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An Analysis of the conflict in Venal

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Blizzaro	Posted - 2004.07.02 22:00:00 - [121] Edited by: Blizzaro on 02/07/2004 22:02:18 if you want to rp theres always ad&d not my thang but i hear its good for the rp thang just an idea
Blizzaro	Posted - 2004.07.02 22:00:00 - [122] Edited by: Blizzaro on 02/07/2004 22:02:18 if you want to rp theres always ad&d not my thang but i hear its good for the rp thang just an idea
Jade Constantia	Posted - 2004.07.02 22:05:00 - [123] Originally by: Blizzaro Edited by: Blizzaro on 02/07/2004 22:02:18 if you want to rp theres always ad&d not my thang but i hear its good for the rp thang just an idea Let me ask you a serious question. What do you make of the background material and roleplaying material in the "World of Eve" section? Is that all just trash to you? Does it mean anything? Also, when you guys are talking to the Jovian ambassador are you actually speaking to the developer/events team guy out of character? Since you are a totally non roleplay alliance I'm betting you find the concept of Jovians a bit geeky and pointless right? Or does the promise of funky items make you suddenly warm up to the concept of actually playing a character? The Great Northern War: 14 Day Commentary by Jade Constantine Jericho Fraction and Public Forum and introducing; LA MAISON DE TOUS LES PLAISIRS Gallente roleplaying and cultural exchange channel!
Jade Constantia	Posted - 2004.07.02 22:05:00 - [124] Originally by: Blizzaro Edited by: Blizzaro on 02/07/2004 22:02:18 if you want to rp theres always ad&d not my thang but i hear its good for the rp thang just an idea Let me ask you a serious question. What do you make of the background material and roleplaying material in the "World of Eve" section? Is that all just trash to you? Does it mean anything? Also, when you guys are talking to the Jovian ambassador are you actually speaking to the developer/events team guy out of character? Since you are a totally non roleplay alliance I'm betting you find the concept of Jovians a bit geeky and pointless right? Or does the promise of funky items make you suddenly warm up to the concept of actually playing a character? The Great Northern War: 14 Day Commentary by Jade Constantine Jericho Fraction and Public Forum and introducing; LA MAISON DE TOUS LES PLAISIRS Gallente roleplaying and cultural exchange channel!
Karol Kei	Posted - 2004.07.02 22:12:00 - [125] Originally by: Blizzaro In the end Karol decided she couldn't face the prospect of fighting a war against people with absolutely no common understanding of the value of roleplay or ic-interaction - I dont roleplay tbh 95%of pa don't if you want rp decare war on a rp alliance This goes off topic. I wish we would do it in another thread. I didn't mind the wars quite the contrary. Wars make the world go around IC and OOC. It is a game based on war. Instead, I am a firm supporter of one unified IC/OOC community, in which both can do their thing with mutual respect. It can be done and it has been done. Unfortunately, the respect always seems to run out at some point. It breaks my heart to see the lack of respect to fellow players and their playstyle, also because it speaks so much of much wider issues. Respect and tolerance are the words. I don't demand people to roleplay. All I ask is respect and tolerance, and I am willing to give them back.
Karol Kei	Posted - 2004.07.02 22:12:00 - [126] Originally by: Blizzaro In the end Karol decided she couldn't face the prospect of fighting a war against people with absolutely no common understanding of the value of roleplay or ic-interaction - I dont roleplay tbh 95%of pa don't if you want rp decare war on a rp alliance This goes off topic. I wish we would do it in another thread. I didn't mind the wars quite the contrary. Wars make the world go around IC and OOC. It is a game based on war. Instead, I am a firm supporter of one unified IC/OOC community, in which both can do their thing with mutual respect. It can be done and it has been done. Unfortunately, the respect always seems to run out at some point. It breaks my heart to see the lack of respect to fellow players and their playstyle, also because it speaks so much of much wider issues. Respect and tolerance are the words. I don't demand people to roleplay. All I ask is respect and tolerance, and I am willing to give them back.
Selim	Posted - 2004.07.02 22:23:00 - [127] The NVA was indeed destroyed when JF was kicked out. The ideals held by the NVA of free and open space and democracy were thrown out along with JF, and the remaining members created the Phoenix Alliance as a substitute, in order to consolidate their power against the Forsaken Empire threat, ignoring the ideas they had supported for so long.
Selim	Posted - 2004.07.02 22:23:00 - [128] The NVA was indeed destroyed when JF was kicked out. The ideals held by the NVA of free and open space and democracy were thrown out along with JF, and the remaining members created the Phoenix Alliance as a substitute, in order to consolidate their power against the Forsaken Empire threat, ignoring the ideas they had supported for so long.
Hawkings SJ	Posted - 2004.07.02 22:59:00 - [129] Quote: Karol has posted many of her reasons for leaving Jericho Fraction here and they have precisely nothing to do with losing any "in-game" war. Thanks for letting me know Jade, but I'm afraid I have just about 0 intention of reading the JF boards. I've already cleared this up with Karol, but since you've decided to turn her into a martyr for your roleplaying cause, allow me to respond. Nobody seeks you out as a target for flames or attacks because you roleplay. They do so because your pompous, fanatical and tend to post inflametory threads yourself. I could go over all the same points I made the last time you complained about this...but let me just try to sum it up for you again. Roleplaying is a decision you make to limit your own actions and pretend to be someone else. It is in no way a responsibility of others to recognize, care or treat you differently because you made that choice. If you are unable to roleplay among people who do not roleplay that is your problem. Nobody is going out of their way to screw over roleplayers, you are mistaking indifference with malice. Quote: So by all means shout huzzah you managed to destroy Karol's faith in the ability of roleplaying corporation to go head to head with l33t-speak numpties and remaind unchanged, but the one thing you don't ever have is the satisfaction of camping us in a station. Here's the thing (as I say in the thread on the Jericho forum) I think we are quite capable of winning this war while losing our enjoyment in the game. Because in order to fight numpties we need to accept that eve becomes a null roleplaying game. Some of us can do that because we are just very stubborn at the end of the day, but I do kinda get an inkling that sooner or later Eve will become a dull place regardless of the result of this war. Karol is a roleplayer and wants to enjoy ic-play. PA and your mates managed to destroy all possibility of that with your venomous hatred and sabotage of all IC threads. In the end Karol decided she couldn't face the prospect of fighting a war against people with absolutely no common understanding of the value of roleplay or ic-interaction. I didn't destroy Karols faith in anything, and unless she tells me otherwise I'm writing this off as just more of you using her as a martyr. She's still alive, let her voice that here if she believes it. There are pleanty of opportunities for you to interact with people who appreciate what you are doing. You choose not to, you choose instead to interact with people you know aren't roleplaying, and I fail to see why you are always suprised when they treat you as they do one another. And as an aside...really Jade, blaming the PA for destroying roleplaying? Whats next, do we get blamed for cancer?
Hawkings SJ	Posted - 2004.07.02 22:59:00 - [130] Quote: Karol has posted many of her reasons for leaving Jericho Fraction here and they have precisely nothing to do with losing any "in-game" war. Thanks for letting me know Jade, but I'm afraid I have just about 0 intention of reading the JF boards. I've already cleared this up with Karol, but since you've decided to turn her into a martyr for your roleplaying cause, allow me to respond. Nobody seeks you out as a target for flames or attacks because you roleplay. They do so because your pompous, fanatical and tend to post inflametory threads yourself. I could go over all the same points I made the last time you complained about this...but let me just try to sum it up for you again. Roleplaying is a decision you make to limit your own actions and pretend to be someone else. It is in no way a responsibility of others to recognize, care or treat you differently because you made that choice. If you are unable to roleplay among people who do not roleplay that is your problem. Nobody is going out of their way to screw over roleplayers, you are mistaking indifference with malice. Quote: So by all means shout huzzah you managed to destroy Karol's faith in the ability of roleplaying corporation to go head to head with l33t-speak numpties and remaind unchanged, but the one thing you don't ever have is the satisfaction of camping us in a station. Here's the thing (as I say in the thread on the Jericho forum) I think we are quite capable of winning this war while losing our enjoyment in the game. Because in order to fight numpties we need to accept that eve becomes a null roleplaying game. Some of us can do that because we are just very stubborn at the end of the day, but I do kinda get an inkling that sooner or later Eve will become a dull place regardless of the result of this war. Karol is a roleplayer and wants to enjoy ic-play. PA and your mates managed to destroy all possibility of that with your venomous hatred and sabotage of all IC threads. In the end Karol decided she couldn't face the prospect of fighting a war against people with absolutely no common understanding of the value of roleplay or ic-interaction. I didn't destroy Karols faith in anything, and unless she tells me otherwise I'm writing this off as just more of you using her as a martyr. She's still alive, let her voice that here if she believes it. There are pleanty of opportunities for you to interact with people who appreciate what you are doing. You choose not to, you choose instead to interact with people you know aren't roleplaying, and I fail to see why you are always suprised when they treat you as they do one another. And as an aside...really Jade, blaming the PA for destroying roleplaying? Whats next, do we get blamed for cancer?
Zhuge Liang	Posted - 2004.07.02 23:05:00 - [131] Please keep the thread on topic. ZhuuÀ gheyÀleeÀyan (Kongming)
Zhuge Liang	Posted - 2004.07.02 23:05:00 - [132] Please keep the thread on topic. ZhuuÀ gheyÀleeÀyan (Kongming)
KIAHicks	Posted - 2004.07.02 23:57:00 - [133] Originally by: Rarium "Bring a smaller gank and we'll fight" --- Other than today's activities, I've never even SEEN a PA fleet warp in and engage anything that's close to their size or greater, if it's not in their favor 2:1, they log.. That is so untrue. I've been involved in many fights where we have been outnumbered by up to 2 to 3 times the number of ships, likewise I've been in many fights where we've outnumbered the enemy by 2 to 3 times the number of ships. Some went our way, some didn't... but to say the PA never fight outnumbered is to oversimplify combat in eve. You can have supperiour numbers but be tactically at a disadvantage where engaging would be suicide. Likewise we've managed to make kills when outnumbered 8 to 2 due to taking a chance when having a tactical advantage. As for when the war will be over, from our point of view it won't end until every last hostile has left venal/tenal and branch. Even then, I wouldn't expect people to forget what has happened easily, I can see this war dragging on for many many months. Then again, I guess the reverse logic will apply and the other side won't give in until the PA do.. Thus my reasons for saying this war will run and run. Thats all I'm going to post in this thread as I don't want to cause it to degenerate into a flame war.. If you want to flame me, you can send EVE-Mails to KIAHicks. Keenon: "After sitting in the system for FIVE hours without even a (go away)"...
KIAHicks	Posted - 2004.07.02 23:57:00 - [134] Originally by: Rarium "Bring a smaller gank and we'll fight" --- Other than today's activities, I've never even SEEN a PA fleet warp in and engage anything that's close to their size or greater, if it's not in their favor 2:1, they log.. That is so untrue. I've been involved in many fights where we have been outnumbered by up to 2 to 3 times the number of ships, likewise I've been in many fights where we've outnumbered the enemy by 2 to 3 times the number of ships. Some went our way, some didn't... but to say the PA never fight outnumbered is to oversimplify combat in eve. You can have supperiour numbers but be tactically at a disadvantage where engaging would be suicide. Likewise we've managed to make kills when outnumbered 8 to 2 due to taking a chance when having a tactical advantage. As for when the war will be over, from our point of view it won't end until every last hostile has left venal/tenal and branch. Even then, I wouldn't expect people to forget what has happened easily, I can see this war dragging on for many many months. Then again, I guess the reverse logic will apply and the other side won't give in until the PA do.. Thus my reasons for saying this war will run and run. Thats all I'm going to post in this thread as I don't want to cause it to degenerate into a flame war.. If you want to flame me, you can send EVE-Mails to KIAHicks. Keenon: "After sitting in the system for FIVE hours without even a (go away)"...
Jade Constantia	Posted - 2004.07.03 00:54:00 - [135] Originally by: Zhuge Liang Please keep the thread on topic. Right Zhuge Liang. Lets get this straight. This thread has gone along the same lines as many others in recent weeks. The thread starter meant it honestly, many people responded to it honestly in the spirit expected. But some people have come here to troll and insult others. I don't need to name names and I am quite sure you are quite able to see where this thread has gone off the rails. I wonder exactly what the last but one post full of personal attack has to do with the subject though? The Great Northern War: 14 Day Commentary by Jade Constantine Jericho Fraction and Public Forum and introducing; LA MAISON DE TOUS LES PLAISIRS Gallente roleplaying and cultural exchange channel!
Jade Constantia	Posted - 2004.07.03 00:54:00 - [136] Originally by: Zhuge Liang Please keep the thread on topic. Right Zhuge Liang. Lets get this straight. This thread has gone along the same lines as many others in recent weeks. The thread starter meant it honestly, many people responded to it honestly in the spirit expected. But some people have come here to troll and insult others. I don't need to name names and I am quite sure you are quite able to see where this thread has gone off the rails. I wonder exactly what the last but one post full of personal attack has to do with the subject though? The Great Northern War: 14 Day Commentary by Jade Constantine Jericho Fraction and Public Forum and introducing; LA MAISON DE TOUS LES PLAISIRS Gallente roleplaying and cultural exchange channel!
Casey Jens	Posted - 2004.07.03 05:29:00 - [137] Well, its amazing what happens to an honest assessment of appearances and the promise of the future over a 24 hour period in a thread. At least I got to see spiderman2. -smiling. My post wasn't about dissecting the reasons 'why' things are as they are now as that has been done to death. It was about the future and the hope for resolution of some kind, or at least a dialogue. What I see is post after post of accusation and counter thrust that is common to all of the other threads related to this conflict. I've also noticed that some of the 'leaders' of these opposing factions have responded with intelligence and with the hope of that dialogue, although they too are seemingly more concerned about making sure that their view is known as the 'correct' one. My first post was to show how it is "perceived", not to get into a verbal conflict over whether it is ACCURATE or NOT. It is a GIVEN that each side views their 'story' as the true version of events. A wise man (woman?) once said that there is your side, my side, and then there is the truth floating somewhere in between. Some of the posters in this thread have mentioned how the war is GREAT! and wonderful, and from the perspective of the combat pilot, or pirate, or military commander, that is TRUE enough. If we were in "Planetside", that would be the end of it, but WE ARE NOT. We are in a universe of governments and factions and political powers that do not go away upon reset. To the leaders in this fight I say remember that fighting for fighting's sake isn't what EVE is about, and if it devolves into such, we have a much poorer place than before.
Casey Jens	Posted - 2004.07.03 05:29:00 - [138] Well, its amazing what happens to an honest assessment of appearances and the promise of the future over a 24 hour period in a thread. At least I got to see spiderman2. -smiling. My post wasn't about dissecting the reasons 'why' things are as they are now as that has been done to death. It was about the future and the hope for resolution of some kind, or at least a dialogue. What I see is post after post of accusation and counter thrust that is common to all of the other threads related to this conflict. I've also noticed that some of the 'leaders' of these opposing factions have responded with intelligence and with the hope of that dialogue, although they too are seemingly more concerned about making sure that their view is known as the 'correct' one. My first post was to show how it is "perceived", not to get into a verbal conflict over whether it is ACCURATE or NOT. It is a GIVEN that each side views their 'story' as the true version of events. A wise man (woman?) once said that there is your side, my side, and then there is the truth floating somewhere in between. Some of the posters in this thread have mentioned how the war is GREAT! and wonderful, and from the perspective of the combat pilot, or pirate, or military commander, that is TRUE enough. If we were in "Planetside", that would be the end of it, but WE ARE NOT. We are in a universe of governments and factions and political powers that do not go away upon reset. To the leaders in this fight I say remember that fighting for fighting's sake isn't what EVE is about, and if it devolves into such, we have a much poorer place than before.
Kalast Raven	Posted - 2004.07.03 06:16:00 - [139] If you havent been party to EVERY single combat engagement and EVERY single meeting of both sides internal and diplomatically, you DO NOT know the whole story and have no claim to being a fountain of truth. All you know is what you've seen and what you've heard. To claim otherwise isn't valid. Keep in mind we are on both sides reasonable people, with real reasons for disliking each other. I'd advise everyone to take a step back and make sure your reasons still make sense. ------- K. Raven
Kalast Raven	Posted - 2004.07.03 06:16:00 - [140] If you havent been party to EVERY single combat engagement and EVERY single meeting of both sides internal and diplomatically, you DO NOT know the whole story and have no claim to being a fountain of truth. All you know is what you've seen and what you've heard. To claim otherwise isn't valid. Keep in mind we are on both sides reasonable people, with real reasons for disliking each other. I'd advise everyone to take a step back and make sure your reasons still make sense. ------- K. Raven
Ly'sol	Posted - 2004.07.03 08:36:00 - [141] Lets look at things from this stand point. CDI was the catyalest of the fight. Phoenix Alliance, Im calling your members out on what exactly they want. NCA terms on this are clear. However, With the respect that no one can "claim" Venal. I am willing to look at PA disbanding completly as a little extreme. I am looking at this as simple as I can get it. But first I must admit that NVA made my life miserable for awhile ingame. So I have no love of the corperations in power. I also have no enjoyment in seeing countless hours of developement and comradory being attacked and forced to submit. PA made a promise to discipline one of thier members who got out of line. This did not happen. So it sparked this conflict. Personally I would be happy to simply see a sincere apology from PA leadership for thier lack of responsiblity and action. And this apology must be material as a show of sincerity and mutual respect. Be it in a cash settlement, or one which will open the doors of progress. Both our sides want to see Venal succeed. As proof of this, I would like to see the PA council submit themselves to a collective podkilling from the originally injured party from RKK. Why do I ask this? Becuase they are responsible for thier member corps actions, Becuase they are responsible for thier lack of action and finally they are responsible for each and every PA member losses. And probally worst of all they are responsible for the smearing of thier Alliance name to one that is not to be trusted. Let the leaders show themselves willing to sacrifice for thier alliance rather than delgateing others to do so or useing alts to do thier dirty work, doing an act such as this is cheap and cost effective. In a famous quote. "If you dont got respect, you dont got nothing." Its not that hard to say "I ****** up sorry, what can I do to make it up.". Regardless though it doesnt matter not to me if you even will think of the possiblity of it. NCA doesnt hate you, they simply want you to take responsiblity and grow into a more dynamic and STABLE alliance. -------------------------- Vist the Jericho Fraction Forums
Ly'sol	Posted - 2004.07.03 08:36:00 - [142] Lets look at things from this stand point. CDI was the catyalest of the fight. Phoenix Alliance, Im calling your members out on what exactly they want. NCA terms on this are clear. However, With the respect that no one can "claim" Venal. I am willing to look at PA disbanding completly as a little extreme. I am looking at this as simple as I can get it. But first I must admit that NVA made my life miserable for awhile ingame. So I have no love of the corperations in power. I also have no enjoyment in seeing countless hours of developement and comradory being attacked and forced to submit. PA made a promise to discipline one of thier members who got out of line. This did not happen. So it sparked this conflict. Personally I would be happy to simply see a sincere apology from PA leadership for thier lack of responsiblity and action. And this apology must be material as a show of sincerity and mutual respect. Be it in a cash settlement, or one which will open the doors of progress. Both our sides want to see Venal succeed. As proof of this, I would like to see the PA council submit themselves to a collective podkilling from the originally injured party from RKK. Why do I ask this? Becuase they are responsible for thier member corps actions, Becuase they are responsible for thier lack of action and finally they are responsible for each and every PA member losses. And probally worst of all they are responsible for the smearing of thier Alliance name to one that is not to be trusted. Let the leaders show themselves willing to sacrifice for thier alliance rather than delgateing others to do so or useing alts to do thier dirty work, doing an act such as this is cheap and cost effective. In a famous quote. "If you dont got respect, you dont got nothing." Its not that hard to say "I ****** up sorry, what can I do to make it up.". Regardless though it doesnt matter not to me if you even will think of the possiblity of it. NCA doesnt hate you, they simply want you to take responsiblity and grow into a more dynamic and STABLE alliance. -------------------------- Vist the Jericho Fraction Forums
Hawkings SJ	Posted - 2004.07.03 09:00:00 - [143] Lol I know where this thread went wrong, its when someone decided to jump from the NCA/PA war to IC/OOC.
Hawkings SJ	Posted - 2004.07.03 09:00:00 - [144] Lol I know where this thread went wrong, its when someone decided to jump from the NCA/PA war to IC/OOC.
Jade Constantia	Posted - 2004.07.03 14:15:00 - [145] Edited by: Jade Constantia on 03/07/2004 20:15:34 Originally by: Hawkings SJ Lol I know where this thread went wrong, its when someone decided to jump from the NCA/PA war to IC/OOC. Where it went wrong was when you chose to declare the lie that one of our members had been forced to leave our corp from a fictious bout of station camping. Since I knew the story and you were taking the mickey with the usual substance free "I-don't-fight-in-the-war (but-still-talk-crap-about-those-that-do)" nonsense, I called you on it. I now notice that while you have editted away your initial statement you continue to support the argument without the attendent fictious claim. Sad act to be honest. Your debating stance is as unimpressive as your combat record. The Great Northern War: 14 Day Commentary by Jade Constantine Jericho Fraction and Public Forum and introducing; LA MAISON DE TOUS LES PLAISIRS Gallente roleplaying and cultural exchange channel!
Jade Constantia	Posted - 2004.07.03 14:15:00 - [146] Edited by: Jade Constantia on 03/07/2004 20:15:34 Originally by: Hawkings SJ Lol I know where this thread went wrong, its when someone decided to jump from the NCA/PA war to IC/OOC. Where it went wrong was when you chose to declare the lie that one of our members had been forced to leave our corp from a fictious bout of station camping. Since I knew the story and you were taking the mickey with the usual substance free "I-don't-fight-in-the-war (but-still-talk-crap-about-those-that-do)" nonsense, I called you on it. I now notice that while you have editted away your initial statement you continue to support the argument without the attendent fictious claim. Sad act to be honest. Your debating stance is as unimpressive as your combat record. The Great Northern War: 14 Day Commentary by Jade Constantine Jericho Fraction and Public Forum and introducing; LA MAISON DE TOUS LES PLAISIRS Gallente roleplaying and cultural exchange channel!
Trianon Starstealer	Posted - 2004.07.03 15:09:00 - [147] Edited by: Trianon Starstealer on 03/07/2004 15:10:57 edited a spelling mistake An honest post that deserves an honest answer. Speaking for myself..... I really don't think it matters any more.... I think your supercilious attitude and the contumelious statements of your allance corps in general have proven you really don't care either. Bottom line is... we think you are as wrong as you think we are...... I doubt anything will ever change that.
Trianon Starstealer	Posted - 2004.07.03 15:09:00 - [148] Edited by: Trianon Starstealer on 03/07/2004 15:10:57 edited a spelling mistake An honest post that deserves an honest answer. Speaking for myself..... I really don't think it matters any more.... I think your supercilious attitude and the contumelious statements of your allance corps in general have proven you really don't care either. Bottom line is... we think you are as wrong as you think we are...... I doubt anything will ever change that.
LLeBRing	Posted - 2004.07.03 15:19:00 - [149] Originally by: Trianon Starstealer I think your supercilious attitude and the contumelious statements of your allance corps in general have proven you really don't care either. Tria, bud, I can't believe you are making me break out the dictionary.... wtf does supercilious and contumelious mean?? good lord! Nuttin but corn bread en chicken for this fella
LLeBRing	Posted - 2004.07.03 15:19:00 - [150] Originally by: Trianon Starstealer I think your supercilious attitude and the contumelious statements of your allance corps in general have proven you really don't care either. Tria, bud, I can't believe you are making me break out the dictionary.... wtf does supercilious and contumelious mean?? good lord! Nuttin but corn bread en chicken for this fella

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