| Pages: [1] 2 :: one page |
| Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Kunming
T.H.U.G L.I.F.E
White Core
   |
Posted - 2008.11.06 09:26:00 -
[1]
I recently had a look at the stealth bombers and tried to pin point their conceptual flaws:
First of all it is a frigate that deals huge alpha DMG compared to its size, infact it deals double the alpha of a pulse abaddon. This might look interesting at first but checking out the stats reveals that the bombers barely have the survival advantages a frigate usually has (low sig, high speed).
To compensate the above mentioned weakness bombers are given cloakes, but these cloaks dont allow u to get on the target cloaked and strike an ambush. It might help to cloak after the attack but then you'r slowboating in your own bombs explosion radius. The improved cloak is not very useful but a covert ops cloak could make the ship overpowered.
Now to a more important problem, the bombs, the max number of bombs you can deploy is 6 before they start blowing each other up, that means a 48k RAW alpha DMG. Each bomb costs around 8-10mils, thats 60mils deployed in bombs. 48k DMG is approx. as much as a LVL 1 doomsday device fired on you, firing the DD costs half the price of 6 bombs. 48k DMG is nowhere near popping a BS (which usually has 80-120k EHPs), that means u need at least 2 bombing runs to kill a BS which will probably warp off after the first strike. Anything smaller will fall under the explosion radius of the bomb and evade the DMG.
To sum it up:
- Bombers are weak as a frigate hull
- Bombers are not stealthy
- Bombs are not strong enough to make bombing viable
- Bombs are not cheap enough to make bombing viable
- Risk vs reward broken
- Cost vs reward broken over other alternatives
Optimal situation scenario for bombing:
Target 6 BSs vs 6 Bombers with max skills - Bombers fit with bomb lncher, MWD, OD and I-stab
BSs sit on a gate and have just aggressed recently so they cant get away, bombers warp at 15km uncloaked (or on top with cov ops assitance), launch bombs, make a 180¦ turn, activate MWD and hit cloak. Now they are cloaked and out of blast radius, uncloaking and hitting warp will make em get out, all fine so far. But what happens is that bombs explode, BSs jump to the otherside or warp off, repair and u have just wasted 60mils. You could have scored kills with an alternative gang of RR BSs or mix some ECM in with high DPS buffer tanked BSs and get a better result. Not to mention gate camps usually have a fast locker that will ruin your bombing gang in a couple secs.
My pulse abaddon deals 4k DMG in alpha and 1k DPS, in 8 seconds into the fight it has already outdmged the bomber. Alright it has probably 4-5 times the cost of the bomber in ship and module costs but then again it has 120k EHP as opposed to the 1.7k EHP from the bomber.
SOLUTIONs:
Its a very complicated matter indeed, since the bombers actually share the same problems as the arty ships, being that ALPHA dmg is not viable for any tactical manuver anymore (since the HP boost patch).
Upping the bomb dmg would mean that 6 bombers will be able to blow up a gate camp of BSs of any number.
Giving them the cov ops cloak could result in bombers becoming invulnerable, but IMO this is still the best option as they will be very vulnerable in the time window they uncloak trying to get the bomb to the target and get out.
Reducing bomb costs to 1-2mils per bomb, this has to be done in any case IMO, the dmg is nothing extra ordinary and for the price of a bomb you could fit a gank thorax and deal the same DMG before blowing up.
OR having a complete revamp, changing bomb mechanics, or giving bombers citadel launchers, or also giving them a stealth module (instead of cloak) which reduces their sig radius to 5-10m2 while being unable to warp, or use any module, but still lock.
The Bomber doctrine is a favourite in many sci-fi and naval/air combat scenes/themes, but its seriously flawed in EVE and DESPERATELY in need of some dev attention.
Thx for reading now to the comments
|
Eka Lawrencia
Gallente
|
Posted - 2008.11.06 09:51:00 -
[2]
I understand bombs as a combined arms weapon. You might not kill the battleship, but doing 40000 damage per enemy ship gives the rest of your fleet a much easier time, because half of their hp is gone already. You can also use them repeatedly or combine with neut/ECM bombs.
I can't say I agree with anything the OP says. Especially the "bombers are not stealthy" viewpoint. Positioning is important, and bombers can do that at their leisure.
|
Dr Sheepbringer
|
Posted - 2008.11.06 09:55:00 -
[3]
My ideas how they should be (some of these they already do, but just a general list of what SB's should be able to do).
- Kill frigate size vessels with a single salvo.
- Cause SERIOUS damage to cruisers (aka, going to hull)
- BC's + BS should also get a decent dent, but nothing too fatal with a single salvo.
If you think about submarines in real life. They come from nowhere and suddenly there is a torpedo in the water. Those babies did holes in biggers ships and caused a major problem (didn't sink it, but problems). You can have loads of armor and protection but torpedos mostly caused a hole (some ships do have enough armor to prevent puncture). I would like to see that SB's would get a direct HULL damage bonus. No just "after the armor, after the shields", but a straightforward hit into the hull.
SB's should definetly be stealthy untill the launch after engaging the stealthy operation would go out from the window. At the moment they are too instapop. They should have some sort of jamming/evasive manouvering. Still pretty much on the lines of 2 salvos after that you are REALLY REALLY in the suicide time. At the moment you are toast if you don't instajump after launch. I think they should be able to target while cloaked. They could have a really long targeting time so that one couldn't take advantage of VERY high alpha in normal pvp action. Force the SB role.
But the main thing i would like to see is the straight hull damage. 
|
Kunming
T.H.U.G L.I.F.E
White Core
|
Posted - 2008.11.06 10:25:00 -
[4]
 Originally by: Eka Lawrencia
I understand bombs as a combined arms weapon. You might not kill the battleship, but doing 40000 damage per enemy ship gives the rest of your fleet a much easier time, because half of their hp is gone already. You can also use them repeatedly or combine with neut/ECM bombs.
I can't say I agree with anything the OP says. Especially the "bombers are not stealthy" viewpoint. Positioning is important, and bombers can do that at their leisure.
I wasnt advocating that bombers should insta pop BSs, but lets say u have 6 bombers and 6 BSs vs 12 BSs, you will have a 12 DMGed BS vs 6 BS fight which will end in some dmged ships being killed in the first minute and the 6 BS dying on the other side; REMEMBER a dmged ship can still deal MAX dmg. I definetly agree that they are a gang warfare tool, not a solo pwn thing, no ship should be too effective without support from different class' of ships.
Then there is the price issue for what they do, deal 8k RAW DMG, u could do that with cheaper alternatives.
Using them repeatedly is also not that viable, since there is a long cool down period in which the dmged ships can simply get out of the scene.
Positioning IS a problem since u'll have to warp in uncloaked, which takes off the ambush factor. Infact I fit my bombers without a cloak since its just warp in launch bomb and get out.
ECM bombs have their uses in fleets but Neut bombs are not much of use with most ppl fitting cap boosters.
My point is that the concept is flawed, you get in close with a weak ship to do what you could do with a close range dmg dealer, alright you have the area effect factor but realistically no gang sits tight in a 15km radius.
IMO bombs should be slow moving missiles, fired from mid ranges, that can be locked and shot down by small turrets/missiles, which otherwise deal insane dmg to a SINGLE target on impact, this gives small ships a support role to protect the bigger ships and will sorta force gangs to be of mixed nature rather than a monotone blob of BSs or HACs or whatever the new FOTM will be. It will add more tactics for sure
|
Murina
The Scope
|
Posted - 2008.11.06 10:31:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Dr Sheepbringer
My ideas how they should be (some of these they already do, but just a general list of what SB's should be able to do).
- Kill frigate size vessels with a single salvo.
LOL A I-WIN FRIG CLASS?...YEA RIGHT.
Originally by: Dr Sheepbringer
- Cause SERIOUS damage to cruisers (aka, going to hull)
So 2 SB insta pop a cruiser?.....KEEP DREAMING.
Originally by: Dr Sheepbringer
- BC's + BS should also get a decent dent, but nothing too fatal with a single salvo.
3 insta pop a BC?....
You are utterly deranged.
|
Chimii Lecto
Gallente
|
Posted - 2008.11.06 10:39:00 -
[6]
Bombers are fine for their role.
No you cant use it as th usual in-your-face killing machine.
Go search for Stealth Bomber on youtube and get some ideas from the series there.
----------
/Pretty Posting. |
Ratchman
|
Posted - 2008.11.06 10:50:00 -
[7]
I would like to see Stealth Bombers be able to use the Cov Ops Cloaking Device, as this would make them true stealth bombers. At the moment, you have to warp uncloaked, which does defeat the purpose of an ambush.
Aside from that, I seem to use them just fine. They can work quite well in conjunction with other ships.
|
Eka Lawrencia
Gallente
|
Posted - 2008.11.06 10:56:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Kunming
I wasnt advocating that bombers should insta pop BSs, but lets say u have 6 bombers and 6 BSs vs 12 BSs, you will have a 12 DMGed BS vs 6 BS fight which will end in some dmged ships being killed in the first minute and the 6 BS dying on the other side; REMEMBER a dmged ship can still deal MAX dmg. I definetly agree that they are a gang warfare tool, not a solo pwn thing, no ship should be too effective without support from different class' of ships.
Then there is the price issue for what they do, deal 8k RAW DMG, u could do that with cheaper alternatives.
Using them repeatedly is also not that viable, since there is a long cool down period in which the dmged ships can simply get out of the scene.
Positioning IS a problem since u'll have to warp in uncloaked, which takes off the ambush factor. Infact I fit my bombers without a cloak since its just warp in launch bomb and get out.
ECM bombs have their uses in fleets but Neut bombs are not much of use with most ppl fitting cap boosters.
My point is that the concept is flawed, you get in close with a weak ship to do what you could do with a close range dmg dealer, alright you have the area effect factor but realistically no gang sits tight in a 15km radius.
IMO bombs should be slow moving missiles, fired from mid ranges, that can be locked and shot down by small turrets/missiles, which otherwise deal insane dmg to a SINGLE target on impact, this gives small ships a support role to protect the bigger ships and will sorta force gangs to be of mixed nature rather than a monotone blob of BSs or HACs or whatever the new FOTM will be. It will add more tactics for sure[)
Damaged ships are destroyed more quickly and then they won't do more damage. Not everybody fits a cap booster. Often battles last long enough to drop a second bomb. You can also choose bomb damage types. Bombers can fit bombs + cruise missiles. Not every ship is a BS. 6 bombers can alpha anti-support ships like the long range Muninns, Zealots or Eagles with cruises since they can choose damage type. Ships warping out do no damage and leave their mates to die. I don't know any other ship that can do 50,000 or more damage in a few seconds apart from a Titan. Fleets are no all in a 15km radius, but spreading out makes them vulnerable to other forms of attack, and often there are ships bunched together regardless.
You can decloak and kill ships even when they do see you warp in before. Happens all the time.
|
Naomi Knight
Amarr
Imperial Academy
|
Posted - 2008.11.06 11:12:00 -
[9]
Bombs are useless, ive never seen a successful use of bombs , most of the time SB was blowen up before his bomb exploded. And you need 4+ bombs to kill a buffer tanked hac, and like 10 to kill a dd tanked bs. It cant be done in usual pvp environment.
Bombs should be able to do 40-50k dmg to a bs class ship and around 10k to a bc and useless to smaller ship. No area dmg is needed.
|
Kunming
T.H.U.G L.I.F.E
White Core
|
Posted - 2008.11.06 11:18:00 -
[10]
Lets compare: 6 BSs (Abaddon f.ex) with 6 Bombers (all same type)
Second 0: bombs are deployed, BSs deal 24k DMG
Second 8: bombs still not exploded, BSs deal 48k DMG total
Second 15: bombs go off dealing 48k DMG, BSs deal 72k DMG total
Second 16: no bombs on the scene, BSs deal 96k DMG total.
Alright bombs hurt multiple targets while the BSs only one but anyone seeing a wing of bombers deploying will make his way out of the blast radius and 15 secs is a long time to do that; so even if u face a tight group of ships that advantage is lost over the long count down of the bomb and u'll mostly get 2-3 slowboats. Also I dont know any bomber in RL (or game) which hangs around in its own blast radius!
We could reduce bomb flight time to 10secs and considerably reduce cost to 2mils, so they are a more viable tool. I didnt say they should be an I-WIN button. They are not very stealth but thats not the main issue here, its the DMG done for the COST its done, while losing the tactical advantage very quickly because of the long flight time.
|
Eka Lawrencia
Gallente
|
Posted - 2008.11.06 11:19:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Naomi Knight
usual pvp environment.
There is no such thing.
|
Naomi Knight
Amarr
Imperial Academy
|
Posted - 2008.11.06 11:22:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Eka Lawrencia
Originally by: Naomi Knight
usual pvp environment.
There is no such thing.
Maybe but there is no such as only bs gang will stuck on a gate and enemy brings in 6+ SBers.
|
Kunming
T.H.U.G L.I.F.E
White Core
|
Posted - 2008.11.06 11:27:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Naomi Knight
Bombs are useless, ive never seen a successful use of bombs , most of the time SB was blowen up before his bomb exploded. And you need 4+ bombs to kill a buffer tanked hac, and like 10 to kill a dd tanked bs. It cant be done in usual pvp environment.
Bombs should be able to do 40-50k dmg to a bs class ship and around 10k to a bc and useless to smaller ship. No area dmg is needed.
Agreed that no area dmg is needed. You mostly get to bleed some dmg on to a second target, hardly a 3rd one. And its usually an epic fail when going bombing unless the targets are mentally doctile. The tactical doctrine is flawed, you can do a better ambush with a bait ship and a BS gang.
|
Julia D'maro
Republic Military School
|
Posted - 2008.11.06 11:33:00 -
[14]
In my opinion they should be converted to anti-supercapital role.
Allowing them to deploy long range slow floating citadel torpedoes (large sig to avoid all-round combat) with huge blast bonus against one target would be really cool.
And this would fix capital crazyness going on around.
I dont give exact numbers because dev team would tweaked it on their own anyway. Just a thought.
|
baltec1
R.U.S.T.
|
Posted - 2008.11.06 11:44:00 -
[15]
Personaly I would replace the bomb launcher and fit 3x cruise launchers and have at the battleships from under 40k range safe in the knolage that they couldnt target any of the bombers before we cloaked up again.
Continue untill they run or die.
|
Chronospin
Minmatar
Republic Military School
|
Posted - 2008.11.06 11:45:00 -
[16]
I dont realy think they are designed to pop BS... In my humble opinion, the better r(le of those buggers is poping the support. I agree that bomb price is too much.
|
Connner
Minmatar
|
Posted - 2008.11.06 11:56:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Naomi Knight
Bombs are useless, ive never seen a successful use of bombs , most of the time SB was blowen up before his bomb exploded. And you need 4+ bombs to kill a buffer tanked hac, and like 10 to kill a dd tanked bs. It cant be done in usual pvp environment.
Bombs should be able to do 40-50k dmg to a bs class ship and around 10k to a bc and useless to smaller ship. No area dmg is needed.
Just because you havn't seen it doesn't make it true. There are extremely effective and viable bomb strategys out there, but it takes a well practiced and well orginized bomber wing to do it. I can't remember the spacific ranges but basicly you use force recons as mobile bookmarks, warp bombers in and out of the combat in waves at very spacific ranges. You can destroy a gang or make them flee in only a few passes.
|
Imaos
|
Posted - 2008.11.06 12:16:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Ratchman
I would like to see Stealth Bombers be able to use the Cov Ops Cloaking Device, as this would make them true stealth bombers. At the moment, you have to warp uncloaked, which does defeat the purpose of an ambush.
There not there for a mobile ambush. If you give them the cov ops cloak you will introduce stealth bomber online. Just bring enough bombers to instapop a bs and you can wear down any fleet if it doesnt go logoffski.
Bombs are too expensive that's all. Cruise works far better. Also comparing frigs to bs is just insane. Btw dont the bombs stay if the bomber warps? If not: Warping on grid should help.
Imaos
------------------------------------------
Originally by: NoNah
My friend, this is EVE, as it's a space oriented game, they couldn't have trolls. We have Caldari. |
Vigilant
Gallente
Vigilant's Vigilante's
|
Posted - 2008.11.06 15:31:00 -
[19]
Say this with me "Wolf Pack" and if don't understand the concept read some WW2 history about German Submarine operations.
|
Vall Kor
|
Posted - 2008.11.06 17:34:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Vall Kor on 06/11/2008 17:34:56
Originally by: Vigilant
Say this with me "Wolf Pack" and if don't understand the concept read some WW2 history about German Submarine operations.
Shouldn't that already be the bombers role? Get in behind the lines and destroy a high value target and if the pilot is good escape? But then large battles could possibly end up looking a lot like real world fleet battles. That could also make destroyers useful (outside of being the Hoover class), since they were the ASW fleet most of the time.
You'd need all kinds of battle groups prepared. Maybe that's too much "work"?
Edit: Just a newb adding to the discussion. 
|
Spectre3353
Gallente
The Bastards
|
Posted - 2008.11.06 17:37:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Ratchman
I would like to see Stealth Bombers be able to use the Cov Ops Cloaking Device, as this would make them true stealth bombers. At the moment, you have to warp uncloaked, which does defeat the purpose of an ambush.
Aside from that, I seem to use them just fine. They can work quite well in conjunction with other ships.
This.
-----
My Pirate Blog: http://evenewb.blogspot.com/
My Ransom Board: http://www.pcransomboard.com/ |
Thezerion
Caldari
Ever Flow
Axiom Empire
|
Posted - 2008.11.06 19:16:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Imaos
There not there for a mobile ambush. If you give them the cov ops cloak you will introduce stealth bomber online. Just bring enough bombers to instapop a bs and you can wear down any fleet if it doesnt go logoffski.
You'd still need to uncloak to deploy your missiles, leaving you vulnerable to detection. even if the bomber cloaks again after unloading a salvo, you still lose the element of surprise long enough to alert the enemy fleet of your presence.
+1 to cov ops cloaks for SB's. it just makes sense.
|
GateScout
|
Posted - 2008.11.06 19:29:00 -
[23]
After this next patch, you won't have to worry about stealth bombers unless they get some sort of bonus.
Go fire a few Cruise missiles at any moving target...and you'll see what I mean.
|
Kunming
T.H.U.G L.I.F.E
White Core
|
Posted - 2008.11.06 20:14:00 -
[24]
This thread is actually more about the bombs SBs use, and there are much better alternatives for cruise missile platforms.
So back on topic; I dont think cov ops cloak is the real issue here, bombers need to have a appropiate target, if its not BSs then reduce the explosion sig on bombs so they can kill BC and cruisers, but then I dont know how they are supposed to be blob breakers as CCP intended, whatever the devs do what they want anyway we can jsut waste all our time on the forums...
|
Imaos
|
Posted - 2008.11.06 20:58:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Thezerion
Originally by: Imaos
There not there for a mobile ambush. If you give them the cov ops cloak you will introduce stealth bomber online. Just bring enough bombers to instapop a bs and you can wear down any fleet if it doesnt go logoffski.
You'd still need to uncloak to deploy your missiles, leaving you vulnerable to detection. even if the bomber cloaks again after unloading a salvo, you still lose the element of surprise long enough to alert the enemy fleet of your presence.
+1 to cov ops cloaks for SB's. it just makes sense.
I say if the enemy fleet doesnt notice a ship going pop they deserve to die. The problem isnt the enemy fleet noticing you bomber squadron, the problem is they can't do **** if you can warp cloaked in and out.
With a cov ops cloak a bomber squad can kill without fear of retaliation. If the bombers have cov ops and only intend to fire a single volley each they are in warp and cloaked again before you have a chance to react. That's more frustrating than ECM.
Imaos
------------------------------------------
Originally by: NoNah
My friend, this is EVE, as it's a space oriented game, they couldn't have trolls. We have Caldari. |
Imaos
|
Posted - 2008.11.06 21:04:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Kunming
This thread is actually more about the bombs SBs use, and there are much better alternatives for cruise missile platforms.
So back on topic; I dont think cov ops cloak is the real issue here, bombers need to have a appropiate target, if its not BSs then reduce the explosion sig on bombs so they can kill BC and cruisers, but then I dont know how they are supposed to be blob breakers as CCP intended, whatever the devs do what they want anyway we can jsut waste all our time on the forums...
If you would stop equaling a t2 frig and a t1 battleship there wouldnt be that big of a problem. Bombs are too expensive, but they are nice to soften up a blob. They aren't solo blob solver. Warp some in when the fight is already running.
Imaos
------------------------------------------
Originally by: NoNah
My friend, this is EVE, as it's a space oriented game, they couldn't have trolls. We have Caldari. |
Kunming
T.H.U.G L.I.F.E
White Core
|
Posted - 2008.11.06 21:06:00 -
[27]
Agree with Imaos covops cloak will overpower the ship in the wrong direction while at it. The stealth is a secondary issue IMO, bombers need to achieve bombing first before anything else.
|
Gimpb
Deathwatch Ltd
|
Posted - 2008.11.07 02:06:00 -
[28]
Bombers have their little niche. The real problem with the, imo, is how small that niche is.
Their agility sucks, their speed sucks, their fitting is super tight, their warp range sucks, and you have to pick between bombs and being able to 1-shot frigates.
If they're going to suck at all those things, they really ought to be awesome at something. Their niche of being able to 1-shot slow-moving frigates just isn't a very useful niche... who has ever thought to themselves, "hey, I ought to use something that's good for blowing up slow-moving frigates."
As for bombs, they're much the same as the ship itself.... a long list of disadvantages for no distinctive strength.
|
Gaius Sejanus
Gallente
Federal Navy Academy
|
Posted - 2008.11.07 04:52:00 -
[29]
Easy, give all the race's bombers the ability to use 4 citadel torpedo launchers with a good sized ROF bonus. Since fleet battles are becoming more and more dominated by dreadnaughts, give a smaller ship the ability to drop something that hurts them.
Citadel torps are near useless against smaller stuff, so they can be very strong vs dreads without unbalancing the rest of the game. Obviously it would be silly to have a 10-15M bomber pop a 1B+ dread, but the damage would at least be notable. Combine with a covert ops cloak (which bombers really DO need).
This adds a second possible role, using cloaking and/or covert cynos to be able to drop in on any POS facilities that aren't protected by the tower shield and use dreadnaught sized weapons on them. A potential method of knocking out a cyno jammer, maybe. Stuff like that.
|
Karrade Krise
Galatic P0RN Starz
|
Posted - 2008.11.07 05:09:00 -
[30]
SBs aren't going to be any good at all after QR...The only thing you would have any hopes of killing are the ones that are afk...
An AB Condor took 5 salvos from me before warping off on sisi...
|
| |
|
| Pages: [1] 2 :: one page |
| First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |