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When will GTC sales for isk be banned?

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 4 post(s)
Dikanal	Posted - 2008.10.21 01:12:00 - [91] Originally by: Le Skunk Further running those figures we came to an estimate of CCP earning 3.5 million dollars a year from GTC --> Isk. Yes its completely wrong and out of order for a a developer with a huge technical challenge (single server) that's no doubt astoundingly expensive to need money to maintain and further improve the technology. Where do you think the money for consultation from IBM and Microsoft to develop the hardware and software comes from? half of EVE screams "fix the lag!" but it probably needs massive amounts of investment. Why do you think no other MMO even attempts the whole single shard concept?
Plim Gallente Oursulaert Technology Institute	Posted - 2008.10.21 01:21:00 - [92] Originally by: Dmian Sorry, I'm totally lost here. Are players trying to tell CCP how to run its business? Is this something like going to a McDonald's an telling them "Hey! you said you'd make your food healthier, so the salads are OK but you just need to stop selling hamburgers, you know?" Am I getting this right? No, people are not 'telling CCP how to run its business', but oddly enough the customer base who have an interest in making sure the game works correctly are critically assessing the product. Many people have been loyal members of the EVE community for up to half a decade, so your apparent incredulity at the idea that they should more than passive spectators to CCP policy seems quite absurd. An EVE online divorced from the interests of the players, would not be a place I would like to be. Infact I think it is specifically important for a company such as CCP to listen to the players, because EVE is a niche game, which relies more on customer loyalty than something more mass market like WoW, for example. Please, never ever compare CCP to McDonalds. CCP, despite some of their failings have not (yet) become some large faceless corporation, they have often listened to and engaged with the wants of the customer base and made relevant changes to the benefit of the game. I hope that most of us can agree, that CCP turning into the MMO equivelant of McDonalds would be bad thing indeed. Discouraging people (the people who actually pay for and use the product) from discussing CCP policy is not good for the game. Rudolf: "I was sworn to absolute secrecy by Santa Claus."
Wet Ferret	Posted - 2008.10.21 01:24:00 - [93] Originally by: Dikanal Why do you think no other MMO even attempts the whole single shard concept? They would need to have a world that can actually accommodate all of the players, for starters... But, yeah. These forums seriously need some indicator that the post has ended and the sig has started.
AleRiperKilt	Posted - 2008.10.21 01:39:00 - [94] People want isk People is lazy People buy isk If CCP doesn't sell it, people will get their isk some other way. This is why we got GTC, invention, lvl 4 missions and 0.0 belt farming... to make isk so easy to get RMT becomes irrelevant. --- "I live in Los Angeles, where driving is non-consensual pvp" - Arric Rohr
Siigari Kitawa Gallente The Aduro Protocol	Posted - 2008.10.21 01:41:00 - [95] Originally by: AleRiperKilt People want isk People is lazy People buy isk If CCP doesn't sell it, people will get their isk some other way. This is why we got GTC, invention, lvl 4 missions and 0.0 belt farming... to make isk so easy to get RMT becomes irrelevant. There is a fallacy in your thinking. EVE is small enough almost EVERY instance of isk buying is caught. Because of that, there is no true need for isk buying from CCP anyway. www.siigarikitawa.com

CCP RyanD Caldari C C P	Posted - 2008.10.21 02:04:00 - [96] Originally by: Le Skunk Well not so long ago (april) we had CCP Grimni post in his dev blog warning us of the evils of buying Isk from farmers that Quote: Supply and demand dictates that it would be very difficult for an individual to gather tens of billions of ISK with the secure system and thus game balance will not be upset. Well I'll apologize in advance to my friend Grimni, but you can pretty much take it as a given that when we want to talk about quantified numbers in relationship to the economy (in or out of game) we defer to Dr. EyjoG. We're not so concerned with the amount of ETC sales in any given time period as we are with the amount of ETCs over a period of time, and how that relates to the size of the whole EVE economy. So far, we have not seen anything in the ETC market that concerns us that too much ISK is being exchanged for ETCs in comparison with overall market trends over time. RyanD

Zeba Minmatar Pator Tech School	Posted - 2008.10.21 02:18:00 - [97] Originally by: CCP RyanD We're not so concerned with the amount of ETC sales in any given time period as we are with the amount of ETCs over a period of time, Wat? inappropriate signature. ~WeatherMan
Jethro Jechonias Ki Tech Industries	Posted - 2008.10.21 02:58:00 - [98] Edited by: Jethro Jechonias on 21/10/2008 03:00:35 Originally by: Zeba Originally by: CCP RyanD We're not so concerned with the amount of ETC sales in any given time period as we are with the amount of ETCs over a period of time, Wat? Translation: CCP doesn't care about 1 person trading 10 billion ISK in GTC's. CCP does care about 50,000 people trading 5 trillion ISK in GTC's. If the latter starts to happen we can expect changes, but according to what RyanD has said, CCP does not see the market trending in that direction. Note: reference numbers choosen for convience, they may be orders of magnatude off of what CCP actually conciders to be safe or harmful.
Chaos Incarnate Faceless Logistics	Posted - 2008.10.21 03:00:00 - [99] Edited by: Chaos Incarnate on 21/10/2008 03:04:15 Are you sure? Cause even that makes my head hurt. Couldn't it be the other way around? RyanD, halp _____________________ The unofficial faceless Achura alt of EVE Online
Kahega Amielden Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2008.10.21 03:02:00 - [100] well the idea is that they don't want EVE to center around the GTC trade. They don't want the server basically segregated between ISK earners (GTC buyers) and GTC sellers. As long as the GTC trade remains relatively small (small relative to the whole population of EVE), it should be fine., amirite? Originally by: Catharacta My CNR runs on salvager tears.
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Umbra Synergy	Posted - 2008.10.21 03:05:00 - [101] GTC trade for isk will be banned the exact same moment irritating repeat threads are I promise Applebabe ate my signature :( but the fish hat forgives! Nemotology is the EvE religion of choice!
Chaos Incarnate Faceless Logistics	Posted - 2008.10.21 03:12:00 - [102] Originally by: Tortun Nahme GTC trade for isk will be banned the exact same moment irritating repeat threads are I promise Why do we have to link good things with terrible things in such a way? Can't we have our cake without someone mockingly eating it in front of us while we hunger for delicious cake? _____________________ The unofficial faceless Achura alt of EVE Online
AleRiperKilt	Posted - 2008.10.21 03:42:00 - [103] Originally by: Siigari Kitawa EVE is small enough almost EVERY instance of isk buying is caught. Because of that, there is no true need for isk buying from CCP anyway. There is no need because it is pretty easy to get isk by grinding missions or farming and that is what people asking to nerf lvl4 don't get. The whole idea is to make isk farming so easy buying isk is not worth the risk. --- "I live in Los Angeles, where driving is non-consensual pvp" - Arric Rohr
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Umbra Synergy	Posted - 2008.10.21 03:59:00 - [104] Originally by: Chaos Incarnate Originally by: Tortun Nahme GTC trade for isk will be banned the exact same moment irritating repeat threads are I promise Why do we have to link good things with terrible things in such a way? Can't we have our cake without someone mockingly eating it in front of us while we hunger for delicious cake? because the imp of the perverse obeys moi of course I like griefing humanity, hence I convinced him to make the "cake and eat it too" conundrum Applebabe ate my signature :( but the fish hat forgives! Nemotology is the EvE religion of choice!
Leviathan9 Gallente Royal Hiigaran Navy	Posted - 2008.10.21 07:13:00 - [105] Quote: If you have 10 accounts, and 5 pay for EVE via credit card @ $15 amonth and 5 pay $36 for two months (or $18 per month) you are going to like the people who wind up paying $18 per month better. Dont forget that company's, ie shatteredcrystal etc get a small percentage of that $35. So CCP would probs make around the same as someone paying via credit card. ----------------------------
Volarius D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.10.21 07:19:00 - [106] They should ban GTC's. I remember in a devblog not too long ago, they said they want everyone that plays eve to have the same chances ingame, regardless of real life circumstances. Yet at the moment the richer you are in real life, the more ISK you can buy legally through this GTC system. I know of several people who are loaded with ISK and even one that was able to fund his own titan using GTC's.
Malcanis RuffRyders Eradication Alliance	Posted - 2008.10.21 07:24:00 - [107] Originally by: Le Skunk Edited by: Le Skunk on 21/10/2008 00:59:23 Originally by: Ulasim Originally by: Le Skunk Originally by: CCP Gimmins Supply and demand dictates that it would be very difficult for an individual to gather tens of billions of ISK with the secure system and thus game balance will not be upset. bolded the important part Incorrect. Go look at the 15 pages worth of GTC transactions today. It would be very easy to get 10s of billions as an individual player. its only 20 cards for 10 billion. SKUNK And I say if some nut-bar wants to sell, what now? call it 140-150 cards to buy himself a Titan, then what difference will it really make? There are close to 100 titans in the game now, so he's not going to turn the tide of any major war with it. If he uses it in a minor one then he'll attract the attention of alliances like PL or Tri or Outbreak who will cheerfully go 30 jumps to kill a titan. So he'll get to use his $5500 e-peen maybe 5 or 10 or 12 times then lose it. The only real issue I have with GTC sales is that there's no consequence of selling to ISK farmers. And I'm not sure how that could be fixed anyway.
Harrent Caldari	Posted - 2008.10.21 07:24:00 - [108] Originally by: Plim You are correct. It is illogical that some people can pay for isk with RL currency. But I like to pay for my account with isk There are so many parts of human nature that are illogical and yet completely unavoidable. During the dry spell in the United States they tryed to ban alchohol because they thought it was the root of all voilence, however, they were wrong, violence only increased as gangs grew inspite of the new regulations. Drugs are another such example. Restrict the ability to do something, and it will be done in more vigor than ever. Same concept goes with EVE. You ban ISK / Money trading via an indirect method, you get larger more resilient alliances dedicated to ISK / Money generation. At least this way they can keep track of people who are doing it for fun / game purposes and those who are not. Semper Fi
Lazuran Gallente Aliastra	Posted - 2008.10.21 07:29:00 - [109] Originally by: CCP RyanD The supply & demand in the ETC market is currently transferring ISK for real money at a level we think is harmless. How much would that be? Something like 5000 60d GTCs for about 2.5 trillion ISK per month?
Malcanis RuffRyders Eradication Alliance	Posted - 2008.10.21 07:32:00 - [110] Originally by: Zeba Originally by: CCP RyanD We're not so concerned with the amount of ETC sales in any given time period as we are with the amount of ETCs over a period of time, Wat? In other words, they look at the total ISK value of ETC over time, not the total ISK value for this day or that week. I infer from his post that the total value of ETC trades is not high enough to be considered a significant economic factor. Pulling numbers out of the air: eg there are 90 bill worth of ETC card sales active at this moment, with those sales taking an average of eg 2 days to complete. Thus ETC is worth 45B/day. But the total size of the eve economy is several orders of magnitude larger than 45B/day (I think I recall reading that something like 975 billion ISK is created* every day, never mind what is exchanged.) By way of comparison, you may recall my back-of-an-envelope calculation that a single level 4 hi-sec agent was potentially worth more than 100B/day. *45B for the sake of argument. No idea what the true figure is, but even if it's 5x that much, the argument holds.
Dmian Gallente Gallenterrorisme	Posted - 2008.10.21 08:13:00 - [111] Edited by: Dmian on 21/10/2008 08:14:00 Originally by: Plim ...so your apparent incredulity at the idea that they should more than passive spectators to CCP policy seems quite absurd. An EVE online divorced from the interests of the players, would not be a place I would like to be. Infact I think it is specifically important for a company such as CCP to listen to the players, because EVE is a niche game, which relies more on customer loyalty than something more mass market like WoW, for example... ...Discouraging people (the people who actually pay for and use the product) from discussing CCP policy is not good for the game. So, you are telling me that CCP, the company who created the CSM to have a body of player representatives to discuss players interests, is not listening to the player? Interesting... Are you a CSM candidate? ---- Eve Alpha - The font of Eve - Get it here
Sokratesz Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.10.21 08:18:00 - [112] Edited by: Sokratesz on 21/10/2008 08:19:04 Edited by: Sokratesz on 21/10/2008 08:18:23 Originally by: CCP RyanD Originally by: Le Skunk Well not so long ago (april) we had CCP Grimni post in his dev blog warning us of the evils of buying Isk from farmers that Quote: Supply and demand dictates that it would be very difficult for an individual to gather tens of billions of ISK with the secure system and thus game balance will not be upset. Well I'll apologize in advance to my friend Grimni, but you can pretty much take it as a given that when we want to talk about quantified numbers in relationship to the economy (in or out of game) we defer to Dr. EyjoG. We're not so concerned with the amount of ETC sales in any given time period as we are with the amount of ETCs over a period of time, and how that relates to the size of the whole EVE economy. So far, we have not seen anything in the ETC market that concerns us that too much ISK is being exchanged for ETCs in comparison with overall market trends over time. RyanD Some information on the subject would be nice because as it stands now the situation and your 'threshold' are unknown to us so ccp can pretty much do what they want and not care. For something that affects the entire economy in such a (supposedly) enormous manner, I'd say that is unacceptable. You try and gain legitimacy for certain actions by employing a RL economist but on the other hand have your virtual economy poisoned by something silly as gtc -> isk. You claim to have built a very lifelike and harsh virtual world. GTC->ISK does not fit in there.
Rod Blaine Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.10.21 08:49:00 - [113] Edited by: Rod Blaine on 21/10/2008 08:50:29 Neither would unemployed v employed now would it ? Factors influencing player success ingame are mostly external to the game itself. Time, intelligence, social skills, and yes, wealth. To arbitrarily exclude wealth from that list because of a feeling that including it would be ¦unfair¦ is not a valid argument at all. I feel the same about it as you do, however I recognize that the GTC for isk system is a grandiose improvement over the situation in just about every single other MMO. We should be glad to have it, even if we despise the influence of wealth on gameplay on an emotional basis. Reality > * [center] Old blog
Vaal Erit Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2008.10.21 08:57:00 - [114] Originally by: Sokratesz ... have your virtual economy poisoned by something silly as gtc -> isk. You claim to have built a very lifelike and harsh virtual world. GTC->ISK does not fit in there. OMG is my isk poisoned? Oh noes, where can I get the antidote? Should I go see an isk doctor? Other than online poker/gambling I can't think or many other games where I can reach out and blow up my enemies wallet and pick up some of the pieces and put it in my own. Sounds pretty harsh and lifelike to me. I think if people told the truth, when they lose a ship that they payed real life $$$ for, it hurts. -- http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html
Le Skunk Low Sec Liberators	Posted - 2008.10.21 09:27:00 - [115] Edited by: Le Skunk on 21/10/2008 09:27:04 Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Le Skunk Edited by: Le Skunk on 21/10/2008 00:59:23 Originally by: Ulasim Originally by: Le Skunk Originally by: CCP Gimmins Supply and demand dictates that it would be very difficult for an individual to gather tens of billions of ISK with the secure system and thus game balance will not be upset. bolded the important part Incorrect. Go look at the 15 pages worth of GTC transactions today. It would be very easy to get 10s of billions as an individual player. its only 20 cards for 10 billion. SKUNK And I say if some nut-bar wants to sell, what now? call it 140-150 cards to buy himself a Titan, then what difference will it really make? There are close to 100 titans in the game now, so he's not going to turn the tide of any major war with it. If he uses it in a minor one then he'll attract the attention of alliances like PL or Tri or Outbreak who will cheerfully go 30 jumps to kill a titan. So he'll get to use his $5500 e-peen maybe 5 or 10 or 12 times then lose it. The only real issue I have with GTC sales is that there's no consequence of selling to ISK farmers. And I'm not sure how that could be fixed anyway. Indeed - if he buys one ship. But what if the nut bar uses the isk to pay others to effect the balance of power in the game? You could easily get whole alliances booted out of 0.0 space for the sorts of isk easily accessible via GTC to isk. Or have individual players perma griefed. Or cover the losses from your trade venture which undercut the little guy who spent 3 months working his way up. Or keep buying battleships for your corp at war untill you out resource your enemy corp and they have to leave the area. If the idea is CCP need the revenue it brings in, you may have a point But the idea that GTC->ISK its not affecting anyone in game is a massive lie. Its effecting everyone every day. Oh my rooks been taken in chess, heres my mastercard - ill buy another. Damn, my football team is losing, Ill buy a couple of goals SKUNK
Delichon The First Foundation SOLAR FLEET	Posted - 2008.10.21 09:41:00 - [116] I checked the Skunk's figures, they look correct. About 116 billion traded per day. I am confused on Titan-prices, but is it half a Titan a day or a Titan a day, roughly? About 42 Trillions per year. That's something like 1000 Motherships, if I get the Nyx prices right. Originally by: Le Skunk stuff You are wrong. You can't kill your enemy if you keep suiciding dozens of BSes to kill his 1 BS, just because you have more resources. Suiciding dozens and dozens of BSes will just get your opponents morale high enough to recruit buttload of PVPers and kick YOU out of space. You win by breaking the opponent's will to strugle. By killing him, while denying him kills (through blob, lag or tactics) ------------------------------------------ All nerfs are meant to hurt you personally. They will be nerfing you directly next. EVE A new game every 6 months. (c) Atomos Darksun
Malcanis RuffRyders Eradication Alliance	Posted - 2008.10.21 09:47:00 - [117] Originally by: Le Skunk Edited by: Le Skunk on 21/10/2008 09:27:04 Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Le Skunk Edited by: Le Skunk on 21/10/2008 00:59:23 Originally by: Ulasim Originally by: Le Skunk Originally by: CCP Gimmins Supply and demand dictates that it would be very difficult for an individual to gather tens of billions of ISK with the secure system and thus game balance will not be upset. bolded the important part Incorrect. Go look at the 15 pages worth of GTC transactions today. It would be very easy to get 10s of billions as an individual player. its only 20 cards for 10 billion. SKUNK And I say if some nut-bar wants to sell, what now? call it 140-150 cards to buy himself a Titan, then what difference will it really make? There are close to 100 titans in the game now, so he's not going to turn the tide of any major war with it. If he uses it in a minor one then he'll attract the attention of alliances like PL or Tri or Outbreak who will cheerfully go 30 jumps to kill a titan. So he'll get to use his $5500 e-peen maybe 5 or 10 or 12 times then lose it. The only real issue I have with GTC sales is that there's no consequence of selling to ISK farmers. And I'm not sure how that could be fixed anyway. Indeed - if he buys one ship. But what if the nut bar uses the isk to pay others to effect the balance of power in the game? You could easily get whole alliances booted out of 0.0 space for the sorts of isk easily accessible via GTC to isk. Nah, I don't think you could tbh. People buy ISK for themselves not for others, for one thing. For another, 20 or 30 or 40 bill just doesn't last very long in inter-alliance warfare. That'll buy you out of losing maybe 2-3 biggish fights, or just 1 if it's cap-heavy. But it won't stop you losing any subsequent fights. A large alliance like Razor or BoB will generate that much ISK in a day without thinking. Your GTC magnate can match that kind of ISK generation for a while... till his dollars run out. A decent 0.0 alliance will just keep the ISK rolling in with no particular effort, especially since they're picking up all that nice T2 loot and salvage from the battles you don't care about losing.
Rod Blaine Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.10.21 09:52:00 - [118] Edited by: Rod Blaine on 21/10/2008 09:53:23 A gtc seller has no hope at all of competing with large 0.0 alliances in terms of isk supply. You¦d need to generate dozens of billions of isk each and every day for that. That¦s alot of dollah ! And anyway, in 0.0 alliance warfare isk is next to meaningless. Very heavy sustained cap losses might bleed a good alliance dry eventually, but way before that those loses will have cost him enough in participation to make the isk cost a moot point. [center] Old blog
Max Teranous Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.10.21 10:05:00 - [119] Originally by: Delichon I checked the Skunk's figures, they look correct. About 116 billion traded per day. I am confused on Titan-prices, but is it half a Titan a day or a Titan a day, roughly? About 42 Trillions per year. That's something like 1000 Motherships, if I get the Nyx prices right. To put that figure further into perspective, according to the recent QEN the total trade on the market in eve for the month of December 07 was 80 trillion, or about 2.66 trillion per day. That will have gone up in the past 10 months, but even assuming it hasn't then the GTC trade is under 5%. Once you add contracts, direct trades and taking into account 10 months of growth the percentage is probably ~3%. Not a large percentage, and hence not a big deal IMO. Certainly the advantages that the GTC trade brings is worth it. Max
Delichon The First Foundation SOLAR FLEET	Posted - 2008.10.21 11:48:00 - [120] Originally by: Max Teranous To put that figure further into perspective, according to the recent QEN the total trade on the market in eve for the month of December 07 was 80 trillion, or about 2.66 trillion per day. That will have gone up in the past 10 months, but even assuming it hasn't then the GTC trade is under 5%. Once you add contracts, direct trades and taking into account 10 months of growth the percentage is probably ~3%. Not a large percentage, and hence not a big deal IMO. Certainly the advantages that the GTC trade brings is worth it. Max Ok, that's sounds logical, thanks. I was too lazy to read the most recent economic blog ------------------------------------------ All nerfs are meant to hurt you personally. They will be nerfing you directly next. EVE A new game every 6 months. (c) Atomos Darksun

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