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[ISSUE] Caldari ships and weapons

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Cavalera Caldari AWE Corporation Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2008.10.07 15:56:00 - [1] More and more alliances are requiring its pilots to no longer use missile boats for combat. All of the missile based ships are almost worthless in fleet fights because it takes too long to reach targets and either the target is already dead or warped off before the missiles hit. Half of the caldari ships are worthless because of this as we are told fly a gun based ship or ewar. Give Caldari more gun based ships or fix the missile issue.
Cavalera Caldari AWE Corporation Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2008.10.07 15:56:00 - [2] More and more alliances are requiring its pilots to no longer use missile boats for combat. All of the missile based ships are almost worthless in fleet fights because it takes too long to reach targets and either the target is already dead or warped off before the missiles hit. Half of the caldari ships are worthless because of this as we are told fly a gun based ship or ewar. Give Caldari more gun based ships or fix the missile issue.
Herschel Yamamoto Bloodmoney Incorporated	Posted - 2008.10.07 16:27:00 - [3] As long as fleet fights happen at long range, this is inevitable and unfixable. Well, you could fix it if you wanted missiles to have effectively zero flight time under normal circumstances, but that's not an acceptable solution. My advice to you is either to figure out a way to get your torp Raven in close(like, say, use it in a small fight, where it's very effective), or fly a Scorpion or Rokh. You have gunships, and they all have range bonuses for you, the problem is that nobody likes them. I'd like to see the nature of fleet fights change so that more play styles are viable, including missile ships at close range. But even if it doesn't change, this is a problem that affects exactly four ships(Raven, Typhoon, Phoenix, Naglfar), two of which are entirely usable and the other two of which are having their fundamental problem addressed in other threads. It's hardly a balance-breaker. ------------------ Herschel's Lottery #1 - Win a Kronos!
Farrqua Minmatar Turbo Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.10.07 17:17:00 - [4] Missile boats in fleet is viable. However you have to fit a role like everyone else. Drakes are decent anti-support and not often targeted first because it is usually a waste of dps at the start of the fight. Cerbs are actually great anti-support. High DPS, very fast missile speed. Scorps, BB's and Falcons are your e-war strength and I do not know of one FC that does not appreciate their presence on the field unless you have to deal with them. Rohks are awesome snipers. Just need the training. Caldari has some pretty decent boats for fleet. Just need to understand the roles. There is a trade off with missiles. You don't miss and you maintain a consistent DPS on your target. However the trade off is that it takes a while to get there. You just have to think of positioning and how you can be the most effective, pick your targets. And start shooting the tertiary targets first.
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.10.07 18:25:00 - [5] More gun boats? What, like the Eagle, Moa, Ferox, Rokh, Cormorant? There's a Caldari gunboat in every shipclass. But really, missiles are bad for fleet, sure, but they have their place still. It's not like a Rokh does a bad job of being a gunship. -- Crane needs more grid 249km locking?
Kalintos Tyl Minmatar	Posted - 2008.10.07 19:34:00 - [6] misiles are bad? /me looking at sacrilage,cerberus,rapier,crow .........
Kalintos Tyl Minmatar	Posted - 2008.10.07 19:36:00 - [7] Originally by: Cavalera More and more alliances are requiring its pilots to no longer use missile boats for combat. All of the missile based ships are almost worthless in fleet fights because it takes too long to reach targets and either the target is already dead or warped off before the missiles hit. Half of the caldari ships are worthless because of this as we are told fly a gun based ship or ewar. Give Caldari more gun based ships or fix the missile issue. caldari misile issue will be fixed with nano nerf. They will be brought more inline with guns. ( higher signatures ion misiles), and better reduction of damage vs misiles.
Farrqua Minmatar Turbo Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.10.07 19:37:00 - [8] Yea I "think" he was talking about having a Raven spewing cruise missiles from the north forty. And having them take too long to actually hit what you had targeted.
Pithecanthropus	Posted - 2008.10.07 20:35:00 - [9] support... double all missile speed and explosion velocity. DONE --------------------------------- Pithecanthropus erectus, a name derived from Greek and Latin roots meaning upright ape-man.
Malcanis RuffRyders Axiom Empire	Posted - 2008.10.07 21:41:00 - [10] Edited by: Malcanis on 07/10/2008 21:42:39 If you're in a raven, just shoot the secondary. This is difficult? EDIT: Or nail the hostile falcons. Hard to argue with a 3000-point pure EM damage alphastrike vs falcons.

James Lyrus Lyrus Associates The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.10.07 21:45:00 - [11] Originally by: Malcanis Edited by: Malcanis on 07/10/2008 21:42:39 If you're in a raven, just shoot the secondary. This is difficult? EDIT: Or nail the hostile falcons. Hard to argue with a 3000-point pure EM damage alphastrike vs falcons. I rarely fly ravens, despite them being quite good anti-support, as all too often I'm flying Falcon/Onyx/Rokh/Eagle instead. -- Crane needs more grid 249km locking?
Malcanis RuffRyders Axiom Empire	Posted - 2008.10.07 22:01:00 - [12] Originally by: James Lyrus Originally by: Malcanis Edited by: Malcanis on 07/10/2008 21:42:39 If you're in a raven, just shoot the secondary. This is difficult? EDIT: Or nail the hostile falcons. Hard to argue with a 3000-point pure EM damage alphastrike vs falcons. I rarely fly ravens, despite them being quite good anti-support, as all too often I'm flying Falcon/Onyx/Rokh/Eagle instead. yeah well I was referencing missiles. The only boost Caldari missile ships could even think of asking for right now are missile velocity/explosion velocity scripts for tracking computers. Pic wants to double missile velocity? LOL... 20Km/s cruise missiles?
Cavalera Caldari AWE Corporation Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2008.10.08 16:04:00 - [13] Originally by: Pithecanthropus support... double all missile speed and explosion velocity. DONE Exactly! I believe that the missile speeds are way too slow, other ships are insta damage like they should. As far as the "Well missiles don't miss or missiles do more damage", missiles do not miss but that is assuming other ships haven't popped it or it hasn't flown away since you launched them. The damage is not a factor if the targets are moving since takes almost nothing to go faster than the explosion velocity. At long distances turret ships do not suffer the tracking problems like they would close up. They fire and hit, Caldari fire a missile and wait.. and wait.. and wait. It is not uncommon for me to have 2-3 salvos of missiles in flight before first missile hits and that is if the missile speed is 8km a sec. Most the time the missiles have no target by the time they get there. I know Caldari have turret ships but how would other races like to have half of their ships removed because of an issue like this.
Herschel Yamamoto Bloodmoney Incorporated	Posted - 2008.10.08 16:07:00 - [14] Originally by: Cavalera I know Caldari have turret ships but how would other races like to have half of their ships removed because of an issue like this. I fly Gallente. Ever try using a drone ship from 200 km away? ------------------ Herschel's Lottery #1 - Win a Kronos!
Cavalera Caldari AWE Corporation Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2008.10.08 16:08:00 - [15] Originally by: Malcanis Edited by: Malcanis on 07/10/2008 21:42:39 If you're in a raven, just shoot the secondary. This is difficult? EDIT: Or nail the hostile falcons. Hard to argue with a 3000-point pure EM damage alphastrike vs falcons. Only problem is that FC's often want everyone on the primary. We use to target secondary targets but it has gotten to the point where everyone wants insta alpha strike damage. That is what wins a fight right now which means no missile boats unless you are standing on top of the target.
Cavalera Caldari AWE Corporation Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2008.10.08 16:14:00 - [16] Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: James Lyrus Originally by: Malcanis Edited by: Malcanis on 07/10/2008 21:42:39 If you're in a raven, just shoot the secondary. This is difficult? EDIT: Or nail the hostile falcons. Hard to argue with a 3000-point pure EM damage alphastrike vs falcons. I rarely fly ravens, despite them being quite good anti-support, as all too often I'm flying Falcon/Onyx/Rokh/Eagle instead. yeah well I was referencing missiles. The only boost Caldari missile ships could even think of asking for right now are missile velocity/explosion velocity scripts for tracking computers. Pic wants to double missile velocity? LOL... 20Km/s cruise missiles? What is wrong with that? Do some math, how long does it take a current missile to get 150kms at 8.5km a second.. 17.6 seconds. So how many targets last 18 seconds unless there is a spider tank going? You could only get 20Km/s if you put 2-3 rigs on your missile boat if the speed was doubled.
Felix Dzerzhinsky Caldari Wreckless Abandon G00DFELLAS	Posted - 2008.10.08 16:49:00 - [17] missles are getting nurfed with the nano nurf - not buffed. You are asking for the wrong thing at the worst time. Missles are an ok wepon system - but in fleet, instant damage is key - any missle lag, no matter how slight, is a disadvantage in fleet - the solution is to train for the Rokh or train another races battleship (I would recommend Amarr). Missle lag is here to stay, missles are not gonna get faster (they are gonna get slower) so you best be planning for that. ---- ECCM is a Counter-measure not a defense.
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2008.10.08 17:34:00 - [18] This is a stupid threat. Caldari has a very competent line-up of railboats, and missiles are excellent - whether as close-range gank weapons, or as long-range fleet antisupport tools. And if your target warps from the field? Well, the entire point of shooting a ship is to remove it from the field. As long as you don't attempt to shoot the fleet snipers' primaries, you'll be fine.
Cavalera Caldari AWE Corporation Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2008.10.08 17:50:00 - [19] Edited by: Cavalera on 08/10/2008 17:51:25 Originally by: Felix Dzerzhinsky missles are getting nurfed with the nano nurf - not buffed. You are asking for the wrong thing at the worst time. Missles are an ok wepon system - but in fleet, instant damage is key - any missle lag, no matter how slight, is a disadvantage in fleet - the solution is to train for the Rokh or train another races battleship (I would recommend Amarr). Missle lag is here to stay, missles are not gonna get faster (they are gonna get slower) so you best be planning for that. See... if your Caldari which are known for missile ships you need to train for another races ship or use a non missile caldari ship. So like I said half of the caldari fleet is worthless unless your POS shooting or unless a Capital ship is tackled. The point of removing a ship from fighting is just that, blowing it up, just because it warps off does not mean its out of the fight. People can flame all they like, what if someone told the other races that turret guns are no longer effective and they need to train caladri missile ships how would you like that? Why have the race that is know for its missile ships only to make it so everyone needs to use guns. That defeats the purpose of having that race.
Cavalera Caldari AWE Corporation Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2008.10.08 17:54:00 - [20] Edited by: Cavalera on 08/10/2008 17:55:27 Originally by: Gypsio III Edited by: Gypsio III on 08/10/2008 17:35:48 This is a stupid thread. Caldari has a very competent line-up of railboats, and missiles are excellent - whether as close-range gank weapons, or as long-range fleet antisupport tools. And if your target warps from the field? Well, the entire point of shooting a ship is to remove it from the field. As long as you don't attempt to shoot the fleet snipers' primaries, you'll be fine. Next time read before you post.. FC's are telling people in fleet for everyone to shoot the primary and many are now saying if your in a missile ship thanks but no thanks. Like I said, either give the caldari more turret based ships or fix missiles since 1/2 of the ships now have little to no worth.

Farrqua Minmatar Turbo Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.10.08 17:58:00 - [21] So let me get this straight. You are asking for a change because some FC's in "YOUR" alliance is telling you to bring something else. And you are having heart burn about it because you are a special snowflake?
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2008.10.08 18:10:00 - [22] If your FCs are telling your specialised missile antisupport ships to shoot the snipers' primaries, rather than the enemy support, then the problem is not missiles, it's your FCs.
Cavalera Caldari AWE Corporation Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2008.10.08 18:26:00 - [23] Originally by: Farrqua So let me get this straight. You are asking for a change because some FC's in "YOUR" alliance is telling you to bring something else. And you are having heart burn about it because you are a special snowflake? Not just my alliance, every FC from every alliance I have been in a fleet with.
Farrqua Minmatar Turbo Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.10.08 20:22:00 - [24] Originally by: Cavalera Not just my alliance, every FC from every alliance I have been in a fleet with. So what. FC's have to work with the current lag prone environment we have to operate in. No amount of doubling, tripling the speed of missiles will make that much of a difference. It still has the effect of not getting there when it should on the primaries. It is what it is. With missiles you have consistent damage, always hit, no tracking issues, fire and forget, no fall off, no adjusting trajectory. Hits from 0 to max range. Optional damage types, requires flight time to get to target. With guns it hits immediately, tracking issues, variable damage, fall-off, hits are chance based, have to pay attention to trajectory, distance and so on. Hybrids have no optional damage types, need to change ammo to increase range or increase damage. Amaar has no reloading, variable ammo. Minmi has low dps but high alpha. So there is your trade off.
Cavalera Caldari AWE Corporation Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2008.10.08 21:46:00 - [25] Originally by: Farrqua Edited by: Farrqua on 08/10/2008 20:40:51 Originally by: Cavalera Not just my alliance, every FC from every alliance I have been in a fleet with. So what. FC's have to work with the current lag prone environment we have to operate in. No amount of doubling, tripling the speed of missiles will make that much of a difference. It still has the effect of not getting there when it should on the primaries. It is what it is. With missiles you have consistent damage, always hit, no tracking issues, fire and forget, no fall off, no adjusting trajectory. Hits from 0 to max range. Optional damage types, requires flight time to get to target. With guns it hits immediately, tracking issues, variable damage, fall-off, hits are chance based, have to pay attention to trajectory, distance and so on. Hybrids have no optional damage types, need to change ammo to increase range or increase damage. Amaar has no reloading, variable ammo. Minmi has low dps but high alpha. So there is your trade off. E: Plus the Rohk is one of the best Snipers in the game. Sounds like someone forgot about explosion velocity take away from damage or explosion radius. The effect is even larger against faster ships in a fleet fight. It doesn't take much to negate the damage of a missile. Yes the rokh is a decent ship but the cost is sky high.
Blastil	Posted - 2008.10.08 22:10:00 - [26] Missiles have their high points too, like the lack of tracking that allows a Raven to shoot down a frigate, no mater how fast they're going (unless they break 6 km.) Buying a Rohk is a much better solution than making missiles overpowered again.
Farrqua Minmatar Turbo Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.10.08 22:10:00 - [27] Your knit picking now. And looking for an easy button. Why in the world would any one fire cruise or heavies at a ceptor in a fleet battle? Why? You wouldn't. Cruise and heavies are reserved for Cruiser/Battle cruiser targets. I.E. BB's, Caracals, Canes, Falcons etc. When you are in the support, you should have a priority of targets on your overview based on what your ship and weapon systems can handle and the most effective. And as far as the Rohk being sky high, well yea but its insurable. And you get most of your cash back. I have seen the Rohk in 0.0 any where from 135 to 180. It depends on where you shop. And if you have buddies that can build you one, all it takes is a bit of effort on your part to have one built or build one your self.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2008.10.08 22:35:00 - [28] Originally by: Cavalera More and more alliances are requiring its pilots to no longer use missile boats for combat. All of the missile based ships are almost worthless in fleet fights because it takes too long to reach targets and either the target is already dead or warped off before the missiles hit. Half of the caldari ships are worthless because of this as we are told fly a gun based ship or ewar. Give Caldari more gun based ships or fix the missile issue. You see much drone boat or blaster boat in fleet operations? Here it go half of the Gallente fleet for exactly the same reason. And we don't even have a good EWAR ship.
Captain Narmio Baptism oF Fire	Posted - 2008.10.08 23:36:00 - [29] Complaining that the Raven is not a very good sniper when you have access to the Rokh is like complaining that you can't open a bottle with a cigarette lighter when there's a bottle opener sitting right next to you. You seem to be under the impression that "half your ships" being sub-optimal for a particular type of combat is a bad thing. How stupid would it be if every ship was good at everything?
Taedron Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.10.09 03:18:00 - [30] This is not an issue. Missile ships are fine in their role and Caldari have plenty of gun ships.



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