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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 53 post(s)
KarGard Agent-Orange	Posted - 2009.01.21 19:10:00 - [511] Originally by: Venomae So basically drones are totally useless after NPC AI if they switch targets. WTG. Yeah just like how they are totally useless in pvp... oh wait.
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2009.01.21 21:16:00 - [512] Originally by: KarGard Originally by: Venomae So basically drones are totally useless after NPC AI if they switch targets. WTG. Yeah just like how they are totally useless in pvp... oh wait. lol, this. I mean honestly.
libertarian cole	Posted - 2009.01.21 23:01:00 - [513] This whole thread makes me depressed. First there is the idea that PvE fits should match or be similar to PvP fits. I understand the reasoning why...you want a seamless integration between the two activities that makes the learning curve for PvP more bearable. At the same time though why should these fits be the same? They are two totally different activities as far as I am concerned. PvE is for making isk, and PvP is for destroying isk (whos isk you destroy depends on your skill). Maybe the story is different for shield tankers, but I'm an armor tanker. Usually in PvP I use my tank as a life extension. Its not meant to protect me its just meant to keep me alive slightly longer so i can kill more things. My tank is good for one engagement at a time with space in between. In PvE I have a tank that is meant to keep me intact. If it does not keep me intact then it fails as a tank. I have no reason to just make a buffer zone tank in PvE unless it is to escape because killing an extra NPC is a waste of a ship compared to killing an extra pod pilot. The solution to the tanking issue is to make less NPCs. But if you dont seriously increase the loot from these harder more resilient NPCs then what reason is there to rat/mission if the rewards are so crappy for the effort? The way I see it is NPCs in their current form create the middle class of EVE. Yeah sure some people can make a killing off of moon mining, scams, market alts, or running a corporation; but NPCs allow the average joe type player to make a decent living. You will give players experience at PvP that they will then be unable to participate in because of the new costs in PvE.
Phantom Slave JUDGE DREAD Inc.	Posted - 2009.01.22 00:20:00 - [514] Originally by: libertarian cole <Snip> CCP Has always aimed at keeping risk/reward relatively level. The lower the risk, the lower the payout, the higher the risk, the higher the payout. I don't think they would throw their current risk/reward model out the window and make you risk your ass for little to no reward. I can assure you that if these smarter NPC's ever make it to Missions then you can guarantee a higher reward for your extra effort.
Rivqua Caldari Omega Wing R.E.P.O.	Posted - 2009.01.22 06:31:00 - [515] Originally by: Phantom Slave Originally by: libertarian cole <Snip> CCP Has always aimed at keeping risk/reward relatively level. The lower the risk, the lower the payout, the higher the risk, the higher the payout. I don't think they would throw their current risk/reward model out the window and make you risk your ass for little to no reward. I can assure you that if these smarter NPC's ever make it to Missions then you can guarantee a higher reward for your extra effort. You mean kept it level, as in everywhere except L4 missions, which are 0 risk and maximum reward? No, I don't think they've kept anything level :) /Riv
Element 22 Gallente	Posted - 2009.01.22 06:35:00 - [516] But in level 4's they have all these ships and they shoot all these missiles and make all these big explosions They scare me into forgetting to click the 5 tanking modules and release my drones Signatures are annoying...kinda like me.

CCP Incognito	Posted - 2009.01.22 08:33:00 - [517] Originally by: libertarian cole This whole thread makes me depressed. ... The way I see it is NPCs in their current form create the middle class of EVE. Yeah sure some people can make a killing off of moon mining, scams, market alts, or running a corporation; but NPCs allow the average joe type player to make a decent living. You will give players experience at PvP that they will then be unable to participate in because of the new costs in PvE. As I stated above, the loot rewards are being balanced to the new difficulty. Also you seem to be ignoring the statement that these new AI are only going to be on wormhole NPC's. So brand new NPC's with new AI. This isn't changing the amount of isk a mission runner gets from doing missions. So I don't see where your fear is coming from. If and I stress IF we deploy this to the rest of NPC then of course the rewards would be balanced against the diffaculty so the Average "The Plumber" Joe won't see a significant change in the amount of isk/ time reward. Yes with the new AI there may be only 2 ships in the spawn, but it might take you 20 min to kill them. But you would get the same reward as if you spent 20 min killing 15 ships. I hope this resolves some of your fears.


CCP Incognito	Posted - 2009.01.22 08:35:00 - [518] Originally by: Element 22 But in level 4's they have all these ships and they shoot all these missiles and make all these big explosions They scare me into forgetting to click the 5 tanking modules and release my drones LoL

Dr Panda Swedish Aerospace Inc Southern Cross Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.22 08:52:00 - [519] Originally by: speal CCP has never cared for pve....and they never will.! Raven Navy Issue is in the game for a reason.
Bartholomeus Crane Gallente The Crane Family	Posted - 2009.01.23 17:52:00 - [520] I was hoping this thread would remain somewhat clear of balance issues. Yes, there are balance issues with missions, we all know them, but this is not the place to discuss them. Especially since it has been said over and over that these issues w.r.t. the new NPCs will be looked at and balanced out. Instead, this is the thread where you can have your say about what AI in NPCs should mean according to you, and what changes you'd like to see which would make missions or NPCs in general more interesting. I hope that we can return to that subject now ...

Sidrat Flush Caldari Life is Experience Rally Against Evil	Posted - 2009.01.24 04:31:00 - [521] Sorry haven't read all the posts, or even the first page. I shall do so with haste after this short message. If the currently clear cut boundary between pve and pvp becomes fuzzy what will actually change? Will the enemy in the wormholes be solo'ble? Will they be the new level 5? I'm going to edit this after I read the first page I reckon. -------------------------- Life is about memories the more the better.
Jason Edwards Internet Tough Guy	Posted - 2009.01.24 06:01:00 - [522] Originally by: CCP Incognito * We are planning a across the board change in how NPC use EW. Currently a NPC has a chance to use EW and if it does you are scrambled. The plan is to make NPC EW like player EW so if you are loaded up with ECCM you can resist the NPC EW. This is the plan, yet to be executed so no guarantees. yaaay on marauder nerf. well the 2nd marauder nerf. Quote: I disagree mining is adding isk in the form of minerals. the minerals come from this space. At the end of a mining cycle you have a amount of ore, that you then convert to minerals, and from that you convert it to isk. No. If you go kill an officer rat. You now have modules which can be converted to isk. It doesnt mean it's an isk faucet. Isk faucet is generated isk. Which comes from 2 sources. Missions and ratting. 3/4 of people live in empire. So thusly the largest isk faucet is missions. Meaning any real changes to missions directly have effect on the value of isk. Starting to rage. If the wormhole npcs are the only ones who will shoot my drones. FINE. If this moves into missions. I will officially have emoragequit. First you nerfed my cnr. Next patch you nerf my ishtar and dominix??? As the saying goes... First they came... ------------------------ To make a megathron from scratch, you must first invent the eve universe. ------------------------ Life sucks and then you get podded.
Animka Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2009.01.24 09:38:00 - [523] Originally by: CCP Incognito So brand new NPC's with new AI. This isn't changing the amount of isk a mission runner gets from doing missions. Yes with the new AI there may be only 2 ships in the spawn, but it might take you 20 min to kill them. But you would get the same reward as if you spent 20 min killing 15 ships. 20 minutes in a T1 fitted battleship or in a officer fitted marauder with high skills? How this wll be balanced to prevent abusing?
Darwin Duck A Quest Millitia	Posted - 2009.01.24 11:58:00 - [524] They should make missions dynamic, so you can't just go on Eve-survival and see what dmg to deal, what hardners to fit. What ships that web/warp scramble and so on. And have some ships fit remote reppers, but like I said dynamic. Not make the same mobs fit the scramblers each time you do the mission, not the same mobs having the remote reppers and so forth. A dynamic mission system would be great. Bioware promise a fully dynamic system in their SW: Old republic MMO. They say When I do a quest it can be totally different from when you did the same quest depensing on your conversation replies to the quest giver. That sounds interesting. Try to impliment something like that into eve.
Pliauga Gallente Aliastra	Posted - 2009.01.26 07:31:00 - [525] I'd like to see dynamic NPC (pirate) faction territory variation, kind of like what we have in FW with empire factions, only for pirates AND with much more pirate NPC involvement. I'd like to see their teritories change if they are being ratted to hell, and their teritories expand if nobody likes to rat them. Also: Imagine you come ratting/plexing in a system/wormhole and the rats don't just attack blindly. They could (most all the stuff that had all ready been said in this thread): a) Maintain several attack groups (snipers, tacklers, reppers, EW etc). b) Support one another c) And when things start going not their way - get the hell out. d) And/or (this would be cool) several lower ranking rats would try to save their superior officer by (use your imagination of future mechanics) bumping you away from the Officer/jamming the living s**t out of you, while providing the officer with remote rep of the entire group (disregarding more tactically important members of the rat spawn)/webing you and bumping him away/, so that he could warp out. You could chase them, from plex to plex, from rat SS to rat SS. Such officers that escape, would not simply disappear. They would exist. Other players would have a (tiny) chance to encounter them, but the guy that lost the officer the first time could track the officer down ("coordinates of hidden plexes in loot of fallen rats" anyone?). Or the said officer could start hunting the player himself (lowsec/0.0 only obviously). Sorry if I didn't make much sense.
Bartholomeus Crane Gallente The Crane Family	Posted - 2009.01.27 00:58:00 - [526] With the dev blog about Apocrypha (or whatever) out on the wormhole systems, I was wondering when we can expect a dev blog about the new NPC AI? A number of things, we, enlightened readers of this thread, know is untrue have been posted. It would be nice to set the record straight, and moreover, rally some player support for further development of NPC AI? Ya know, nudge nudge, wink wink? -- Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

CCP Incognito	Posted - 2009.01.27 09:17:00 - [527] Originally by: Bartholomeus Crane With the dev blog about Apocrypha (or whatever) out on the wormhole systems, I was wondering when we can expect a dev blog about the new NPC AI? A number of things, we, enlightened readers of this thread, know is untrue have been posted. It would be nice to set the record straight, and moreover, rally some player support for further development of NPC AI? Ya know, nudge nudge, wink wink? Give me a break, I am still writing! :)

LaVista Vista	Posted - 2009.01.27 09:20:00 - [528] Originally by: CCP Incognito Originally by: Bartholomeus Crane With the dev blog about Apocrypha (or whatever) out on the wormhole systems, I was wondering when we can expect a dev blog about the new NPC AI? A number of things, we, enlightened readers of this thread, know is untrue have been posted. It would be nice to set the record straight, and moreover, rally some player support for further development of NPC AI? Ya know, nudge nudge, wink wink? Give me a break, I am still writing! :) Get writing. I'm really excited to find out more about this new AI.
VASH xOUTLAWxLEGEND	Posted - 2009.01.27 11:07:00 - [529] FIX DEFENDER MISSILESS!! <<<< they look gay
Nova Fox Gallente Novafox Shipyards	Posted - 2009.01.27 11:13:00 - [530] Any chances we can get 'optional' bosses that exhibit this new AI in any new missions?

Towelieban Minmatar Priory Of The Lemon	Posted - 2009.01.27 11:49:00 - [531] implementing the new AI to all the spawns would be a big improvement for all of us. it would be so much better then the semi afk ratting most of us do now. and a lower isk/hour ratio is nothing wrong with as these days its just too easy to generate isk so it might actually give some meaning to the value of ships/equipment again
Valeo Galaem New Eden Advanced Reconnaissance Unit	Posted - 2009.01.28 05:51:00 - [532] <hint=devs>This new AI system = mission NPCs with counter objectives</hint> Mission improvements have been on the drawing board in one form or another for some time now. I think that the revamped AI system is a perfect place to begin. Where previously mission NPC AI could only perform the basic lock, approach, attack (the player), you could now extend that to have certain NPCs attack other key NPCs or structures, which would require you to defend them. Or in a reverse situation NPCs that are programmed to defend a specific structure or bot and would work together in an apparent attempt to force you off. There are many scenarios possible with the flexibility that being able to give NPCs their own objectives grants. To use this to its full potential though the mission designers need to be able to access the new AI system in a way that allows the designation of objectives. The AI itself will not necessarily make defeating an individual NPC more difficult (perhaps the mission as a whole) but will introduce some much needed flavor to the mission running side of EVE. NPC objectives could be taken even further with exploration encounters or asteroid NPCs (where you might find an NPC pirate mining operation and an escort will attack you while NPC haulers fly about gathering up cargo before "warping out"). If done right, the possibilities are truly left to the imagination. Thar be Pirates You are not authorised to hack into CONCORD's mainframe Your Wallet has been emptied! CONCORD Encryption Methods
Timathai Minmatar EXPLORATIS Delinquent Habits	Posted - 2009.01.28 07:06:00 - [533] The fact that the AI needs some work is evident, but needs to be looked at in terms of what the server can handle. With up to 40k members online at anytime, and lets say a conservative 35% of them engaging in ratting, missioning and other activities that will encounter mutiple instances of NPC interaction, how much of an AI can we reasonably expect from our encounters? There would need to be a re-working of the current action system: each group would have to be governed by an "overmind" AI, rather than each individual ship acting under it's own power. The AI would have to look at each of the possible targets, gauge it's threat level according to the tactics that the "overmind" AI is designed to use, and choose it's targets and action accordingly. What I have seen players asking for is a vast endeavor on the part of CCP. They would have to examine each spawn roup,(or design new ones) come up with a strategy of attack for each of them, as well as defense, and then apply a set of threat assesment potocols to each designed group. And thats just for random spawns. Looking at the AI for current missions, what the players are asking for would require a complete re-working of each mission the AI would be applied to. If there was a blanket AI applied to missions, level 4's would be nigh on impossible solo, and even lower level missions would become incredibly hard. I think the implementation of a new AI should start with the spawns for belts and then in exploration sites, with the successes of the AI in those formats then being applied to missions. It would be a proccess that would probably span many new expansions, with a few missions being re-designed in each new release. More ideas in next post- Give a man a fish, and he has one good meal. Teach a man to fish and he has a way to **** off his wife every Sunday.
Timathai Minmatar EXPLORATIS Delinquent Habits	Posted - 2009.01.28 07:31:00 - [534] The idea behind this thread semed to also include what changes would make the PVE expirience one that is better than we currently have. Here are my offerings. 1. missions that include "choose your own adventure" mechanics. Actions inside the mission, or at the agent interface, affect the next branch in the mission progression. 2. in RL corps that are not able to attract top talent either need to pay VERY well, or offer other benefits to their employees. In game terms, if a corp isnt doing well, it should re-focus, offer LP store items, or prices, that reflect it's drive to attract pilots to their cause. CCP should track the missions done for corps, and in what vein. Corps that are getting ignored by the pilot population need to advertise, offer greater rewards, change their over all focus, or simply fold up. 3. A system of "reputation" lets say you do a ton of missions for an Amarrian corp, but refuse to do missions that involve slave transport, rebellion surpression, and so on. Your "rep" with Minmatar might not take those broad hits as the normally do. Enough of that sort of activity, and they might even offer you missions via mail, as a "secret" operative. There are a vast number of actions that could be monitored in this manner, and could encourage the role-play segment of the server population, as well as attract that sort of player from other game enviroments. 4. A seperation of mission types in to 2 categories: Corporate Warfare, and Faction based Warfare. Some corporation missions are not going to be directly motivated by hatred or competition with another faction. They will be motivated to advance that corporations goals, which may mean that you are fighting opponents that represent another corp of the same faction. This could allow a player to more succesfully balance their standings with different factions if they so desire. It also lends it self to some of the ideas I laid out in suggestion 2 of this post. 5. I want to see CONCORD get some agents again. No real reason, other than it's a new outlet for new mission types. Any feedback at all appreciated Give a man a fish, and he has one good meal. Teach a man to fish and he has a way to **** off his wife every Sunday.
Durzel The Xenodus Initiative.	Posted - 2009.01.28 12:09:00 - [535] Kinda depressing that we're only going to see this wormhole AI in 0.0 (the new wormhole space?), i.e. most mission runners won't even be able to test it. Unless I'm missing something completely obvious...
Freyya GeoCorp. Paxton Federation	Posted - 2009.01.28 12:16:00 - [536] Edited by: Freyya on 28/01/2009 13:04:06 Seeing as CCP is already going ahead on revamping the AI routines with the new NPC's i'll contribute the thoughts that strayed my mind while i was reading most of the thread so excuse me if some of this has been posted already. Some of my numbers might be pulled from the big hat of guesses and idiocy but please excuse my limited knowledge on some areas. Different NPC AI routines and setups: Currently in missions you have x number of NPC ships that all do the same thing; Shoot, perhaps scram, perhaps jam, perhaps damp, always die. All in all the general damage that is coming in can be folded into the damage a single player PVP vessel of equal size will do when confronted with one. In some cases a bit more and in some cases a bit less. I'll be referring to lvl 4 BS mission runners. I generally run missions in a PVP resistance setup but instead of scram,web,capbooster,ecm,whaterver mods, you fit caprechargers since the damage will be coming in for a longer period of time from a multitude of ships and you want a stable cap to last this long. In PVP you have the general fit of scram,web,capbooster,mwd/ab since going into a 1vs1 with another BS will not take as long as a missions versus 10-20 ships at a time does (exceptions being exceptions). This gives you the ability to fit accordingly to maximise your ability to hold down said player and still maintain enough cap to finish the work or get finished. This is in my oppinion the biggest difference in PVP and PVE. A change i envision which would be a win win situation would be to drop the numbers of NPC's considderably but make them use 4 or 5 of their hardpoints instead of one (or whatever the number is) This will make the NPC's equally damaging but less numerous thus giving a better view on the NPC's "smartness". Ofcourse survivability of said NPC's should go up accordingly. Current situation: Generic mediocre lvl 4 mission; 15 frigs, 8 cruisers, 7 battlecruisers and 5 BS in a first wave/room. If agroed all at once it might give you the damage of 2 PVP fitted, well piloted BS's but usually agros are in groups so divide by 2 or 3 perhaps. Most of them use only one or 2 guns to shoot at you thus limiting their damage in comparison to a player ship. Damage is usually less than an actual player controlled gun would do aswell i think, not sure on that one though. New situation; generic mediocre lvl 4 mission; 3 frigs (tacklers) 2 cruisers (each has a different setup for perhaps E-war) 2 battlecruisers (each has a different setup again for whatever the respective race uses) and 2 battleships. Or perhaps make it 6 frigs and 2 cruisers and 1 battleship or 3 cruisers and 2 battleships. This gives less lag, they are harder to kill, use different setups, do equal damage compared to the old situation (or perhaps a bit more ) and give out the same rewards. The situations is pretty much like how it is ratting in .0 only with the mission ships being a bit better/numerous in comparisson. Ofcourse loot tables would have to be adjusted but i'd say they've been scewed for a long time now. Wrecks should only drop their comparing size mods when destroyed. Nothing shows stupidity more than a battleship dropping a cruiser sized module. Appearances can go a good way into making the NPC's seem smart aswell . I have more but i have to get back to work Lasty this though; People seem to forget a simple truth if i am correct... We, the players, are the elite of the elite podpilots. NPC's are , as far as i know, footsoldiers by all accounts. Regular captains working on bridges manned by people instead of being a podpilot. A right reserved to officers and such i would suspect. It's not a completely bad thing most NPC's wouldn't be as good in handling certain things as podpilots can.... Edit: And please for the love of god make NPC's follow the same rules as Player ships and mods have to! Dumb as hell but better with stats.. ___________ NOW COLLECTING ISD AND CCP AUTOGRAPHS It'll be worth something someday. -Rauth
AeonOfTime Minmatar Syrkos Technologies	Posted - 2009.01.28 12:42:00 - [537] I can only look at this issue from my personal point of view, my way of playing the game. I run level 4 missions when I have the time to run them, which is pretty rare. The average level 4 takes from 1 to 2 hours straight, so when I run one it has to be good. I am not getting any thrills anymore as my experience has grown over time, so a level 4 today is more or less routine and work to collect all the loot. I would not mind the missions being more challenging through a better AI, it would make the rare ventures that much more interesting. And I think we all agree on the fact that the rewards have to be on par with the difficulty :) -- Read the captain's log at eve.aeonoftime.com The solo player's corporation - Syrkos Technologies
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2009.01.28 13:19:00 - [538] release your blog! yarr, have a question to ask you about maybe applying this to factional warfare as those NPCS are not used for grinding isk. Right now even a major plex can be taken down by a ceptor using a MWD.
Kahega Amielden Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2009.01.29 19:48:00 - [539] Quote: So I don't see where your fear is coming from. If and I stress IF we deploy this to the rest of NPC then of course the rewards would be balanced against the diffaculty so the Average "The Plumber" Joe won't see a significant change in the amount of isk/ time reward. Yes with the new AI there may be only 2 ships in the spawn, but it might take you 20 min to kill them. But you would get the same reward as if you spent 20 min killing 15 ships. So are you saying missions aren't changing ISK/Hour wise? Or just that they wont be changing as a result of the new NPC AI? Zulupark mentioned that hisec missions would be brought down a bit. Originally by: Catharacta My CNR runs on salvager tears.

CCP Incognito	Posted - 2009.01.30 08:54:00 - [540] Edited by: CCP Incognito on 30/01/2009 08:55:00 Originally by: Kahega Amielden Quote: So I don't see where your fear is coming from. If and I stress IF we deploy this to the rest of NPC then of course the rewards would be balanced against the diffaculty so the Average "The Plumber" Joe won't see a significant change in the amount of isk/ time reward. Yes with the new AI there may be only 2 ships in the spawn, but it might take you 20 min to kill them. But you would get the same reward as if you spent 20 min killing 15 ships. So are you saying missions aren't changing ISK/Hour wise? Or just that they wont be changing as a result of the new NPC AI? Zulupark mentioned that hisec missions would be brought down a bit. You would have to ask Zulupark, there are no planned changes to missions from a AI point of view at this time!




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