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An Analysis of the conflict in Venal

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Robiak Nupier	Posted - 2004.07.02 15:45:00 - [91] LOL, there is no point. With these kinds of attitudes there is no hope for peace at this time. I was simply trying to state in what I thought was a polite and thoughtful way that it might be time to consider putting an end to the war as there is nothing more to be gained by either side but grief. It is no wonder that we have been asked to stay away from the forums and now I see why. Lesson learned. Enjoy.
Robiak Nupier	Posted - 2004.07.02 15:45:00 - [92] LOL, there is no point. With these kinds of attitudes there is no hope for peace at this time. I was simply trying to state in what I thought was a polite and thoughtful way that it might be time to consider putting an end to the war as there is nothing more to be gained by either side but grief. It is no wonder that we have been asked to stay away from the forums and now I see why. Lesson learned. Enjoy.
toaster	Posted - 2004.07.02 15:47:00 - [93] I can't say I know much about the circus going on up there right now, but it certainly appears like fighting for fighting sake. I wonder if most corp fighting up there (barring moo, evol and rkk) even know why they are fighting, or care for that matter. That said, my personal opinion is that they had it coming anyway becuase of the overall attitude and piracy policies of the PA. They got a bit too big for their britches and now they are paying for it. good luck to both sides ------------------------------------------------
toaster	Posted - 2004.07.02 15:47:00 - [94] I can't say I know much about the circus going on up there right now, but it certainly appears like fighting for fighting sake. I wonder if most corp fighting up there (barring moo, evol and rkk) even know why they are fighting, or care for that matter. That said, my personal opinion is that they had it coming anyway becuase of the overall attitude and piracy policies of the PA. They got a bit too big for their britches and now they are paying for it. good luck to both sides ------------------------------------------------
Jade Constantia	Posted - 2004.07.02 16:15:00 - [95] Originally by: Robiak Nupier LOL, there is no point. With these kinds of attitudes there is no hope for peace at this time. I was simply trying to state in what I thought was a polite and thoughtful way that it might be time to consider putting an end to the war as there is nothing more to be gained by either side but grief. Enjoy. The reason for beginning this war is just as valid now as it was then. PA must be held to account and made to keep its promises or be disbanded. The simple truth is that some things are worse than war. A dishonourable peace for one. The Great Northern War: 14 Day Commentary by Jade Constantine Jericho Fraction and Public Forum and introducing; LA MAISON DE TOUS LES PLAISIRS Gallente roleplaying and cultural exchange channel!
Jade Constantia	Posted - 2004.07.02 16:15:00 - [96] Originally by: Robiak Nupier LOL, there is no point. With these kinds of attitudes there is no hope for peace at this time. I was simply trying to state in what I thought was a polite and thoughtful way that it might be time to consider putting an end to the war as there is nothing more to be gained by either side but grief. Enjoy. The reason for beginning this war is just as valid now as it was then. PA must be held to account and made to keep its promises or be disbanded. The simple truth is that some things are worse than war. A dishonourable peace for one. The Great Northern War: 14 Day Commentary by Jade Constantine Jericho Fraction and Public Forum and introducing; LA MAISON DE TOUS LES PLAISIRS Gallente roleplaying and cultural exchange channel!
SirMolle	Posted - 2004.07.02 16:16:00 - [97] Originally by: toaster I can't say I know much about the circus going on up there right now, but it certainly appears like fighting for fighting sake. I wonder if most corp fighting up there (barring moo, evol and rkk) even know why they are fighting, or care for that matter. We know perfectly well, why we, as in Evolution, are fighting. http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=58553 That is why we started to fight, that is why we will continue to fight.
SirMolle	Posted - 2004.07.02 16:16:00 - [98] Originally by: toaster I can't say I know much about the circus going on up there right now, but it certainly appears like fighting for fighting sake. I wonder if most corp fighting up there (barring moo, evol and rkk) even know why they are fighting, or care for that matter. We know perfectly well, why we, as in Evolution, are fighting. http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=58553 That is why we started to fight, that is why we will continue to fight.
Sweetwater	Posted - 2004.07.02 17:06:00 - [99] Originally by: SirMolle Originally by: toaster I can't say I know much about the circus going on up there right now, but it certainly appears like fighting for fighting sake. I wonder if most corp fighting up there (barring moo, evol and rkk) even know why they are fighting, or care for that matter. We know perfectly well, why we, as in Evolution, are fighting. http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=58553 That is why we started to fight, that is why we will continue to fight. If you notice, he didn't say that Evol didn't know why they were fighting. He said that he believed that JF, Evol, and RKK were the only ones that knew why. There is no need to argue. Next, Jade, I would read your more of your posts if they didn't go on and on. In the U.S. House of Representatives, Congressmen will ask at the begining of their comments that they be allowed to revise and extend their remarks for the public record. They give a "Reader's Digest" version of what they want to say on the floor, and post the full text in the Congressional Record. I believe it would be a great help to your wanting people to LISTEN to you if you would do something similar. Post a condensed view here and have a link to your own public forums to extend your remarks. I believe people would be less likely to turn everything you say into a flame fest. If you wish to discuss it further, I'd be happy to do so OUTSIDE this thread. Finally, back on topic, I believe Casey Jens is right in his WWI analogy, except for the fact that CoD and FU kicked PA from NAST and there is not a WWI similarity. There is definitely one in WWII but I'm not going to go into that now. However Casey you have forgotten one important thread of history, in what Americans call the "Forgotten War." North and South Korea have been at war since 1950, yet, save the naval exchange of fire last year, their hasn't been an eruption of hostilities since 1953. This too COULD be a possibility in the current on-line conflict, but will anybody bring it to the table? Will anyone OFFER a table? We'll see.
Sweetwater	Posted - 2004.07.02 17:06:00 - [100] Originally by: SirMolle Originally by: toaster I can't say I know much about the circus going on up there right now, but it certainly appears like fighting for fighting sake. I wonder if most corp fighting up there (barring moo, evol and rkk) even know why they are fighting, or care for that matter. We know perfectly well, why we, as in Evolution, are fighting. http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=58553 That is why we started to fight, that is why we will continue to fight. If you notice, he didn't say that Evol didn't know why they were fighting. He said that he believed that JF, Evol, and RKK were the only ones that knew why. There is no need to argue. Next, Jade, I would read your more of your posts if they didn't go on and on. In the U.S. House of Representatives, Congressmen will ask at the begining of their comments that they be allowed to revise and extend their remarks for the public record. They give a "Reader's Digest" version of what they want to say on the floor, and post the full text in the Congressional Record. I believe it would be a great help to your wanting people to LISTEN to you if you would do something similar. Post a condensed view here and have a link to your own public forums to extend your remarks. I believe people would be less likely to turn everything you say into a flame fest. If you wish to discuss it further, I'd be happy to do so OUTSIDE this thread. Finally, back on topic, I believe Casey Jens is right in his WWI analogy, except for the fact that CoD and FU kicked PA from NAST and there is not a WWI similarity. There is definitely one in WWII but I'm not going to go into that now. However Casey you have forgotten one important thread of history, in what Americans call the "Forgotten War." North and South Korea have been at war since 1950, yet, save the naval exchange of fire last year, their hasn't been an eruption of hostilities since 1953. This too COULD be a possibility in the current on-line conflict, but will anybody bring it to the table? Will anyone OFFER a table? We'll see.
Jade Constantia	Posted - 2004.07.02 17:10:00 - [101] Complex issues deserve complex replies. If the length of my posts oppresses you don't read them, and don't feel obliged to reply to them either. I suspect we'll both be happier that way. The Great Northern War: 14 Day Commentary by Jade Constantine Jericho Fraction and Public Forum and introducing; LA MAISON DE TOUS LES PLAISIRS Gallente roleplaying and cultural exchange channel!
Jade Constantia	Posted - 2004.07.02 17:10:00 - [102] Complex issues deserve complex replies. If the length of my posts oppresses you don't read them, and don't feel obliged to reply to them either. I suspect we'll both be happier that way. The Great Northern War: 14 Day Commentary by Jade Constantine Jericho Fraction and Public Forum and introducing; LA MAISON DE TOUS LES PLAISIRS Gallente roleplaying and cultural exchange channel!
Winnux	Posted - 2004.07.02 18:30:00 - [103] Only a fool writes a reply with a thousand words, where a wiseman can explain his point of view in a few lines. I stopped reading after second paragraph.
Winnux	Posted - 2004.07.02 18:30:00 - [104] Only a fool writes a reply with a thousand words, where a wiseman can explain his point of view in a few lines. I stopped reading after second paragraph.
Jade Constantia	Posted - 2004.07.02 18:37:00 - [105] Edited by: Jade Constantia on 02/07/2004 18:43:33 Originally by: Winnux Only a fool writes a reply with a thousand words, where a wiseman can explain his point of view in a few lines. I stopped reading after second paragraph. Good good, and you felt the need to tell me that why? PS. What is all this tosh that has crept into the thread by the by? Casey made an interesting post that I responded to in a substantive manner that addressed the issues he raised. Could any waffle waitresses in the audience having trouble with the big words please unplug your keyboards and go buy an easy-listening CD to relax with please. The Great Northern War: 14 Day Commentary by Jade Constantine Jericho Fraction and Public Forum and introducing; LA MAISON DE TOUS LES PLAISIRS Gallente roleplaying and cultural exchange channel!
Jade Constantia	Posted - 2004.07.02 18:37:00 - [106] Edited by: Jade Constantia on 02/07/2004 18:43:33 Originally by: Winnux Only a fool writes a reply with a thousand words, where a wiseman can explain his point of view in a few lines. I stopped reading after second paragraph. Good good, and you felt the need to tell me that why? PS. What is all this tosh that has crept into the thread by the by? Casey made an interesting post that I responded to in a substantive manner that addressed the issues he raised. Could any waffle waitresses in the audience having trouble with the big words please unplug your keyboards and go buy an easy-listening CD to relax with please. The Great Northern War: 14 Day Commentary by Jade Constantine Jericho Fraction and Public Forum and introducing; LA MAISON DE TOUS LES PLAISIRS Gallente roleplaying and cultural exchange channel!
Winnux	Posted - 2004.07.02 18:48:00 - [107] Originally by: Jade Constantia Edited by: Jade Constantia on 02/07/2004 18:43:33 Originally by: Winnux Only a fool writes a reply with a thousand words, where a wiseman can explain his point of view in a few lines. I stopped reading after second paragraph. Good good, and you felt the need to tell me that why? Who said I was talking to you? A wise man reads what is really written, a fool reads what he wants to read.
Winnux	Posted - 2004.07.02 18:48:00 - [108] Originally by: Jade Constantia Edited by: Jade Constantia on 02/07/2004 18:43:33 Originally by: Winnux Only a fool writes a reply with a thousand words, where a wiseman can explain his point of view in a few lines. I stopped reading after second paragraph. Good good, and you felt the need to tell me that why? Who said I was talking to you? A wise man reads what is really written, a fool reads what he wants to read.
Notferr	Posted - 2004.07.02 19:20:00 - [109] Include some contect, or keep quiet, W. - N - Cowboy - Celestial Apocalypse Now hear this, I am selling clues on market in gehi.
Notferr	Posted - 2004.07.02 19:20:00 - [110] Include some contect, or keep quiet, W. - N - Cowboy - Celestial Apocalypse Now hear this, I am selling clues on market in gehi.
Hawkings SJ	Posted - 2004.07.02 20:31:00 - [111] Edited by: Hawkings SJ on 02/07/2004 21:54:10 I see you've donned the "Righteous Freedom Fighter" mask for this series of posts. Quote: While I agree there is no one stone cold silver bullet way to ôkillö an alliance (there isnÆt a special Bobby Wilson fan bus starship we can eliminate to claim the victory), but you can absolutely hurt an alliance and hurt it so badly that it dies a death as its members and corporations defect. I want to point out that afaik, no corps have left the PA. I don't think even any individual members have, your alliance, on the other hand..... Quote: Now some of those corps are being hunted in empire, so how long do you suppose they will continue to fly the PA banner for no reward? Being hunted in empire? Wouldn't that be sweet, but far as I've heard the empire battles have not exactly been some decisive victory for JF. As for the rest of your post, well, nothing you haven't said a billion times before...too bad repitition doesn't create fact. Edited to remove something about Karol Kei. G'luck with your diner, Karol.
Hawkings SJ	Posted - 2004.07.02 20:31:00 - [112] Edited by: Hawkings SJ on 02/07/2004 21:54:10 I see you've donned the "Righteous Freedom Fighter" mask for this series of posts. Quote: While I agree there is no one stone cold silver bullet way to ôkillö an alliance (there isnÆt a special Bobby Wilson fan bus starship we can eliminate to claim the victory), but you can absolutely hurt an alliance and hurt it so badly that it dies a death as its members and corporations defect. I want to point out that afaik, no corps have left the PA. I don't think even any individual members have, your alliance, on the other hand..... Quote: Now some of those corps are being hunted in empire, so how long do you suppose they will continue to fly the PA banner for no reward? Being hunted in empire? Wouldn't that be sweet, but far as I've heard the empire battles have not exactly been some decisive victory for JF. As for the rest of your post, well, nothing you haven't said a billion times before...too bad repitition doesn't create fact. Edited to remove something about Karol Kei. G'luck with your diner, Karol.
Karol Kei	Posted - 2004.07.02 21:26:00 - [113] Edited by: Karol Kei on 02/07/2004 22:05:23 Edited, since Hawkings kindly removed the reason for the post. Thanks.
Karol Kei	Posted - 2004.07.02 21:26:00 - [114] Edited by: Karol Kei on 02/07/2004 22:05:23 Edited, since Hawkings kindly removed the reason for the post. Thanks.
Jade Constantia	Posted - 2004.07.02 21:33:00 - [115] Quote: Being hunted in empire? Wouldn't that be sweet, but far as I've heard the empire battles have not exactly been some decisive victory for JF...hey BTW I heard this rumor about a Karol Kei...seems she quit JF and created her own corp to escape being station camped. Guess that empire war just got too tough eh? Karol has posted many of her reasons for leaving Jericho Fraction here and they have precisely nothing to do with losing any "in-game" war. I think you should read the thread and try to understand it. The crux of the matter is that you and the anti-roleplay zealots are able to "win" even by "losing" the in-game war by sapping the imagination from the environment and making any concept of imaginative interaction a farce. So by all means shout huzzah you managed to destroy Karol's faith in the ability of roleplaying corporation to go head to head with l33t-speak numpties and remaind unchanged, but the one thing you don't ever have is the satisfaction of camping us in a station. Here's the thing (as I say in the thread on the Jericho forum) I think we are quite capable of winning this war while losing our enjoyment in the game. Because in order to fight numpties we need to accept that eve becomes a null roleplaying game. Some of us can do that because we are just very stubborn at the end of the day, but I do kinda get an inkling that sooner or later Eve will become a dull place regardless of the result of this war. Karol is a roleplayer and wants to enjoy ic-play. PA and your mates managed to destroy all possibility of that with your venomous hatred and sabotage of all IC threads. In the end Karol decided she couldn't face the prospect of fighting a war against people with absolutely no common understanding of the value of roleplay or ic-interaction. CCP and moderators have let you guys get away with it. So clearly roleplaying is a low priority for Eve and indeed a minority activity. Well done Hawkings. You should be proud. The Great Northern War: 14 Day Commentary by Jade Constantine Jericho Fraction and Public Forum and introducing; LA MAISON DE TOUS LES PLAISIRS Gallente roleplaying and cultural exchange channel!
Jade Constantia	Posted - 2004.07.02 21:33:00 - [116] Quote: Being hunted in empire? Wouldn't that be sweet, but far as I've heard the empire battles have not exactly been some decisive victory for JF...hey BTW I heard this rumor about a Karol Kei...seems she quit JF and created her own corp to escape being station camped. Guess that empire war just got too tough eh? Karol has posted many of her reasons for leaving Jericho Fraction here and they have precisely nothing to do with losing any "in-game" war. I think you should read the thread and try to understand it. The crux of the matter is that you and the anti-roleplay zealots are able to "win" even by "losing" the in-game war by sapping the imagination from the environment and making any concept of imaginative interaction a farce. So by all means shout huzzah you managed to destroy Karol's faith in the ability of roleplaying corporation to go head to head with l33t-speak numpties and remaind unchanged, but the one thing you don't ever have is the satisfaction of camping us in a station. Here's the thing (as I say in the thread on the Jericho forum) I think we are quite capable of winning this war while losing our enjoyment in the game. Because in order to fight numpties we need to accept that eve becomes a null roleplaying game. Some of us can do that because we are just very stubborn at the end of the day, but I do kinda get an inkling that sooner or later Eve will become a dull place regardless of the result of this war. Karol is a roleplayer and wants to enjoy ic-play. PA and your mates managed to destroy all possibility of that with your venomous hatred and sabotage of all IC threads. In the end Karol decided she couldn't face the prospect of fighting a war against people with absolutely no common understanding of the value of roleplay or ic-interaction. CCP and moderators have let you guys get away with it. So clearly roleplaying is a low priority for Eve and indeed a minority activity. Well done Hawkings. You should be proud. The Great Northern War: 14 Day Commentary by Jade Constantine Jericho Fraction and Public Forum and introducing; LA MAISON DE TOUS LES PLAISIRS Gallente roleplaying and cultural exchange channel!
Blizzaro	Posted - 2004.07.02 21:38:00 - [117] In the end Karol decided she couldn't face the prospect of fighting a war against people with absolutely no common understanding of the value of roleplay or ic-interaction - I dont roleplay tbh 95%of pa don't if you want rp decare war on a rp alliance
Blizzaro	Posted - 2004.07.02 21:38:00 - [118] In the end Karol decided she couldn't face the prospect of fighting a war against people with absolutely no common understanding of the value of roleplay or ic-interaction - I dont roleplay tbh 95%of pa don't if you want rp decare war on a rp alliance
Jade Constantia	Posted - 2004.07.02 21:47:00 - [119] Originally by: Blizzaro In the end Karol decided she couldn't face the prospect of fighting a war against people with absolutely no common understanding of the value of roleplay or ic-interaction - I dont roleplay tbh 95%of pa don't if you want rp decare war on a rp alliance So basically you are saying ... if you roleplay, "don't interact with 95%" of the game population. But its not really about that. Its not the fact you don't roleplay, its the fact you have so agressively trashed all attempts at IC play and made it impossible for anyone roleplaying to interact with you. Ultimately though its probably not your fault Blizzaro. I fully hold CCP responsible for not protecting those players who wanted to roleplay within the game background. If the PA ooc forum hate mongers had been banned immediately for ooc personal attacks then it would have sent a message to the game population as to what was, and what was not on. This has nothing to do with spaceship fighting. We never wanted any kind of advantage or protection in-game where our skills and talents were all the help we needed. But when any asshat with a posting account is allowed to eliminate the possibility of IC play with hateful rubbish then its clearly the responsibility of community managers and moderators to take steps or watch their environment turn to utter trash. The Great Northern War: 14 Day Commentary by Jade Constantine Jericho Fraction and Public Forum and introducing; LA MAISON DE TOUS LES PLAISIRS Gallente roleplaying and cultural exchange channel!
Jade Constantia	Posted - 2004.07.02 21:47:00 - [120] Originally by: Blizzaro In the end Karol decided she couldn't face the prospect of fighting a war against people with absolutely no common understanding of the value of roleplay or ic-interaction - I dont roleplay tbh 95%of pa don't if you want rp decare war on a rp alliance So basically you are saying ... if you roleplay, "don't interact with 95%" of the game population. But its not really about that. Its not the fact you don't roleplay, its the fact you have so agressively trashed all attempts at IC play and made it impossible for anyone roleplaying to interact with you. Ultimately though its probably not your fault Blizzaro. I fully hold CCP responsible for not protecting those players who wanted to roleplay within the game background. If the PA ooc forum hate mongers had been banned immediately for ooc personal attacks then it would have sent a message to the game population as to what was, and what was not on. This has nothing to do with spaceship fighting. We never wanted any kind of advantage or protection in-game where our skills and talents were all the help we needed. But when any asshat with a posting account is allowed to eliminate the possibility of IC play with hateful rubbish then its clearly the responsibility of community managers and moderators to take steps or watch their environment turn to utter trash. The Great Northern War: 14 Day Commentary by Jade Constantine Jericho Fraction and Public Forum and introducing; LA MAISON DE TOUS LES PLAISIRS Gallente roleplaying and cultural exchange channel!

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