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Should i take my learning skills to V?

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Jozef Meurtrier	Posted - 2004.06.28 08:36:00 - [1] I'm currently contemplating on taking all my learning skills to V, does it really make as much of a difference as some people make it out to be? I've spoken to people in help channel about this, some say IV is enough others say V speeds up training times greatly.. please help me decide.
Jozef Meurtrier	Posted - 2004.06.28 08:46:00 - [2] Well i read Hardin's excellent sticky, and although that helped lots i'd still like some opinions on this.
Aeon Yakati	Posted - 2004.06.28 08:52:00 - [3] Originally by: Jozef Meurtrier Well i read Hardin's excellent sticky, and although that helped lots i'd still like some opinions on this. If you gonna stick around (6+ months), it's worth it. Otherwise you will regret it if you haven't, in 6+months. And besides, sooner or later when advanced learning skills are released, level 5 will become a prerequisite most likely. It would be a waste not grabbing the bonus you could get by training now instead of then.
Kalast Raven	Posted - 2004.06.28 11:08:00 - [4] I recommend maxing learning as soon as reasonably possible. ------- K. Raven
The Enslaver	Posted - 2004.06.28 11:36:00 - [5] Getting L5 in the learning skills is a must in my opinion ;) Very useful. -------- FireFoxx80: If you think you can do a better job, go find yourself a datacentre to host a box, get a copy of Visual Studio, and STFU.
JackDonkey	Posted - 2004.06.28 17:39:00 - [6] Edited by: JackDonkey on 28/06/2004 17:40:52 If you train them to level 5 then you'll never have to look back and say "what if I wouldv'e trained them to level 5" Unless you're the type that is going to look back and say "Man I should have just kept them at level 4" you're an intaki, you should be high intelligence, I'd go for it.
X'Alor	Posted - 2004.06.28 18:47:00 - [7] If your planning on staying then yes. if your not planning on staying past 6 monthes then don't bother past 3. if your going to train learning five......your better off training intell to 4 first, then memory to 4 second. it will help train learning to 5 faster. then go back and get intel 5 and memory 5 and then finish off perception and willpower to 5 as well. it might be a total pain in the neck now but it does pay off in the long run........the sooner you commit to staying for 6 monthes or longer, then commit to all the learning skills as soon as you can.
Basic Miner	Posted - 2004.06.29 22:05:00 - [8] I will definately train em up to lvl 5 as soon as CCP crew states that they will make bigger clones... seems to me that ppl have alredy reached this limit... So... what if it just a big waste of skill points that take up space on your clone... _______________________________________ [Insert catchy/cool phrase here]
Sinist	Posted - 2004.06.30 00:32:00 - [9] I would recommend training up to level 5. Not only do you not have to worry about it again, you get +1 extra attribute in each field. So if you have learning 5 and you trsin say analytical mind from level 4 to level 5 you will get +2 attribute points instead of +1 you get normally. Attributes are rather important since we are constantly training skills. Couple this when you get your implants you will be ahead days or weeks in skill trianing in just a month.
Blackpool	Posted - 2004.06.30 01:24:00 - [10] Edited by: Blackpool on 30/06/2004 01:44:38 How about some facts so you can make your own decision: If it takes you 6 days to train learning to level 5 then it will take 300 days of training skills before you save the amount of time you spent training just learning level 5. Assuming all of your stats are say 12: (Total stat including learning not really a possible number since base 11 + learning 5 = 12.1 but serves fine for the example) And you have trained learning to level 5: It will take roughly 8.13 Days to train a single stat skill from level 4 to level 5. It will take you 146 Days of training something with that skill as a primary to make up the time spent training the stat to level 5. If you train all of your skills up to level 5 with that same assumed 12 stats across the board. It will take you 40.65 Days (8.13 5) to train all 5 stats. It will take you 443.5 Days of training skills to make up the time spent training the stats skills from level 4 to level 5. Formulas from this board that the numbers are based on: Time to train a skill in minutes == (points needed - current points) / ( primary attribute + 1/2 secondary attribute) Atrribute numbers in this case are the real number not the rounded number you see on your character sheet. To calculate the real number its: (the base from you character creation + ranks of the skill for that stat + any implants) ( your learning skill * .02) Edit: forgot to include learning 5 in the stats 12 calculations.
Sinist	Posted - 2004.06.30 02:10:00 - [11] Edited by: Sinist on 30/06/2004 02:22:17 Edited by: Sinist on 30/06/2004 02:20:04 That formula doesnt take into account the lost skill training time for the regular skills if you only do lvl 4 and not 5. So every single skill will take longer to train and it will add up and actually reduce that 433 days to ALOT less overall skill training time. Your math is wrong also. For trianing level 5 you get +2 attribute points not +1. You will have alot more then 12 attribute points in each attribute. Time saved from a rank 1 skill with leanring and the respected leanring skills at level 5 saves almost a day. Which equals out to roughly 40 days to train the learning skills. 40 days of training level 5 skills to earn it back. You save about in total 1/2 day from level 1-4 from level 4-5. So you save 1 and 1/2 days in total training a skill up from level 1 through 5. 40 divided by 1 and 1/2 equals out to 26 days to earn back the 40 days you spent training the learning skills roughly. After the 26 days any skill trianing you do is in the positive of what you would of accomplished with just level 4 learning skills. You know it also could be 26*5 I dont know. Either way it is a farcry from 400+ days. The logics supplied in that post were very incomplete. If you really want to know the exact numbers ill write it out, I just did this in my heads.
Blackpool	Posted - 2004.06.30 02:38:00 - [12] Edited by: Blackpool on 30/06/2004 03:29:07 For training to level 5 you get +1 point. Its +1 point per level no matter what. Learning is added after the fact and is +.02% per level of learning. So in effect learning 5 gives you 1.1 point per point of stat skill. Only having Learning 4 gives you 1.08 points per point of stat skill. You character sheet always displays the truncated (not rounded) stat. So if you stat is 10.8 it shows as 10. So at times it will appear that you gain 2 points but in reality you have only gained 1 + the fraction needed to push you over. All calculation for time to train are based off the real number not the truncated one you see on your char sheet. Please test the forumla I gave above. It has been reference in many posts here and works out exactly to the same amount of time displayed on your character sheet in game. All of my calculations are based of the difference between having skills at level 4 versus level 5. If your stat is at 12.1 (11 base + learning 5 giving you 12.1) and you train the stat skill from 4 to 5, your stat raises to 13.2. If you then do the same with the secondary stat you have a combined 13.2 + 1/2 of 13.2 = 19.8 points as the divisor in the time to train calcualtion versus the 18.15 with the skills at 4. That gives you a savings of 9% in training time. From then on you save 9% on all skills with those 2 stats as primary and secondary. So if it took you 16 Days to train those 2 stats from 4 to 5. Then it is 16 Days / .09 = 177.77 Days before you save that original 16 Day investment. This means that after that 177.77 Days if you have only trained skills with those 2 stats as primary and secondary. You will be at the same exact skill level as somebody else with only learning 4 and stats to 4 would be. But you will also have the learning skills to 5. This is the break even point. At this point you then start showing the profit from your original investment. On the simpler side if you examine training just the skill learning from 4 to 5. This is a savings of .02% thereafter. So to calculate the time it will take you to break even on training learning from 4 to 5. Divide the time your character sheet says it takes you to train learning 4 to 5 by .02 If this is 6 days it takes 300 days to break even. After 300 days you start to show a benefit versus somebody who just stuck with learning 4. It doesn't matter what other skills (currently existing) you train learning 4 to 5 only saves you .02% Even if you install implants its still .02% versus if you only have learning 4.
Sinist	Posted - 2004.06.30 03:38:00 - [13] Edited by: Sinist on 30/06/2004 03:47:08 negative. Electronics with no skills = 11 days 20 hours. Electronics with all level 1 learning skills = 10 days 13 hours 253 Electronics with all level 2 learning skills = 9 days 11 hours Electronics with all level 3 learning skills = 8 days 13 hours Electronics with all level 4 learning skills = 7 days 18 hours Electronics with all level 5 learning skills = 7 days 2 hours 170 Difference between level 4 and 5 = 16 hours Training all Learning skills to level 5 if you trianed them in this order = Analytical Mind = 11 days 20 hours Instant Recall = 10 days 3 hours Learning = 7 days 21 hours Iron Will = 7 days 2 hours Empathy = 7 days 2 hours Total = 44 days exactly Time to break even and gain positive affect of trianing from level 4 to level 5 in learning skills = 66 days exactly on the mark. Time to break into the positive if you trained only learning skills up to 5 before anything else and then started trianing normally = 13 days. beleive it or not it is unrefutable math. because other people post things does not mean it is right. You cannot argue this with me. You will be ignored. I suggest you do the math your own. Learn mathematical logics. And once you can do this then you will understand where I come from. Take it like you want, beleive me or not. It does not matter. This post is 100% accurate as I did the pencil math. oh and btw this is with a character with 10 attributes starting out. I did not factor in his attribute gains but it would only lessen the time not increase. I also did not factor in the time it takes to train learning from 4 to 5 seperatly in the example of the difference of learning 4 and 5 skills. The end result will be even lower as well, turning the 66 days into something more in line with the 14 days in the other example. You were thinking too simple to say that it owuld take 400+ days. It only takes weeks or more to be gaining more Skill points. I hope this ends this long standing forum myth. If you still beleive the other numbers then I hope you dont work with math in the real world else we could all be doomeed!
Blackpool	Posted - 2004.06.30 12:26:00 - [14] Edited by: Blackpool on 01/07/2004 14:55:01 Edited by: Blackpool on 30/06/2004 12:48:28 So from your own example: Electronics with all level 4 learning skills = 7 days 18 hours Electronics with all level 5 learning skills = 7 days 2 hours Difference between level 4 and 5 = 16 hours So it took you 7 days 2 hours to save 16 hours. ( spent 170 hours to save 16) Savings of 9% So to save 7 full days at that rate it will take you: 7 days = 168 Hours. 7 days 2 hours to save 16 Hours: 168 Hours / 16 = 10.5 10.5 * 7 Days 2 Hours = 1764 Hours to save 168 Hours. So 1764 Hours = 73.5 Days. Training your learning skills to 4 saves massive amounts of time. Training them from 4 to 5 takes much longer to pay off since the original time investment is so high. It takes about 1 to 1.5 days to train a learning skill from 0 to 4. It takes an Additional 5 to 7 days to train that skill to 5 from 4. So if I train up all of the learning skills to 4 and you train up all of the learning skills to 5. We both start at the same time. It takes me 1.5 Days * 6 Skills (5 stats + learning) = 9 Days to train all of the skills to level 4. It takes you the same amount of time to train to 4. It then takes you an additional 42 days to train everything to level 5. ( the 44 from your original estimate - 9 +7 for the 5th stat you missed - perception/spatial awareness.) So during that 44 Days I'm training other skills. Once you are done you train skills 9% faster then I do since you have level 5 skills and I only have 4s. After 466 Days you catch up those 42 days worth of training (9% of 466 is 41.94)
Larno	Posted - 2004.07.01 08:18:00 - [15] @ Everyone.... MEMORY is the primary attribute of learning skills so you should train Instant Recall to level X before training Analytical Mind to level X. :P
Larno	Posted - 2004.07.01 08:18:00 - [16] @ Everyone.... MEMORY is the primary attribute of learning skills so you should train Instant Recall to level X before training Analytical Mind to level X. :P
Blackpool	Posted - 2004.07.01 14:52:00 - [17] Ok do you agree that it takes 42 days after training all of the Learning skills to 4 to get them all to Learning 5? Do you understand that the difference between learning skills trained to 4 and learning skills trained to 5 is only a savings of 9%? If you can agree with these statements then my conclusion that it takes 466 Days you catch up those 42 days worth of training is mathmatically sound. You can easily prove to yourself that the difference in training time between all learning skills at 4 and all learning skills at 5 is roughly ~9% (it varies a bit depending on your base stats). To do this download the excel spreadsheet linked in other places on this forum and set it up with your stats. Then put in some training goals and examine the difference in training time with learning 4 versus learning 5. Examine my math and mathmatically prove it wrong instead of accusing me of sniffing white board markers.
Blackpool	Posted - 2004.07.01 14:52:00 - [18] Ok do you agree that it takes 42 days after training all of the Learning skills to 4 to get them all to Learning 5? Do you understand that the difference between learning skills trained to 4 and learning skills trained to 5 is only a savings of 9%? If you can agree with these statements then my conclusion that it takes 466 Days you catch up those 42 days worth of training is mathmatically sound. You can easily prove to yourself that the difference in training time between all learning skills at 4 and all learning skills at 5 is roughly ~9% (it varies a bit depending on your base stats). To do this download the excel spreadsheet linked in other places on this forum and set it up with your stats. Then put in some training goals and examine the difference in training time with learning 4 versus learning 5. Examine my math and mathmatically prove it wrong instead of accusing me of sniffing white board markers.
Loud Bob	Posted - 2004.07.01 15:09:00 - [19] Edited by: Loud Bob on 01/07/2004 15:11:55 It seems to me a pointless argument as everyone has thier own views on the benefits. The overall factor really is how high your attributes are and what skills they effect. As the majority of skills require either memory or intellegence then training these to lvl 5 will be a benefit. The higher the attributes the less time to train a skill which requires said attribute. Therefore the less time it will take to make up the time lost for training the learning skill which effects said attribute to lvl 5. Saying that training all learning skills to lvl 5 will reduce your learning time by 9% is daft. This will not be true no matter how much you try to explain it. Arguing about it is pointless as the only definate way to proove it would be to train every single skill available to lvl 5 with identical characters, one which has all learning at lvl 5 the other at lvl 4. This is due to the fact that each skills training time is effected by different attributes. Then the result would only count for that character as someone else will have different attributes to start with. In other words, at the end of the day the benefits will only be appreciated if your going to be playing this game for well over a year. Make up your own mind...............everyone else has.
Loud Bob	Posted - 2004.07.01 15:09:00 - [20] Edited by: Loud Bob on 01/07/2004 15:11:55 It seems to me a pointless argument as everyone has thier own views on the benefits. The overall factor really is how high your attributes are and what skills they effect. As the majority of skills require either memory or intellegence then training these to lvl 5 will be a benefit. The higher the attributes the less time to train a skill which requires said attribute. Therefore the less time it will take to make up the time lost for training the learning skill which effects said attribute to lvl 5. Saying that training all learning skills to lvl 5 will reduce your learning time by 9% is daft. This will not be true no matter how much you try to explain it. Arguing about it is pointless as the only definate way to proove it would be to train every single skill available to lvl 5 with identical characters, one which has all learning at lvl 5 the other at lvl 4. This is due to the fact that each skills training time is effected by different attributes. Then the result would only count for that character as someone else will have different attributes to start with. In other words, at the end of the day the benefits will only be appreciated if your going to be playing this game for well over a year. Make up your own mind...............everyone else has.
Ki Shodan	Posted - 2004.07.01 16:23:00 - [21] Originally by: Jozef Meurtrier Well i read Hardin's excellent sticky, and although that helped lots i'd still like some opinions on this. and did you get some oppinions? -- my current auctions
Ki Shodan	Posted - 2004.07.01 16:23:00 - [22] Originally by: Jozef Meurtrier Well i read Hardin's excellent sticky, and although that helped lots i'd still like some opinions on this. and did you get some oppinions? -- my current auctions
Blackpool	Posted - 2004.07.01 19:26:00 - [23] Ok I'm an arguer I admit it but: Please note I am always comparing the difference between the skills at 4 and the skills at 5. Training from 0 to 4 has a much quicker benifit since the training time is low and benefit from the first point trained is larger then the one after it. Since the time to train a skill is a simple calculation and the formula is known. Time to train a skill in minutes == (points needed - current points) / ( primary attribute + 1/2 secondary attribute) Since stats range from about a low of 4 to 30. The following table is true: 1st collumn is your primary stat +1/2 your secondary. That is what determines how fast you learn a skill. 2nd collumn is the % savings by increasing the primary 1 point. 1/(collumn 1) 3rd collumn is the % savings by increasing both the primary and secondary stat 1 point. 1.5/(collumn 1) 6.016.67%25.00% 6.515.38%23.08% 7.014.29%21.43% 7.513.33%20.00% 8.012.50%18.75% 8.511.76%17.65% 9.011.11%16.67% 9.510.53%15.79% 10.010.00%15.00% 10.59.52%14.29% 11.09.09%13.64% 11.58.70%13.04% 12.08.33%12.50% 12.58.00%12.00% 13.07.69%11.54% 13.57.41%11.11% 14.07.14%10.71% 14.56.90%10.34% 15.06.67%10.00% 15.56.45%9.68% 16.06.25%9.38% 16.56.06%9.09% 17.05.88%8.82% 17.55.71%8.57% 18.05.56%8.33% 18.55.41%8.11% 19.05.26%7.89% 19.55.13%7.69% 20.05.00%7.50% 20.54.88%7.32% 21.04.76%7.14% 21.54.65%6.98% 22.04.55%6.82% 22.54.44%6.67% 23.04.35%6.52% 23.54.26%6.38% 24.04.17%6.25% 24.54.08%6.12% 25.04.00%6.00% 25.53.92%5.88% 26.03.85%5.77% 26.53.77%5.66% 27.03.70%5.56% 27.53.64%5.45% 28.03.57%5.36% 29.53.39%5.08% 30.03.33%5.00% So the higher your stats the less effect there is from adding one more point. The first 4 points you train up of a stat have a large effect, so training the learning skills to 4 is well worth the time invested. But training a stat skill from 4 to 5 only gains you an additional 4-8% for average stats. Training both stats skills for a particular skill gives a combined savings of 7-12% for a skill. So if you train all of you stat skills to 5 any skill you train has the a 7-12% savings. Thus I can say that training all learning skills from 4 to 5 results in an average cost savings of 9% on your skill training.
Blackpool	Posted - 2004.07.01 19:26:00 - [24] Ok I'm an arguer I admit it but: Please note I am always comparing the difference between the skills at 4 and the skills at 5. Training from 0 to 4 has a much quicker benifit since the training time is low and benefit from the first point trained is larger then the one after it. Since the time to train a skill is a simple calculation and the formula is known. Time to train a skill in minutes == (points needed - current points) / ( primary attribute + 1/2 secondary attribute) Since stats range from about a low of 4 to 30. The following table is true: 1st collumn is your primary stat +1/2 your secondary. That is what determines how fast you learn a skill. 2nd collumn is the % savings by increasing the primary 1 point. 1/(collumn 1) 3rd collumn is the % savings by increasing both the primary and secondary stat 1 point. 1.5/(collumn 1) 6.016.67%25.00% 6.515.38%23.08% 7.014.29%21.43% 7.513.33%20.00% 8.012.50%18.75% 8.511.76%17.65% 9.011.11%16.67% 9.510.53%15.79% 10.010.00%15.00% 10.59.52%14.29% 11.09.09%13.64% 11.58.70%13.04% 12.08.33%12.50% 12.58.00%12.00% 13.07.69%11.54% 13.57.41%11.11% 14.07.14%10.71% 14.56.90%10.34% 15.06.67%10.00% 15.56.45%9.68% 16.06.25%9.38% 16.56.06%9.09% 17.05.88%8.82% 17.55.71%8.57% 18.05.56%8.33% 18.55.41%8.11% 19.05.26%7.89% 19.55.13%7.69% 20.05.00%7.50% 20.54.88%7.32% 21.04.76%7.14% 21.54.65%6.98% 22.04.55%6.82% 22.54.44%6.67% 23.04.35%6.52% 23.54.26%6.38% 24.04.17%6.25% 24.54.08%6.12% 25.04.00%6.00% 25.53.92%5.88% 26.03.85%5.77% 26.53.77%5.66% 27.03.70%5.56% 27.53.64%5.45% 28.03.57%5.36% 29.53.39%5.08% 30.03.33%5.00% So the higher your stats the less effect there is from adding one more point. The first 4 points you train up of a stat have a large effect, so training the learning skills to 4 is well worth the time invested. But training a stat skill from 4 to 5 only gains you an additional 4-8% for average stats. Training both stats skills for a particular skill gives a combined savings of 7-12% for a skill. So if you train all of you stat skills to 5 any skill you train has the a 7-12% savings. Thus I can say that training all learning skills from 4 to 5 results in an average cost savings of 9% on your skill training.
Namarus	Posted - 2004.07.01 19:45:00 - [25] Originally by: Blackpool If you can agree with these statements then my conclusion that it takes 466 Days you catch up those 42 days worth of training is mathmatically sound. not too long before I break even with my invested learning time, and start getting ahead. Nothing to see here .... move along.
Namarus	Posted - 2004.07.01 19:45:00 - [26] Originally by: Blackpool If you can agree with these statements then my conclusion that it takes 466 Days you catch up those 42 days worth of training is mathmatically sound. not too long before I break even with my invested learning time, and start getting ahead. Nothing to see here .... move along.
Sinist	Posted - 2004.07.01 21:07:00 - [27] It is wrong though. You actually receive benefits in very little time. Not over a year. After the said time is when you start showing you have more skill points as someone who didnt train the learning skills. A person who trains his learning skills starts to have more skill points right around the time I said and gains benefits over someone who had not. Your math is wrong. My numbers might not be 100$ on the dot accurate but it is a rough estimate. And I did not add the attributed I kept ttem as if they were always 10 of each. edit: trolling removed - Sherkaner
Sinist	Posted - 2004.07.01 21:07:00 - [28] It is wrong though. You actually receive benefits in very little time. Not over a year. After the said time is when you start showing you have more skill points as someone who didnt train the learning skills. A person who trains his learning skills starts to have more skill points right around the time I said and gains benefits over someone who had not. Your math is wrong. My numbers might not be 100$ on the dot accurate but it is a rough estimate. And I did not add the attributed I kept ttem as if they were always 10 of each. edit: trolling removed - Sherkaner
Blackpool	Posted - 2004.07.01 22:13:00 - [29] The difference between having all 6 learning skills at 4 and all 6 learning skills at 5 is 1264470 skill points. So you have to have that many more skill points then me before you have made up the investment in taking the learning skills from 4 to 5. The question here is not if you have 100 more skill points then me. It is if you want to have over a month+ of skill points (1,264,470 points) invested in learning or if you want them in Spaceship Command or Industry skills.... The average character gains about 900,000 points per 30 days. You need to make up that 1,264,470 point investment you made into learning before you have the same amount of points distributed among the other skills on your character as I do. You will make up that 1,264,470 points at about 81,000 points per month. So in 15.6 months you will have the same skills and you will have all 6 learning skills at 5. So if you plan on playing for a year and 1/3: Then by all means train the learning skills to 5.
Blackpool	Posted - 2004.07.01 22:13:00 - [30] The difference between having all 6 learning skills at 4 and all 6 learning skills at 5 is 1264470 skill points. So you have to have that many more skill points then me before you have made up the investment in taking the learning skills from 4 to 5. The question here is not if you have 100 more skill points then me. It is if you want to have over a month+ of skill points (1,264,470 points) invested in learning or if you want them in Spaceship Command or Industry skills.... The average character gains about 900,000 points per 30 days. You need to make up that 1,264,470 point investment you made into learning before you have the same amount of points distributed among the other skills on your character as I do. You will make up that 1,264,470 points at about 81,000 points per month. So in 15.6 months you will have the same skills and you will have all 6 learning skills at 5. So if you plan on playing for a year and 1/3: Then by all means train the learning skills to 5.

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