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Bellum Eternus
Gallente
Death of Virtue
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Posted - 2008.10.21 10:03:00 -
[1]
Not everyone hops on SISI every time there is a new patch and picks it's bones for changes and tweaks. However, some of us do and I thought I'd fill the rest of you Eve players in on what's coming down the pipe...
Disclaimer: yes, the exact changes and stats are always subject to change, but what is on SISI now will be within 5-10% of what ends up on TQ so the observations are valid.
How the speed changes are going to affect you-
**Generally speaking**, all ships within their class (cruiser, BC, BS etc.) will have much less deviation between their top speeds when you encounter them in combat due to the flat speed increase of all different types of MWDs. All speeds have been reduced across the board, save for frigs, and this means that range as a defense is even more pronounced. If you start far away from someone, it's going to take at least 50% more time to cover the same distance after the patch, if not more. This makes the differential between long and short ranged gangs a larger factor to consider when designing tactics.
Due to the MWD changes, you're going to see a LOT of best named mwds fit instead of T2. Expect a huge market crash for high end MWDs, as they just have a reduced cap bonus which is pretty worthless, particularly on battleships, and compounding the issue is their heavy fitting requirements with both grid and CPU.
Neutralizers are your friend. If you're in a battleship you had better be fitting at *least* one heavy neutralizer, if not two. Otherwise you'll be fairly defenseless against cruisers and most certainly frigs. The web nerf is a get out of jail free card for these classes of ships when engaging a battleship. This doesn't just apply to blaster ships- all BS are being reduced in effectiveness across the board. Cruise missiles and torps are going to be far less effective against cruisers after the patch. You're going to need heavy neuts to break cruiser tanks and hold them still.
Battlecruisers are the new black. With reduced effectiveness against smaller targets presented by battleships, battlecruisers will be more effective against both cruisers and frigs and against battleships themselves, due to the use of medium sized weapons and their better tracking and signature resolution. Additionally, with the reduction in speed tanking effectiveness, Battlecruisers will also be able to go toe to toe with HACs, if not outclass them all together. There will always be niche roles for HACs, don't get me wrong, but I think that the age of the Battlecruiser is on the horizon.
Bellum Eternus
[Vid] L E G E N D A R Y COLLECTION
Inveniam viam aut faciam. |
Bellum Eternus
Gallente
Death of Virtue
|
Posted - 2008.10.21 10:03:00 -
[2]
*reserved*
Bellum Eternus
[Vid] L E G E N D A R Y COLLECTION
Inveniam viam aut faciam. |
Bellum Eternus
Gallente
Death of Virtue
|
Posted - 2008.10.21 10:04:00 -
[3]
*reserved*
Bellum Eternus
[Vid] L E G E N D A R Y COLLECTION
Inveniam viam aut faciam. |
Malcanis
RuffRyders
Eradication Alliance
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Posted - 2008.10.21 10:21:00 -
[4]
So Cerbs will be awesome.
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Shaemell Buttleson
Euphoria Released
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Posted - 2008.10.21 10:24:00 -
[5]
Excellent post for someone who can't get onto sisi.
Just one question. Why have Torps and Cruise been changed with reduced effect against the smaller ships? The reason I ask is the fact they were never buffed to deal with the smaller or faster ships anyway.
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Jakooni
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Posted - 2008.10.21 10:31:00 -
[6]
My Rokh... will be even slower?
... 
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Malcanis
RuffRyders
Eradication Alliance
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Posted - 2008.10.21 10:33:00 -
[7]
 Originally by: Jakooni
My Rokh... will be even slower?
...
Rokh is getting a big agility boost tho
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Jakooni
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Posted - 2008.10.21 10:33:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Jakooni
My Rokh... will be even slower?
...
Rokh is getting a big agility boost tho
Well at least someone cares about it...
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FlameGlow
Legio Octae
Rebellion Alliance
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Posted - 2008.10.21 10:36:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Shaemell Buttleson
Just one question. Why have Torps and Cruise been changed with reduced effect against the smaller ships? The reason I ask is the fact they were never buffed to deal with the smaller or faster ships anyway.
Well it was because they pwnd everything once the ships were slowed down. CCP changed missile damage formula completely btw, making it possible to hit for full damage even targets faster then explosion velocity(if their signature is big enough); plus it never really becomes 0(unless missile doesn't even hit)
_____________
I don't care what is nerfed, as long as it's not my "undock" button. |
Zephyr Rengate
Caldari
dearg doom
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Posted - 2008.10.21 10:37:00 -
[10]
Ouch
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Tzar'rim
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Posted - 2008.10.21 10:39:00 -
[11]
Was on Sisi a few days ago and missiles hurt like a mofo while I was flying an AB Claw, so it really does seem as if we're going back to the missile age.
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Bellum Eternus
Gallente
Death of Virtue
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Posted - 2008.10.21 10:40:00 -
[12]
To answer some replies-
Cerbs will indeed be godly. Seriously. Particularly because the top speeds of all the ships that can close range and cause it trouble will be reduced quite a bit. And it'll tear speed fit ships apart. See also: Drake.
Ravens being 'nerfed' when they were never 'buffed': meaning what? That all other ships were buffed and now nerfed? I'm not sure what that means, but here's the gist of it: cruise/torps are being rebalanced to cause less damage to player's cruisers/frigs, and as a result, this affects their performance vs. NPCs as well.
Right now when it comes to running missions there is the Raven, and then there is everything else. Turret ships have a horrible time projecting DPS at long range and have a miserable time killing smaller ships with their main weapons at close range. Now I think that the Raven will be running into similar problems that turret based ships have been experiencing from the start. Some may see it as a huge problem, I see it as a balance change to even things out.
Slower Rokh? Well not really. I mean, yeah, it's slower, *but* the Rokh was already extremely slow to begin with, and on a percentage basis, it's one of the least nerfed BS in terms of overall speed reduction. And besides, if speed is the most important factor to you while flying a BS, you're doing it wrong if you're using a Rokh. 
Bellum Eternus
[Vid] L E G E N D A R Y COLLECTION
Inveniam viam aut faciam. |
Zephyr Rengate
Caldari
dearg doom
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Posted - 2008.10.21 10:41:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Tzar'rim
Was on Sisi a few days ago and missiles hurt like a mofo while I was flying an AB Claw, so it really does seem as if we're going back to the missile age.
Well I can fly a sacrilege and cerberus, so i'm not fully screwed. 
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Malcanis
RuffRyders
Eradication Alliance
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Posted - 2008.10.21 10:47:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Zephyr Rengate
Originally by: Tzar'rim
Was on Sisi a few days ago and missiles hurt like a mofo while I was flying an AB Claw, so it really does seem as if we're going back to the missile age.
Well I can fly a sacrilege and cerberus, so i'm not fully screwed.
That was my thought also. Sniper zealot should also still be damb nice... Eagle looking as good as ever (heh). Ishtar will prolly still be workable... Deimos is fscked, but it was anyway. Muninn, meh. Vaga... oh well.
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SuckySycky5dolla
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Posted - 2008.10.21 10:52:00 -
[15]
Knowing that Bellum is on Sisi, Decon is safe. MINING OP!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XxqrFEjDswE
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fivetide humidyear
Gallente
EXCESS10N
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Posted - 2008.10.21 10:53:00 -
[16]
nicely written summary.
if the age of the battlecruiser is upon us (i agree it is too) do you think one of the side effects will be to un-intentionally give the slight boost to Command ships thats been needed?
the astarte will suffer like the deimost, but the absolution and sleipnir might just do very well out of the changes on SISI.
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Tzar'rim
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Posted - 2008.10.21 10:54:00 -
[17]
I'm wondering about BS combat. Seems as if there'll be a revival for the Tempest. Rack of 650's, 2 large neuts and a double web.
Any ideas?
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Lady Aja
Caldari
Ore Mongers
Black Hand.
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Posted - 2008.10.21 11:00:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Bellum Eternus
*reserved*
Murder One?
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Bellum Eternus
Gallente
Death of Virtue
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Posted - 2008.10.21 11:04:00 -
[19]
Originally by: fivetide humidyear
nicely written summary.
if the age of the battlecruiser is upon us (i agree it is too) do you think one of the side effects will be to un-intentionally give the slight boost to Command ships thats been needed?
the astarte will suffer like the deimost, but the absolution and sleipnir might just do very well out of the changes on SISI.
Not really TBH. I mean, yeah, they'll be better in comparison to battleships now that they're going to have issues with smaller ships, but if you just write off all the fleet ships as combat ineffective and look at the Abso, Nighthawk, and Sleipnir (forget the Astarte, it's gonna be stillborn after the next patch), the tier two BCs can do 90% of what the CSs can do, at half the cost or less.
If you want to be pimp and fly expensive stuff and be primary all the time then command ships are your bag, but after the patch I don't see the Nighthawk out performing the Drake by much, The Harbinger hits almost as hard as the Abso, and the Sleipnir isn't as dramatic with the reduced speeds.
Bellum Eternus
[Vid] L E G E N D A R Y COLLECTION
Inveniam viam aut faciam. |
murder one
Gallente
Invincible Reason
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Posted - 2008.10.21 11:08:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Lady Aja
Originally by: Bellum Eternus
*reserved*
Murder One?
What?
[07:13:55] doctorstupid2 > what do i train now?
[07:14:05] Trista Rotnor > little boys to 2
Fleet Combat Ships |
Bellum Eternus
Gallente
Death of Virtue
|
Posted - 2008.10.21 11:12:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Tzar'rim
I'm wondering about BS combat. Seems as if there'll be a revival for the Tempest. Rack of 650's, 2 large neuts and a double web.
Any ideas?
That's what I have fit on SISI at the moment... flexible, versatile and can still hold it's own vs. other BS. Phoon is really brutal as well. And the Maelstrom is shaping up to be an awesome anti-Falcon ship.
People complain about Minmatar all day long, but I just don't see it.
Bellum Eternus
[Vid] L E G E N D A R Y COLLECTION
Inveniam viam aut faciam. |
Meylota LeFey
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.10.21 11:14:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Bellum Eternus
Edited by: Bellum Eternus on 21/10/2008 10:15:39
The reign of the Raven as the defacto PVE ship in Eve may be coming to an end. Because cruise missiles and torps will be reduced in effectiveness vs. cruisers and frigs, Ravens may have a harder time burning through missions than they do now. I'm not a mission running expert with respect to Ravens, but I'd be very interested to hear from someone who is, who has tested their mission running setups on SISI to see how well Ravens perform.
I haven't tested it on SiSi, but I don't see much changing for the Raven in PvE -- Cruise missiles already suck vs frigs, so I always just sic my drones on them. Seriously. . . if I kill all the Cruiser and bigger sized things in a mission, I simply reload my launchers and wait for the drones to finish the frigs. Launching cruises at them is a complete waste.
Cruise missiles also aren't really that good vs cruisers either, though they're not completely terrible. They will generally take 3-4 volleys, and the "elite" versions can take as long to kill as a BS due to higher resists. As a result, I'm perfectly happy to let my drones kill cruisers, if I am shooting something bigger. And if I'm shooting a cruiser, then adding my drones to my missile stream is a huge asset, and especially versus the the "elite" cruisers.
Mission BC's never take more than 3 volleys of cruises. Usually they only take 2. It will be interesting to see if this changes and actually makes BC's a concern in a mission due to not dying so easily anymore.
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Lars Lodar
Suicidal Tendencies Ltd
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Posted - 2008.10.21 11:18:00 -
[23]
Thank you for all the time and work you put into this informative piece.
The proposed changes seem reasonable but I'm really curious how missiles are going to turn out once this hits TQ. Hopefully some caldari ships will be more viable for pvp.
As long as no drastic changes happen to my Drakeypoo, I think I'll survive.
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Haks'he Lirky
Burning Bright Inc.
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Posted - 2008.10.21 11:21:00 -
[24]
I am very excited about these changes and I look forward to seeing them live.
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Jali Prince
Minmatar
JellyBeans
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Posted - 2008.10.21 11:41:00 -
[25]
I am not crying yet, but as a mission person, I will be on the test server by the end of the week then!
I only have mediocre missile skills, so this could hurt alot! if the raven/cruise thing does occur.
Hopefully I will remember to do this, i work i clean i sleep must find time to play! and let you know
Dark Entropy What's your poison?
Life is chocolate |
Bellum Eternus
Gallente
Death of Virtue
|
Posted - 2008.10.21 11:42:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Meylota LeFey
Originally by: Bellum Eternus
Edited by: Bellum Eternus on 21/10/2008 10:15:39
The reign of the Raven as the defacto PVE ship in Eve may be coming to an end. Because cruise missiles and torps will be reduced in effectiveness vs. cruisers and frigs, Ravens may have a harder time burning through missions than they do now. I'm not a mission running expert with respect to Ravens, but I'd be very interested to hear from someone who is, who has tested their mission running setups on SISI to see how well Ravens perform.
I haven't tested it on SiSi, but I don't see much changing for the Raven in PvE -- Cruise missiles already suck vs frigs, so I always just sic my drones on them. Seriously. . . if I kill all the Cruiser and bigger sized things in a mission, I simply reload my launchers and wait for the drones to finish the frigs. Launching cruises at them is a complete waste.
Cruise missiles also aren't really that good vs cruisers either, though they're not completely terrible. They will generally take 3-4 volleys, and the "elite" versions can take as long to kill as a BS due to higher resists. As a result, I'm perfectly happy to let my drones kill cruisers, if I am shooting something bigger. And if I'm shooting a cruiser, then adding my drones to my missile stream is a huge asset, and especially versus the the "elite" cruisers.
Mission BC's never take more than 3 volleys of cruises. Usually they only take 2. It will be interesting to see if this changes and actually makes BC's a concern in a mission due to not dying so easily anymore.
Well... this is exactly the kind of feedback I was asking for in the OP. I don't use the Raven for missions so I really don't have any first hand experience with it on SISI. At least not at the maximum skill levels of normal mission runners.
Anyway, I was simply speculating, so it's nice to have some info from someone who is well versed with a Raven. Any chance you could hop on SISI and try it out and give us a detailed report? Installing the test server is really easy, just check out the info in the Game Design section of the forum.
Bellum Eternus
[Vid] L E G E N D A R Y COLLECTION
Inveniam viam aut faciam. |
Bellum Eternus
Gallente
Death of Virtue
|
Posted - 2008.10.21 11:45:00 -
[27]
Lars and Haks'he- thanks for the kind words. I'm glad that you find it helpful. Quite a change from people flaming me to hell and back as per the usual.
Bellum Eternus
[Vid] L E G E N D A R Y COLLECTION
Inveniam viam aut faciam. |
ceveres
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Posted - 2008.10.21 11:47:00 -
[28]
what about stealth bombers..is this going to make them useless.(cruise). are being rebalanced to cause less damage to player's cruisers/frigs
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Delos Korelian
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Posted - 2008.10.21 11:48:00 -
[29]
Does that mean ships like Cerbs. Nighhawks, and whatever Amarr Missile boats will actually start playing a role in PVP rather than mostly PVE?
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Irulan S'Dijana
Amarr
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2008.10.21 11:53:00 -
[30]
Ha! An indirect, relative boost to Damnation DPS.
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