Meh. I've never bothered to sell games and I've never trusted used games. I like my library. Best box on the shelf: X-COM: UFO Defense. Original floppies and all.

"I've never trusted used games"

This you will have to clarify

Stolen/fake license keys, outright forgeries, missing documentation, bad discs that I can't test til I get home...it's no fun buying something only to find out you didn't really buy it.

Meh. I've never bothered to sell games and I've never trusted used games. I like my library. Best box on the shelf: X-COM: UFO Defense. Original floppies and all.

[quote=FloppieTheBanjoClown]...since they removed backwards compatibility for the ps3 with the ps2 anyway.

Stolen/fake license keys, outright forgeries, missing documentation, bad discs that I can't test til I get home...it's no fun buying something only to find out you didn't really buy it.

Stolen/fake license keys, outright forgeries, missing documentation, bad discs that I can't test til I get home...it's no fun buying something only to find out you didn't really buy it.

Funnily enough "bad discs" caused by copyprotection is the reason I stopped buying legitimate movies on DVD and I'm increasingly weary against the need to stay online to play single player games that I've bought. If I'm going to pay full retail price on a product, I want control of using that product entirely in my hands without having to rely on any outside entity. If that isn't possible, I'm not buying it.

A nice article on the subject. It seems more likely that all next gen consoles will push to kill used game sales. PC has this problem already big time as does other platforms,

PC has a problem with used game sales? /facepalm

OP has a point, used games for PC have almost disappeared over the last five years, DRM, limited install limits and digital distribution have steadily killed them off. Used games for platforms like Android/iOS and "casual" games simply don't exist.

Used games on consoles have also become more problematic with things like online passes.

Only games I've ever had to deal with online passes on the console is with games from EA.

I hate them.

OP has a point, used games for PC have almost disappeared over the last five years, DRM, limited install limits and digital distribution have steadily killed them off. Used games for platforms like Android/iOS and "casual" games simply don't exist.

Used games on consoles have also become more problematic with things like online passes.

People only have so much money. If they cannot resell games then they will buy less games. I loved it when I could take a bunch of old game into a shop and get a new one for it. And when I liked a game and wanted to play its predecessor could I just buy a used copy and not have to spend the full price on an older title. Now I guess I have to dump the games in the bin or they already come without a box and through the Internet. I see no benefit in this change for me as a customer and lose a bit of gaming culture.

Only games I've ever had to deal with online passes on the console is with games from EA.

I hate them.

It's not about you. When you buy games the devs/publishers don't get a cut. The people pushing this would actually prefer you buy less games but they're new.

Given the huge success of Steam on the PC it's been obvious for years that consoles would try to move to a similar model.

As for the car analogy, a car is a physical product. A game exists purely as information, the media it comes on isn't relevant. The only way to 'own' software of any sort is to steal it and it's always been like that.

Sure it is about me, but this is not the point...

Steam does not have success. It may seem so, but Steam is like the big graveyard of games and game makers and only in this role does it have success. Skyrim is currently the best example. The Elderscrolls series is not going anywhere, or maybe it does (it is going places...), but at least the PC market has lost in interest to Bethesda. They now want a piece of the console market and the series has changed to adjust for it. So while Skyrim sells well and finds many fans on the consoles has the PC part been dumped onto Steam for a little bit of extra cash. It is then entirely the success of Bethesda, but not that of Steam. Steam just can say that it is the best selling title ever. It shows how little they actually sold in the past, but of course you will not hear them say that.

If Bethesda had not created the console versions of Skyrim, but only a PC version that is meant to be sold over Steam then I would have predicted an end of the series. Bethesda themselves are also selling more titles now and have become a bit of a games distributor next to being a game maker. And, btw, every forum thread on Steam gets immediately choked by Bethesda's forum moderators. PC players still hate Steam and Skyrim will not change it...

So much misinformation in such a little post.

http://store.steampowered.com/stats/

I think that speaks for itself, Steam not a success indeed.

I'm going to go out on a limb and assume he either wasn't here or doesn't remember the 10 years preceeding Steam of ******, unreliable DRM and not being able to find legit copies anyway because stores quit stocking PC games that didn't have the word Blizzard on them. It got huge for a reason you know.

Steam is the reason we still have AAA games on PC. I think the model could work on consoles too without causing a mass revolt but only if they price old games comparably to used like most games are on Steam. Which I doubt will happen so it'll be interesting.

So much misinformation in such a little post.

http://store.steampowered.com/stats/

I think that speaks for itself, Steam not a success indeed.

I am playing computer games for more than 25 years now.

Players have been forced by game makers to use Steam and so they now do.

You may only be too young to know what it means to buy games in a real store. You know, where you have to get up and leave your basement? Of course you think it is an improvement, but there was a time when you could return a game that you did not like or that did not work and got your money back.

Players used to have rights and they have been ripped off of their rights with the click of a mouse button. Chances are you only cannot not care, because you did not have to work to get the money for your games and it was given to you by grandma and grandpa.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/insertcoin/2012/03/29/the-coming-war-on-used-games/

A nice article on the subject. It seems more likely that all next gen consoles will push to kill used game sales. PC has this problem already big time as does other platforms, Microsoft are going to go nuts with WIndows 8 and try yet again to sell us their **** that they could not do with Windows Vista (they also ran into legal problems that time.)

I find this amusing and crazy at the same time, even starting to feel that developers and publishers are being self entitled pricks much like Hollywood and the Music industry is.

I got sick of hearing their excuses of crippling my games due to "piracy" ages ago and now they are going to target legal right of the consumer that we have when it comes to anything else. I always laugh when reading EULA's knowing they are not a signed contract where I live and by law I can crack and copy even a console game under fair use.

So, no used sales anymore? I figured it would happen sooner or later but the model they will push I am sure will be option 2 as detailed in that article.

In any case, does anyone actually want to buy a next gen console in 1 to 2 years from now sporting hardware worse than what PC's have today for another 7 year generation of rehashed games with no better graphics than Crysis 1 on PC released in 2007???

When will they learn. I have a hard time believing any gaming designated console could work in a year from now.

So what are your thoughts? Looking forward to more DRM? Being unable to take a game over to a friend and play? Lend, rent or even resell your copies? Are we evil for expecting to own a product we purchase and is Gamestop killing the industry?

Doing something for a long time does not make you better at it ...

... Just because you don't like digital distribution it doesn't make it bad.

Yes, it does. It only is not true for everything.


Who says I do not like it? The word assumptions comes to mind indeed... You only assume I do.

It is about being forced to use it and having no other choice. Skewing this little detail is typical for a fanatic. And there is no point in telling a noob that he is dumb nor in helping those who live in denial.

People have said that a CD or DVD can get scratched and break. Yet have game makers always replaced them if you only asked for it. With Steam come new problems and it is overall no way better.

Try coming with facts. There are none you can find, are there?

...As for facts how about the simple fact that digital distribution overtook retail box sales? For years sales of PC games dropped, yet digital distribution turned that around and led to an overall increase in PC sales. Really don't try the facts tactic either, you are just ranting. I linked the daily PCU stats for Steam, yet you still claim its not a success.

Noone is forcing you to use it either, you are choosing to buy the games. You are simply a fossil that doesn't want to move with the times. That happens, some people always find fault with progress. Yet you seem to focus on the one thing that's good for PC gaming instead of all the things that are genuinely a problem.

Steam has millions of users, it is also better value than high street retailers and Valve are a consumer friendly company. If you can disprove that with anything other than "booo hooo I dont like it" please do.

The overall sales did not climb because of Steam and the box sales dropped because we are forced to buy with Steam.

You only have no opinion.

Prove that. ...

I have plenty of opinion, and I also know what a subjective opinion actually is. But its OK grandpa, you dont have to like the evil digital distribution like the young whippersnappers.

No, you prove it to me, because you think it is the opposite! And you know you cannot prove it...

but you have no experience with what is happening here. You simply think it is wonderful to a click a button and get a game. How can such a company be bad, right? It is simply unbelievable to you. What you do not yet see, and maybe never will, is that you are not more than a dumb cashcow.

http://news.softpedia.com/news/Steam-Reports-100-Percent-Increase-in-Sales-in-2011-245290.shtml
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/112419-GameStop-Sales-Down-But-Digital-Skyrockets
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2011-10-19-ea-origin-has-over-5m-daily-users
http://venturebeat.com/2011/11/17/gamestop-digital-sales-increase-59-percent-in-third-quarter

You have no experience of "what is happening here" ... Those issues are hurting gaming, digital distribution is saving it.

I am playing computer games for more than 25 years now.

What you do is to point at Steam's own statistics. You only spread their propaganda and it makes you a silly fanboy. For all you know could you have been raised by Jehovah witnesses and now spread their believes at every door, because it is all you were allowed to know...

Players have been forced by game makers to use Steam and so they now do. You may only be too young to know what it means to buy games in a real store. You know, where you have to get up and leave your basement? Of course you think it is an improvement, but there was a time when you could return a game that you did not like or that did not work and got your money back.

Players used to have rights and they have been ripped off of their rights with the click of a mouse button. Chances are you only cannot not care, because you did not have to work to get the money for your games and it was given to you by grandma and grandpa.

Take a good look at your link. You think Counter Strike is in there because of Steam? You think Skyrim is in there because of them? And who the hell plays this cartoon of a game called Team Fortress anyway? And Football Manager...

And, yes, EVE Online gets sold over Steam with 30 days of game time for $14.99. A great deal but only for those too dumb to play the 14-day trail and then to decide to buy GTCs or a subscription.

Steam is moist air. Inhale it, it is good four your lounges.

You totally have nothing to add ...

THIS!!!! OMFG THIS! ...

I still don't know when, but about 3 or 4 years ago I decided to never buy ANYTHING EA related ... unless it was on STEAM and at around 9.99$ and they only carry old EA stuff. The games that used to be good.

I totally wish virtual poxes upon them from the core of my emo-geek soul.

... how little he paid for his newest game on Steam.

Who then is GameStop?.

Again you betray your ignorance, GameStop is only one the largest multinational video game brick and mortar retailer, online retailer and digital distributors.

If you didn't even know that how can any of your value judgements be worth the pixels they are typed in?

We need MORE DIGITAL distribution platforms

There are many of those. Only a nerd would know them all.

This is not proof, Jhagiti.

I am telling you about it. I already told you that you are not the owner any more. Not only have you lost your right to own something of value, but Steam reserves themselves the right to turn all your games off! Technically is it not more than a lease. I also said that you cannot return anything and will not get your money back. Nor do you posses anything of value, because you are not allowed to sell it. If you do then they it will have consequences.

It is couch potatoes, who cannot get up and who need everything delivered into their house, who pay only on credit while they own nothing to cover for it, who then see this as being a good thing and embrace it. They already have nothing to lose and the money they use to pay for it is not theirs either. Why should they care? They are not going to care about values when they posses none. Everyone else who owns their own property, their own house, their own car and with a positive bank account will not like it. People like choices and they like to posses things of value and of quality. They also like to pass it on and like to sell it.

Who then do you think gives you a right to complain to a game maker about the quality of a game when you have given up on its values? Nobody.

There are many of those. Only a nerd would know them all.

Just face it you know nothing and there is nothing wrong with disliking something either. You dislike digital distribution? Fine thats OK but you should really stop embarrassing yourself by trying to present opinion as truth when you obviously know very little about the subject you are talking about.

neither is your ranting, but I digress

It is a valid point, especially if Steam ever closes shop. Like it or not though ...

yea ok, this is where you can go suck a ****

Again, and since you still need to be told twice, is it just one of many retail stores. There are many more who sell globally. You only got hooked on one in particular. Enjoy, nerd.

So yes it is proof.

Truly spoken for someone who has given up his values and lets the industry take it off him. You are no more than a cashcow.

Maybe you only do not care, or do not know how, but seeing how you come to this forum to tell me says otherwise. Which is it? Do you use your wallet and avoid Steam when buying games?

Frankly, you're coming across as one of those paranoia nutcase that fortifies their house and turns their basement into a nuclear bunker because they think the feds are coming after them, apparently right before a global nuclear war will happen.

Clearly, you have no idea what proof is. The news articles do not draw a full picture of the situation at all. Seriously, pointing at the press release of 1-2 game shops is proof to you?

Why am I even asking ... You need to be forced to look deeper or else you will not believe it. I am only wasting my time with you. You do not want to know or care about it. You are happy with Steam, just like they want you to be. You are too young to know what you are missing.

What is it that Steam has to offer? Did you take a look at all their games? Sure they are cheap, but they are crap as hell, too..

Anyway you ar either the stupidist person in the world or your a troll. I am moving towards troll, surely noone can be as ******** as you.

American nonsense... As I asked before, what gives you the right to complain to a game maker when their games have no value to you? No one

And so they will not listen to you when you do. Some will pretend, some will try and succeed, but the majority is treating you like a cashcow, because you do not value their game and as a result do they only take your money and leave you with nothing of value. The game makers certainly do value their products.

What is it that Steam has to offer? Did you take a look at all their games? Sure they are cheap, but they are crap as hell, too. This is the state of your vision of digital distribution! But as long as you can dream about it does it not matter to you why it is the way it is

Maybe I do come across like some militant American fascist to you (... ...) but you sure come across like some kid who has not got a clue and hopes that it will all sort itself out.

So after all this talk is hate all you got?

Hate? No certainly not, I find you amusing and slightly pitiful. You threw any semblance of worthwhile discussion away ages ago, resorting to personal attacks, refuting sourced evidence whilst providing none in return and providing no value to the discussion whatsoever.

No, you do hate me. Calling me ******** is hate. Now you are a liar, too.

Telling the truth is not hatred ...

Yes, it is. When you hate someone one and express it does it become the truth.

Yes, it is. When you hate someone one and express it does it become the truth.

still waiting for you to come up with a reasonable response to my post

Like I said I don't hate you, or do you have the power to reach across the internet and sense what people think?

It is only an opinion you have. It is nothing to talk about. Sorry. Do you want to try again?

ah, gotcha, so all you wanted to do was to spout off your own piece and attack other's viewpoints, and then completely ignore them when they comes up with their own counterpoints, ok.

You know what, why don't you just keep at it, the thread is derailed enough as it is, and it's obvious you just want to troll instead of having any actual intelligent debate. I'll just step away, and think of your tears whenever I boot up steam :)

Hey I would love for us all to game using cloud but I also know as consumer we are getting more and more screwed over. Not sure how it is for you guys but today music, movies and books are cheaper than ever before. Games however is not, but the opposite, we pay more today and get less value with a ton of restrictions in place treating us as filth. It is annoying enough to have to watch FBI warnings and ads about how pirating=stealing when you BOUGHT the ******* movie, but with games we get limited installs and at least 2 DRM sometimes 3 and we even get told that we don't own it and they are nice for letting us pay to rent at full price basically. ...

Only today did I read an interesting story... Scientists conducted an experiment with rats. They lowered a bit of cheese on a string into a cage with several rats. The rats then automatically jumped at the cheese before it reached the ground. The scientists then changed the rats' behaviour by splashing cold water at them in order to make them wait for the cheese to reach the ground. After a while did the rats stop jumping and waited for the cheese. They then exchanged one of trained rats with an untrained one. The result was that now the new rat did not jump at the cheese either, but it adopted the behaviour of the other rats. The scientists kept exchanging rat after rat until none of the trained rats were left. However, no rat started jumping at the cheese any longer. It had become sort of a rule for the rats not to jump. Weird, right?.

Stop trying to be clever, you are not. If you where really clever you would understand that its called operant conditioning. (Or possibly respondent conditioning, your description is crap)

So much hate

Tyran likes to start fights over anything, don't mind him, he trolls every single forum there is.

Lord is it that serious?

I guess I should talk about how much gasoline and cigarettes cost when I was a teenager? **** in life changes and you can not do things like you always done anymore. I have nostalgia for payphones, doesn't mean I get angry because they don't exist anymore. Or flipping channels really fast with an old analog cable box, doesn't mean I don't use the digital menus on my TV.

Let's just face it, steam and other networks where you can download games is cheaper and more convenient than buying discs. Get over it, steam is here to stay.

UMADBRO?

So you have no values, you accept anything as long as it shines and blinks, and it makes you happy and it will keep making you happy. This is all good, but this does not make a good opinion. You first need to have an opinion to express it just as you need to have values to care for them. Maybe you have taste and style and we can talk about that, but this here is not a discussion for you.

and other software. Imagine buying milk and bread and you had to sign an agreement each time you do not to hold the producers responsible for their product, not to misuse the product other than its intended purpose and so on. You would think this is impossible, but it is not. All it needs is cold water ...

So you have no values, you accept anything as long as it shines and blinks, and it makes you happy and it will keep making you happy. This is all good, but this does not make a good opinion. You first need to have an opinion to express it just as you need to have values to care for them. Maybe you have taste and style and we can talk about that, but this here is not a discussion for you.

My values are very simple friend. ...

You just want to hate steam for the sake of hating it. ...

...
Most of the complaints I see about Steam tend to revolve around the service suddenly terminating (highly unlikely, but even so we'd all just crack our games and continue on about our business), issues about ownership (as I said a few pages ago, the only way to own non-open source software you didn't write is to steal it, and it's always been that way), or some emotional connection to physical goods (which I can't help you with).

If it was this simple and it was a mere emotional connection then we could just make prostitution a respectable business and declare marriage as illegal. The later often ends in court anyway and you lose your money either way!

Seriously, it still is about the values and there is no emotional connection here. We have established rules in business and with games and software sales do these rules get bend and broken. You own nothing, you need to agree with their politic before you can use the software and you need to fear the loss of your purchase. All you get is to pay for buggy games. There is a complete loss in values taking place and the kids accept it happily, because they do not know what this is.

An old saying says, "do not pay the ferryman before you get to the other side." If one does not understand its meaning and what it is trying to teach you then I suppose it needs Steam so that people can make the necessary experience.

All of these problems apply to retail boxed games as well. ...

No, not all. This is just the fanboy in you talking who does not want the truth to be told.

It is getting worse with every new business model in the games market. In the past could one walk into a shop and return a game that was buggy. Nowadays do the shops not take them back. It has become a standard practise to sell software "buggy as hell" on their release date and to make the customers wait for the fixes. It often takes months before the worst get fixed.

If you have a problem with a game you have bought on Steam will nobody listen to you. You can call a hotline, but you will end up talking the 1st line support, who will try to brush you off with reading FAQs and web pages. Should you manage to get through to 2nd line support will you be talking to a tech guy, who has got an MCSE and knows which end of his headset to talk into. But will you get help? No. Only when the problem has become so obvious that it cannot be ignored, and because masses of players write about it on their forum or make the hotline burn, will they do something. This then is called "costumer service" and "common practise", because you do not want it any other way.

You say I ignore the truth, that's because there is no truth to pay attention to.

Yes, I know about your values and, no, I do not hate them for the sake of it. I do not share their idea of a "good" sale, I reject it.

No, this is not what I am saying. I said you do not want it to be told. You know it is true and you cannot ignore it.

Keep those tears coming.

I have no tears, I am happy to embrace digital distribution.

You are the one crying and whining about it.

lol, people are still getting trolled by whitehound?

I think it should be blatantly obvious at this point that he's not really interested in saying anything other than "I'M RIGHT AND UR WRONG LALALALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU LALALA"

Thats unfair, I only troll stupid people or those that post stupid opinions. I argued with you in the Bioware threads because you where doing the 4chan zombie biodrone chant. But in this thread where you made a good point I supported it didnt I? I don't hold grudges over forum arguments either, that would be daft.

I enjoy constructive discussion but I cant help it when people are stupid, its just to funny.