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Sinist
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Posted - 2004.07.01 23:37:00 -
[31]
Edited by: Sinist on 01/07/2004 23:41:57
I dont need 1.2 million more skill points then you. I only need 1.
You look at time and how much skill point you have at athat point in time.
Example we both have 6 months old accounts. I trained my learning skills first up to level 5. You trained your up to 4 and then you started training fun stuff. I would have more skill points then you after 6 months and it would be significant.
edit: trolling removed - Sherkaner
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Sinist
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Posted - 2004.07.01 23:37:00 -
[32]
Edited by: Sinist on 01/07/2004 23:41:57
I dont need 1.2 million more skill points then you. I only need 1.
You look at time and how much skill point you have at athat point in time.
Example we both have 6 months old accounts. I trained my learning skills first up to level 5. You trained your up to 4 and then you started training fun stuff. I would have more skill points then you after 6 months and it would be significant.
edit: trolling removed - Sherkaner
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Blackpool
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Posted - 2004.07.01 23:49:00 -
[33]
I'm saying that if we both started a new character on the same day with the same stats and now had 6 month old characters.
You having trained to all learning skills at 5 and me to all learning skills at 4.
You would have about 500,000 more skill points then I would. But those 500,000 skill points and 700,000 of there friends on your character sheet would be tied up in your learning skills.
Where as on my character sheet I would have those 700,000 points in skills in a different category such as industry so that I could have production efficiency 5 already and be building stuff at cost.
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Blackpool
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Posted - 2004.07.01 23:49:00 -
[34]
I'm saying that if we both started a new character on the same day with the same stats and now had 6 month old characters.
You having trained to all learning skills at 5 and me to all learning skills at 4.
You would have about 500,000 more skill points then I would. But those 500,000 skill points and 700,000 of there friends on your character sheet would be tied up in your learning skills.
Where as on my character sheet I would have those 700,000 points in skills in a different category such as industry so that I could have production efficiency 5 already and be building stuff at cost.
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WhiteTiger
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Posted - 2004.07.01 23:52:00 -
[35]
Sorry the math isn't that borked, you just don't understand. It is true that once you train a learning skill you can obtain skill points quicker right away, however that is all the learning skill does for you - they don't give you any other benefit in the game, so skillpoints invested in learning skills don't really count as productive skill points in my opinion, they are more of long term investment points.
Training all the learning skills to lvl 5 requires an investment of 1,536,000 skill points.
Training all the learning skills to lvl 4 only requires 271,530 skill points.
This is a difference of 1,264,470 skill points.
This means if I quit at lvl 4 I can dump around 1.26 M skills points into useful skills that let me mine, build, fly ships, etc. Someone training to lvl 5 must suffer with poor skills while they train to learn faster. The payback time is the amount of time it takes to make up this 1.26 M skillpoints. This figured by the difference in training speed with lvl 4 and lvl 5 skills. This difference depends on what the starting attributes are but is around 120-140 pts/hr so the payback time is around 375 - 440 days.
 Originally by: Sinist
It is wrong though. You actually receive benefits in very little time. Not over a year.
After the said time is when you start showing you have more skill points as someone who didnt train the learning skills.
A person who trains his learning skills starts to have more skill points right around the time I said and gains benefits over someone who had not. Your math is wrong. My numbers might not be 100$ on the dot accurate but it is a rough estimate. And I did not add the attributed I kept ttem as if they were always 10 of each.
edit: trolling removed - Sherkaner
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WhiteTiger
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Posted - 2004.07.01 23:52:00 -
[36]
Sorry the math isn't that borked, you just don't understand. It is true that once you train a learning skill you can obtain skill points quicker right away, however that is all the learning skill does for you - they don't give you any other benefit in the game, so skillpoints invested in learning skills don't really count as productive skill points in my opinion, they are more of long term investment points.
Training all the learning skills to lvl 5 requires an investment of 1,536,000 skill points.
Training all the learning skills to lvl 4 only requires 271,530 skill points.
This is a difference of 1,264,470 skill points.
This means if I quit at lvl 4 I can dump around 1.26 M skills points into useful skills that let me mine, build, fly ships, etc. Someone training to lvl 5 must suffer with poor skills while they train to learn faster. The payback time is the amount of time it takes to make up this 1.26 M skillpoints. This figured by the difference in training speed with lvl 4 and lvl 5 skills. This difference depends on what the starting attributes are but is around 120-140 pts/hr so the payback time is around 375 - 440 days.
Originally by: Sinist
It is wrong though. You actually receive benefits in very little time. Not over a year.
After the said time is when you start showing you have more skill points as someone who didnt train the learning skills.
A person who trains his learning skills starts to have more skill points right around the time I said and gains benefits over someone who had not. Your math is wrong. My numbers might not be 100$ on the dot accurate but it is a rough estimate. And I did not add the attributed I kept ttem as if they were always 10 of each.
edit: trolling removed - Sherkaner
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WhiteTiger
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Posted - 2004.07.02 00:15:00 -
[37]
One thing to consider on whether to go to lvl 5 on a learning skill is to look at what other skills you want to learn. The only purpose of the learning skills is to make you learn faster, however only the learning skill itself and two of the attrib. skills count for learning any given skill. If you train an attrib. skill to lvl 5 then don't train any skills that use that attribute you have basically wasted your training time.
The best example right now is Empathy which gives Charisma. Right now Charisma is a primary attribute for the Social skills and secondary for Corp management and Leadership. If you goal is to be miner or non-leader fighter type then training Empathy to a high level is pointless. However Intelligence and Perception are key attributes that are used on many usefull skills for these professions, so training these learning skills is much more helpful.
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WhiteTiger
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Posted - 2004.07.02 00:15:00 -
[38]
One thing to consider on whether to go to lvl 5 on a learning skill is to look at what other skills you want to learn. The only purpose of the learning skills is to make you learn faster, however only the learning skill itself and two of the attrib. skills count for learning any given skill. If you train an attrib. skill to lvl 5 then don't train any skills that use that attribute you have basically wasted your training time.
The best example right now is Empathy which gives Charisma. Right now Charisma is a primary attribute for the Social skills and secondary for Corp management and Leadership. If you goal is to be miner or non-leader fighter type then training Empathy to a high level is pointless. However Intelligence and Perception are key attributes that are used on many usefull skills for these professions, so training these learning skills is much more helpful.
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Green Leaner
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Posted - 2004.07.02 07:43:00 -
[39]
ok, i think everyones math here is correct. only problem is that sinist is basing his idea on if he has more skill points then the person that did not train them up to 5 then he would have made the training time up. which is not true. while you have those extra 1mil in learning skills others have used them to get skills that they can put to use(space command, gunnery, etc).
all that aside i would recommend everyone to get there learning skills to lvl5 so you can train the advanced learning skills (if they ever come out).
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Green Leaner
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Posted - 2004.07.02 07:43:00 -
[40]
ok, i think everyones math here is correct. only problem is that sinist is basing his idea on if he has more skill points then the person that did not train them up to 5 then he would have made the training time up. which is not true. while you have those extra 1mil in learning skills others have used them to get skills that they can put to use(space command, gunnery, etc).
all that aside i would recommend everyone to get there learning skills to lvl5 so you can train the advanced learning skills (if they ever come out).
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Sherkaner
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Posted - 2004.07.02 10:18:00 -
[41]
Please respect that to any given topic, different people may have different views and opinions.
Everyone is free to state his/her opinion and support that opinion with rational arguments, but posts in the forum of "You are all wrong and I am right because I say so" are trolling and will be removed.
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Sherkaner
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Posted - 2004.07.02 10:18:00 -
[42]
Please respect that to any given topic, different people may have different views and opinions.
Everyone is free to state his/her opinion and support that opinion with rational arguments, but posts in the forum of "You are all wrong and I am right because I say so" are trolling and will be removed.
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Loud Bob
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Posted - 2004.07.02 10:21:00 -
[43]
Hear Hear!!!
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Loud Bob
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Posted - 2004.07.02 10:21:00 -
[44]
Hear Hear!!!
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CmdoColin
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Posted - 2004.07.02 14:51:00 -
[45]
So if I get my learning skills to 5, I need to play for over a year and a half to get the time back for non-learning/doing stuff skills.
/me goes and changes subcription time/length muttering
Audita et altera pars |
CmdoColin
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Posted - 2004.07.02 14:51:00 -
[46]
So if I get my learning skills to 5, I need to play for over a year and a half to get the time back for non-learning/doing stuff skills.
/me goes and changes subcription time/length muttering
Audita et altera pars |
Namarus
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Posted - 2004.07.02 15:10:00 -
[47]
Looking at the maths Blackpool is correct when he states that it would take about 466 days to recover the invested time.
There are a few important questions to ask yourself is this one.
1. Will I be unhappy that I trained those skills up to level 5 if I quit the game in less than 466 days time?
If you are going to be unhappy, then train them. If you would not give a damn because you would have quit the game I would then say don't train them.
2. Will I be unhappy that I didn't train those skills up to level 5 and I'm still playing eve after 466 days?
If you are going to be unhappy, train those skills, if you are going to be happy then don't.
It's as simple as that.
Nothing to see here .... move along. |
Namarus
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Posted - 2004.07.02 15:10:00 -
[48]
Looking at the maths Blackpool is correct when he states that it would take about 466 days to recover the invested time.
There are a few important questions to ask yourself is this one.
1. Will I be unhappy that I trained those skills up to level 5 if I quit the game in less than 466 days time?
If you are going to be unhappy, then train them. If you would not give a damn because you would have quit the game I would then say don't train them.
2. Will I be unhappy that I didn't train those skills up to level 5 and I'm still playing eve after 466 days?
If you are going to be unhappy, train those skills, if you are going to be happy then don't.
It's as simple as that.
Nothing to see here .... move along. |
Sinist
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Posted - 2004.07.02 22:56:00 -
[49]
sorry but you guys are wrong.
heh i am not trying to troll its just sarcasm. anyways i dont care if you think it takes 466 days to earn back the invested time. i know that i have more skill points very early on becuase i trained my learning to level 5. all i care about is that big fat total skill points number on my character sheet. not wrong mathetmatical logic and formula about how learning skills dont count towards skill points and all this 1 year nonsense.
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Sinist
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Posted - 2004.07.02 22:56:00 -
[50]
sorry but you guys are wrong.
heh i am not trying to troll its just sarcasm. anyways i dont care if you think it takes 466 days to earn back the invested time. i know that i have more skill points very early on becuase i trained my learning to level 5. all i care about is that big fat total skill points number on my character sheet. not wrong mathetmatical logic and formula about how learning skills dont count towards skill points and all this 1 year nonsense.
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StinkFinger
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Posted - 2004.07.02 23:32:00 -
[51]
You're missing the point sinist.
Blackpool is calculating the time needed to recover the initial investment of skillpoints spent on those level 5 learning skills. The time needed is directly related to the % difference in learning speed achieved via getting those skills from level 4 to 5.
Best way to calculate that is by taking the amount of time needed to train them from 4 to 5 and dividing this total by the amount saved, on average, by training the skills dependent on the various learning skills.
What you're emphasizing is the fact that you'll have more skill points with lvl 5 in your learning skills at a certain point when compared to another character of the same age. Which is a valid point, but your non learning skills will be, in general, of a lower level until a certain amount of time elapsed.
Then, after a certain amount of time, you will overtake characters of the same age as you with lvl 4 in all their learning related skills. This certain amount of time is, according to blackpool (and anyone who can add and divide) approxiamately 460 days.
Hope that clears it up.
--
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StinkFinger
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Posted - 2004.07.02 23:32:00 -
[52]
You're missing the point sinist.
Blackpool is calculating the time needed to recover the initial investment of skillpoints spent on those level 5 learning skills. The time needed is directly related to the % difference in learning speed achieved via getting those skills from level 4 to 5.
Best way to calculate that is by taking the amount of time needed to train them from 4 to 5 and dividing this total by the amount saved, on average, by training the skills dependent on the various learning skills.
What you're emphasizing is the fact that you'll have more skill points with lvl 5 in your learning skills at a certain point when compared to another character of the same age. Which is a valid point, but your non learning skills will be, in general, of a lower level until a certain amount of time elapsed.
Then, after a certain amount of time, you will overtake characters of the same age as you with lvl 4 in all their learning related skills. This certain amount of time is, according to blackpool (and anyone who can add and divide) approxiamately 460 days.
Hope that clears it up.
--
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WhiteTiger
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Posted - 2004.07.03 00:32:00 -
[53]
CmdoColin - This 460 day payout is for training ALL of the learning skills to lvl 5. Payouts for training only selected skills is somewhat less. In my opinion training the charimsa skill to level 5 will be waste for most people, but the other skills can be more worthwhile if you plan to play for a while.
Sinist - If all you want is to have the highest skillpoint total then you are correct that you need to train to level 5 right away. However this is NOT what the majority of players are interested in - They want the most points in useful fields like gunnery, spaceship command, engineering, navigation ... they want to fly around and do stuff not just sit in the station training.
I think to "win" using Sinist's logic, the best strategy is:
start a Gallente-Intaki-Reborn-University of Caille-Biology-Cybernetics character
Put 3 attrib points to Mem and 2 to Int on creation.
Then twink the character by giving them a mem and intel implant
after that train up the mem, int, learning skills in the optimum sequence
once they hit lvl 5 continue to train any skill that has mem. as a primary attribute and int. as secondary. This is mainly the other learning skills and the industry skills.
I think this should give you the most overall skill points per time possible... but there could be other ways I missed. Just keep in mind that with this "winning" strategy you will be hopelessly outmatched in any combat engagement.
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WhiteTiger
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Posted - 2004.07.03 00:32:00 -
[54]
CmdoColin - This 460 day payout is for training ALL of the learning skills to lvl 5. Payouts for training only selected skills is somewhat less. In my opinion training the charimsa skill to level 5 will be waste for most people, but the other skills can be more worthwhile if you plan to play for a while.
Sinist - If all you want is to have the highest skillpoint total then you are correct that you need to train to level 5 right away. However this is NOT what the majority of players are interested in - They want the most points in useful fields like gunnery, spaceship command, engineering, navigation ... they want to fly around and do stuff not just sit in the station training.
I think to "win" using Sinist's logic, the best strategy is:
start a Gallente-Intaki-Reborn-University of Caille-Biology-Cybernetics character
Put 3 attrib points to Mem and 2 to Int on creation.
Then twink the character by giving them a mem and intel implant
after that train up the mem, int, learning skills in the optimum sequence
once they hit lvl 5 continue to train any skill that has mem. as a primary attribute and int. as secondary. This is mainly the other learning skills and the industry skills.
I think this should give you the most overall skill points per time possible... but there could be other ways I missed. Just keep in mind that with this "winning" strategy you will be hopelessly outmatched in any combat engagement.
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Nikkoli
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Posted - 2004.07.03 00:37:00 -
[55]
Also something to keep in mind, if you have say 17 in memory and 15 in int but only 7 in perception.... you will gain FAR more from raising spatial awareness to 5 than someone with perception 17 and memory 7.....
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Nikkoli
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Posted - 2004.07.03 00:37:00 -
[56]
Also something to keep in mind, if you have say 17 in memory and 15 in int but only 7 in perception.... you will gain FAR more from raising spatial awareness to 5 than someone with perception 17 and memory 7.....
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Sinist
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Posted - 2004.07.03 03:12:00 -
[57]
Edited by: Sinist on 03/07/2004 19:05:26
I understand what you guys are trying to say. I understand your logic. I respectfully dont agree though.
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Sinist
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Posted - 2004.07.03 03:12:00 -
[58]
Edited by: Sinist on 03/07/2004 19:05:26
I understand what you guys are trying to say. I understand your logic. I respectfully dont agree though.
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Muaddid
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Posted - 2004.07.03 07:10:00 -
[59]
dont forget advanced learning skills 
On vacations (need a new sig too) |
Muaddid
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Posted - 2004.07.03 07:10:00 -
[60]
dont forget advanced learning skills
On vacations (need a new sig too) |
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