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When will GTC sales for isk be banned?

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 4 post(s)
Sutraa	Posted - 2008.10.20 12:43:00 - [61] I laughed so hard when I read most of the replies to this. Where is the common sense? "He has more money then me, he can buy a GTC an get isk for it" cries the poor. I spent 350 dollars US last month alone for GTC's to get isk. Don't like it, too bad, suck it up an drive on. How much will I spend in the near future, a whole lot more, why? I have a good job an can afford to, are you crying because you don't? I thank you for the laugh, it was great ... Now go farm me my isk, I will have some more GTC's soon! Bwahahahahahaha
Malcanis RuffRyders Eradication Alliance	Posted - 2008.10.20 12:54:00 - [62] Originally by: Feta Solamnia Welcome to a fight that was lost over 2 years ago. When the gtc<->ISK trades were considered at least "grey" area and gm's advised against them I was still whining regularly on the forums to get it fixed. I still remember seeing rod blaine in those threads saying the same stuff. Then one day it became ok to trade them and within a few months the secure method came in. And that was it. I came back lately from an extended break and I was told that a specific person actually paid $6.000 in gtc's to buy his own titan (said person also admitted it to me). The wrongfulness of this thing goes in so many ways (apart from the obvious stupid part) that makes me really sad. Lord2Evil lost his titan fairly quickly. Where's the problem?
iudex Caldari State Protectorate	Posted - 2008.10.20 12:58:00 - [63] Originally by: Supay According to CCP, ghost training was removed as it provided an unfair advantage for some players over others who subscribe to login and actively develop their characters. I refer you to: http://myeve.eve-online.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=2428&tid=1 Quote: This practice upsets the balance of the game, and capsuleers who actively put their time and energy into working on their characters will no longer be unfairly affected by those few who have not. As people flush in cash can afford to buy GTCs and then sell them for isk, this unfairly affects those who cannot. The people benefiting from this are not putting time and energy into working on their characters. So can CCP either please give us a timescale showing how and when they intend to remove this system, or explain in detail why selling GTCs for isk is not considered an unfair and unbalancing part of EVE? You have a valid point, but you also have to see that ghost training didn't benefit anyone except the person who was ghosttraining. GTC sale gets CCP more money. Money that is used for the maintinance and develepment of the game, everyone of us profits from that. Also there are more players around with the GTC trade system, more potential targets to shoot at or play with, and we all like to see Eve flourish and grow. The removal of GTC would drop the ammount of players and the money that CCP has available for game development, which is worse than giving people the opportunity to buy their ingame success with rl currency. _________________________________________ Faction Standings: Serpentis +7.60 // Angel Cartel +7.31 // Minmatar Republic -8.56 // Gallente Federation -9.71
Abrynn Minmatar CCCP INC	Posted - 2008.10.20 13:50:00 - [64] Welllllllll....Ghost training didnt make them money plain and simple. GTC's are bought origanly with money and sold securly through CCP for isk soooooo they are making money either way and with the jacked up GTC prices and only 60 days available they are making more money, Besides you know how hard it is to play thins game on GTC's if they removed them they would lose toooooooo much of the player base as a matter of fact when they made only the 60 days they lost thousands of players so getting rid of them completely would be really bad for them
Skaz Minmatar	Posted - 2008.10.20 13:57:00 - [65] Originally by: Supay According to CCP, ghost training was removed as it provided an unfair advantage for some players over others who subscribe to login and actively develop their characters. I refer you to: http://myeve.eve-online.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=2428&tid=1 Quote: This practice upsets the balance of the game, and capsuleers who actively put their time and energy into working on their characters will no longer be unfairly affected by those few who have not. As people flush in cash can afford to buy GTCs and then sell them for isk, this unfairly affects those who cannot. The people benefiting from this are not putting time and energy into working on their characters. So can CCP either please give us a timescale showing how and when they intend to remove this system, or explain in detail why selling GTCs for isk is not considered an unfair and unbalancing part of EVE? It's an unfair advantage in an unfair world...ethically it should be banned but practically? I haven't been posting for a year or more, I tried to kick the habit but but.... - - PINK PINK PINK PINK
Midnight Firestarter	Posted - 2008.10.20 15:27:00 - [66] Edited by: Midnight Firestarter on 20/10/2008 15:27:55 Option 1 Work hard, earn Money and can afford to buy GTC so I can relax with my family and friends and still have the goods things in Eve. Option 2 Give up work, grind 18 hours a day, have no friends, get divorced, and lose the right to see the kids. I choose option 1
Gamer4liff Caldari Metalworks THE INTERSTELLAR FOUNDRY	Posted - 2008.10.20 16:01:00 - [67] As much as I love EVE, there is no way in hell I'd be able to play it without GTCs, being a college student is not cheap.
Tramp Oline	Posted - 2008.10.20 16:17:00 - [68] Here is the big difference: 1) GTC buying - CCP makes money 2) Ghost training - CCP doesn't make money Gaining an unfair advantage is fine. Gaining an unfair advantage without CCP making money is not.
Evileene Evil Conservative Industries	Posted - 2008.10.20 16:29:00 - [69] CCP is only against "unfair" stuff that doesn't result in revenue. The OP is right, if it were about fairness, then GTC sales would be banned, since they do clearly give players with the cash to spend on them an advantage over those who can't. But CCP after the recent changes makes more money off GTC's than they do a regular subscription so this isn't going to go away. --- Support the economy, cut down a tree and set it on fire.
Turin Caldari Eternity INC.	Posted - 2008.10.20 17:20:00 - [70] Originally by: Supay So can CCP either please give us a timescale showing how and when they intend to remove this system, or explain in detail why selling GTCs for isk is not considered an unfair and unbalancing part of EVE? I can sum this up VERY easily on why it will remain as it is. CCP makes a lot of money off it. Period. Nothing else need be said.

Wet Ferret	Posted - 2008.10.20 20:59:00 - [71] Originally by: Ralara Originally by: Zeba GTC to isk is fine for the moast part. As hard as it is to believe there are quite a few eve players who really don't have the rl cash to fund their playtime and can't sacrifice their scant school budget that supplies them with drugs, alchohol and hookers for the satisfiying yet esoteric enjoyment of an MMO like Eve. However they have time aplenty to grind as much isk as they want as who cares about things like studying and trying to excel at thier school work so they can easily afford to spend isk to fund their addiction. Well then maybe they should get a job to pay for it? If they are unable to do that, maybe they should not play Eve. Been doing it this way for a good four years, I don't think you have any right to tell me or anyone else who's been around that long that "we shouldn't be playing EVE". Get over yourself, you are pathetic. But, yeah. These forums seriously need some indicator that the post has ended and the sig has started.
Gunnanmon Gallente UNITED STAR SYNDICATE R-I-P	Posted - 2008.10.20 21:11:00 - [72] Originally by: sasha baby Edited by: sasha baby on 17/10/2008 21:36:00 the op does have a valid point after those comments by ccp. but it wont ever get changed as ccp makes money with these practices Exactly. And exactly. The Ghost-training vote thread
ponieus the united	Posted - 2008.10.20 21:54:00 - [73] Edited by: ponieus on 20/10/2008 21:55:19 im not reading this whole thread so if its been said already please forgive me. Look at it this way. Ghost training = CCP not making any money and the player is getting something for free = NO MORE SAYS CCP GTC for isk = CCP getting paid = will always be allowed. no company in their right mind will stop a influx of cash if the players are getting what they want. Meaning a legal way to get ahead in the game via isk with RL currency. Its pretty simple if you sit back and look at it. edit: yeah its been said already I refreshes me to know not everyone doesnt see the big picture here. Just another example of a company taking FULL advantage of its customers.
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.10.20 22:28:00 - [74] Originally by: Supay According to CCP, ghost training was removed as it provided an unfair advantage for some players over others who subscribe to login and actively develop their characters. I refer you to: http://myeve.eve-online.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=2428&tid=1 Quote: This practice upsets the balance of the game, and capsuleers who actively put their time and energy into working on their characters will no longer be unfairly affected by those few who have not. As people flush in cash can afford to buy GTCs and then sell them for isk, this unfairly affects those who cannot. The people benefiting from this are not putting time and energy into working on their characters. So can CCP either please give us a timescale showing how and when they intend to remove this system, or explain in detail why selling GTCs for isk is not considered an unfair and unbalancing part of EVE? Of course it's unfair and unbalancing. Much like having multiple accounts. It comes down though, to being the lesser of two evils - Iskfarmers macroing and selling online are worse. -- Crane needs more grid 249km locking?

CCP RyanD Caldari C C P	Posted - 2008.10.20 23:02:00 - [75] Originally by: Supay Or explain in detail why selling GTCs for isk is not considered an unfair and unbalancing part of EVE? This I can do. The difference between selling ISK for real money and selling ISK for ETC is that ETC has a natural limit on the demand side. Unlimited demand for real money ISK has all sorts of really bad effects on the game, and the kind of people that it attracts to service that demand have all kinds of negative effects on the players of the game. If we could wave a magic wand and get rid of everyone who engages in trading ISK for real money, we'd do it, but we'd still keep Secure Trading of ISK for ETC. The natural limit on ETC is playtime. Once a person has accumulated enough ISK to purchase ETC, they no longer need to accumulate ISK for secure trading. Whereas people who are accumulating ISK for real money never reach a limit, and they become 23x7x365 macro runners, and scammers, and all the other vile abusive things that RMT attracts. Once everyone who wants ETCs to play for free has them, the RMT secure trading window closes. And it closes at a fraction of a percent of the volume of ISK for real money. CCP likes the idea that you can play EVE for free via secure trading. We encourage it. Earning enough extra ISK to trade for ETC is a completely viable way to make EVE a free to play game. Getting ISK for trading ETCs allows people to convert real money to ISK in a limited, controlled fashion that doesn't unbalance EVE and turn it into a game where only people who have a lot of disposable income can be important and successful. If a lot of people tomorrow decided to buy ETC and use secure trading, the amount of ISK transferred would not likely change - but the price in ISK for each ETC would go down, a lot. The system has reached a stable point of market equilibrium. And the thing that goes into the EVE economy in secure trading is people playing more EVE. That's good for the whole game - the more players, the better the game experience is for everyone - especially now that StacklessIO and EVE64 have been deployed. Secure trading promotes our #1 goal for EVE: Growth. People who care enough to do the things necessary to accumulate enough ISK to trade for ETC are exactly the kinds of people who make EVE such a fantastic game to play. From our perspective, this is win-win-win. Some people win because they play EVE for free. Some people win because they can convert a limited amount of real money to ISK. And CCP wins because more game time is being sold. Again, the crucial difference is the limit. Unlimited RMT is corrosively bad. Limited RMT for game time is a good thing. The supply & demand in the ETC market is currently transferring ISK for real money at a level we think is harmless. We will continue to monitor it, and if it ever did become a problem we would have to act, but that is unlikely - the system has been running for a long time now and it has shown no signs of degenerating. RyanD

Siigari Kitawa Gallente The Aduro Protocol	Posted - 2008.10.20 23:18:00 - [76] Edited by: Siigari Kitawa on 20/10/2008 23:20:58 Originally by: CCP RyanD CCP likes the idea that you can play EVE for free via secure trading. We encourage it. Earning enough extra ISK to trade for ETC is a completely viable way to make EVE a free to play game. Getting ISK for trading ETCs allows people to convert real money to ISK in a limited, controlled fashion that doesn't unbalance EVE and turn it into a game where only people who have a lot of disposable income can be important and successful. The bottom line though for you is a slightly higher amount of RL $ for an ETC than a credit card. If you have 10 accounts, and 5 pay for EVE via credit card @ $15 amonth and 5 pay $36 for two months (or $18 per month) you are going to like the people who wind up paying $18 per month better. It's a win for you, and a lose for the players in EVE who can't be your game time salesmen, basically. You are rewarding players who have money with ISK, turning them into the game time vendor and not leaving you as the sole vendor as the way to let them play. Also, you say limited RMT is "okay" for everyone. Man, if I want to go out and buy $360 worth of ETCs you are not going to stop me from selling them, making nearly 5,000,000,000 ISK (yes, 5 BILLION) for a few hundred "spare dollars". www.siigarikitawa.com
Gojyu Ever Flow Axiom Empire	Posted - 2008.10.20 23:28:00 - [77] Quote: If a lot of people tomorrow decided to buy ETC and use secure trading, the amount of ISK transferred would not likely change - but the price in ISK for each ETC would go down, a lot. The system has reached a stable point of market equilibrium. This is false. Since your changes of the gtc market, demand vastly, vastly outstrips supply. I could very confidently go out today and buy enough gtc's to build a titan, without much worry of causing a bottoming out of prices, were I so inclined. Your theory about limited isk only works when supply meets, or is very close to demand. Unfortunately, the global credit crisis, combined with your choosing to eliminate 30 and 90 day gtc's have thrown this out of whack. Your killing ghost training may remove a fair chunk of demand, but that remains to be seen
Dire Radiant	Posted - 2008.10.20 23:33:00 - [78] Originally by: CCP RyanD Originally by: Supay Or explain in detail why selling GTCs for isk is not considered an unfair and unbalancing part of EVE? This I can do. Then please do answer the OP's question rather than deflect it with your RMT vs Secure ETC sales. Reposted for you. Originally by: Supay According to CCP, ghost training was removed as it provided an unfair advantage for some players over others who subscribe to login and actively develop their characters. I refer you to: http://myeve.eve-online.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=2428&tid=1 Quote: This practice upsets the balance of the game, and capsuleers who actively put their time and energy into working on their characters will no longer be unfairly affected by those few who have not. As people flush in cash can afford to buy GTCs and then sell them for isk, this unfairly affects those who cannot. The people benefiting from this are not putting time and energy into working on their characters. So can CCP either please give us a timescale showing how and when they intend to remove this system, or explain in detail why selling GTCs for isk is not considered an unfair and unbalancing part of EVE?
w0rmy Black Reign The Five	Posted - 2008.10.20 23:58:00 - [79] Originally by: CCP RyanD Originally by: Supay Or explain in detail why selling GTCs for isk is not considered an unfair and unbalancing part of EVE? Because we make more money from it. Long forgotten are the days when CCP was more than just a money sucking company, out to line the pockets of its investers. Long forgotten are the days when we actually cared more about providing a quality product than we did about owning Lamborghini's. We've dropped our Open Source approach to bussiness and taken apon ourselves a Microsoft approach. Your opinions mean less to us than your money. RyanD Fixed it for you. Originally by: CCP Oveur I'm very sorry w0rmy, I beg your forgiveness. Originally by: Dianabolic I was never sworn to secrecy, w0rmy, sorry to dissappoint you.
Chaos Incarnate Faceless Logistics	Posted - 2008.10.21 00:08:00 - [80] Edited by: Chaos Incarnate on 21/10/2008 00:10:02 The last four posts are a case in point as to why CCP don't and shouldn't ever consider posting about contentious issues, as this thread should have died an ignoble death ages ago CCP Whoever > This is a reasoned argument as to why CCP hold this position Player 1 > WHAT?! lolol CCP don't know their own game Player 2 > YOU'RE A BUNCH OF STUPID BASTARDS Player 3 > SCREW YOU I WANT MY FREE STUFF Player 4 > WHY ARE YOU POSTING IF YOU'RE SUCH AN IDIOT OMFG!!!1 Me > Emorage quit already and send me your stuff _____________________ The unofficial faceless Achura alt of EVE Online

Aloriana Jacques Amarr Royal Amarr Institute	Posted - 2008.10.21 00:09:00 - [81] Originally by: Siigari Kitawa The bottom line though for you is a slightly higher amount of RL $ for an ETC than a credit card. I see someone was never taught what a markup is. Game time retails at 15$ a month. The cards cost more not because CCP is making extra money, but because retailers actually need to made money off it. If CCP would lower the price of a card to even it out at the 30$ line when sold in stores, they would in fact be losing money because it takes money to print and distribute those cards to retailers, plus they get a price markup for profit. - - - Aloriana Jacques - Skill Sheet
Le Skunk Low Sec Liberators	Posted - 2008.10.21 00:11:00 - [82] Edited by: Le Skunk on 21/10/2008 00:11:17 Originally by: CCP RyanD Unlimited RMT is corrosively bad. Limited RMT for game time is a good thing. The supply & demand in the ETC market is currently transferring ISK for real money at a level we think is harmless. We will continue to monitor it, and if it ever did become a problem we would have to act, but that is unlikely - the system has been running for a long time now and it has shown no signs of degenerating. RyanD Well not so long ago (april) we had CCP Grimni post in his dev blog warning us of the evils of buying Isk from farmers that Quote: Supply and demand dictates that it would be very difficult for an individual to gather tens of billions of ISK with the secure system and thus game balance will not be upset. This I immediately proved wrong by spending 5 mins researching the days GTC transactions which topped 90 billion. Over 9 times his "very difficult" maximum limit, and, I think we will all agree, 90 billion a day would make it very easy to "upset" the game balance. Further running those figures we came to an estimate of CCP earning 3.5 million dollars a year from GTC --> Isk. This is the real reason you want to keep it going, and drum roll THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH IT!! Just come out with it and say you can afford not to have GTC to Isk.(looking at your recent accounts this is doubly true) SKUNK FIGURES: Figures
Demtalin le'Mercennaire The Arrow Project Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.10.21 00:19:00 - [83] Because more people would probably move to isk sellers. I feel better knowing the money for GTC sales goes to CCP to support the game, rather than some isk seller who isn't putting it back into the game. -------- Billy Jean is not my lover
Siigari Kitawa Gallente The Aduro Protocol	Posted - 2008.10.21 00:20:00 - [84] Originally by: Aloriana Jacques Originally by: Siigari Kitawa The bottom line though for you is a slightly higher amount of RL $ for an ETC than a credit card. I see someone was never taught what a markup is. Game time retails at 15$ a month. The cards cost more not because CCP is making extra money, but because retailers actually need to made money off it. If CCP would lower the price of a card to even it out at the 30$ line when sold in stores, they would in fact be losing money because it takes money to print and distribute those cards to retailers, plus they get a price markup for profit. You're not telling me you aren't thinking of credit card processing fees, are you? www.siigarikitawa.com
Le Skunk Low Sec Liberators	Posted - 2008.10.21 00:24:00 - [85] Originally by: Demtalin le'Mercennaire Because more people would probably move to isk sellers. I feel better knowing the money for GTC sales goes to CCP to support the game, rather than some isk seller who isn't putting it back into the game. No. Hes putting it into the mouths of his children SKUNK
Chaos Incarnate Faceless Logistics	Posted - 2008.10.21 00:36:00 - [86] Originally by: Le Skunk No. Hes putting it into the mouths of his children SKUNK Which is nice and all, but there are plenty of legal activities one could do to support one's children _____________________ The unofficial faceless Achura alt of EVE Online
Ulasim Art of War Exalted.	Posted - 2008.10.21 00:39:00 - [87] Originally by: Le Skunk Originally by: CCP Gimmins Supply and demand dictates that it would be very difficult for an individual to gather tens of billions of ISK with the secure system and thus game balance will not be upset. bolded the important part
Dmian Gallente Gallenterrorisme	Posted - 2008.10.21 00:55:00 - [88] Sorry, I'm totally lost here. Are players trying to tell CCP how to run its business? Is this something like going to a McDonald's an telling them "Hey! you said you'd make your food healthier, so the salads are OK but you just need to stop selling hamburgers, you know?" Am I getting this right? ---- Eve Alpha - The font of Eve - Get it here
Le Skunk Low Sec Liberators	Posted - 2008.10.21 00:57:00 - [89] Edited by: Le Skunk on 21/10/2008 00:59:23 Originally by: Ulasim Originally by: Le Skunk Originally by: CCP Gimmins Supply and demand dictates that it would be very difficult for an individual to gather tens of billions of ISK with the secure system and thus game balance will not be upset. bolded the important part Incorrect. Go look at the 15 pages worth of GTC transactions today. It would be very easy to get 10s of billions as an individual player. its only 20 cards for 10 billion. SKUNK
Kitchie Gallente Kitchie's Logistics and Marketing Corp	Posted - 2008.10.21 00:58:00 - [90] Hmmm.... No secure GTC selling system. Then I could buy GTCs for ISK on the grey market without the time being automatically added to my account and so could then sell them for Real Money! A relatively easy way to turn my ISKies into real cash! Somehow I don't think CCP are going to see that option quite so positively so I'm guessing that secure ISK/GTC is here to stay (thank god!).



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