20:05:00 - [54] Originally by: Thorliaron tell the military they cant have $540b next year and use it for the economy. problem solved Thats lovely, im sure they can just throw rocks
Thorliaron Brutor tribe	Posted - 2008.10.01 20:06:00 - [55] Edited by: Thorliaron on 01/10/2008 20:06:36 Originally by: goodby4u Originally by: Thorliaron tell the military they cant have $540b next year and use it for the economy. problem solved Thats lovely, im sure they can just throw rocks im sure the army can outwit the ebil men in skirts for a year
Illwill Bill Minmatar Scandinavian Carebears AB	Posted - 2008.10.01 21:30:00 - [56] Nonono! The rest of the free world needs them!!1!one
goodby4u Valor Inc.	Posted - 2008.10.01 21:35:00 - [57] Originally by: Thorliaron Edited by: Thorliaron on 01/10/2008 20:06:36 Originally by: goodby4u Originally by: Thorliaron tell the military they cant have $540b next year and use it for the economy. problem solved Thats lovely, im sure they can just throw rocks im sure the army can outwit the ebil men in skirts for a year Maybe you should try entering a warzone, lets see who you outwit.
Sharupak Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2008.10.01 21:45:00 - [58] Originally by: Prof Patpending I say we take off and nuke it from orbit, its the only way to be sure. This _______________________________________________ RuntimeError: ChainEvent is blocking by design, but you're block trapped. You have'll have to find some alternative means to do Your Thing, dude.
Thorliaron Brutor tribe	Posted - 2008.10.01 21:53:00 - [59] Edited by: Thorliaron on 01/10/2008 21:54:34 Originally by: goodby4u Originally by: Thorliaron Edited by: Thorliaron on 01/10/2008 20:06:36 Originally by: goodby4u Originally by: Thorliaron tell the military they cant have $540b next year and use it for the economy. problem solved Thats lovely, im sure they can just throw rocks im sure the army can outwit the ebil men in skirts for a year Maybe you should try entering a warzone, lets see who you outwit. im sure a could outwit a lot of people. 1 man has outwitted the biggest military machine on the planet. how hard could it be to outwit the taliban!?
Captain Hudson Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.10.01 21:57:00 - [60] Edited by: Captain Hudson on 01/10/2008 21:57:10 Dont most american's have money invested in the stock market be it through your 401k etc?. So allowing it to go bust is shooting yourselves in the foot? Bin Laden Dancing

Illwill Bill Minmatar Scandinavian Carebears AB	Posted - 2008.10.01 22:14:00 - [61] Originally by: goodby4u im sure the army can outwit the ebil men in skirts for a year Maybe you should try entering a warzone, lets see who you outwit. How about not attacking other nations for a few years? It would be cheaper in the long run, I promise!
goodby4u Valor Inc.	Posted - 2008.10.01 22:25:00 - [62] Edited by: goodby4u on 01/10/2008 22:26:03 Originally by: Illwill Bill Originally by: goodby4u im sure the army can outwit the ebil men in skirts for a year Maybe you should try entering a warzone, lets see who you outwit. How about not attacking other nations for a few years? It would be cheaper in the long run, I promise! We tried that before, then this Adolf guy came along.... As for outwitting our military, I bet if you signed up for the marines you would have the inability to live in a warzone for more then 5 minutes without getting shot even with full armor, so dont pass judgement and tell our military their on their own.
Illwill Bill Minmatar Scandinavian Carebears AB	Posted - 2008.10.01 22:47:00 - [63] Originally by: goodby4u We tried that before, then this Adolf guy came along.... Let's refrain from drawing 1930-parallels. There is no need for turning this thread into an all-out flame war. Originally by: goodby4u As for outwitting our military, I bet if you signed up for the marines you would have the inability to live in a warzone for more then 5 minutes without getting shot even with full armor, so dont pass judgement and tell our military their on their own. Considering the ammount of cash you pour into your military machine, I'd be surprised if your marines DIDN'T have top-notch equipment. My point was that in times of economical crisis, it might be a good idea to cut down on the military budget. There is no immediate threat to the United States at the moment, and if you left the rest of the world to itself for a while, we might actually manage on our own. Last time I checked, the war in Iraq had cost a fortune, and I'm quite sure those money could have been spent in a better way.
Micheal Dietrich Caldari Terradyne Networks	Posted - 2008.10.01 23:02:00 - [64] Originally by: Illwill Bill Let's refrain from drawing 1930-parallels. There is no need for turning this thread into an all-out flame war. Don't you mean 1940's?
goodby4u Valor Inc.	Posted - 2008.10.01 23:36:00 - [65] Edited by: goodby4u on 01/10/2008 23:37:04 Originally by: Illwill Bill Originally by: goodby4u We tried that before, then this Adolf guy came along.... Let's refrain from drawing 1930-parallels. There is no need for turning this thread into an all-out flame war. Originally by: goodby4u As for outwitting our military, I bet if you signed up for the marines you would have the inability to live in a warzone for more then 5 minutes without getting shot even with full armor, so dont pass judgement and tell our military their on their own. Considering the ammount of cash you pour into your military machine, I'd be surprised if your marines DIDN'T have top-notch equipment. My point was that in times of economical crisis, it might be a good idea to cut down on the military budget. There is no immediate threat to the United States at the moment, and if you left the rest of the world to itself for a while, we might actually manage on our own. Last time I checked, the war in Iraq had cost a fortune, and I'm quite sure those money could have been spent in a better way. 1)Thats when we turned away from our isolationist views, it was important to show why we did aswell. 2)Well it depends,war provides both jobs and a distraction from the general public's crappy lives, given at the expense of lives but those are two affects that war has on the economy, so in this war is providing both jobs(ie people away from our welfare system)and lowers the suicide rate. Also if our marines are fighting in a war I want them to have the best equipment possible to protect them.
Captain Hudson Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.10.01 23:38:00 - [66] Originally by: Micheal Dietrich Originally by: Illwill Bill Let's refrain from drawing 1930-parallels. There is no need for turning this thread into an all-out flame war. Don't you mean 1940's? i think he was talking about the rise of ****** and not the actual start of ww2 Bin Laden Dancing
Thorliaron Brutor tribe	Posted - 2008.10.01 23:40:00 - [67] Originally by: goodby4u Edited by: goodby4u on 01/10/2008 23:37:04 Originally by: Illwill Bill Originally by: goodby4u We tried that before, then this Adolf guy came along.... Let's refrain from drawing 1930-parallels. There is no need for turning this thread into an all-out flame war. Originally by: goodby4u As for outwitting our military, I bet if you signed up for the marines you would have the inability to live in a warzone for more then 5 minutes without getting shot even with full armor, so dont pass judgement and tell our military their on their own. Considering the ammount of cash you pour into your military machine, I'd be surprised if your marines DIDN'T have top-notch equipment. My point was that in times of economical crisis, it might be a good idea to cut down on the military budget. There is no immediate threat to the United States at the moment, and if you left the rest of the world to itself for a while, we might actually manage on our own. Last time I checked, the war in Iraq had cost a fortune, and I'm quite sure those money could have been spent in a better way. 1)Thats when we turned away from our isolationist views, it was important to show why we did aswell. 2)Well it depends,war provides both jobs and a distraction from the general public's crappy lives, given at the expense of lives but those are two affects that war has on the economy, so in this war is providing both jobs(ie people away from our welfare system)and lowers the suicide rate. Also if our marines are fighting in a war I want them to have the best equipment possible to protect them. it's not a war, your not fighting another nations military units.
Micheal Dietrich Caldari Terradyne Networks	Posted - 2008.10.01 23:45:00 - [68] Originally by: Captain Hudson Originally by: Micheal Dietrich Originally by: Illwill Bill Let's refrain from drawing 1930-parallels. There is no need for turning this thread into an all-out flame war. Don't you mean 1940's? i think he was talking about the rise of **** and not the actual start of ww2 Even though **** was in power during the 30's he didn't actually start trouble until '39, and even then we didn't join until '41 so in his response to Goodbye he's off by 10 years.
goodby4u Valor Inc.	Posted - 2008.10.02 00:12:00 - [69] Edited by: goodby4u on 02/10/2008 00:14:27 Originally by: Thorliaron it's not a war, your not fighting another nations military units. If your being shot at by a guy with an AK47 whether its a war or not usually goes out the window, because an insurgent weilding a rifle is still deadly. But my fault, I didnt get the wording right..."police action"is what I ment. Oh and btw its goodby not goodbye
Slade Trillgon Siorai Iontach	Posted - 2008.10.02 00:14:00 - [70] <---- Jumps in with fire extinguisher in hand ready. Originally by: Crumplecorn NerfBat is now known as the WaveMachine. ≡v≡

Thorliaron Brutor tribe	Posted - 2008.10.02 01:52:00 - [71] Edited by: Thorliaron on 02/10/2008 01:52:49 Originally by: goodby4u Edited by: goodby4u on 02/10/2008 00:14:27 Originally by: Thorliaron it's not a war, your not fighting another nations military units. If your being shot at by a guy with an AK47 whether its a war or not usually goes out the window, because an insurgent weilding a rifle is still deadly. But my fault, I didnt get the wording right..."police action"is what I ment. Oh and btw its goodby not goodbye id think it as more of a dollar wasting exercise, seeing as taliban levels are back to what they where pre 9/11
Krychton Vorace. Exalted.	Posted - 2008.10.02 03:11:00 - [72] Originally by: Illwill Bill Originally by: goodby4u We tried that before, then this Adolf guy came along.... Let's refrain from drawing 1930-parallels. There is no need for turning this thread into an all-out flame war. Originally by: goodby4u As for outwitting our military, I bet if you signed up for the marines you would have the inability to live in a warzone for more then 5 minutes without getting shot even with full armor, so dont pass judgement and tell our military their on their own. Considering the ammount of cash you pour into your military machine, I'd be surprised if your marines DIDN'T have top-notch equipment. My point was that in times of economical crisis, it might be a good idea to cut down on the military budget. There is no immediate threat to the United States at the moment, and if you left the rest of the world to itself for a while, we might actually manage on our own. Last time I checked, the war in Iraq had cost a fortune, and I'm quite sure those money could have been spent in a better way. I doubt a serious cut of Military spending will ever happen, at least not now since America is fighting a 2 front war in the middle east. No immediate threat? This world is filled with threats. Hell, it wasn't to long ago that Russia threaten to nuke Poland, which would surely ignite a world war. History continues to remind us of the lesson of sitting back and doing nothing. It just isn't an option anymore. \|Vorace.Ö Website\|
Viktor Fyretracker Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.10.02 04:59:00 - [73] however as an American i see the middle east as a waste of my tax dollars. i feel my country can maintain the most powerful military in the world and be ready to assist other nations with a lowered budget. we dont have to be isolationist but we can still cut back on our military spending and still have a profitable economy. our aerospace industries are capable of remaining advanced without major military projects, the Boeing 787 is by far the best new generation airliner. and even in the A380 era the 747 still remains a popular seller(though im sure its partly because its the most famous aircraft in the world).
Intense Thinker Minmatar	Posted - 2008.10.02 05:03:00 - [74] Originally by: Slade Trillgon <---- Jumps in with fire extinguisher in hand ready. Hey! Get that out of my thread... the flames will burn!!!!!! --------------------- It's me! Your lovable forum warrior!!!
Illwill Bill Minmatar Scandinavian Carebears AB	Posted - 2008.10.02 07:12:00 - [75] Edited by: Illwill Bill on 02/10/2008 07:13:42 EDIT: Fixed a few things. Originally by: Krychton I doubt a serious cut of Military spending will ever happen, at least not now since America is fighting a 2 front war in the middle east. No immediate threat? This world is filled with threats. Hell, it wasn't to long ago that Russia threaten to nuke Poland, which would surely ignite a world war. History continues to remind us of the lesson of sitting back and doing nothing. It just isn't an option anymore. You're NOT fighting a two-front war. You attacked two separate countries, and now you're cleaning up the mess. There will always be resistance when invading and occupying a country, and I can't see how that will ever change. While there's plenty of conflicts in the world, the US can't handle it all. Russia threatening and attacking other countries is nothin new; after all, it has only been a few years since a country in the middle-east was attacked on loose grounds. As I said: Sit back, cut down on the military budget for a few years. Fix your economy, and let your troops have a well-earned rest. The rest of us will manage. After all, we have France looking out for us! On an unrelated note, the Vorace web-site is one of the neatest corp-pages I've ever seen. Good job to the guy who created it!
Havok Dryke The Scope	Posted - 2008.10.02 13:11:00 - [76] Possible solution? Discuss. --- Originally by: El'tar I WOULD WARRIOR FOR WOMAN BELONG TO ME
Valan The Fated	Posted - 2008.10.02 15:21:00 - [77] About the war. I believe the Iraq war was started to placate Israel so they would agree to another peace deal to make the region stable. There was no way Israel was gonna back down with a nutter on the doorstep. The constant backing of Israel is why the US is in the firing line. The UK gets off slightly better because while we back the US we don't really approve of Israel. Until they can stabilise Iraq they're not gonna convince Israel to take their finger off the red button and make things worse. The Afghan war is a direct assault on the terrorist organisations. It's not to make Afghanistan a better place it's to take the war off our doorstep and provide a killing ground for sorting extremists out within easy walking distance of their breeding grounds. While the troops are engaging them there and they're happy to attack infidels and get bombed into the next life they're not here looking for targets. So while it does cost you money to keep them there in taxes you're not dodging extremists on your way to work. Soon as the poor devils realise that they're getting mullered and they'll have more affect attacking soft targets instead of the SAS and tooled up Marines we'll be in real trouble again. I must admit I'm critical of the US but at the end of the day a Marine may not discover perpetual energy but he does what he does well and has the resolve to do it. The only way to tackle a fanatic is to send your own better equipped fanatics in. /start sig I love old characters that post 'I've beeen playing the game four years' when I know their account has been sold on. /end sig
Ademaro Imre Caldari Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2008.10.02 16:09:00 - [78] Originally by: Illwill Bill Last time I checked, the war in Iraq had cost a fortune, and I'm quite sure those money could have been spent in a better way. The entire US military budget, is 11% of what the US gives in welfare to senior citizens.
Pwett Minmatar QUANT Corp. QUANT Hegemony	Posted - 2008.10.02 16:11:00 - [79] Actually, the numbers are pretty equal in terms of payouts, but there's a bigger difference. The military budget is paying people to do work. The welfare budget is paying people not to work. _______________ Pwett CEO, Founder, & Executor <Q> QUANT Hegemony
Tao Han Ginnungagaps Rymdfarargille Blade.	Posted - 2008.10.02 17:29:00 - [80] Originally by: Ademaro Imre Edited by: Ademaro Imre on 02/10/2008 16:35:34 Originally by: Illwill Bill Last time I checked, the war in Iraq had cost a fortune, and I'm quite sure those money could have been spent in a better way. The entire US military budget, is 11% of what the US gives in welfare to senior citizens. I agree, the US military budget should be reduced. The US should evacuate itself from Europe, and force Europe to stand up for itself and not to depend on the US for its protection, which it has not done since WWII. Its hard to believe that Europe is not embarrassed with itself for needing the US to put down small armies in Bosnia/Serbia. Getting out of Germany alone, would save the US $8 billion a year. Germany isn't paying for that. I consider it welfare for Germany and Europe, to station troops there to die for Europeans if there is a WWIII. Your welcome. Protection from what? --------------

Micheal Dietrich Caldari Terradyne Networks	Posted - 2008.10.02 17:42:00 - [81] Originally by: Ademaro Imre The entire US military budget, is 11% of what the US gives in welfare to senior citizens. I agree, the US military budget should be reduced. The US should evacuate itself from Europe, and force Europe to stand up for itself and not to depend on the US for its protection, which it has not done since WWII. Its hard to believe that Europe is not embarrassed with itself for needing the US to put down small armies in Bosnia/Serbia. Getting out of Germany alone, would save the US $8 billion a year. Germany isn't paying for that. I consider it welfare for Germany and Europe, to station troops there to die for Europeans if there is a WWIII. Your welcome. I am quite sure that many nations of Europe are quite capable of protecting themselves. Those bases aren't protection, they are strategic deployment zones. You think we would have been able to bring aid to Georgia as fast as we did if we didn't have a base placed there? And the Germany station is mostly aircraft maintenance and wounded recovery ward. We also have several bases in Korea as well. I notice that you failed to mention those.
Pwett Minmatar QUANT Corp. QUANT Hegemony	Posted - 2008.10.02 17:49:00 - [82] It's a slow day at work, mainly running DB pruning scripts, so I spent my morning calling all the major bank branches in the Chicago suburbs asking for mortgage terms. Not one bank was unwilling to loan me money (I asked for loan terms for $500,000 20-year loans) granted I had a passable credit, and 20% down. Funny how that works? Apparently it's crisis material when people who can't afford their mortgages aren't allowed to get more of them. _______________ Pwett CEO, Founder, & Executor <Q> QUANT Hegemony
Corwain Gallente DIE WITH HONOUR	Posted - 2008.10.03 14:29:00 - [83] Originally by: Ademaro Imre Your welcome. As a fellow American I hope this was a parody of the false stereotype that all Americans are idiots and don't know simple grammar. Because it's 'You are welcome' sometimes abbreviated 'You're welcome'. NOT 'Your welcome.' -- Distortion\| Distortion 2 Preview
Reven Cordelle Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.10.03 14:38:00 - [84] Ignore it. See what happens... Chances are the market will self-stabilise after a certain amount of time. The rebate plan is a keen idea as the money will go into the market anyway, and taxes will go back to the government, alas injecting money and making people rich (half a million bucks isn't exactly pocket change) you can also cause issues. I find it easier to sit on my ass and make my biggest concern exist of how long it'll take me to save up for a set of Cragar SS Alloys for my car, or when i can be bothered to drive down the store for more brew-dizzawgs. Ignorance is bliss, call me irresponsible... but people are paid to sort out the countries messes, and I aint one of em.
Krychton Vorace. Exalted.	Posted - 2008.10.03 14:52:00 - [85] Originally by: Illwill Bill Edited by: Illwill Bill on 02/10/2008 07:13:42 EDIT: Fixed a few things. Originally by: Krychton I doubt a serious cut of Military spending will ever happen, at least not now since America is fighting a 2 front war in the middle east. No immediate threat? This world is filled with threats. Hell, it wasn't to long ago that Russia threaten to nuke Poland, which would surely ignite a world war. History continues to remind us of the lesson of sitting back and doing nothing. It just isn't an option anymore. You're NOT fighting a two-front war. You attacked two separate countries, and now you're cleaning up the mess. There will always be resistance when invading and occupying a country, and I can't see how that will ever change. While there's plenty of conflicts in the world, the US can't handle it all. Russia threatening and attacking other countries is nothin new; after all, it has only been a few years since a country in the middle-east was attacked on loose grounds. As I said: Sit back, cut down on the military budget for a few years. Fix your economy, and let your troops have a well-earned rest. The rest of us will manage. After all, we have France looking out for us! On an unrelated note, the Vorace web-site is one of the neatest corp-pages I've ever seen. Good job to the guy who created it! The definition of two front war: In military terminology, a two-front war is one in which fighting takes place on two geographically separate fronts. It is usually executed by two or more separate forces simultaneously or nearly simultaneously, in the hope that their opponent will be forced to split their fighting force to deal with both threats, therefore reducing their odds of success. Not going to argue the whole "sit back mentality" that's you're opinion and you're set on that. I don't like war in general, but I do believe its necessary, why? Humanity is bent on it, no matter how much people talk about peace. Imagine if the world sat back when Germany swept through Europe. Its not any safer now then it was then, especially now since we have dangerous people possessing nukes or trying to acquire them. Thanks btw for the comment on the website. I created it month or two ago, hardly used though. \|Vorace.Ö Website\|


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