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MalVortex Reaper Industries Eternal Rapture	Posted - 2008.10.15 09:31:00 - [1] I took the new missile damage formula out for a spin tonight. Whilst I want this to come off as constructive as possible... WTF. Missiles are the new pwn-machine. My test partner was a well skilled missile pilot, test bed was the standard pulsader (MWDII, 2x ODII. Also went through AB test fits for thoroughness). The Formula itself is on crack. I have nooo idea how its getting its numbers, and I observed situations where moving with an AB would actually increase your damage taken over sitting still.. :psyduck: Manticore vs. Interceptor: Manticore 2-3 shots it, depending on precisions being loaded or not. Afterburning significantly reduces DPS done to you, but an afterburning interceptor is just a taaaad bit worthless. Given a range advantage, the Manticore will easily force you out before you ever crawled to him. HML Caracal vs Interceptor: Precision Heavies will literally 2 shot you. Not even joking. Regular T1 Scourge would 3-4 volley you. Newb in Caracal > interceptor. Afterburning didn't even really help with the incoming damage. It was **** either way. AML Caracal vs Interceptor: Mike Tyson versus a crippled kid. T1, Precision, it doesn't matter. 2 shotting intys will be very, very common. I'd encourage others to do their own testing and throw up the results. I'd like to try to get a total picture going of how this is going to shake out.
Kalintos Tyl Minmatar	Posted - 2008.10.15 09:39:00 - [2] doing top speed with vaga 4km/s torrant rage misiles do 55 dmg a hit instead of 65 dmg when mwd is off. Caldari missile spamers era BEGIN. http://dl.eve-files.com/media/0810/lie.jpg guide ninja edited already hidden topic: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&thread
Kalintos Tyl Minmatar	Posted - 2008.10.15 09:58:00 - [3] abing wolf in web is killed by berserker t2 in like 15 sec. With sar t2 on. Yep these are HEAVY drones. Good work ccp. http://dl.eve-files.com/media/0810/lie.jpg guide ninja edited already hidden topic: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&thread
Butter Dog Gallente The Littlest Hobos	Posted - 2008.10.15 10:52:00 - [4] Originally by: Kalintos Tyl abing wolf in web is killed by berserker t2 in like 15 sec. With sar t2 on. Yep these are HEAVY drones. Good work ccp. actually any moving target such as an interceptor (I guess as he was webbed he was still moving a few hundred m/s?) get slaughtered by heavies if they are moving, as the heavies follow them and track with low transversal from behind thats always been the case - I've lost count of the amount of ceptors I've one-volleyed with ogre II's but the missile observations are interesting if tis patch goes through I'm just glad I've got a caldari specced char too, because thats what the new 'i win' button will be in nearly all convievable situations sit still, spam missiles, win ---------- AKA 'Bitter Dog' Failing at everything he does in EvE since '05

CCP Tenitigo	Posted - 2008.10.15 11:15:00 - [5] This is the first iteration of changes with the new missile damage formula. We're still testing missiles internally but wanted to introduce the initial changes to Singularity as soon as they were ready.

Cpt Branko Surge.	Posted - 2008.10.15 11:16:00 - [6] How do you get the numbers, if you don't mind the question? Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
modemel	Posted - 2008.10.15 12:09:00 - [7] Originally by: Butter Dog ...sit still, spam missiles, win Maybe the formula could use some adjusting, but it is about time for Caldari to actually have a shot at anything. Maybe some increased explosion velocity could do.
NeoTheo Dark Materials	Posted - 2008.10.15 12:16:00 - [8] Originally by: Cpt Branko How do you get the numbers, if you don't mind the question? same way most of the new devs get info, they make it up, gawwwd, i want the old guard back. tested on sisi and so far its a joke, and i dont even nano and AM missile spec'd - in other words even though i benafit it still think its stupid. Dark Materials Linkage
Deva Blackfire D00M.	Posted - 2008.10.15 12:21:00 - [9] Fact is: sit still, spam missiles, win is the new game now. Played a bit earlier (LAAAAAAAAAAAAG) and missiles do stupid amounts of damage to all targets. Typical comparison of damage per missile: cruise 45 torp 55 heavy ~70 (thats vs tanked HAC) Well posting it not as "omg you deal only 50 damage per missile!" but as comparison between BS and cruiser weapon types vs cruiser. And looking at DPS - you need quite heavily tanked HAC to tank torpedo raven.
TZeer Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.10.15 13:27:00 - [10] **** yeah!!! Bring it on!! lol
Butter Dog Gallente The Littlest Hobos	Posted - 2008.10.15 13:30:00 - [11] Edited by: Butter Dog on 15/10/2008 13:30:50 i wanted to only see gangs of drakes and falcons roaming 0.0 anyway makes the game more varied and fun edit: if torps can kill a hac, i want to be able to kill an orbiting hac with blasters too please... without a web... seem overpowered? yes, it does... think about that ---------- AKA 'Bitter Dog' Failing at everything he does in EvE since '05
Deva Blackfire D00M.	Posted - 2008.10.15 13:30:00 - [12] Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 15/10/2008 13:31:04 Originally by: Butter Dog i wanted to only see gangs of drakes and falcons roaming 0.0 anyway makes the game more varied and fun More like sniper gangs. All you need is 5 cerbs and 5 ravens and you are safe from all tackle attempts. EDIT: actually only drakes is enough too (half/assault+precissions, half heavies)
Deva Blackfire D00M.	Posted - 2008.10.15 16:35:00 - [13] Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 15/10/2008 16:38:42 Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 15/10/2008 16:35:41 OK more testing: Cerb (240 lock, 220 missile range) vs vaga vaga at 0m/s - 200damage vaga at 3,5km/s - 150 damage/missile So pretty much - vaga is dead either way. Only idea that comes to my mind is injector + shield booster tbh (but mind you i never flown vaga and never will even tho i have skills ;p) cerb vs sader: sader with MWD on (5,2km/s) - got hit for 100+ damage/missile sader turned off MWD - hit for about 20 damage (was doing EM type, so with kin should be around 30-35). those were heavy precission missiles btw. To sum up: 1. speed tanking doesnt exist anymore 2. sig tanking is new "idea" 3. when you have 2 sniper fleets there is no way in hell to close the gap between them except for using covops warpins - but if fleet is aligned it shouldnt be a problem 4. heavy missiles are ultmate all-rounders. On cerb they deal pretty ok damage to tacklers, insane damage to HACs, and good damage to battleships 5. game got dumbed down so any ****** can play - why use webs when you can click f1-f8 and deal damage? And tbh my biggest issue is point 5. Even if some can claim that "nanos are for any idiot" the new gameplay style is for people with IQ of a fungi. You literally dont have to do anything except click f1-f8. If there is lag - target will die. EDIT: and i agree with Butter - remove tracking from guns. As missiles can deal full damage from 0-220km (my cerb) why my zealot cant do the same?
Grim Vandal Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2008.10.15 16:50:00 - [14] speed tanking should be done through low sig a speed ... so you wanna speed tank, fit an AFTERBURNER I hope the devs grasp that and that a missile will do less dmg vs a ABing ship compared to a mwding ship. Greetings Grim
Tac Ginaz The Righteous Few	Posted - 2008.10.15 16:56:00 - [15] Dear Tenitigo, If I may suggest something you guys may have not considered, which is my 'ideal' vision of missiles for this game: Instead of having missiles be 'guaranteed hit' with damage modifiers based on signature size, speed and explosion velocity, have them be that they deliver FULL damage to their targets (be them small or big targets, sitting still or moving at top speed) ... BUT that those missiles can be dodged, intercepted or spoofed. That way, there wont be disadvantage of missiles vs guns because of damage vs flight time and of turret-only ships not having the ability to fire defender missiles. To accomplish this the missiles need to have the following changes: 1- Removal of signature/explosion velocity/speed damage reduction so that the warhead does full damage on impact. 2- Reduction in missile maneuverability to about half of what it is now. 3- Increase in all missile's flight time by twice what it is now. this will increase the range greatly but it will also allow the missile to do a couple of 'passes' at the target that dodged it, creating a much more immersive combat situation. 4- Addition of drone-like AI to the missiles for homing purposes. Note: Torpedoes and Rockets do not have this AI. 5- Add new system to missiles: TRACKING system type (which is what determines their drone-like AI for tracking) #5 would be the biggest change. The introduction of a tracking system will replace the explosion/signature modifier ... so from being 100% guaranteed hit with reduced damage the missile will be full damage IF the missile hits and the chances of the missile hitting will be half based on player skill to dodge and half on the tracking system to hit the target. Tracking systems. Tracking systems are based on 2 things: The missile type (hard-coded into the missile) and the player's setting for said missile before firing (flight behavior). Types of tracking systems found in missiles (race dependent): Slave Guidance : No, not a slave tied to the missile. Slave guidance is named because the missile is 'slaved' to follow the player's currently active target. That is, if you fire the missile while having the active target be a thorax and you switch target to fire your guns at a Crow, the missiles will switch to homing on the Crow. This is the choice of guidance of the Amarr Empire. Friend or Foe: A true fire and forget missile. It will lock onto the closest enemy ship. This system has a drawback however.. if the missile is dodged and another enemy ship becomes 'closer' in proximity to the missile, it will home on that next ship. The player firing these missiles gives up control of the missile's target in exchange for no need to achieve a target lock. This is the missile of choice of the Caldari. Heat Seeker: Target locks and missile is fired. The missile in-flight behavior is simple: it will only approach the target ship from the rear. Simple, effective, but easiest to dodge. The missile of choice of the Minmatar Republic. Image Recognition: Missile is locked and will home onto the ship matching the locked target's hull type. A lower tech variant of the Friend or Foe used by the Caldari. The IR system has the drawback that if dodged, the missile may lock onto the nearest ship of the same hull type.. even if its friendly!
MalVortex Reaper Industries Eternal Rapture	Posted - 2008.10.15 16:58:00 - [16] Originally by: Grim Vandal speed tanking should be done through low sig a speed ... so you wanna speed tank, fit an AFTERBURNER I hope the devs grasp that and that a missile will do less dmg vs a ABing ship compared to a mwding ship. So how are those interceptors coming along? OH WAI- I've been in favor of a new missile damage formula for a long time now. This is not it. Signature radius is too wonky for it to be the deciding factor for missile impact damage. Otherwise you get the situation now where missiles will oneshot target X, and guns can't track it. How...balanced... Not only that, but interceptors lost around 1100m/s with MWD running. Of all possible ships, I cannot see why they lost speed. Its not like they had the EHP to tank a volley, or heavy neuts, or webs, or skilled drones/ASM/HPII....
Tac Ginaz The Righteous Few	Posted - 2008.10.15 17:01:00 - [17] Flight Behavior (set by player by right-clicking launcher..or it can be set as a SCRIPT that can be loaded into the launchers): Long Duration Seeker: Missile trades speed for flight time under this setting. Allows the missile to perform multiple passes at a target and home in for longer periods. Good choice for fast missiles firing on bigger yet maneuverable ships or for the less effective homing types (aka, HEAT seekers). Coordinated Strike: Drone-like AI applied to missiles. Missiles fire from launchers with this setting are linked. Missiles will home but 'orbit' until all missiles with same homing system inside 30km range are within 5km range of each other then they hit the target all at once. A good choice for use against big or less maneuverable ships. Drawback is that defender-equipped ships can intercept the missiles and if used against a maneuverable target, the missiles may run out of flight time before they can coordinate. Standard: Standard homing subroutines. Missile will head straight for the target and attempt to hit it directly as quickly as possible. With these changes and the speed nerf, the missiles will be balanced and will offer a far better combat dynamics.
Deva Blackfire D00M.	Posted - 2008.10.15 17:06:00 - [18] Originally by: Grim Vandal speed tanking should be done through low sig a speed ... so you wanna speed tank, fit an AFTERBURNER I hope the devs grasp that and that a missile will do less dmg vs a ABing ship compared to a mwding ship. You are stupid - plain and simple. Using AB is not speed tanking but "sig" (as in signature radius) tanking. You can get exactly same results by not using AB at all.
Toolivus Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2008.10.15 17:21:00 - [19] Originally by: Grim Vandal speed tanking should be done through low sig a speed ... so you wanna speed tank, fit an AFTERBURNER I hope the devs grasp that and that a missile will do less dmg vs a ABing ship compared to a mwding ship. What happens to a ship with an afterburner? It gets webbed to shit by any ship with an mwd. Once a ship is webbed it is going slowly so it is not mitigating any damage through speed and is just as big as an armour tanked ship so it's not mitigating any damage through sig and doesn't have the tank to back it up. Now's the part where it dies. Speed tanking with an afterburner is not viable unless you have more rapiers and huginns than your opponent.
Mioelnir Minmatar Meltd0wn iPOD Alliance	Posted - 2008.10.15 17:49:00 - [20] Originally by: Grim Vandal speed tanking should be done through low sig a speed ... so you wanna speed tank, fit an AFTERBURNER Done that with a Claw (ceptor with the lowest base signature radius). I have Interceptors 5, so full signature reduction. Plugged in some High-Grade Halo implants (without Omega). Even added an Improved X-Instinct for good measure. Point is, I got shredded to pieces. Caracal or Cerberus with Assault Launchers and Precision Lights, and no tackler will survive 15 seconds anywhere near your gang. Afterburner, MWD, Halos, Snakes, it simply does not matter.
Pyea	Posted - 2008.10.15 19:04:00 - [21] Tac Ginaz if they put your proposed changes in game the server would probably melt. The amount of calculations involved are astronomical.
Grim Vandal Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2008.10.15 21:42:00 - [22] Tac Ginaz: exactly this was tried on the test server (wasnt named sisi back then) by TomB in the year 2004 and the project failed because of Destiny (=physic engine of eve). Destiny simply can NOT handle a miss. Therefor a missile will always hit and therefor we have to fiddle around with this god damn missiles ... btw Tac Ginaz your idea would also work if we wouldnt have a race which not only specialized but which uses missiles as their one and only weapon type = caldari The devs brought themself in a very f.uc.ked up position because they HAD to balance missiles towards weapons which if caldari wouldnt exist would NOT be a problem at all. Whatever, we are here right now years later and caldari wont change. Missiles did full dmg on impact all through 2003 (including beta) ... been there done that... the problem today definately IS the mwd tho... a no brainer module how cute, isnt it ... and people dont grasp that... a shame... simply because I have to fit a certain module on a ship, ... that ship I dont fly because it is in its very essence broken... so the current changes on sisi are if you look at the big picture promising... however it is true that intercepters get murdered... The missile changes need tweaking and the interceptor class needs maybe a further bonus to their reduction of their signature radi only while using a mwd ... but honestly a ceptor or any other shiptype ONLY viable cuz of the mwd is a failed ceptor/ship. Sure to fullfill a certain role you need top speed = mwd BUT again a ship totally useless without ONE certain module is again fail. BTW changes are good for your brain, at age you will thank me. Greetings Grim
Stab Wounds Caldari State Protectorate	Posted - 2008.10.15 22:23:00 - [23] Originally by: Grim Vandal speed tanking should be done through low sig a speed ... so you wanna speed tank, fit an AFTERBURNER I hope the devs grasp that and that a missile will do less dmg vs a ABing ship compared to a mwding ship. QFT. Only person in thread who knows what they are talking about.
Cpt Branko Surge.	Posted - 2008.10.15 23:05:00 - [24] Originally by: Grim Vandal so the current changes on sisi are if you look at the big picture promising... however it is true that intercepters get murdered... The missile changes need tweaking and the interceptor class needs maybe a further bonus to their reduction of their signature radi only while using a mwd ... but honestly a ceptor or any other shiptype ONLY viable cuz of the mwd is a failed ceptor/ship. Sure to fullfill a certain role you need top speed = mwd BUT again a ship totally useless without ONE certain module is again fail. BTW changes are good for your brain, at age you will thank me. Tbh: I see one problem with missile damage - the scaling was done in a crude way - to be exact, the explosion radiuses have been upped across the board, and explosion velocities were brought down, hard, for all missiles. This creates a few effects: - it is impossible to do full damage to a target of your own ship class without a web, preferably 9km scrambler and a target painter. (A gang is a reasonable assumption on BS level. For cruisers not so much, and things like rocket frigates are incredibly hurt by this.) - It nerfs unguided missiles where the sig reduction skill does not apply. Which might be OK for torpedoes which do high enough extra damage to compensate for this, and passable for Heavy Assault Missiles (although there are significantly less reasons to use HAMs now), but it just makes rockets total rubbish. The whole linear damage scaling with signature radius is a problem. The only way to make Torpedoes not do significant damage to frigates is by giving them such a explosion radius that they're unfeasible to use vs battleships without multiple target painters - and if you add multiple target painters, then you're going to kill frigates (again). For one, I don't like the fact that it now requires a target painter to fight other BS. If I do fit that TP, however, I can reasonably gank frigates as well with torpedoes. Also,the whole AB speedtanking business is unviable in any sort of gang settings. Multiple TPs, webs, light drones, etc - they all mean that the only way for a tackler to do its job is for it to outrun missiles (except from specialized ships) and nearly all gun damage (except from specialized ships) + Warrior IIs. Else tacklers are suicide tacklers, and the interceptor class is pointless as you can do it comfortably in a frigate. Might as well save a 15 million loss. So the idea that you should not be de-facto immune to commonly fielded weapons (like, Warrior IIs) because they're the same class as you means that you should become a suicide tackler as soon as we start considering tackling anything except a solo ship (which we'll see less of, since this patch does make it much harder to solo in cruiser/BC/BS hulls). But back on topic, I don't think linear scaling with sig radius can ever produce the results we're looking for (for instance, torps effective vs BS but extremely ineffective vs frigate hulls). Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Col Callahan Caldari Oberon Incorporated Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.10.15 23:32:00 - [25] I support this change, caldari have been the bullshit for pvp and could be soloed in a inty or vaga any day of the week. now the shoe is on the ohter foot. I look forward to being able to kill these nanos. _
Cpt Branko Surge.	Posted - 2008.10.15 23:52:00 - [26] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 15/10/2008 23:52:29 Originally by: Col Callahan I support this change, caldari have been the bullshit for pvp and could be soloed in a inty or vaga any day of the week. now the shoe is on the ohter foot. I look forward to being able to kill these nanos. /facepalm For gangs, caldari are already very good. If you cannot use Caldari in gangs well, then you fail. For solo, Amarr will EAT YOUR FACE. Have you read the part where you cannot do full DPS to targets of your own size with missiles anymore? Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Deva Blackfire D00M.	Posted - 2008.10.16 00:18:00 - [27] Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 16/10/2008 00:18:50 Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 16/10/2008 00:18:43 Originally by: Col Callahan I support this change, caldari have been the bullshit for pvp and could be soloed in a inty or vaga any day of the week. now the shoe is on the ohter foot. I look forward to being able to kill these nanos. Didnt Burn Eden hand your ass over to you on multiple ocassions? And they were using CALDARI ships ! Pretty much they were ok now, going to be overpowered and next in line for nerf.
Strill	Posted - 2008.10.16 00:49:00 - [28] Originally by: Grim Vandal speed tanking should be done through low sig a speed ... so you wanna speed tank, fit an AFTERBURNER I hope the devs grasp that and that a missile will do less dmg vs a ABing ship compared to a mwding ship. But that only works if you start out at close range. If you're 60km from the target then you NEED a MWD in order to get within speedtanking range in time. If you fit an afterburner you just get popped before you can even start to get there.
MalVortex Reaper Industries Eternal Rapture	Posted - 2008.10.16 00:52:00 - [29] Lawls at some of these replies. Seriouslly. Even if an interceptor could sigtank missiles to the same degree of effectiveness that they can speedtank them now, interceptors would still be worthless. Heres why: 1) An afterburning interceptor does ~2.0kms. A MWDing cruiser, w/o speedmods, will do around 1.5kms. You have no speed advantage worth mentioning. 2) The entire point of the interceptor is to get a point, and hold it damn well while backup arrives. Which means you need to be fast, to go get the point. An ABing interceptor is worthless for this roll. 3) Non-missile defenses will own you. Drones of every variety will easily keep pace, turrets will have much better tracking than you at speed, and any ship with a MWD will be able to keep pace. A single MWD burst will cause such a significant orbit change (given that you don't have several times their speed) that they can either juke the point or get you in web range. Either way you have now failed. These changes impact anything small and fast. That includes not only interceptors, but interdictors (no tank and cruiser sized sigradius!), Assault frigates (lololololol), Electronic Attack Frigates, "nano-cruisers" (not that these will even exist anymore), etc. etc. Bombers are the only thing that don't care, because they are busy one shotting everything else on the above list. This change will REMOVE all non-sniping, sub-BC combat from the game (with a few minor exceptions, such as tankrlidges). Even "tanked" HACs have to rely on transversal and maneuvering to dodge the 1k+ DPS of battleships. With missiles, this is now impossible. This is the only logical stance one can take. Everything else is just trolling through blind ignorance.
Ruciza Minmatar The Feminists	Posted - 2008.10.16 01:13:00 - [30] Originally by: MalVortex this is now impossible. For you maybe.

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