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Newtstadamus
Etoilles Mortant Ltd. Solyaris Chtonium
0
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 10:59:00 -
[1] - Quote
It's not my post so all praise goes to MeatCarpet, this is just too good to sit in reddit and never go anywhere.
http://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/rs6fm/what_the_ui_desperately_needs_self_calibrating/ |

Dorn Val
Probe Patrol Project Wildfire
30
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 12:28:00 -
[2] - Quote
I wish I could click on "Like" a few hundred times for this idea!!
Needs some ironing out, but it sure beats looking at angular velocity in "spreadsheet mode"... Just like there is no I in Team there is no Fair in Eve... |

hmskrecik
TransMine Group German Information Network Alliance
14
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Posted - 2012.04.04 12:37:00 -
[3] - Quote
Would be nice to have something like that. |

Daktar Jaxs
Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation
7
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Posted - 2012.04.04 14:06:00 -
[4] - Quote
I would rather not see anything like this in the game. The information is already available, but you need to work it out for yourself. Something like this takes a task which the player must do and moves that process so the client does it for them. It would lower the skill ceiling of the game, particularly for small scale combat. |

Crimson Tear
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 14:10:00 -
[5] - Quote
OP of Reddit post here. I've updated the concept to include some improvements. Gradients with lines to represent falloff would probably be a better representation, but you get the idea.
http://i.imgur.com/7D1K1.jpg |

Newtstadamus
Etoilles Mortant Ltd. Solyaris Chtonium
4
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 14:36:00 -
[6] - Quote
Daktar Jaxs wrote:I would rather not see anything like this in the game. The information is already available, but you need to work it out for yourself. Something like this takes a task which the player must do and moves that process so the client does it for them. It would lower the skill ceiling of the game, particularly for small scale combat.
In the end it is still a game and more info is always better then hard to interpret info, when I was new to the game trying to figure out why my guns weren't doing damage was pretty frustrating, I was in range but my tracking was too slow ect. This wouldn't change anything since the info is already there it would just make it not suck to use the information. |

Ro'Kera
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
14
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 15:52:00 -
[7] - Quote
To everybody saying "this is already available in the overview you should all just learn to use it" -- your opinion is bad and you should feel bad.
If you really want to spend all your time in game looking at this, I guess I won't stop you, but I'd rather log in and look at something like this. I'm entirely in support of this concept. |

Sarah Ichinumi
Red Core Paradigm Shift Alliance
1
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 16:44:00 -
[8] - Quote
This sounds like easy mode and is a TERRIBLE idea. (Edit: This is a great idea, just read my last Edit on this post.)
You have a distance column and transversal velocity column on your overview. Use them, and your knowledge of your ship's weapon systems.
Next thing you know people will want a green light that lights up when people are within tackle range and not tackled by anyone.
Edit: For those of you who don't know what the hell you're talking about, here's a brief explanation of how tracking works with transversal:
Tracking is a number in RADIANS PER SECOND. That's a number like 0.1 rad/sec. This is the maximum rate of rotation of your guns.
Transversal is a number in METERS PER SECOND. That's a number like 500 m/sec. This is the transversal component of your target's velocity, relative to you.
THESE TWO THINGS CANNOT BE COMPARED DIRECTLY. A THIRD PIECE OF INFORMATION IS NEEDED:
Distance is a number in METERS. That's a number like 23km. This is the actual raw distance between you and your target.
You need ALL THREE numbers in order to figure out if your guns will track. The farther you are, the less tracking you need for the same transversal, and vice versa.
The problem with the OP's suggestion is not that information is displayed clearly, it's that it does the thinking FOR THE PLAYER and spits it out in a nice easy "will it track?" bar. Clear information is not a problem, but turning transversal into "will it track" is an absolutely terrible idea.
There is a high skill cap to PvP in Eve, and this mechanic is an essential part of it. Deal with it.
Edit: Whoa, just realized there's an angular velocity column, must've been added after I started. Welp, never mind, OP's suggestion is great. |

Newtstadamus
Etoilles Mortant Ltd. Solyaris Chtonium
8
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 16:49:00 -
[9] - Quote
An I crazy or did you just win this argument for why it SHOULD be implemented? |

Crimson Tear
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
3
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 16:49:00 -
[10] - Quote
Sarah Ichinumi wrote:This sounds like easy mode and is a TERRIBLE idea.
You have a distance column and transversal velocity column on your overview. Use them, and your knowledge of your ship's weapon systems.
Next thing you know people will want a green light that lights up when people are within tackle range and not tackled by anyone.
Edit: For those of you who don't know what the hell you're talking about, here's a brief explanation of how tracking works with transversal:
Tracking is a number in RADIANS PER SECOND. That's a number like 0.1 rad/sec. This is the maximum rate of rotation of your guns.
Transversal is a number in METERS PER SECOND. That's a number like 500 m/sec. This is the transversal component of your target's velocity, relative to you.
THESE TWO THINGS CANNOT BE COMPARED DIRECTLY. A THIRD PIECE OF INFORMATION IS NEEDED:
Distance is a number in METERS. That's a number like 23km. This is the actual raw distance between you and your target.
You need ALL THREE numbers in order to figure out if your guns will track. The farther you are, the less tracking you need for the same transversal, and vice versa.
The problem with the OP's suggestion is not that information is displayed clearly, it's that it does the thinking FOR THE PLAYER and spits it out in a nice easy "will it track?" bar. Clear information is not a problem, but turning transversal into "will it track" is an absolutely terrible idea.
There is a high skill cap to PvP in Eve, and this mechanic is an essential part of it. Deal with it.
That, or you can just look at angular velocity, which can also be shown in a column on the Overview. Comparing turret tracking in turret info directly to angular velocity is indeed very difficult. I see how you might think that makes the game difficult. |

Sarah Ichinumi
Red Core Paradigm Shift Alliance
1
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 16:53:00 -
[11] - Quote
Crimson Tear wrote:That, or you can just look at angular velocity, which can also be shown in a column on the Overview. Comparing turret tracking in turret info directly to angular velocity is indeed very difficult. I see how you might think that makes the game difficult.
Heh, just learnt of this column myself. OP's suggestion is great. |

Crimson Tear
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
3
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 17:08:00 -
[12] - Quote
Sarah Ichinumi wrote:Crimson Tear wrote:That, or you can just look at angular velocity, which can also be shown in a column on the Overview. Comparing turret tracking in turret info directly to angular velocity is indeed very difficult. I see how you might think that makes the game difficult. Heh, just learnt of this column myself. OP's suggestion is great. Edit: NO, NVM. It still removes the requirement for people to learn their own guns' tracking. Still a terrible idea.
Indeed, right clicking the module is hard as hell. What separates the best PvP'ers from everyone else is that they know the capabilities of their opponents. The information about your own ship is already right there for you, it's that encyclopedic knowledge of other ships and modules that makes the difference. |

WolfeReign
T.O.R. STR8NGE BREW
1
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Posted - 2012.04.04 17:13:00 -
[13] - Quote
Ro'Kera wrote:To everybody saying "this is already available in the overview you should all just learn to use it" -- your opinion is bad and you should feel bad. If you really want to spend all your time in game looking at this, I guess I won't stop you, but I'd rather log in and look at something like this. I'm entirely in support of this concept.
+1, I would rather be able to enjoy more of the beauty of the game then have my overview take up almost my entire screen |

Sarah Ichinumi
Red Core Paradigm Shift Alliance
1
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 17:13:00 -
[14] - Quote
Crimson Tear wrote:Indeed, right clicking the module is hard as hell. What separates the best PvP'ers from everyone else is that they know the capabilities of their opponents. The information about your own ship is already right there for you, it's that encyclopedic knowledge of other ships and modules that makes the difference.
Exactly. This encyclopedic knowledge of Eve is what separates expert players from experienced players from new players. It takes people years to learn all of this stuff, and now you want to just condense it all into "red = can't shoot, green = can shoot."
Terrible. Absolutely terrible idea. Next thing you know, there's a red outline around ships that aren't tackled by anything and "Show Info" on modules will just be removed from the game. |

Newtstadamus
Etoilles Mortant Ltd. Solyaris Chtonium
8
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 17:19:00 -
[15] - Quote
Sarah Ichinumi wrote:Crimson Tear wrote:Indeed, right clicking the module is hard as hell. What separates the best PvP'ers from everyone else is that they know the capabilities of their opponents. The information about your own ship is already right there for you, it's that encyclopedic knowledge of other ships and modules that makes the difference. Exactly. This encyclopedic knowledge of Eve is what separates expert players from experienced players from new players. It takes people years to learn all of this stuff, and now you want to just condense it all into "red = can't shoot, green = can shoot." Terrible. Absolutely terrible idea. Next thing you know, there's a red outline around ships that aren't tackled by anything and "Show Info" on modules will just be removed from the game.
Making stuff hard for no reason when there is a better alternative doesn't make sense, yeah the way it works now is ok but it would be like me complaining that people don't use manual lawn mowers anymore because they are more manly and riding mowers are girly. Making stuff easier to use is good. |

Sarah Ichinumi
Red Core Paradigm Shift Alliance
1
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 17:23:00 -
[16] - Quote
Newtstadamus wrote:Making stuff hard for no reason when there is a better alternative doesn't make sense, yeah the way it works now is ok but it would be like me complaining that people don't use manual lawn mowers anymore because they are more manly and riding mowers are girly. Making stuff easier to use is good.
The problem isn't making stuff easier to use, it's doing the thinking for the player. If the OP's suggestion was just a visual way to display the target's range and angular velocity, that's fine - it's the built-in comparison to your OWN guns' tracking and optimal that is the problem. |

Newtstadamus
Etoilles Mortant Ltd. Solyaris Chtonium
9
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 17:30:00 -
[17] - Quote
Sarah Ichinumi wrote:Newtstadamus wrote:Making stuff hard for no reason when there is a better alternative doesn't make sense, yeah the way it works now is ok but it would be like me complaining that people don't use manual lawn mowers anymore because they are more manly and riding mowers are girly. Making stuff easier to use is good. The problem isn't making stuff easier to use, it's doing the thinking for the player. If the OP's suggestion was just a visual way to display the target's range and angular velocity, that's fine - it's the built-in comparison to your OWN guns' tracking and optimal that is the problem.
You know you can right click a gate and hit jump so I don't have to think to warp to the gate and then jump, I don't have to individually repair sections of my armor I can just click on button and suddenly my whole ship is fixed, the idea that this thinks for the player is ridiculous, the information is there it just sucks to use, this would fx it. |

Ike Erata
State War Academy Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 17:34:00 -
[18] - Quote
Sarah Ichinumi wrote:Newtstadamus wrote:Making stuff hard for no reason when there is a better alternative doesn't make sense, yeah the way it works now is ok but it would be like me complaining that people don't use manual lawn mowers anymore because they are more manly and riding mowers are girly. Making stuff easier to use is good. The problem isn't making stuff easier to use, it's doing the thinking for the player. If the OP's suggestion was just a visual way to display the target's range and angular velocity, that's fine - it's the built-in comparison to your OWN guns' tracking and optimal that is the problem.
So by your logic if you could right click to 'set tracking speed', 'set optimal', and 'set falloff' like we do for orbit and range it'd be ok to change the UI as per OP? |

Crimson Tear
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
5
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 17:46:00 -
[19] - Quote
Sarah Ichinumi wrote:Newtstadamus wrote:Making stuff hard for no reason when there is a better alternative doesn't make sense, yeah the way it works now is ok but it would be like me complaining that people don't use manual lawn mowers anymore because they are more manly and riding mowers are girly. Making stuff easier to use is good. The problem isn't making stuff easier to use, it's doing the thinking for the player. If the OP's suggestion was just a visual way to display the target's range and angular velocity, that's fine - it's the built-in comparison to your OWN guns' tracking and optimal that is the problem.
Is this really such a big difference?
http://i.imgur.com/GIfZh.jpg |

Jonathan Malcom
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
79
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 17:46:00 -
[20] - Quote
Memorizing the range and tracking for your weapons does not take skill.
This is not dumbing down the game. Presenting the information to the player in a way that is easy to access and understand is the purpose of the UI. The skill comes in determining what to do with that information.
If you engage a ship that you can't track, this change will not allow you to track them any better. It'll just show you why you're getting your **** stomped. Which is the purpose of the UI. |

Newtstadamus
Etoilles Mortant Ltd. Solyaris Chtonium
18
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 18:32:00 -
[21] - Quote
Jonathan Malcom wrote:Memorizing the range and tracking for your weapons does not take skill.
This is not dumbing down the game. Presenting the information to the player in a way that is easy to access and understand is the purpose of the UI. The skill comes in determining what to do with that information.
If you engage a ship that you can't track, this change will not allow you to track them any better. It'll just show you why you're getting your **** stomped. Which is the purpose of the UI.
Exactly. Everything you said. I'm not eloquent enough to say it so thank you. |

Valea Silpha
Abyssal Heavy Industries Narwhals Ate My Duck
49
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 19:26:00 -
[22] - Quote
I absolutely agree with the the idea here.
The reason for this is that in general terms, tracking in Eve, while being based on some very long numbers, and having multiple degrees of depth, normally breaks down to being 'can hit' and 'can not hit'.
99% of the time, tracking just doesn't factor into fights for a few reasons. In gang fights, a primary is going to be webbed and scrammed, and you are going to be able to hit the guy. Outside of that, tracking falls broadly into small guns (can hit anything), medium guns (can hit cruisers and slow/far away frigs) and large guns (can hit bs, slow cruiser and immobile frigs). And people apply their guns accordingly. The difference between the tracking on blasters, ACs and pulses is largely irrelevant. Same for rails, arties and beams. It works the same on the other end. Frigs and nano-cruisers always move at top speed, because it is essentially impossible to figure out how to only be inside your tracking by a fraction.
This FAR easier to use approach to tracking allows that difference to become much, much more useful to you. You can see if your guns actually could hit that frigate who is out at range, for example. You can push your tracking advantage to its extreme by going just fast enough to still be able to track the target, knowing he can't track you.
This kinda feature gives people the tools to push small advantages in tracking speed or maneuverability or speed. I've been in quite a few BS slugging matches and there is distressingly little movement happening. Minmatar ships kite, again, because they can OBVIOUSLY do that to decrease damage. But that's it really, because a lot of the time moving at all hurts you as much as it does the other guy. You don't have a genuine feeling of where the boundary of your tracking lies, and that knowledge can be very empowering, particularly to the non-mini ships.
Finally, a solid understanding of when you a missing the target by miles, and when you are missing by a fraction, would also be very useful. If he's WAY too fast, well, at least you KNOW you can't hit him, and you'll need to figure out an escape plan. However, if you are only just missing him, then that gives you a chance to counter with your own movement.
More information coming out of spreadsheet form and into an easy to use, but challenging to turn into an advantage form is the stuff that can't fail to improve the game. Im sure that some people have complained at extreme length about staticmapper and dotlan and similar tools that make eve too easy. But those kind of sites prove that well presented information can radically improve the experience of the game. For a lot of people, the tools have no relevance or interest, but that's no excuse for not having the the information out there for us to turn into awesome plans, or at least use to better apply the mechanics.
This in no way makes things easier, it just helps us understand hat is happening, and to take the relevant actions. It's like having a parking sensor on a car. They don't make driving a car easier, and in fact you definitely don't need one. It just gives you data that you already have access to in a way that is comfortable.
I know I have totally rambled. But this idea is amazing, and should be implemented. |

Zyress
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
43
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 19:51:00 -
[23] - Quote
Daktar Jaxs wrote:I would rather not see anything like this in the game. The information is already available, but you need to work it out for yourself. Something like this takes a task which the player must do and moves that process so the client does it for them. It would lower the skill ceiling of the game, particularly for small scale combat.
Yes the information is available if you set up your overview right, but I know I miss a lot of scenery and explosions and special effects watching my overview and tracking numbers. The physics of getting in position to make a good shot does not change if the display of the data you use to get there looks better and is more intuitive to read. It'll make a lot of pilots better and isn't a good fight what you are always looking for anyway? I think this improvement might go a long way to move more of the subscription base towards Pvp as it will be a great confidence builder, but tactics and bringing the right ship will still win the battle. They'll just have a clear idea of why they lost. |

Rikki Sals
State War Academy Caldari State
36
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 19:58:00 -
[24] - Quote
Really like this idea. The general lack of UI elements like this in EVE is likely a large part of why it doesn't retain a lot of people who might otherwise really enjoy its combat. Let's face it, thinking about two points in liquid-space moving around each other, while staring at a spreadsheet of numbers describing this, isn't exactly the most gripping gameplay out there. The more UI elements there are to better illustrate all the mechanics that are really in play, the more absorbing the combat will be for a larger audience. And all without actually changing any existing mechanics. The numbers are all still there for people to pour over, and the strategy just a deep. |

FeralShadow
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
75
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 21:20:00 -
[25] - Quote
Crimson Tear wrote:Indeed, right clicking the module is hard as hell. What separates the best PvP'ers from everyone else is that they know the capabilities of their opponents. The information about your own ship is already right there for you, it's that encyclopedic knowledge of other ships and modules that makes the difference.
Couldn't have said it better myself. This is where the True Skill comes from. More people need to see this. Anything that improves the UI is +1. Successful "carebear" attitudes:-áhttps://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=37279 |

Deneth Vakorum
Space Junk LLC
0
|
Posted - 2012.04.04 21:42:00 -
[26] - Quote
This is a fantastic idea. So much could be done with the targeting display we currently have and this is an excellent first step. It may lower the skill ceiling, but only in your ability to quickly scan a list of tiny decimal values, and I think we can agree, that's not a very intuitive way to fly a spaceship. Putting these bars in (and perhaps other similar ones), would still leave plenty of room for a healthy skill gradient.
Besides, you'd only have these nifty bars after you've taken the time to target someone. You still have to know who in that overview you're going to be able to hit, this just lets you have better second-to-second feedback once you have. |

Dorn Val
Probe Patrol Project Wildfire
33
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 05:25:00 -
[27] - Quote
Jonathan Malcom wrote:Memorizing the range and tracking for your weapons does not take skill.
This is not dumbing down the game. Presenting the information to the player in a way that is easy to access and understand is the purpose of the UI. The skill comes in determining what to do with that information.
If you engage a ship that you can't track, this change will not allow you to track them any better. It'll just show you why you're getting your **** stomped. Which is the purpose of the UI.
Very well said!
Just like there is no I in Team there is no Fair in Eve... |

Dorn Val
Probe Patrol Project Wildfire
33
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 05:44:00 -
[28] - Quote
Rikki Sals wrote:Really like this idea. The general lack of UI elements like this in EVE is likely a large part of why it doesn't retain a lot of people who might otherwise really enjoy its combat. Let's face it, thinking about two points in liquid-space moving around each other, while staring at a spreadsheet of numbers describing this, isn't exactly the most gripping gameplay out there. The more UI elements there are to better illustrate all the mechanics that are really in play, the more absorbing the combat will be for a larger audience. And all without actually changing any existing mechanics. The numbers are all still there for people to pour over, and the strategy just a deep.
Very well said -you're someone who obviously "gets it"! +1 Just like there is no I in Team there is no Fair in Eve... |

DarkAegix
Acetech Systems
1071
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 06:12:00 -
[29] - Quote
I'm a tad confused by the second picture ( http://i.imgur.com/ipcUF.jpg ) Can the creator of it explain why the left side of the range bar is red? Turrets don't have minimum range in EVE. |

hmskrecik
TransMine Group German Information Network Alliance
16
|
Posted - 2012.04.05 08:41:00 -
[30] - Quote
I'd like to also point out that lore wise this capsule thing is all about channelling necessary and relevant information to single human being so she/he can act in human-machine unity. Presenting vital gun info in symbolic way goes along this line. Reading OOB database info doesn't.
P.S. Point in case: contemporary planes use avionics which try to show pilot as much information as possible in as least intrusive way as possible. Expecting pilot to look up the flying manual during maneuvers would be ridiculous. I know EVE is not RL, but this world is supposed to be MORE advanced than ours. |
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