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To the local nerf complainers, I give you:

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Malka Badi'a Suffoco Noctis	Posted - 2008.10.27 17:10:00 - [1] Reasons why your arguments are nothing but fallacies. 1.) "Why should we be forced to use alts just to see if a system is safe, before undocking!" When undocking you are rendered invulnerable until you preform a ship action (warp, align, module) or until the undocking timer runs out (30 seconds). That is plenty of time to run a 360¦ directional scan at the maximum 14.3 AU scan range. This will give you an idea of your immediate surroundings and is damn near instant. The short time when you are invulnerable also grants you enough leverage to undock and see if you are being station camped. Also, since this is in 0.0, I'd expect you would be in a corporation or alliance and could quite easily ask for someone to recon the area. Once undocked it's as simple as directional scanning at 30¦ 14.3 AU towards the gate by warping to the planet closet to said gate while also considering, if no planets near the gate, to warp at 100k from the gate. Generally, most 0.0 pilots have gate-scanning bookmarks already hand-crafted. 2.) "Great another blob promotion tool." As mentioned above there are plenty of ways to ensure individual survivability with this change to local. Even more importantly, I might add, anyone looking to take an expensive ship should consider the fact that this is not World of Warcraft and you are not always meant to be a solo pownmobile. There are times in EVE where traveling with a scout or two is as much, or should be, a survival trait as equipping a shield. You have a problem with this not because of some fabricated effect on fleet warfare, but because it requires you to rely on someone else and thus feel weak at the same time. Instead of pushing everyone away in a rather large MMORPG, try allowing yourself to make friends, work together faster to achieve the same goal, and understand that scouting a system generally only takes one person, two for speed. 3.) "How is one to find targets? Especially with complexes. People just sit there, ratting like there is no tomorrow, and just keep their scanner open. Meanwhile, a gang passing though has to deploy several probes just to find out if someone is there." Finding war targets is going to require use of reconnaissance, like most wars. We have multiple ships and implants, some even tech 1, that have bonuses to scan probes. Something to keep in mind is that you will not need to launch a probe just to check and see if someone is near. The on-board ship scanner has a 14.3 AU range and is an instant scan. If the target is beyond 14.3 AU, then it would be wise to use a system-wide probe to detect any players. This is generally something done by a recon-based ship which can cloak to avoid detection while the scan is taking place. While this will not always be needed per system on a general basis, it would be needed more often during times of war. Another thing to keep in mind is that while they may be hitting their scanner over and over, as they should be anyway, you can still use long-range probes and remain off their scans at the same time. If a gang is looking to "hunt", bring something that allows them to gather intel. 4.) "If anything, this will make live easier for carebears." And stealth bombers. And covert-ops. And force recon. And black ops. And pirates already engaging in a fight that don't want a random to join. The element of surprise applies as a bonus to everyone due to the nature of advantage it gives us in terms of hidden information.
Julius Rigel House Rigel	Posted - 2008.10.27 17:16:00 - [2] Yawn. Another whine about whines.
Malka Badi'a Suffoco Noctis	Posted - 2008.10.27 17:17:00 - [3] Originally by: Julius Rigel Yawn. Another whine about whines. Education is very different than complaining about complainers. I offered solutions above, what more do you want?
Misanth RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE	Posted - 2008.10.27 17:19:00 - [4] All valid points. But you assume the attackers are more than one, and that the defender is alone. Having scouts at gates will kill off the element of surprise (assuming the roamers don't use black ops, which is pretty hard to "roam" around in in itself and need multiple ships already btw..). It's not a simple solution, then it would've been done a long time ago. The key is to sort the current scanning system as well (from a intel-gathering tool perspective) - and possibly cloaked scouting at gates too - when this change comes through. That's exactly what was mentioned by Zulupark. Local will be replaced by another intelligence gathering tool. Ta-da, your post was pointless. Valid points, but only half the story and thus missed alot of important information.
Fifi LeFume Infestation. R.U.R.	Posted - 2008.10.27 17:20:00 - [5] Originally by: Malka Badi'a Originally by: Julius Rigel Yawn. Another whine about whines. Education is very different than complaining about complainers. I offered solutions above, what more do you want? I want you to ask for a pve navy megathron setup that has 3 ccc rigs on it that maximises tanking ability with only these skills repair systems 4 mechanic 3 hull upgrades 2 energy grid upgrades 2
Qordel Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.10.27 17:21:00 - [6] Couldn't this have been posted in the thread that already exists regarding the local nerf?
jbob2000 Gallente Degenerate...	Posted - 2008.10.27 17:25:00 - [7] Quote: 1.) "Why should we be forced to use alts just to see if a system is safe, before undocking!" When undocking you are rendered invulnerable until you preform a ship action (warp, align, module) or until the undocking timer runs out (30 seconds). That is plenty of time to run a 360¦ directional scan at the maximum 14.3 AU scan range. This will give you an idea of your immediate surroundings and is damn near instant. The short time when you are invulnerable also grants you enough leverage to undock and see if you are being station camped. Also, since this is in 0.0, I'd expect you would be in a corporation or alliance and could quite easily ask for someone to recon the area. Once undocked it's as simple as directional scanning at 30¦ 14.3 AU towards the gate by warping to the planet closet to said gate while also considering, if no planets near the gate, to warp at 100k from the gate. Generally, most 0.0 pilots have gate-scanning bookmarks already hand-crafted. So i have to do all that, just to see if there is anyone in the system. Instead of glancing down at local. Right.
Fulber	Posted - 2008.10.27 17:26:00 - [8] Originally by: Qordel Couldn't this have been posted in the thread that already exists regarding the local nerf? But the post has red text! It must be right! It must be in a new thread!
Malka Badi'a Suffoco Noctis	Posted - 2008.10.27 17:27:00 - [9] Edited by: Malka Badi''a on 27/10/2008 17:29:29 Originally by: Misanth All valid points. But you assume the attackers are more than one, and that the defender is alone. Because honestly it applies to anyone in 0.0. Miners, pirates, fleets. You really shouldn't be mining solo in 0.0, nor should you be rat hunting solo. Bring people with you or put up probes to keep scans up and running. Counters already exist for the passive people and involve the same steps as the attacking force. If the attacker is less than one in 0.0 then you're already "doing it wrong" so to speak. The entire point CCP is trying to make, especially by limiting this to 0.0 by now, is that expecting a risk-free solo enviroment in that kind of lawlessness security system is simply not allowed. It'll take some work to find people, which benefits both sides. Quote: Having scouts at gates will kill off the element of surprise (assuming the roamers don't use black ops, which is pretty hard to "roam" around in in itself and need multiple ships already btw..). Scouts shouldn't be sitting at gates anyway. 10 AU away and scanning is more than enough for basic recon and even then, the gate isn't the concern so much as the rest of the area. Focus on the gate and you'll miss someone already logged in that system. Quote: It's not a simple solution, then it would've been done a long time ago. I agree. Moreso providing ammo against the people who refuse to budge on there being alternative solutions to the current situation and information presented to us by CCP. When something more specific gets worked out then I'll more than happily adapt my explainations to fit, but for now I just want to make apparant that the sheer loss of local is nothing to get worked up about, and then substantiate it versus expect my opinion to float on its own. Quote: Couldn't this have been posted in the thread that already exists regarding the local nerf? And gotten lost in the noise of opinions and insults instead of actual discussion? Quote: So i have to do all that, just to see if there is anyone in the system. Instead of glancing down at local. Right. That is correct. Just like you have to load ammo into your guns. Just like you have to click orbit or manually control your ship. Local, as CCP has admitted, was simply too much gain for zero work. If you're going to be out in 0.0 where the change will affect you I'd recommend learning the basic survival tactics (mentioned far above) that the rest of us have been using for quite some time. ---------
Asuka SoryuLangley	Posted - 2008.10.27 17:28:00 - [10] You fail. I'll reply just at your first point, becouse you are not worth my time: bumping.
Fulber	Posted - 2008.10.27 17:30:00 - [11] Originally by: Asuka SoryuLangley You fail. I'll reply just at your first point, becouse you are not worth my time: bumping. Even more glaringly obvious: undocking beyond docking range.
Fulber	Posted - 2008.10.27 17:30:00 - [12] Originally by: Malka Badi'a Quote: Couldn't this have been posted in the thread that already exists regarding the local nerf? And gotten lost in the noise of opinions and insults instead of actual discussion? Oh god. Called it above.
Malka Badi'a Suffoco Noctis	Posted - 2008.10.27 17:31:00 - [13] Originally by: Fulber Even more glaringly obvious: undocking beyond docking range. I've heard of there being a few of these but have not ever seen it first hand. Toss me a location so I can go test it and report it? ---------
W3370Pi4 Caldari	Posted - 2008.10.27 17:31:00 - [14] stop whining about things that arent implemented yet im pretty sure ccp will give us things to balance the local channel ********************************************* Vitreous Mercoxit ! What else
Clair Bear Coalition of Nations Free Trade Zone.	Posted - 2008.10.27 17:32:00 - [15] OP fails to take logonski/logoffski tactics into account. Also hinted at station tanking nerfs. But otherwise has great points. IMO it's pointless to argue until the full details of this change (and matching scanning & other changes) are introduced.
Fulber	Posted - 2008.10.27 17:33:00 - [16] Originally by: Malka Badi'a You really shouldn't be mining solo in 0.0, nor should you be rat hunting solo. You're spot on there. I can't believe so many people are so stupid and not running L4 missions in Motsu. Maybe this local change will fix this sad state of affairs.
Malka Badi'a Suffoco Noctis	Posted - 2008.10.27 17:34:00 - [17] Originally by: Clair Bear OP fails to take logonski/logoffski tactics into account. Also hinted at station tanking nerfs. But otherwise has great points. Good point, not sure how they are going to manage that. Quote: IMO it's pointless to argue until the full details of this change (and matching scanning & other changes) are introduced. I agree, completely. But I like stirring up trouble. Right now I'm just combating some of the more commonly seen complaints that have been given just based on the information we have currently. Kind of a "This is how you avoid it with the current means, and why it still wouldn't be so bad" ---------
Fulber	Posted - 2008.10.27 17:34:00 - [18] Originally by: Malka Badi'a Local, as CCP has admitted, was simply too much gain for zero work. It's a game. What's wrong with one aspect being "zero work"?
Malka Badi'a Suffoco Noctis	Posted - 2008.10.27 17:36:00 - [19] Originally by: Fulber It's a game. What's wrong with one aspect being "zero work"? That is a strawman argument. Just because it's a game doesn't mean it needs to be void of effort. So let's replace my "work" with "effort" instead. The level of effort required right now for very important peices of intel is simply far too low, and CCP agrees. ---------
Fulber	Posted - 2008.10.27 17:37:00 - [20] Originally by: Malka Badi'a The entire point CCP is trying to make, especially by limiting this to 0.0 by now, is that expecting a risk-free solo enviroment in that kind of lawlessness security system is simply not allowed. POS Warfare is now risk-free? Are you running for CSM? I'd vote for you.
Malka Badi'a Suffoco Noctis	Posted - 2008.10.27 17:39:00 - [21] Originally by: Fulber Originally by: Malka Badi'a The entire point CCP is trying to make, especially by limiting this to 0.0 by now, is that expecting a risk-free solo enviroment in that kind of lawlessness security system is simply not allowed. POS Warfare is now risk-free? Are you running for CSM? I'd vote for you. In the context of risk-free intel, not PoS. Sorry if I didn't elaborate. ---------
Fulber	Posted - 2008.10.27 17:42:00 - [22] Originally by: Malka Badi'a Originally by: Fulber It's a game. What's wrong with one aspect being "zero work"? That is a strawman argument. Just because it's a game doesn't mean it needs to be void of effort. So let's replace my "work" with "effort" instead. The level of effort required right now for very important peices of intel is simply far too low, and CCP agrees. It's not a strawman argument. It's a valid point. You're welcome to recolour it as "effort" instead, but the bottom line you should be looking at is "fun". Now, you really want to fly around 0.0 space in your Rapier and gets sweet PvP Action. We can all see that. What you appear to completely blind to is the fact that the sweet PvP Action you so desperately crave won't actually be available. They'll all be logged on their Motsu alts. *Because ratting ravens are just so juicy. amirite?
Fulber	Posted - 2008.10.27 17:43:00 - [23] Originally by: Malka Badi'a Originally by: Fulber Originally by: Malka Badi'a The entire point CCP is trying to make, especially by limiting this to 0.0 by now, is that expecting a risk-free solo enviroment in that kind of lawlessness security system is simply not allowed. POS Warfare is now risk-free? Are you running for CSM? I'd vote for you. In the context of risk-free intel, not PoS. Sorry if I didn't elaborate. Rocket powered goalposts. Good game.
Misanth RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE	Posted - 2008.10.27 17:45:00 - [24] Edited by: Misanth on 27/10/2008 17:46:18 Originally by: Malka Badi'a Edited by: Malka Badi''a on 27/10/2008 17:29:29 Originally by: Misanth All valid points. But you assume the attackers are more than one, and that the defender is alone. Because honestly it applies to anyone in 0.0. Miners, pirates, fleets. You really shouldn't be mining solo in 0.0, nor should you be rat hunting solo. Bring people with you or put up probes to keep scans up and running. Counters already exist for the passive people and involve the same steps as the attacking force. If the attacker is less than one in 0.0 then you're already "doing it wrong" so to speak. The entire point CCP is trying to make, especially by limiting this to 0.0 by now, is that expecting a risk-free solo enviroment in that kind of lawlessness security system is simply not allowed. It'll take some work to find people, which benefits both sides. I always rat solo in 0.0, why the hell I would bring a fleet is beyond me. There's a million of reasons to why not to. Profit. Game time. Different interests. Amount of belts/quality of spawns. Access to empty or near empty systems. Most of the roaming I've done is done based on light ships moving over many systems, but I also do solo hunting in 0.0, got a couple of recon pilots and another in training atm. There's nothing I love more than roaming, and I much prefer ratting to running lv4's in Empire, but for both my roamers and ratters these changes are making it worse for me, simply because I don't run around with a whole fleet neither when making isk nor when attacking. So what you're saying is that small scale PvP should be nerfed? Originally by: Malka Badi'a Originally by: Misanth Having scouts at gates will kill off the element of surprise (assuming the roamers don't use black ops, which is pretty hard to "roam" around in in itself and need multiple ships already btw..). Scouts shouldn't be sitting at gates anyway. 10 AU away and scanning is more than enough for basic recon and even then, the gate isn't the concern so much as the rest of the area. Focus on the gate and you'll miss someone already logged in that system. Scouts should sit at the edge of the grid, cloaked, so they can zoom in on the gate and provide the gate activation sound for you when you run multiple clients. Your example is a scout for fleets. Originally by: Malka Badi'a Quote: It's not a simple solution, then it would've been done a long time ago. I agree. Moreso providing ammo against the people who refuse to budge on there being alternative solutions to the current situation and information presented to us by CCP. When something more specific gets worked out then I'll more than happily adapt my explainations to fit, but for now I just want to make apparant that the sheer loss of local is nothing to get worked up about, and then substantiate it versus expect my opinion to float on its own. I want it easier to catch targets when I roam. I think it's way too easy to stay alive when ratting in 0.0. I agree with your points. Still, I think you miss the big picture. What needs to be done is to make it easier to enter systems without being detected, both gates as well as from intelligence gathering tools. Removing local? Sure. But it shouldn't be done when it will promote blobbing, because that's what's going to happen when people park alts at gates, and need a few extra guys in their roaming gangs just to run covert ops ships or recons with probe launchers. This is a nerf to 1-5man gang PvP. Unless the new tool has a delayed mechanic on displaying new guys in local or something, and gate activation display + sound should be removed on ships with cloaking bonuses, imho.
Malka Badi'a Suffoco Noctis	Posted - 2008.10.27 17:47:00 - [25] Edited by: Malka Badi''a on 27/10/2008 17:51:59 Originally by: Fulber Now, you really want to fly around 0.0 space in your Rapier and gets sweet PvP Action. We can all see that. What you appear to completely blind to is the fact that the sweet PvP Action you so desperately crave won't actually be available. They'll all be logged on their Motsu alts. Because ratting ravens are just so juicy. amirite? I hate for it to come to this, but if you aren't willing to put the effort into the game to work with other people, go play a single-player game, or go to low-sec. I'm not using that as an excuse for the 0.0 local changes as some sort of GFTO validation, but as a legitimate proposal as to how we are viewing EVE. Sure, everyone likes a good insta-fun action now and then but I don't think that's specifically what 0.0 was meant for. I don't even think EVE is meant to be anything other than a long-burning candle with bursts of activity inbetween. Don't misunderstand me, I'm a complete wolfpack and soloist pirate. I don't encourage blobs but I don't discourage them either. I simply think that there is nothing wrong with finding that instant fun gratification in a game where it is designed for it. They've said it since the beginning that local was not ever meant to be used for this long of a period, and I think people either forgot about it or chose to ignore it and treat it as a crutch for fun. Again, this reply puts me in the realm of cynisism and "jerk", but I'd at least like to keep this thread civil about our opinions. Quote:* What needs to be done is to make it easier to enter systems without being detected, both gates as well as from intelligence gathering tools. Excellent point. Off work, back on the thread soon. ---------
Fulber	Posted - 2008.10.27 17:49:00 - [26] Originally by: Fulber They'll all be logged on their Motsu alts. Guess you missed this bit. Have fun scanning empty 0.0 systems.
Malcanis RuffRyders Eradication Alliance	Posted - 2008.10.27 17:54:00 - [27] Originally by: Fulber Originally by: Fulber They'll all be logged on their Motsu alts. Guess you missed this bit. Have fun scanning empty 0.0 systems. Suits me. I can rat pretty well in a PvP fit...
Gone'Postal Minmatar Rage of Inferno	Posted - 2008.10.27 17:56:00 - [28] No problem on the local change, but if i'm in a starship with all these nice guns and scanners, but the ship can't tell me if anything enters scaning range automaticly then i'm going to fire the guy who programmed it. 0.0 local should only light up the players within scanning range, and should do this automaticly unless there in a cloaked ship. Forcing me to constantly scan is jsut going to bore the **** of me. Boost SISI VOTE NOW!
Last Wolf Umbra Wing	Posted - 2008.10.27 17:57:00 - [29] They can completely remove local for all I care, with one conditions. GIVE STATIONS A FREAKING WINDOW SO I CAN LOOK OUTSIDE! Thank you
Misanth RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE	Posted - 2008.10.27 17:58:00 - [30] Edited by: Misanth on 27/10/2008 17:59:55 Your reply to Fulber is what I mean. You state it yourself, you don't want solo PvP to be viable, and you want to force people to play in teams. A wolfpack is still a wolfpack, you need to get x people to play at the same time, and to do the same thing. I love wolfpacks myself as stated but it kills all the people that has too much or too little time to adapt their game time to others. In my case I have too much gametime (fulltime gamer) and I get incredibly bored having to wait for others to get online. That's killing EVE for me. I need my alts and myself to get the roaming PvP I want. Also, I got a good friend that enjoys the same, if he and me would go out and twoman a little bit we'd be gimped if we'd have to bring a prober - either refit the ships we have, bring an alt, or pull in a 3rd person (and here we start to get problems due to game time restrictions again). Your points are valid, but they don't take players with alot/little game time into consideration. Edit; Nor consider jerks like me that noone wants to play with.

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