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Squirrrel Gallente Squirrrel Industries	Posted - 2008.10.30 20:22:00 - [5221] Edited by: Squirrrel on 30/10/2008 20:22:13 Originally by: Ranger 1 Fortunately for me, I can read more than one line in the manual that is contrary to the numerous posts from DEVs over the years stating that this really wasn't an intended feature of skill training in EVE. Yet can't seem to read the thread or grasp the point eh? Please tell me how you go from this: Originally by: CCP Wrangler (April 2007) The skill trains until the level you're currently training is completed. You can't start training on the next level or new skill until you login of course And this: Originally by: CCP Jiekon (November 2006) Hi folks. I just want to let you know that skill training WILL continue while the account is inactive. I had picked this up wrong when i was speaking to Wrangler before and i mistakenly told him that skills stop training when accounts go inactive, this is why it was included in the patch notes and it's entirely my fault. This was a mistake on my part and the patch notes will be changed and that line removed as soon as possible. Apologies for the misunderstandings. To this: Originally by: EVE Online Senior Producer Torfi Frans - www.mmorpg.com Interview ôWe announced it as a bug, which it was to a lot of us old devs, but as it turned out, our website listed it as a feature because we had outsourced the writing of our career guide to someone who was not knowledgeable about the code itself, years ago back in 2004à It was like a virus waiting to get out and nobody had really given it much thought until it was pointed out when the whole debate started.ö ôIt was a general oversight on our part,ö Torfi admitted. He went on to remind me about the companyÆs origins as a smaller company. ôBack in 2004,ö he said, ôwe were a company of 40 doing what companies of 80 or 120 were doingà struggling to keep EVE alive. Back then, we had a lot of challenges, a lot of things we were doing and this slipped between the cracks. IÆm not saying that this makes it right, but in the larger perspective, itÆs just one of those things that happened.ö Yeah, no one at CCP knew about it. No one gave it much thought. These forums are littered with old posts from CCP where they don't mention it like it's a feature and say "it's there, but we'd rather you didn't use it so much."
Squirrrel Gallente Squirrrel Industries	Posted - 2008.10.30 20:28:00 - [5222] Edited by: Squirrrel on 30/10/2008 20:49:34 Originally by: Ranger 1 More stuff By the way, how's your wife now?
Lorac Caladon Caldari The Cowboy Junkies	Posted - 2008.10.30 21:05:00 - [5223] Originally by: Clair Bear Originally by: Ranger 1 I'd like to thank you for so eloquently proving my point. Last time I checked,paying 50% less than someone else for an account with a character of equal skill is indeed a fraction of the cost. And of course, that would be 50% less for each account that they ghost train on. Much obliged. Ok, do you think this game had a if(character.getName().equals("Ranger 1")) { disableUnpaidTraining(); } anywhere? This was a feature of the game available to anyone. Crying that you were disadvantaged because you chose not to use it holds zero water. Sorry. Devs had previously said the FEATURE is staying on tranq even though it's gone elsewhere because it's viewed as an incentive to resubscribe. That has since been outweighed by the need for short term cash. That simple. There is no in-game reason for this, no fairness in denying newcomers the ability to do what players in the 5 years past had as an option. Just simple "we are selling fewer GTCs, please increase demand kthxbye." Quote: Oh yes, if objecting to the concept of people paying half price to achieve characters equal in skill to everyone else in the same amount of time makes me a Quote: greedy, selfish, nitpicking bastard then I will happily start attending the requisite club meetings and wearing my ID badge. You're objecting to training not being cancelled when account is unpaid, not whatever strawman you just conjured up. Do try to keep up. Quoted for truth.
Bonefish O'Hallahan Gallente GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.10.30 22:27:00 - [5224] buttwipes Get OUT CCP
DeODokktor Dark Templars The Fonz Presidium	Posted - 2008.10.30 23:12:00 - [5225] Edited by: DeODokktor on 30/10/2008 23:12:42 Originally by: Ranger 1 I'd like to thank you for so eloquently proving my point. Last time I checked,paying 50% less than someone else for an account with a character of equal skill is indeed a fraction of the cost. And of course, that would be 50% less for each account that they ghost train on. Much obliged. Signed.. People paying 50% less for each account is obviously a bug.. Americans and Non-EU folk have had the joy of this for years!.. The recent **** of the icelandic currency means that now locals in iceland are paying 50% less for ETC's than yanks, and a lot less than europeans.. CCP, Your FanBoi "Ranger 1" who is on your side says MAKE IT FAIR... Forget the windfall profits you are making this month on your currency going to pot, change all billing methods to ISK, Pass on the 50-60% discount to players! To make it fair, also ban all Americans for 3 months (for every year they have owned the account) and Icelanic folk 5 months (for every year they have owned the account).. CLOSE THIS LOOPHOLE BUG NOW, FAIR PRICES FOR ALL, EQUALITY FOR ALL...
Richard Aiel Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.10.31 00:29:00 - [5226] Originally by: Bonefish O'Hallahan buttwipes CMON Goonswarm can do better than THAT ------------------------------------------------ CCP you are your own worst enemy. ------------------------------------------------
Chindi Yazzie	Posted - 2008.10.31 01:22:00 - [5227] Originally by: Ranger 1 stuff CCP Employee alt detected. CY
Corbin Swift	Posted - 2008.10.31 01:31:00 - [5228] Just a reminder. Today (31st Oct) is Strike Day. To show your solidarity with fellow players, and show CCP how annoyed we are with their unilateral decisions, do not play Eve for 24 hours. Until recently, CCP seemed to listen to what we had to say about the direction that Eve was taking. That may have been a sham, a pretense, whatever, but at least it felt like our input mattered. Now the dictators aren't even pretending anymore. There's more of us than there is of them, and we pay their salaries. I demand that they go back to pretending to listen to us. Player Power! Corbin
Corbin Swift	Posted - 2008.10.31 01:38:00 - [5229] Originally by: Corbin Swift Just a reminder. Today (31st Oct) is Strike Day. To show your solidarity with fellow players, and show CCP how annoyed we are with their unilateral decisions, do not play Eve for 24 hours. Until recently, CCP seemed to listen to what we had to say about the direction that Eve was taking. That may have been a sham, a pretense, whatever, but at least it felt like our input mattered. Now the dictators aren't even pretending anymore. There's more of us than there is of them, and we pay their salaries. I demand that they go back to pretending to listen to us. Player Power! Corbin It looks like even the hamsters are supporting the players in the strike. Tranquility Status Corbin
Chindi Yazzie	Posted - 2008.10.31 01:52:00 - [5230] And for the record, I never used Ghost Training on any of my 4 accounts. I agree that it needs to be removed. I further agree that NOT removing the other Ghostable aspects of the game shows exactly what CCP is leaning for. More cash. My main reason for cancelling ALL of my subscriptions is not CCP removing Ghost Training, but how they went about it, the lies they told, then the further lies they told to fix their first set of lies, and then the lies to cover up and fix that set. Adding insult to injury.. the extreme lack of discourse here in this thread, by anyone from CCP. 170+ pages and growing and all of 3 yes thats right, 3 posts by CCP employees (ranger 1 ccp employee alt not withstanding) and those doing nothing more than adding fuel to the fire. They have not once addressed or attempted to address the other issues raised by the customer base that are in line with ghost training. They said they removed ghost training to prevent "others from having an unfair advantage" but when tasked about the "Unfair advantage" of ghost research, etc not a word from CCP. The obvious truth to be seen here is not that CCP thought it was an unfair advantage to players. They had MILLIONS of dollars go up in smoke with the Icelandic bank they invested money with when their economy went belly up. They lost big so to attempt to make up for that wallet PVP the economy engaged in, they turned around and pulled some PvP of their own on the playerbase wallets. The end effect has been the loss of MY 4 accounts. All cancelled. Never to be renewed. All the stuff given away to friends in the game, all characters biomassed except the mains, which will be put to the biomass the day before the accounts play time ends. I am not atypical in this. many people who DID quit, or DID unsubscribe an account or two, did it not so much because Ghost Training was removed, but for How and Why it was removed and how CCP has subsequently handled the responses from the playerbase. "making claims" that only a few hundred people unsubscribed may be true, but calculate this. Most had multiple accounts. lets just say for arguments sake that the average was 3 accounts per player. 3 x $15.00 x 12 months = $540.00 540.00 x 400 (pulled out of my ass) = $216,000.00 a year loss. no company is going to see a 1/4 million dollar drop in revenue lightly. You can figure the actual numbers of unsubscribed subscriptions is most likely greater than the paltry 400 I used for my example. Especially considering that those losses will only accumulate over time as those who are off doing other things, return to find the skills they thought would be finished, never are not. so... Lets say 1000 people unsubscribed their accounts. 1000 x 3 x 15.00 x 12 = 540000.00 more than a 1/2 million dollars. ccp's earnings overall are pretty good yes, but now factor in negative PR (**** one person off they tell everyone) and you see a game that now has the potential of going into it's death spiral. I love EVE. I hate and would hate to see it die. But the manner that CCP has and is handling the concerns of it's player-base leads me to believe that EVE is not long for the delete button on their servers. CY
Rasik Argimater	Posted - 2008.10.31 02:00:00 - [5231] Originally by: Bimjo so is this plugging of a "loophole" to allow skill queueing in future ? No. First, it was never a loophole or a bug. It was a natural side effect of they way they designed the training system to have no loading effect on the servers. Training is not an active process in any way and is unaffected by game play. For training "completions" to have occurred by certain calendar dates regardless of game play or even account status was completely natural the way CCP designed it. The recent nerf actually adds code and server load to cancel training steps when accounts expire. Various CCP personnel stated at various times that this was the way the game worked. Forum claims that CCP was just acknowledging unsubbed training without affirming it as a feature are bogus. The same spin could be put on almost any explanations of game features. Game features are not documented or explained with the qualifier "This is an intended feature, not a bug or inadvertant game mechanic." The absence of such a qualifier is no evidence that a documented feature is not really a feature. Second, unsubbed training in no way stood in the way of CCP implementing a training queue. The way they could have co-existed was simple: a training queue would only be effective for active accounts. Unsubbed training (completion of the current training step) could have continued just as it has for five years with no effect on a training queue. CCP invented the term, "ghost training" only when they decided to nerf this feature. For five years the feature had no name; it was simply explained that training "continues" to completion of the current step while you are logged off, even if your account expires and becomes inactive. To have invented a mildly pejorative name for the feature at the moment of nerfing it is pure PR spin. In my opinion, CCP calling unsubbed training a "bug" in their announcement of the nerf was pure bull***, going beyond PR spin. I view it as a baldfaced lie. I don't like being lied to by anyone, much less a vendor I support with my subscription fees. Then they said, well, maybe not exactly a bug, but an unintended game mechanic we had long intended to remove. Remove??? There was nothing to remove, as unsubbed training was a direct result of the way training was designed and implemented in the first place. To nerf it they had to add* code and add extra duties for the servers. Then they alluded to "fairness." That was more PR spin and misdirection. Unsubbed training gave no advantage to those who made use of it. Rather, it reduced the penalty for those who, for whatever reason, let their accounts expire. And, of course, it acted as a powerful incentive to reactivate accounts, since no benefit could be realized from completed training without reactivating the account and logging in. Finally, after various twists, turns and apparent lies, one of the CCP people let the cat out of the bag: it was a business decision. Translation: money. Someone at CCP forgot that unsubbed training was part of the addictive aspects of the game, drawing people back into being paid subscribers, and thought that if they nerfed it they would somehow "force" more accounts to be active more of the time. Wrong! Nerfing this addictive feature just turned reactivation of lapsed accounts into a big ho-hum. The inevitable result, obvious to all except CCP and their fanbois, will be a lower reactivation rate and a reduced online population. To that reduction will be added accounts consolidated because it no longer pays to have extra part-time accounts getting some training done while inactive. To those reductions will be added accounts lost due to ppl being grossly offended by the lies and spin and the utter illogic of the nerf. The way CCP are stonewalling this forces me to question how intelligent the Icelanders really are. That they are well equipped with self-assured arrogance is obvious. This is my sig?
Lorac Caladon Caldari The Cowboy Junkies	Posted - 2008.10.31 03:04:00 - [5232] Originally by: Bonefish O'Hallahan buttwipes You are.
Ranger 1 Amarr Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.10.31 04:36:00 - [5233] Originally by: Squirrrel Edited by: Squirrrel on 30/10/2008 20:49:34 Originally by: Ranger 1 More stuff By the way, how's your wife now? She's good, still playing EVE after all this time. A bit irked that she missed out on killing Shrike's Titan both times this week due to work however. She'll have to wait til next time. Sorry for the derailment folks, please carry on... and on...
Ranger 1 Amarr Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.10.31 04:42:00 - [5234] Originally by: Chindi Yazzie Originally by: Ranger 1 stuff CCP Employee alt detected. CY Heh, nope. Just someone who's been around long enough to know a tempest in a tea cup when I see one.
Last Wolf Umbra Wing	Posted - 2008.10.31 04:47:00 - [5235] __________________________________________________________ Originally by: Liang Nuren wrong forum isroy i am vjery drunm
Lorac Caladon Caldari The Cowboy Junkies	Posted - 2008.10.31 04:49:00 - [5236] Originally by: Last Wolf Is that what you see when you spank it?
Last Wolf Umbra Wing	Posted - 2008.10.31 04:54:00 - [5237] At least I don't crying about not being able to advance my INTERNET SPACESHIPS character when I'm not paying for it. __________________________________________________________ Originally by: Liang Nuren wrong forum isroy i am vjery drunm
Richard Aiel Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.10.31 05:02:00 - [5238] Originally by: Chindi Yazzie Originally by: Ranger 1 stuff CCP Employee alt detected. CY This is one of the reasons CCP employees shouldnt be allowed to play the game ------------------------------------------------ CCP you are your own worst enemy. ------------------------------------------------
Lorac Caladon Caldari The Cowboy Junkies	Posted - 2008.10.31 05:20:00 - [5239] Originally by: Richard Aiel Originally by: Chindi Yazzie Originally by: Ranger 1 stuff CCP Employee alt detected. CY This is one of the reasons CCP employees shouldnt be allowed to play the game I tried to ask a simple question in GD and my thread was locked...
Ezoran DuBlaidd Freedom From Fear Industries	Posted - 2008.10.31 06:52:00 - [5240] Originally by: Last Wolf At least I don't crying about not being able to advance my INTERNET SPACESHIPS character when I'm not paying for it. they need to hurry up and disable skill advancement when you're not logged on and actively playing. i want to see all the "smart" people support that nerf as well.
Rasik Argimater	Posted - 2008.10.31 07:04:00 - [5241] Originally by: Last Wolf At least I don't crying about not being able to advance my INTERNET SPACESHIPS character when I'm not paying for it. Go away. You obviously don't understand the issue. This is my sig?
Ezoran DuBlaidd Freedom From Fear Industries	Posted - 2008.10.31 07:30:00 - [5242] Originally by: Ranger 1 Edited by: Ranger 1 on 30/10/2008 17:06:48 Quote: So, now that feature is suddenly a bug because a dev at CCP says so. Fortunately for me, I can read more than one line in the manual that is contrary to the numerous posts from DEVs over the years stating that this really wasn't an intended feature of skill training in EVE. You'll have to excuse me, and the majority of EVE, for using common sense and taking updated information over old information. Especially when that updated information makes perfect sense. If you can justify having multiple highly skilled characters for a fraction of the price that everyone else (you know, the ones that expect to actually pay the fee for being able to do game related things like training characters)has paid over the same amount of time, then good for you. While I have no animosity towards you, I really can't generate much sympathy for the angst you are experiencing. Its the price you pay for stubbornly attempting to justify what you were doing. It's hardly surprising that all of the new players (and most everyone else that's been around for awhile) are somewhat amused by your distress and wonder why you are having trouble dealing with CCP finally fixing a borked mechanic. Especially when it is a matter that allows you to have characters equal in skill to their own, for a fraction of the price. If you can't understand that in a internet spaceship game, then good luck to you in the real world. Edit: I almost forgot. For those spewing on about "thousands of accounts closed due to this change", the question was brought up in Zulu's thread. Closed accounts have numbered in the hundreds. Since the majority of those were already semi-active at best, your 170ish thread doesn't appear to be reflecting the true level of outrage thread has been claiming would be evident. It really is time to move on to more important matters, or if you feel that strongly quit running your mouth and quit already. This is old news and a dead horse. it's amazing that you can read between the lines; but it doesn't occur to you that inactive accounts in the midst of training simply aren't being renewed? or perhaps some of them are in the midst of a 60d gtc? oddly enough, i can't seem to find the posts of your (or anyone else's) outrage at this horrible abuse brought about by inactive account training, PRIOR to the announcement of the nerf. why is that? no really, why is that? why do you expect that you should continue to skill up while your character is offline? wasn't this "bug" fixed once before and brought back rather swiftly? i also wish to live in a world where i can pretend that only my words matter and that even if there is a ton of factual information against what i type, it's ok, because only what i type matters. so when someone makes a post in a few months wondering why there isn't a lot of noticeable growth lately.... please remember that it was only hundreds of accounts. maybe only 30 hundreds, maybe only 300 hundreds... how EXACTLY does one determine the number of accounts lost? has someone developed a metric to trace accounts that go active/inactive after X amount of days over X number of months/years? seriously, how does one determine that an account hasn't been reactivated, therefore it's cancelled for good? oh yeah, i'm sorry, you can read more than one line in the manual, so you've got these answers all whipped up for us already. go for it.
Muhammad Hamza	Posted - 2008.10.31 07:54:00 - [5243] Originally by: Last Wolf At least I don't crying about not being able to advance my INTERNET SPACESHIPS character when I'm not paying for it. I think its more of a way of protesting then cry wolf
Fivo Asia	Posted - 2008.10.31 08:06:00 - [5244] Again I point out, the whole thread is bull if you don't start selling skillpoints on my schedule. You offered ghost training as an inducement before and gripe when it seems to cost your bottom-line. I, OTOH, wish to purchase MORE skillpoints faster. I'll even double up on the points to profit ratio (skill points for 6 months for the price of a year's subscription) to sweeten the pot.
Rasik Argimater	Posted - 2008.10.31 08:30:00 - [5245] Originally by: Ezoran DuBlaidd Originally by: Last Wolf At least I don't crying about not being able to advance my INTERNET SPACESHIPS character when I'm not paying for it. they need to hurry up and disable skill advancement when you're not logged on and actively playing. i want to see all the "smart" people support that nerf as well. Yeah. If they could suddently decide that unsubbed training was a bug, they could just as easily decide that logged-out training is a bug. In fact, with some recent comments by CCP staff about a training queue being unlikely because they want ppl to log in, apparently thinking that when someone gets up by alarm clock at 3am to restart training that they will go ahead and play Eve for a few hours even though they have to be at work in the morning... make me think that suddenly calling logged-out training a bug may not be all that unlikely. And here's another one that may help put this in perspective: they should nerf jetcan mining. It seems to be widely acknowledged by veterans that jetcan mining was never intended. Not a feature, but an unintended game mechanic. Sound familiar? Except this one is really true. CCP intended that we mine, fill up the cargo hold, return to the station, unload, go back to the belt, rinse and repeat. Sound crazy, right? But someone figured out how to use jetcans and haulers instead, and the rest is history. So if CCP were to announce that jetcan mining was a "bug" and will be disabled in two days, would all the "smart" people support CCP as they have supported the nerf of unsubbed training? Despite the fact that jetcan mining, in hindsight, is what enables serious mining, CCP's original intent notwithstanding? Despite the fact that the game would lose most of its subscribers virtually overnight? This is my sig?
Squirrrel Gallente Squirrrel Industries	Posted - 2008.10.31 08:54:00 - [5246] Originally by: Rasik Argimater And here's another one that may help put this in perspective: they should nerf jetcan mining. It seems to be widely acknowledged by veterans that jetcan mining was never intended. Not a feature, but an unintended game mechanic. Sound familiar? Except this one is really true. CCP intended that we mine, fill up the cargo hold, return to the station, unload, go back to the belt, rinse and repeat. Sound crazy, right? But someone figured out how to use jetcans and haulers instead, and the rest is history. So if CCP were to announce that jetcan mining was a "bug" and will be disabled in two days, would all the "smart" people support CCP as they have supported the nerf of unsubbed training? Despite the fact that jetcan mining, in hindsight, is what enables serious mining, CCP's original intent notwithstanding? Despite the fact that the game would lose most of its subscribers virtually overnight? Well done for bringing that up. That's a good point. CCP acknowledged all along that jetcan mining wasn't as intended, and it reached a point when people were having ore stolen from those cans and couldn't do a thing about it. Did CCP "fix" the mechanic bug? No. They introduced Secure Containers. Hardly anyone used them, and went back to jetcan mining. People complained, ore was being stolen from their cans AND secure cans were too small. Did CCP "fix" the mechanic bug? No. They introduced the aggro timer. CCP have acknowleged both unsubbed skill training (I refuse to call it ghost from now on as it never was) and jetmining - and both became acceptable due to CCP's reaction to them and in some cases encouragement to use them. Still, that aside, the way they tried to spin the reasoning behind the decision , the continued mis-truths and lack of response to the outcry is the most disgusting thing and a bitter pill for subscribers to swallow.
Muhammad Hamza	Posted - 2008.10.31 09:28:00 - [5247] Notice how you place a topic on the EVE General Discussion about the Ghost Training subject, but then you don't get deleted, banned or stopped. Instead where you want to reply,"reply to topic" the link is not there anymore just a new topic. See how CCP want to cover this problem up quickly. They CCP want us (the customers) to shutup and bite the bullet. So CCP can Bite my bullet of none of my hard earn cash in their bank account. Good Luck to your future ventures CCP, I see you guys going down hill from here!
Rosetterial	Posted - 2008.10.31 09:58:00 - [5248] Just quit the game. Of all that's being said in the thread, CCP ain't gonna revert what's done...
Ezoran DuBlaidd Freedom From Fear Industries	Posted - 2008.10.31 10:20:00 - [5249] Originally by: Rosetterial Just quit the game. Of all that's being said in the thread, CCP ain't gonna revert what's done... except, that they did before.
Tasty Bit Gallente UNITED STAR SYNDICATE	Posted - 2008.10.31 11:08:00 - [5250] Originally by: Lorac Caladon Please don't discuss the forum moderation here. To discuss problems or concerns, please send an e-mail to: [email protected]. Applebabe At least someone from CCP is watching this thread, even if it is only to delete stuff.

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