Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5 6 7 :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Jade Constantine
Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
|
Posted - 2008.10.08 14:16:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: Vaal Erit
Originally by: Goumindong Jade has had a full permanent forum ban in the past and was allowed to participate.
Full permanent bans ain't what they used to be
Yes, it was harder to get a full permanent ban back then than it was today and the penalties that accrue leading up to said ban are more severe now.
You are very much mistaken there Goumindong. Back in the day it used to be possible to get a permanent forum ban for 10 signature size offenses if you were unlucky enough (or any combination of minor transgressions) the problem was that the forum rules made absolutely no distinction between minor issues and serious ones and simply handed out then perma-ban stick at a count of 10.
The new forum regime has several important improvements over the last one:
Firstly, most minor "offenses" don't actually involve warnings - where threads can be cleaned up with deleted bits, locks or moves those don't obligate the moderators to give warnings. Example being obvious ooc material on the IGS forum - the moderators remove the offending material now - but don't have to give warnings while they do it (though they do give public direction to the people making this mistake.
Secondly, as far as I know its not possible to actually get a permanent forum ban in the new regime without posting something outrageous on the eve-forums - and this means seriously offensive material. I think we can all agree that somebody posting ****ography or extremely nasty images deserves what they get.
There was a reason that scores of perfectly good posters got permanent forum bans back in the day and that was that all offenses were considered "equal" and it was a 10 strikes and you're out regime. Fortunately thats all changed, we've now got a professional moderation crew - and the moderators are using a lot more discretion in using surgery on bad threads and posts rather than a ubiquitous ban-stick and things are definitely better from the ccp end at least.
... nothing ever burns down by itself
|
Darius JOHNSON
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.10.08 14:32:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: James Lyrus Given that you cannot apply to be on the CSM if you have had a ban in the past, that seems not unreasonable.
This is not true. Jade has had a full permanent forum ban in the past and was allowed to participate. There was a cut off period, where, if you had had a ban that was not due to an EULA violation or "egregious violation of the forum rules"[not an exact quote] you were given amnesty. This amnesty carried over into the CSM process.
Re: Darius. Oftentimes they will not discuss it with the person in question either. I have received warning and other moderation and not once heard back asking for clarification or protesting the decision.
v0v Forum moderation is not within the CSM's purview so I'm really not sure where you could go to get that rectified, aside from asking that your request be escalated, which may very well still get you nowhere.
As far as the amnesty, while it was certainly necessary I wouldn't go so far as to say that it is no longer held against you. It's quite the opposite.
Originally by: Iroku Mata Darius is time to STFU and make your GSM place free for someone who got the humildity to have the job you claim and failled!
|
Herschel Yamamoto
Bloodmoney Incorporated
|
Posted - 2008.10.08 14:43:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Darius JOHNSON
Originally by: Ice Baby who got banned
Me.
I suspected as much.
Originally by: Darius JOHNSON Not to insinuate that it was the cause of this thread in any way
Oh, of course not
Originally by: Darius JOHNSON but I wouldn't wish anyone's removal from the council for the two heinous posting crimes of:
1) A "yo mama" joke on CAOD. - http://www.eve-search.com/thread/845561/page/2#39 "Inappropriate Language" 2) Saying something about how silly someone's comment was in response to them decrying the odds stacked up against them in the council. http://www.eve-search.com/thread/877824#12 - "Trolling and personal attacks are not permitted."
Re #1, That seems a less offensive thing than dozens of others I've seen elsewhere. More juvenile, but then what do you expect of a Goon on CAOD?
Re #2, I said nastier things in the same vein to the same person on the same thread. Gotta love the vagarities of the Report button.
Originally by: Darius JOHNSON A month apart. 2 week ban, though I was lead to believe that warnings don't wear off. If another warning is received it will be 30 days. v0v
Once I'm no longer on the CSM I don't expect my eve-o posting to survive the puritan cut mandated by the report button. While I may not always be the most eloquent or nicest dude on the planet I've done FAR from anything deserving of a punitive response IMO. I know when I cross the line and while at least comment #2 could have been worded better, I don't find it to be inappropriate.
I'll also note that CCP will not discuss the actions taken against other players with anyone but the player in question, which includes the CSM. To add to that the moderation team has declared its policies immune to the council. Those two items make this proposal pretty darn difficult to bring to fruition.
I thought the Council had jurisdiction over everything Eve related. You've brought up the forums, pricing schemes, and all sorts of other things outside the purview of the game itself, why would forum management be any different? ------------------ Herschel's Lottery #1 - Win a Kronos! |
LaVista Vista
Conservative Shenanigans Party
|
Posted - 2008.10.08 14:46:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Darius JOHNSON To add to that the moderation team has declared its policies immune to the council. Those two items make this proposal pretty darn difficult to bring to fruition.
Where do you get this from?
|
Darius JOHNSON
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.10.08 14:57:00 -
[65]
Originally by: LaVista Vista
Where do you get this from?
The community manager. I'll email the relevant portion of the email to the mailing list or post it on the CSM forum.
Originally by: Iroku Mata Darius is time to STFU and make your GSM place free for someone who got the humildity to have the job you claim and failled!
|
Herschel Yamamoto
Bloodmoney Incorporated
|
Posted - 2008.10.08 14:58:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Darius JOHNSON
Originally by: LaVista Vista
Where do you get this from?
The community manager. I'll email the relevant portion of the email to the mailing list or post it on the CSM forum.
There's a CSM forum? ------------------ Herschel's Lottery #1 - Win a Kronos! |
Darius JOHNSON
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.10.08 15:00:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto
Re #1, That seems a less offensive thing than dozens of others I've seen elsewhere. More juvenile, but then what do you expect of a Goon on CAOD?
Re #2, I said nastier things in the same vein to the same person on the same thread. Gotta love the vagarities of the Report button.
That was pretty much my line of thought, and I said as much regarding various other posts in the thread. v0v Difference of opinion I suppose.
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto
I thought the Council had jurisdiction over everything Eve related. You've brought up the forums, pricing schemes, and all sorts of other things outside the purview of the game itself, why would forum management be any different?
I'm not sure why it's different. Only that I've been informed it is. I don't agree with it either, but I don't work for CCP and wasn't a part of that decision tree.
Originally by: Iroku Mata Darius is time to STFU and make your GSM place free for someone who got the humildity to have the job you claim and failled!
|
Darius JOHNSON
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.10.08 15:01:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto
There's a CSM forum?
Yes, as of about 2 weeks ago.
Originally by: Iroku Mata Darius is time to STFU and make your GSM place free for someone who got the humildity to have the job you claim and failled!
|
LaVista Vista
Conservative Shenanigans Party
|
Posted - 2008.10.08 15:04:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto
There's a CSM forum?
Yes.
So far, it's just used for discussing issues which are being raised.
|
Herschel Yamamoto
Bloodmoney Incorporated
|
Posted - 2008.10.08 15:17:00 -
[70]
Originally by: LaVista Vista
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto There's a CSM forum?
Yes.
So far, it's just used for discussing issues which are being raised.
That seems like an odd use - each topic being raised already has a forum thread, by definition. You have the mailing list for private communications and the Eve boards for public - what's this third one for? ------------------ Herschel's Lottery #1 - Win a Kronos! |
|
Darius JOHNSON
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.10.08 15:19:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto
That seems like an odd use - each topic being raised already has a forum thread, by definition. You have the mailing list for private communications and the Eve boards for public - what's this third one for?
It's a better format than the mailing list for communicating. The mailing list is also provided externally rather than CCP. IMO CCP should be providing the tools the CSM needs to operate, so while I'm opposed to the private comms at all, it's better comms provided by CCP than some random 3rd party.
Originally by: Iroku Mata Darius is time to STFU and make your GSM place free for someone who got the humildity to have the job you claim and failled!
|
LaVista Vista
Conservative Shenanigans Party
|
Posted - 2008.10.08 15:23:00 -
[72]
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto
Originally by: LaVista Vista
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto There's a CSM forum?
Yes.
So far, it's just used for discussing issues which are being raised.
That seems like an odd use - each topic being raised already has a forum thread, by definition. You have the mailing list for private communications and the Eve boards for public - what's this third one for?
Well, we already spend tons of time during meetings asking questions on each issue. It's more productive to do that in a forum *before* the meeting. But it has obviously not been the case that people are interested in that, seemingly because they have to do it in a public forum.
So in order to actually have some kind of meaningful discussion, I personally, as well as a few others, posted all the issues that was being raised, right on there.
It was not very well adopted though.
Also, the mailing list is a privately hosted one, by Serenity Steele. It would not be good if it was to be passed on to the next CSM. A tool provided by CCP is much better.
|
Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.10.09 01:53:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto
Originally by: LaVista Vista
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto There's a CSM forum?
Yes.
So far, it's just used for discussing issues which are being raised.
That seems like an odd use - each topic being raised already has a forum thread, by definition. You have the mailing list for private communications and the Eve boards for public - what's this third one for?
Saves them time sifting the wheat from the chaff
|
Serenity Steele
Dynamic Data Distribution Ministry of Information
|
Posted - 2008.10.09 02:33:00 -
[74]
Well I'm glad this is a contentious topic :) Always more interesting debate.
Darius' point about the CSM not having influence over the Forum Mods is correct AFAIK, but that doesn't stop the CSM being given the ability to take action on forum bannings.
The interesting risk (again by Darius) is that a majority council could effectively "war-report" a fellow-CSM member they wanted kicked out (think thread-nought with reports); At the risk being forum banned themselves for repeatedly reporting posts that didn't deserve it. However that would be a neutral action, as the "war-reporting" majority wouldn't vote one of their own out of the Council.
On the otherhand, the "war-reporting" CSM would also be unable to communicate (or) do further reports.
The only way I can think to counter that is to simply remove a banned persons right to vote, and let alternates step up. As Alternates are sequential, this can also be gamed. Ideas?
≡v≡ Strategic Maps in Eve-Online Store | eve-maps.com |
Herschel Yamamoto
Bloodmoney Incorporated
|
Posted - 2008.10.09 02:41:00 -
[75]
Originally by: LaVista Vista Well, we already spend tons of time during meetings asking questions on each issue. It's more productive to do that in a forum *before* the meeting. But it has obviously not been the case that people are interested in that, seemingly because they have to do it in a public forum.
So in order to actually have some kind of meaningful discussion, I personally, as well as a few others, posted all the issues that was being raised, right on there.
It was not very well adopted though.
So it looks like the problem is that the CSM members don't want to discuss issues in advance, not the means for doing so. Unfortunate, but woefully common in groups like this - people think I'm slightly mad when I mail reports out in advance of the meeting so people will have time to read them at their leisure, when that's just simple good practice. Meetings of more than five people cannot easily contain a useful discussion, so you do the thinking and discussing in advance, and use the meetings for voting, plus some Q+A and hashing out issues you want to discuss in real time(of which there are a few). But the idea of a simple issue known and posted on forums a week in advance being discussed for the first time at the meeting itself is utter insanity. I am wholly unsurprised by how long your meetings take.
Originally by: LaVista Vista Also, the mailing list is a privately hosted one, by Serenity Steele. It would not be good if it was to be passed on to the next CSM. A tool provided by CCP is much better.
Use Yahoo Groups next time, or something similar. Lets you keep a mailing list up long-term, so future Councils can use it, without it being one individual's domain. ------------------ Herschel's Lottery #1 - Win a Kronos! |
Darius JOHNSON
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.10.09 02:54:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Serenity Steele Well I'm glad this is a contentious topic :) Always more interesting debate.
Darius' point about the CSM not having influence over the Forum Mods is correct AFAIK, but that doesn't stop the CSM being given the ability to take action on forum bannings.
The interesting risk (again by Darius) is that a majority council could effectively "war-report" a fellow-CSM member they wanted kicked out (think thread-nought with reports); At the risk being forum banned themselves for repeatedly reporting posts that didn't deserve it. However that would be a neutral action, as the "war-reporting" majority wouldn't vote one of their own out of the Council.
On the otherhand, the "war-reporting" CSM would also be unable to communicate (or) do further reports.
The only way I can think to counter that is to simply remove a banned persons right to vote, and let alternates step up. As Alternates are sequential, this can also be gamed. Ideas?
It does stop the CSM from being able to act on forum bannings as you have no way of knowing it's occurred and CCP will not communicate them to you. Since the CSM is not in a position to question this policy, nor any other forum policy, then effectively this topic is moot. If I'm a jerk who doesn't want to be removed from the council I simply won't tell you and because of the above items you'll never know.
Interestingly enough, being banned also prevents you from being able to apply for the council in the first place.
Personally I don't believe the CSM should be in a position of further empowering low-level divisions within CCP with undue influence over the selection process. I believe that to be specifically against the nature of the council in the first place. Any division of CCP having influence over the makeup of the council, without itself being subject to ANY oversight can lead to the same type of situations which the council was formed to prevent.
Ultimately while I like the idea of standards. I believe they're already being applied and leaving the decision in the hands of a moderation team who has already placed themselves outside of the process is a pretty daft thing to do.
Originally by: Iroku Mata Darius is time to STFU and make your GSM place free for someone who got the humildity to have the job you claim and failled!
|
Jita Johnny
|
Posted - 2008.10.09 03:08:00 -
[77]
Edited by: Jita Johnny on 09/10/2008 03:09:58 Edited by: Jita Johnny on 09/10/2008 03:09:19
Originally by: Coranor So who got banned?
Darius was a moron and went and got himself temp banned and this is Jade Constantine's pathetic attempt at what he no doubt imagines to be cunning subterfuge.
Voting no. I don't want CSM members to be removed at the caprice of the forum mods. |
Cory Trevor
Brutor tribe
|
Posted - 2008.10.09 03:13:00 -
[78]
Yeah, great idea! Don't deal with the reason of the ban itself, just trust forum moderators to decide who is and isn't fit to serve as a CSM!
Not only do I not support this, I'll go as far as to say that anyone who does support this should be ashamed of themselves.
|
Taedron
Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.10.09 03:16:00 -
[79]
Why are we even discussing this? What problem does removing a CSM over some temp ban handed out by the forum moderation/gm staff solve? Why would someone being temp banned on the forums mean that they have any less community support than they had when they were elected? And even if they did, why would that matter? They were rightfully elected in the first place, right?
|
CowsCANBark
|
Posted - 2008.10.09 03:35:00 -
[80]
Edited by: CowsCANBark on 09/10/2008 03:35:26 For the record:
Darius was banned in a thread for slap fighting with jade Constantine, unlike jade his arguments didn't devolve to personal attacks. Jade wasn't banned for some stupid reason, and as you can see Darius posting it was a temp ban.
I don't think forum mods should have any power, be it moderation over csm members. I also don't think if you have had a temp ban prior you are unable to run for CSM. Right now you can get banned for anything. During the T20 scandal many people were banned after the threadnaught. You can bet if a GM or dev did the same misconduct there would be another threadnaught, or perhaps forums mod, and that would be justified. The forum rules aren't always correct, and people in power aren't always nonpartisan.
-hellachicken
|
|
Cannibal PLT
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.10.09 03:41:00 -
[81]
Edited by: Cannibal PLT on 09/10/2008 03:41:29 This is adding more fluff where we don't need it. The unnecessary complications aren't worthwhile.
That, and it puts power over CSM delegates from people who shouldn't really be involved in the process.
|
Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.10.09 03:48:00 -
[82]
Originally by: Serenity Steele At the risk being forum banned themselves for repeatedly reporting posts that didn't deserve it.
This would be done with alts.
Quote: Ideas?
Drop it. You are already prohibited from running when you have a forum ban in effect, such there is no reason to allow candidates and representatives to be open to such attacks.
|
Interfar
Anti Behemoth Shipyards
|
Posted - 2008.10.09 03:55:00 -
[83]
/signed
|
Alkie
|
Posted - 2008.10.09 03:55:00 -
[84]
Thumbs down.
The CSM and the forum mods are two separate entities by design.
|
Barwinius
Ars ex Discordia
|
Posted - 2008.10.09 04:03:00 -
[85]
No thanks. |
Mondo Banana
Gallente GoonFleet
|
Posted - 2008.10.09 04:06:00 -
[86]
No support. This is an unecessary extension of power to forum mods in an arena they don't belong in. It only has value if you're looking for a new way to game the system.
|
Aprudena Gist
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.10.09 04:23:00 -
[87]
ccp moderation team should have no power of who is isn't on the CSM this would set a horrible president espcially with the level of meta gaming in todays eve.
|
Hercule Poitot
|
Posted - 2008.10.09 04:30:00 -
[88]
Hey, can you guys stop being such *****es and just focus on fixing this shitty ****ing game? All you have to be is a group of people that collects opinions from players about the game, and then bring a filtered and concise representation of those to CCP's attention. That's all, not space congress.
|
Dramaticus
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.10.09 04:31:00 -
[89]
I look forward to abusing the **** out of this. Please don't use RL pictuers of players in Sig without permission. - WeatherMan |
Von Kleist
Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.10.09 04:34:00 -
[90]
So far, this just seems to be another example of just how useless the whole csm turned out to be. Thanks for this.
|
|
|
|
|
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5 6 7 :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |