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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 6 post(s) |
Zinnn
   |
Posted - 2008.10.15 12:22:00 -
[3451]
 Originally by: DjLowballer
Could someone explain to me why they are so angry? Just pay for your extra accounts. This idea of entitlement that you should be able to progress in the game without paying makes no sense what so ever.
Really, EvE players are supposed to be on the smarter side of the MMO spectrum but some of the replies here are just ignorant.
And it really begs the question - what is your income bracket? |
Shintahr Karga
|
Posted - 2008.10.15 12:24:00 -
[3452]
EVE likes to advertise that they have over a quarter of a million players, although we all know for a fact that that just isn't true. Personally I've only seen 35,000, maybe 40,000 on very busy weekends. So on average, that would mean that for every actual player who plays EVE Online, they run anywhere between 6 and 7 playing accounts. This "bug" or "feature" that everyone keeps talking about, if it is in fact one or the other, has been part of this game for over 5 years. CCP is going completely in the wrong direction with eliminating ghost training, for better or for worse. For one, they're not substituting it for any new or innovative features. Off the top of my head (and from previous posters), there are a few options that seem reasonable:
1) Allow multiple characters to train on one account, but only allowing one character to be played at any time per account.
2) Continue ghost training, but require owners to designate a "primary account" in which they have to keep active at all times, and possibly even pay a premium fee to run up a certain amount of "alternate accounts" at any time.
I would think of more but I am quite exhausted. In any case, these alternative options should be available to those who have put the time building up multiple characters, if they are hardcore players who enjoy to have diverse skillsets for their various corporations or alliances, or more casual players just looking for different experiences. Ghost training shouldn't disappear completely, if CCP isn't offering players alternatives or "premium subscription plans" to enjoy something that has been part of EVE Online for so many years. |
Counter Spy
|
Posted - 2008.10.15 12:25:00 -
[3453]
Edited by: Counter Spy on 15/10/2008 12:24:45
Todays downtime extended for 30 minutes due .... blablabla
We want back some money, because we can't got service and we paid for the game. |
Skogen Gump
Jericho Fraction
|
Posted - 2008.10.15 12:25:00 -
[3454]
Originally by: DjLowballer
Could someone explain to me why they are so angry? Just pay for your extra accounts. This idea of entitlement that you should be able to progress in the game without paying makes no sense what so ever.
Really, EvE players are supposed to be on the smarter side of the MMO spectrum but some of the replies here are just ignorant.
There are two big flames going off here,
One group of people are just angry that they are now forced to pay to level up. Whodathunkit?
The other group have (IMO) a more legitimate problem, which is the the way this change has been dropped on us, 2 days notice of a massive change to some peoples playing style and a certain amount of controversy over what was either a bug or a feature and how CCP are (allegedly) playing down the fact that they themselves mentioned this 'bug' as an apparent advantage of playing EVE.
I personally suspect that they always meant that you didn't need to be online to train, not that you didn't need to pay for your subscription to train - lets face it, that's not a USP, that's a stupid business decision! |
Ganymede21
FinFleet
Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2008.10.15 12:25:00 -
[3455]
Originally by: CCP Wrangler
As the recent news stated, we will disable the ability to train skills on a suspended account. Since this has caused a lot of debate we've decided to explain why we are making this change in a new Dev Blog by t0rfifrans: Why ghost training was disabled.
I totaly agree to disable ghost training...too bad GTC prices will blow up ..and at this rate i wonder if they'll cost 1 bil in a month or so ~X( |
HE TA
|
Posted - 2008.10.15 12:26:00 -
[3456]
BTW, 30 minutes of extra downtime was already fully paid. But I can't play.
Could I have +30 mins to my active subscription  ?
|
Lord Fitz
Project Amargosa
|
Posted - 2008.10.15 12:27:00 -
[3457]
Edited by: Lord Fitz on 15/10/2008 12:28:38
Originally by: DjLowballer
Could someone explain to me why they are so angry? Just pay for your extra accounts. This idea of entitlement that you should be able to progress in the game without paying makes no sense what so ever.
Really, EvE players are supposed to be on the smarter side of the MMO spectrum but some of the replies here are just ignorant.
It's not about the money, it's about the principle. Plenty of us would pay twice as much, it's the fact that this change is going to cost CCP money, thus making the game worse for all of us who are paying.
You don't progress without paying, your skill continues to train however you can't login, or change the skill, or take advantage of it, without paying again.
The point is that without that incentive, many people simply will NOT pay again, thus CCP will lose money.
It's one thing to go on about ignorance, but another to do it without actually reading any of the responses before stating that they're ignorant.
Even paying for all accounts and never ghost training, the reasoning given here is just a blatant lie. It would be easier to accept if they were telling the truth, people don't respond well to being lied too, even if they don't care about the content of the lie. |
Richard Aiel
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
|
Posted - 2008.10.15 12:28:00 -
[3458]
Quote:
Choosing an MMO to play is like choosing which large burley black guy you want to **** you up the arse while you pretend to like it.
lol |
Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
|
Posted - 2008.10.15 12:29:00 -
[3459]
Edited by: Misanth on 15/10/2008 12:29:49
Originally by: CCP t0rfifrans
The bug that became a feature
On Monday, we released news that we are disabling äGhost Trainingô, the ability to train characters on inactive accounts. This resulted in strong reactions from the community as many people were routinely making use of it. We explained the matter in more detail and pointed out that this had been a bug in the original game code. Those of us who were involved in the process of making the decision and communicating it to the community did not realize this bug had been so accepted as a feature that it was listed as such in our own documentation on our own website.
How can we not know whatæs in our own documentation? Well, to be frank, it was a case of insufficient communication on our part between various teams û a regrettable mistake and hard lesson to learn at the expense of the trust youæve placed in us. Thereæs no way to spin it and we wonæt add insult to injury by trying to do so. It was a mistake on our part and for that we sincerely and humbly apologize.
Many would hope that in light of this we will decide not to cancel ghost training and keep it active as an option but weære cannot to do that. EVE is already one-of-a-kind in allowing players to progress their characters through offline skill training. We stand by our policy that if you want your character to progress in EVE, you should pay the subscription fee. The fact that so many people have been able to do so for several years was our own oversight. We know this change, and our misstep in telling you about it, has created some discontent and we hope that over time we can prove our committment to make EVE better than ever for you will be evident as you enjoy the fruits of our labor.
Torfi
You know, that's not why people were upset. Stopping the ghost training is in much aspects sensible. The problem is your/CCP's way to address this issue, which was escalated by that mistake you mention in the manual.
This is a good sensible post which illustrate a bit better.
Remember what the CSM came from? The t20 incident (a guy you didn't even fire btw, another poor PR management decision). To provide transparency so the players could trust you guys at CCP. Where's the transparency from the CSM right now? They're just your errand boys, and they're suggesting game changes etc. That's not even what their work was supposed to be!
You need to learn your lessons. Right here, right now. Stop lying, stop spinning, straight to the point. Just speak your mind. We're not idiots, and this game you made is great, it deserves better management tho.
Sort out your PR. That's it. My 4 accounts stay put and I'll support you guys through 'nerfs' etc, not all decisions you take will be fun. But for ****s sake, start treating your customers like customers. Right now you behave as if we're some hillbilly s****and you're the upperclass politicians that sweettalk us with stupid words about 'change' and 'lower tax', but no constructive point to back up your statements. |
Lord Fitz
Project Amargosa
|
Posted - 2008.10.15 12:31:00 -
[3460]
Originally by: Ganymede21
Originally by: CCP Wrangler
As the recent news stated, we will disable the ability to train skills on a suspended account. Since this has caused a lot of debate we've decided to explain why we are making this change in a new Dev Blog by t0rfifrans: Why ghost training was disabled.
I totaly agree to disable ghost training...too bad GTC prices will blow up ..and at this rate i wonder if they'll cost 1 bil in a month or so ~X(
They may increase in the next month, but they will decrease significantly after that when people find their alt is no longer cost effective, thus decreasing the demand for GTCs and CCP's overall revenue stream. |
Counter Spy
|
Posted - 2008.10.15 12:33:00 -
[3461]
Originally by: Ganymede21
Originally by: CCP Wrangler
As the recent news stated, we will disable the ability to train skills on a suspended account. Since this has caused a lot of debate we've decided to explain why we are making this change in a new Dev Blog by t0rfifrans: Why ghost training was disabled.
I totaly agree to disable ghost training...too bad GTC prices will blow up ..and at this rate i wonder if they'll cost 1 bil in a month or so ~X(
No-no you are totally wrong. Not for bad GTC prices, but the CPP move on this way GTC will disappear.
30 days GTC was a first step. |
UnDeRBaLaNcE
The Dead Parrot Shoppe Inc.
|
Posted - 2008.10.15 12:33:00 -
[3462]
Edited by: UnDeRBaLaNcE on 15/10/2008 12:37:40
Originally by: yarrmarrMaybe/
you should look up the definition of a feature before posting again.
 1. A good property or behaviour (as of a program). Whether it was intended or not is immaterial. 2. An intended property or behaviour (as of a program). Whether it is good or not is immaterial (but if bad, it is also a {misfeature}).
From Learn That
fea+ture (fchr)
n.
1.
a. Any of the distinct parts of the face, as the eyes, nose, or mouth.
b. The overall appearance of the face or its parts. Often used in the plural.
2. A prominent or distinctive aspect, quality, or characteristic:
From The Free Dictionary (For you people who cant pay 14.95)
discuss the word feature
Definition of feature (verb)
forms: featured; featured; featuring
to characterize; to depict; to describe; to present; to emphasize
From The English Test |
DRACO selen
Dark Rising Shadow
Executive Outcomes
|
Posted - 2008.10.15 12:33:00 -
[3463]
Edited by: DRACO selen on 15/10/2008 12:34:23
woot I reactived one of my ghost trainers and they are still skilling?
edit: did the feture became a bug again? |
Paladineguru
Gallente
DAB
G00DFELLAS
|
Posted - 2008.10.15 12:36:00 -
[3464]
Edited by: Paladineguru on 15/10/2008 12:42:32
Edited by: Paladineguru on 15/10/2008 12:39:14
I myself have used this feature.
I have not abused this feature.
My job in the military can sometimes force me away from entertainment for unspecified amounts of time. far more than the month for bs 5. in fact i trained bs 5 active.
and you know. i did miss and think about eve. the friendly guys i play with ( and shoot at) were a nice reminder of a different life than the crap i happened to find myself assigned to. Any goverment employee will tell you how crap the pay is.
while eve wasnt exactly 100% on my mind. when i came home it was one of the things i had to budget for will less money due to how my job pays. ( more isk per hazard, kids etc...) so coming home from duty means less money. one of the things that kept me returning wasnt the pidling week or two i got of free training when my skill finished.
It was however the fact that a company cared enough about customers with my kind of schedule and real life conflicts to give a little back. thats why ive played this game since 2004 and paid for it whenever i had the time to play. that and the community ive had the priveledge to be part of and get to know.
only ccp can do the numbers but wouldnt it be more reasonable to leave a non abuser unpunished and leave the feature in. it might cost less on the bottom line to simply monitor it and pay someone to ban abusers, one more report on a gm's desk part of a list of names to be banzored. it shoud be relatively easy to tell whos ripping you off, and who is using a feature as intended.
though i would guess you can tell who the isk farmers and sellers are also after all isk only exists on your db. wouldnt eliminating them do more for you bottom line.
i guess farmers pay thier subs :( |
Counter Spy
|
Posted - 2008.10.15 12:42:00 -
[3465]
Oh we got the bugfixed patch without download. LOL
This indicates that there was no any kind of bug. |
DjLowballer
Amarr
FLASHTROOPER CORP
|
Posted - 2008.10.15 12:42:00 -
[3466]
Originally by: Zinnn
Originally by: DjLowballer
Stuff
And it really begs the question - what is your income bracket?
Not that its any of your business but its up there. But that really doesn¦t matter, each account is 15 currency per month. I have 2. totalling 30 per month which I pay in 6 month increments. Its 30$ per month, which is chump change considering the amount of enjoyment you can get out of the game. Can¦t afford to multi-account? Don¦t. It is not even me trying to sound BA, but logic says do not spend more money than you have. In Uni I played with 1 account and sucked it up. When my cashflow went up I got a second. Simple. You can cry all you want, but thats life. Some people have more money, some people have less and prioritze.
But to all these people ghosttraining 5-7 accounts(WTF), when they were all trained up were you going to activate them all at once? Or just sell them for easy isk.
I do think it could have been handled better by CCP, but in the end this really does not affect all of us paying customers with multiple accounts unless we want it to.
|
UnDeRBaLaNcE
The Dead Parrot Shoppe Inc.
|
Posted - 2008.10.15 12:44:00 -
[3467]
Originally by: Paladineguru
Edited by: Paladineguru on 15/10/2008 12:39:14
I myself have used this feature.
I have not abused this feature.
My job in the military can sometimes force me away from entertainment for unspecified amounts of time. far more than the month for bs 5. in fact i trained bs 5 active.
and you know. i did miss and think about eve. the friendly guys i play with ( and shoot at) were a nice reminder of a different life than the crap i happened to find myself assigned to. Any goverment employee will tell you how crap the pay is.
while eve wasnt exactly 100% on my mind. when i came home it was one of the things i had to budget for will less money due to how my job pays. ( more isk per hazard, kids etc...) so coming home from duty means less money. one of the things that kept me returning wasnt the pidling week or two i got of free training when my skill finished.
It was however the fact that a company cared enough about customers with my kind of schedule and real life conflicts to give a little back. thats why ive played this game since 2004 and paid for it whenever i had the time to play. that and the community ive had the priveledge to be part of and get to know.
only ccp can do the numbers but wouldnt it be more reasonable to leave a non abuser unpunished and leave the feature in. it might cost less on the bottom line to simply monitor it and pay someone to ban abusers, one more report on a gm's desk part of a list of names to be banzored. it shoud be relatively easy to tell whos ripping you off, and who is using a feature as intended.
Hey know you have help training.... not saying how because bad eula. But think about it. How else do most military train skills. help.. |
Arakn1s
Amarr
Aurora Cartel
AAA Citizens
|
Posted - 2008.10.15 12:46:00 -
[3468]
Originally by: imo vestuff
Dear friend,
while i disagree with you about this as a reason to quit,
i wish you everything good in whatever game your going to :)
Eve Online has been a blast with that many players, and im quite
sure that others will come. However its still sad to see so many people go.
However since your not going to come back you wont need your stuff anymore,
so i came up with an idea.
Why dont you contract all you own to me before you cancel your account?
It wont hurt you to do so.
Im quite certain that you wonder what i would do with all that stuff..
so lets play with an open hand: im going to invest everything traded to me
by leaving players (dont send your stuff if your not leaving!) and will
build or buy a titan class vessel from it next year.
This titan will be named "ghost trainer" as a memorial to all those
who we lost to this change.
anyways,
farewell, and see you in some other game :)
imo vestuff
QFT and get out of here |
Masazak
|
Posted - 2008.10.15 12:46:00 -
[3469]
Originally by: Skogen Gump
Originally by: Masazak
I do not specialise my character and can do a lot of things so I can try different things, but waiting a few months for the skills to do something then finding it is not something I liked is annoying.
Seriously, you're telling me that you don't like waiting for skills so you actually plan to set a skill and then stop paying for a while, in the knowledge that when you come back, you'll have progressed without having to pay or make any effort ?
You are the exact reason why CCP is doing this.
Disgusted.
Actually I get burned out or sick of playing, work gets in the way so does real life. So I take breaks and train skills which I would not normally train when playing for real to try them out. I have waited for most of my skills while playing but it has worn very thin recently.
I still keep coming back... which means CCP is getting my money. And as they do not delete accounts anyway there is no additional load on their systems from ghost trainers as the skills are only updated when accessed by an active account.
Other games I have left and never returned to. I don't want EVE to become one of them I as I do enjoy playing when I have the time.
A change like this will make me think twice. The spice of trying a new skill is sometimes the only thing that makes me come back.
Originally by: Skogen Gump
Edited by: Skogen Gump on 15/10/2008 11:27:14
My suggestion is that they consider allowing ghost training for accounts that are linked to at least one active subscription.
Not a good idea imo. This just helps the alt accounts at the expense of single account holders. It should be all or none. |
Dkiler
Dkiller Delta Force Corp.
CORPVS DELICTI
|
Posted - 2008.10.15 12:47:00 -
[3470]
"We explained the matter in more detail and pointed out that this had been a bug in the original game code."
GIVE ME A 4UCKING BREAK, so it took you over 5 years to figure out that bug, comon.. tell that fairytale to someone else
All i can say when the greedy pig gets fatter it just wants more and more, where will it end....?
And btw Mr.Wrangler,
insted of spending time on this why dont you fix the "Alliance logo sumission process" which is long overdue "21 of may" there you have a more important "bug" to fix for example !
 |
Jasqar
|
Posted - 2008.10.15 12:49:00 -
[3471]
Originally by: Jowen Datloran
Edited by: Jowen Datloran on 15/10/2008 12:02:36
Originally by: Rancid Oswald
No, during beta testing it was discovered, it was never "part of the game" it was a bug, at the time either it couldn't be fixed or CCP allowed it to happen.
Who the heck stopped paying subscription and went on doing ghost training during beta? How is that even possible?
True this bug/feature has been well known for a long time, but so has the possibilities to get rid of it. It is seriously not a hard one to remove, so it is in that light we need to ask your selves: why is this bug/feature fixed now?
Originally by: Jowen Datloran
Edited by: Jowen Datloran on 15/10/2008 12:02:36
Originally by: Rancid Oswald
No, during beta testing it was discovered, it was never "part of the game" it was a bug, at the time either it couldn't be fixed or CCP allowed it to happen.
Who the heck stopped paying subscription and went on doing ghost training during beta? How is that even possible?
True this bug/feature has been well known for a long time, but so has the possibilities to get rid of it. It is seriously not a hard one to remove, so it is in that light we need to ask your selves: why is this bug/feature fixed now?
In beta we could train more than one character at a time. Was a bit of a stink when they announced that that would not continue in paid.
Was around the same time they announced the one character training per account at a time that i first heard of "ghost training".
If i am recalling it right was talked up as a way to get people that had left game to return, just a bit of incentive to re-sub. Having a skill continue training to completion, is just that, a bit of incentive. Same as never deleting the old characters, (over certain skill point total) if they did would be 0 reason to return and start from scratch.
All it is, or ever was, was a small way to say come back you will have a better skilled character when you do than when you left. They seem to think they can do away with this now and not lose too much income, time will tell i guess.
Personally, this game bores the heck out of me after a month or 2, and that was only reason i kept coming back, little better skilled and never deleted. Now it is down to just never deleted..well so far:P
So both my accounts are over on 18th, was planning on using this to train a lvl 5 skill on them both then re-sub. Now i don't think i will be coming back. |
Zareph
Merch Industrial
GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.10.15 12:50:00 -
[3472]
It's clear they don't care. It's clear that some of the userbase doesn't either.
When the dust settles, and the accounts start going inactive, we'll see who really cares.
I for one have one account ending on Friday, another account I'm no longer reactivating as it still has 8d to go on mining barge 5, another account that while it finished Minnie BS 5 I am not reactivating because I'm not paying for Adv. Weapon Upgrades to train for a month, and a fourth account that shuts down on the 24th that will not be reactivated.
Then the last two accounts I own die days before christmas. Since I'm no where near a computer normally over the holiday odds are when 2009 starts I'll be looking for a new game to play.
The last t |
Gartel Reiman
Civis Romanus Sum
|
Posted - 2008.10.15 12:53:00 -
[3473]
Seems entirely reasonable to me - if you're not keeping the account's subs up to date, your character is kept waiting as it was at expiry until you reactivate the account. Especially as it's possibly to play for $/Ç0 thanks to officially sanctioned GTCs-for-ISK, I can't see how this is considered unreasonable at all. |
KusariNinja
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
|
Posted - 2008.10.15 12:53:00 -
[3474]
Edited by: KusariNinja on 15/10/2008 12:53:52
Originally by: Counter Spy
Oh we got the bugfixed patch without download. LOL
This indicates that there was no any kind of bug.
the "fix" would have been server side not client..... so it would not have required a patch to the client.
|
Zinnn
|
Posted - 2008.10.15 12:54:00 -
[3475]
Originally by: DjLowballer
Originally by: Zinnn
Originally by: DjLowballer
Stuff
And it really begs the question - what is your income bracket?
Not that its any of your business but its up there. But that really doesn¦t matter, each account is 15 currency per month. I have 2. totalling 30 per month which I pay in 6 month increments. Its 30$ per month, which is chump change considering the amount of enjoyment you can get out of the game. Can¦t afford to multi-account? Don¦t. It is not even me trying to sound BA, but logic says do not spend more money than you have. In Uni I played with 1 account and sucked it up. When my cashflow went up I got a second. Simple. You can cry all you want, but thats life. Some people have more money, some people have less and prioritze.
But to all these people ghosttraining 5-7 accounts(WTF), when they were all trained up were you going to activate them all at once? Or just sell them for easy isk.
I do think it could have been handled better by CCP, but in the end this really does not affect all of us paying customers with multiple accounts unless we want it to.
There you go. If your income is up there, that explains why you do not see the issue. Other people's income is "down there" already, and it's already stretching their budgets, and instead of paying for an account, they'd prefer to get the GOOD macaroni and cheese, with expensive ketchup. |
Zinnn
|
Posted - 2008.10.15 12:56:00 -
[3476]
Edited by: Zinnn on 15/10/2008 12:56:26
Sorry didn't see someone's previous post that answered the same question.. nevermind. |
FortiusPrime
|
Posted - 2008.10.15 12:58:00 -
[3477]
I think it's totally bad idea.
You choose bad time and bad season for that.
I explain: why bad time ?
Coz customers have alot of MMOPG for play, also there are alot of new "waining" games annoced - WoW:LotLK, Fallout3, Starcraft II (3 parts), Diablo III etc...
Bad season ??? Winter on the nose! all pplz will be hardcore gaming...
you have good competitors guyz and you do nothing for fight...
im gonna freeze my 2 accs and play in Blizzgames, hope u come to normal.
peace! |
Counter Spy
|
Posted - 2008.10.15 12:59:00 -
[3478]
Originally by: KusariNinja
Edited by: KusariNinja on 15/10/2008 12:53:52
Originally by: Counter Spy
Oh we got the bugfixed patch without download. LOL
This indicates that there was no any kind of bug.
the "fix" would have been server side not client..... so it would not have required a patch to the client.
Yes that was a server side fix, but not bugfix just a simple row in SQL database SKILL TRAINING END AT x.y date,time |
Jowen Datloran
Caldari
Science and Trade Institute
|
Posted - 2008.10.15 13:03:00 -
[3479]
Edited by: Jowen Datloran on 15/10/2008 13:07:15
Why do I raise my voice here?
Firstly because it seems like the game developers, people who are able to create substantial things, are taking advices/orders from the men in suits, the people in Marketing, who do not care about the product or the customers only the amount of money in can bring in over a short time period.
The official CCP explanation is that this is an "unintended bug/feature". This explanation seems very little plausible as the bug/feature has been in knowing existence for years and so have the possibilities to get rid of it. Another official reason is that "too many people are taking advantage of it". What is many, and is it in total numbers (likely) or in percent (unlikely, but would have been the correct scale)? And is it an advantage over other players or and advantage of the billing system?
What is much more plausible is that the timing is related to the financial crisis that is tormenting Iceland these days, and it is an attempt to pull in a little more cash. Of course the guys in suits will never suggest you to tell these kinds of truths to the customers, even though it is obvious what is happening.
So while CCP claim to be "at level" with their player base, they are in fact moving further and further away and the corporate alienation of customers we know so well from EA and SoE is growing steady within CCP.
Finally, I do not see this as a clever move from a business point of view either. Ghost training is/was an incentive for many players to come back to the game after having had a period of "burn-out". Especially when you look at the date and start thinking about that it must be around now that your Battleship lvl 5 skill has finished and if you payed for your subscription again, you would be close to flying a Marauder. Now this incentive has to be replaced with even more commercials and free 14 days return offers. But in a game where skill training takes months 14 days is not much, and I just do not see it that effective.
Subscription number will not droop like a rock tomorrow, but the effect will be seen in half a year or so as for many people knowing about the previous existence of ghost training or not, the most sensible thing to do after a burn-out is to never to return to the game. Based on of course that the financial crisis do not kill off CCP before that. |
Mr Manjuice
|
Posted - 2008.10.15 13:07:00 -
[3480]
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