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Vigaz
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Posted - 2008.11.07 13:45:00 -
[1]
Place: FFA1 arena
Raven setup 3xBCU t2 2xTP PWANGE 1xMWD T2 3xWebber drones, each one -20% speed, total speed reducion around -40% -45%. 2xtop named heavy neut Skills (missiles skills @ 5, only specs, GMP, and TP at 4) no implants or boosters. Cruise T2 -> Cataclysm precision (450 HP thermal damage with this fitting) Rigs and other meds/low for a shield buffer tank
AB Zelot, Pilot told in local the following stat: 75% em, 90.24% exp, 81% kin, 79% therm + 15K armor buffer + Guardian Zealot pilot: old char, I guess he has very good skills.
It's clear that Raven was in trouble even before the beginning of the fight, but I would like to use this as an example.
AB & sig of the Zealot were removing 2/3 of precision cruise damage with 2xTPs + webber drones (450 per cruise - 80% Zealot resist = 90hitpoints, best shot was 'only' 33 and the average was 25-28).
For sure it's possible to improve hitpoints per cruise, but I guess that using alrdy 2 meds, the entire Raven drone bay and precision T2 for hitting 'small stuff' could be considered a 'flyable' dedicated fit.
Conclusion: Raven has a very reduced capability to face cruiser hull size ships with AB. You can use booster + 3xrigs + 4xTPs + web (maybe you can reach 100% dmg before resist) but in that case Raven doesn't have any shield tank.
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Kalintos Tyl
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.11.07 14:15:00 -
[2]
now test with turets, they will miss 99% time
Quote: It's not a good idea to place a Exotic Dancers in a Giant Secure Container. The Exotic Dancers will not survive intact, if transported in such a container.
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Takon Orlani
Caldari Chaos Monkeys
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Posted - 2008.11.07 14:23:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Takon Orlani on 07/11/2008 14:24:07 Edited by: Takon Orlani on 07/11/2008 14:23:06 I'm not sure a cruise missile should dominate a cruiser sized vessel. But it should hit a little harder than that. BC hulls are a different story.
Also,
Dude, your face.
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Kalintos Tyl
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.11.07 14:29:00 -
[4]
ccp removes ugly things from game, they have renought at looking achura all time :D
Quote: It's not a good idea to place a Exotic Dancers in a Giant Secure Container. The Exotic Dancers will not survive intact, if transported in such a container.
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Vigaz
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Posted - 2008.11.07 14:40:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Kalintos Tyl now test with turets, they will miss 99% time
I'm just sharing a test that I can do. I dont have turets skills.
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Kalintos Tyl
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.11.07 14:50:00 -
[6]
anyway cruise misiles still do too much damage vs speed tanking cruisers. Crusie misiles are bs vs bs waepons ....
Quote: It's not a good idea to place a Exotic Dancers in a Giant Secure Container. The Exotic Dancers will not survive intact, if transported in such a container.
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darkmancer
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Posted - 2008.11.07 15:37:00 -
[7]
Edited by: darkmancer on 07/11/2008 15:38:22 Battleship Turrets are quite capable of hitting cruisers, and that's before adding web drones and tp's.
I'm not saying you won't get some misses but if you have the range you'll hit without any anti cruiser mods/drones.
It's only when you get close and start ramping up the transversal easy enough in solo fights a bit harder when the enemy comes in numbers larger than 1.
Bs ain't just intended to hurt bs (otherwise nobody would use them), lets put it this way if a zealot gets webbed and tp'd 40+km from a Rokh with 425mm rails that zealots going to feel some pain without me pumping up on tracking mods. 40km + from a cruise raven the zealot gets to fear 180 damage every 10 secs or soo.
Long range missiles get slapped with poor dps and the pain in the arse flight time. In return we get choice of damage (not that usful in most fights), and more flexible damage application than turrets.
We still have the flexibility of putting out the damage but it doesn't seem to be in worth while amounts, worse we're losing vital mid slots to do it, none of the missile spewers are particually uber now, it just seems your making a medicore weapon system worse.
I can understand changing a weapon system (especially with the nano nerf comming), but missiles just seem to be getting hit with penalties while getting nothing worthwhile in return.
--------------------------------- There's a simple solution to every problem. It is always invariably wrong |
Crellion
Art of War Exalted.
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Posted - 2008.11.07 16:02:00 -
[8]
You see what happened was that when they announced the first iteration of the nanonerf we all said we would exchange our nano Ishtars/Zealots/Vagas for uber Carberuses so CCP was worried that the killers would still be killing and the losers would still get slaughtered... As a result they are trying to nerf all ships and weapons so that with some luck even compelte noobs may escape all the time...
I expect an Ammar nerf ASAP-ish... Arguably my opinions represent to an extent the opinions of my alliance and in particular circumstances give rise to a valid "casus belli" claim. |
Sobrenus
Amarr Hedion University
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Posted - 2008.11.07 16:18:00 -
[9]
Just a question to CCP - is it intended to be so ugly? I think I got a point of a nanonerf, but why you putting all the other things from the legs to the head? After nanonerf you would like still to have balance, so you are nerfing rest of the ships to have something similar to the situation before the nerf? )) If it is so - you better keep nanoships, I enjoyed killing them a lot. ------------------------------------------------- My list of found scummers: Alita Tiphares (direct trade scum), Biznismen |
Alt altski
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Posted - 2008.11.07 17:08:00 -
[10]
Fit a neut on your raven and the zealot wont be moving.
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Uzume Ame
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Posted - 2008.11.07 17:26:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Alt altski Fit a neut on your raven and the zealot wont be moving.
Fail, read the op: 2xtop named heavy neut Teh failure of a signature. |
Gut Punch
Shade. Penumbra Alliance
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Posted - 2008.11.07 18:52:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Alt altski Fit a neut on your raven and the zealot wont be moving.
L2Read. Base speed of the HAC will still be fast enough even with a single web.
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Kalintos Tyl
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.11.07 18:53:00 -
[13]
so? ITs cruiser being shot by bs ? Try turets ? They miss? Ow my misiles should wtf pown with 1 voley anything maybe ?
Quote: It's not a good idea to place a Exotic Dancers in a Giant Secure Container. The Exotic Dancers will not survive intact, if transported in such a container.
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Poba
The Collective Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2008.11.07 19:24:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Takon Orlani Edited by: Takon Orlani on 07/11/2008 14:24:07 Edited by: Takon Orlani on 07/11/2008 14:23:06 I'm not sure a cruise missile should dominate a cruiser sized vessel. But it should hit a little harder than that. BC hulls are a different story.
almost ok, but fail
long range BS weps should NOT hit cruiser sized ships harder than that unless they are so far off tracking penalty is negated. lets look at long range weps: arti rails cruises and beams. all have huge dead zones close to the ship using them due to tracking except cruises. all are lucky to hit cruiser sized ships without web/TP/tracking mods if its orbiting under 15km from it except cruises(except for speeds so fast other turrets arnt hitting it at either)
i think cruises should have a 20km arming range where they take huge exp vel/radius penalties until they travel the distance to bring them inline with other long range weps. and should keep current sisi stats.
~Welcome to the internet, where the men are men, the women are men, and the children are FBI agents~ |
darkmancer
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Posted - 2008.11.07 19:36:00 -
[15]
Edited by: darkmancer on 07/11/2008 19:38:19 Can you make turrets seriously damage a smaller ship? - Yes
Can you make Cruise seriously damage a smaller ship? - No
Cruise missiles have never been able to single volley anything but the crappest fitted ships or ever will.
edit: "i think cruises should have a 20km arming range where they take huge exp vel/radius penalties until they travel the distance to bring them inline with other long range weps. and should keep current sisi stats."
Really good idea, it'llbe exploted massivley by seperating ships out a bit but a fun idea none the less :p
Really g --------------------------------- There's a simple solution to every problem. It is always invariably wrong |
Murina
The Scope
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Posted - 2008.11.07 20:02:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Murina on 07/11/2008 20:04:38 Have you tried hitting a HAC at close range with rails?.....try 0 hits ever.
Although i do agree that this entire nerf sucks and prefer not to single out a specific system as its screwing with way too many.
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darkmancer
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Posted - 2008.11.07 20:24:00 -
[17]
Haveyou tried hitting tackled cruisers at medium range with rails? Works quite well --------------------------------- There's a simple solution to every problem. It is always invariably wrong |
Murina
The Scope
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Posted - 2008.11.07 20:34:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Murina on 07/11/2008 20:36:37
Originally by: darkmancer Haveyou tried hitting tackled cruisers at medium range with rails? Works quite well
Ok so gunships can hit a tackled cruiser hull at long or med range but miss utterly at close (tackle) range. Long range gives very reduced dmg due to the ammo type needed, and 45-55km gives the best dmg as you can use anti-matter. Inside 40km they will begin to miss rather a lot and inside 30km they will miss almost constantly.
Also gunships need to either use long range/low dmg ammo constantly and at all ranges or be forced to reload every time the target ship changes range by as little as 15-20km or even less.
While ravens hit 100% for low but steady dmg at all ranges without the need to reload tackled or not, although if its tackled with TP as well as webs the dmg increases.
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Uzume Ame
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Posted - 2008.11.07 21:20:00 -
[19]
What matters it's the comparative damage (between turrets & missiles) when the target is takled, because at >25km range it does not matter if it's not takled as it will be able to warp; so we need to know the damage at: - base speed - damage in turrets is very variable, depending on the fit and the range (as the transversal is reduced when the range is long; and tracking enhacers etc help), we assume the target is scrambled only and has no speed mod (highlly unlikelly). - afterburnin and microwarping; here is the big deal how much does speed reduce damage for missiles on average and on turrets (it's a mkatter of tracking). and microwarping & afterburning webbed? - with target painter to help on signature radious. etc.
there are too much variables to know if turrets & missiles are even on average and we have to assume suppoort & how much (one web, two, 3, scrambeld or not, ab or mwd, TP (1 or 2) etc.). it's allready too late anyway and i can't help but think that the changes are final. Teh failure of a signature. |
ragewind
Caldari Vale Heavy Industries Molotov Coalition
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Posted - 2008.11.08 00:34:00 -
[20]
you call forget that cruses are long range so there counter part turret is the rails and at there respective long ranges as long as there isnt a transverse issue bs rails will wreck small ships
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Murina
The Scope
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Posted - 2008.11.08 07:38:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Uzume Ame What matters it's the comparative damage (between turrets & missiles) when the target is takled, because at >25km range it does not matter if it's not takled as it will be able to warp; so we need to know the damage at: - base speed - damage in turrets is very variable, depending on the fit and the range (as the transversal is reduced when the range is long; and tracking enhacers etc help), we assume the target is scrambled only and has no speed mod (highlly unlikelly). - afterburnin and microwarping; here is the big deal how much does speed reduce damage for missiles on average and on turrets (it's a mkatter of tracking). and microwarping & afterburning webbed? - with target painter to help on signature radious. etc.
there are too much variables to know if turrets & missiles are even on average and we have to assume suppoort & how much (one web, two, 3, scrambeld or not, ab or mwd, TP (1 or 2) etc.). it's allready too late anyway and i can't help but think that the changes are final.
At inside 25km the turret ships miss99% of the time unless the target is virtually stationary.
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Tuncan
Minmatar Arbitrary Freedom
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Posted - 2008.11.08 08:53:00 -
[22]
Originally by: ragewind you call forget that cruses are long range so there counter part turret is the rails and at there respective long ranges as long as there isnt a transverse issue bs rails will wreck small ships
If a ship is going with a speed which is faster that your cruise missiles explosion velocity, than it has enough speed to create "that" transversal for long range turrets lige artilery :S
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Doctor Mahbuse
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Posted - 2008.11.08 11:07:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Kalintos Tyl so? ITs cruiser being shot by bs ? Try turets ? They miss? Ow my misiles should wtf pown with 1 voley anything maybe ?
Lol what a retared noob. Ever tried dual 250mm rails on a mega with tracking computer against cruisers ? Obviously not.
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The Djego
Minmatar merovinger inc
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Posted - 2008.11.08 11:20:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Doctor Mahbuse
Originally by: Kalintos Tyl so? ITs cruiser being shot by bs ? Try turets ? They miss? Ow my misiles should wtf pown with 1 voley anything maybe ?
Lol what a retared noob. Ever tried dual 250mm rails on a mega with tracking computer against cruisers ? Obviously not.
- posting with a Alt to avoid making your Main look stupid -> check - using sniper Fittings without Sniper Range -> check - using sniper Fittings without compareable Sniper Damage -> check - unalbe to understand that you canŠt even hit a Cruiser with even better Tracking Blasters close -> check - discovert a little Troll -> check
---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank!
Originally by: Amantus Real men don't need to get into blaster range.
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Doctor Mahbuse
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Posted - 2008.11.08 11:41:00 -
[25]
Originally by: The Djego
- posting with a Alt to avoid making your Main look stupid -> check - using sniper Fittings without Sniper Range -> check - using sniper Fittings without compareable Sniper Damage -> check - unalbe to understand that you canŠt even hit a Cruiser with even better Tracking Blasters close -> check
Look how dumb you are, i was talking about dual 250mm rails, not blasters, not sniper setup. With a web and targetpainters, like in the example with cruise missiles, that mega will always deal damage and 99% full damage on a cruiser. And the damage of a mega with dual 250mm using antimatter is higher than that of a cruise raven. If you can't hit a cruiser with that guns, tracking rigs and webs or tracking computers, your a noob and shouldn't fly a battleship. Guns p0wn smaller ships on TQ all the time, unless the mega pilot is a moron ofc.
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Azuse
Veto. Veto Corp
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Posted - 2008.11.08 11:48:00 -
[26]
Haha,, even before the holes in your theory it's just too obvious you haven't been on sisi nor do you have any real understanding of how tracking works. In fact a (unbonused) tp on zealot won't even boost the sig to less than half the sig rad of the guns which means you're missing more than 50% of the time before you add transversal which is now 4* higher with webs.
Not that it matters, if you're under the delusion that rails + am + web is the way to go, well, i hope i bump into your non-noob bs very soon
As for the op, shooting bs weapons at a ship hull 2 classes below will never be favourable plus the explosion velocity was bugged (is it still?) -------------------------
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2008.11.08 12:30:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Azuse In fact a (unbonused) tp on zealot won't even boost the sig to less than half the sig rad of the guns which means you're missing more than 50% of the time before you add transversal which is now 4* higher with webs.
In before everyone else telling you that tracking doesn't work like that.
Sig res/radius issues act as a modifier to tracking, not as a separate "to hit" roll.
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Doctor Mahbuse
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Posted - 2008.11.08 12:31:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Doctor Mahbuse on 08/11/2008 12:31:41
Originally by: Azuse Haha,, even before the holes in your theory it's just too obvious you haven't been on sisi nor do you have any real understanding of how tracking works. In fact a (unbonused) tp on zealot won't even boost the sig to less than half the sig rad of the guns which means you're missing more than 50% of the time before you add transversal which is now 4* higher with webs.
Not that it matters, if you're under the delusion that rails + am + web is the way to go, well, i hope i bump into your non-noob bs very soon
As for the op, shooting bs weapons at a ship hull 2 classes below will never be favourable
Hahaha another biased punk. Dual 250mm rails are in particular made to hit fast/small targets, sub battelship size. If you say bs-sized turrets with tracking mods aren't good against cruisers, you show that you have no clue. I and many others who killed countless small and medium sized target with bs-sized turrets on a regular basis can only laugh at you and your ignorance.
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The Djego
Minmatar merovinger inc
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Posted - 2008.11.08 13:28:00 -
[29]
Edited by: The Djego on 08/11/2008 13:34:11
Originally by: Doctor Mahbuse
Originally by: The Djego
- posting with a Alt to avoid making your Main look stupid -> check - using sniper Fittings without Sniper Range -> check - using sniper Fittings without compareable Sniper Damage -> check - unalbe to understand that you canŠt even hit a Cruiser with even better Tracking Blasters close -> check
Look how dumb you are, i was talking about dual 250mm rails, not blasters, not sniper setup. With a web and targetpainters, like in the example with cruise missiles, that mega will always deal damage and 99% full damage on a cruiser. And the damage of a mega with dual 250mm using antimatter is higher than that of a cruise raven.
Ok using Dual Rails, Tracking Comps now Web and Target painters, is not a sniping setup? What then, a close Range Setup? In both worlds it fails since it is a Damage and Range gimped Long Range setup and a Tank and Damage gimped close Range Setup. Troll more?
Originally by: Doctor Mahbuse
If you can't hit a cruiser with that guns, tracking rigs and webs or tracking computers, your a noob and shouldn't fly a battleship. Guns p0wn smaller ships on TQ all the time, unless the mega pilot is a moron ofc.
How many Webs Tracking Rigs and Tracking Comps can you fit on the Mega with a Point? Oh I forgot you useing a Gang where lots of Points, Webs and Painters are avaidalbe, and where the Raven does 100% of the Damage to.
Ofc im a Noob since Im highly speced in BS, and solo/small scale PVP since 2 years in BS a lot and testing the changes since 3 Month now. But well the faceless alt might be right and im all wrong how knows?
You actualy sound like a little kid thats playing with EFT to mutch and EvE to less.
---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank!
Originally by: Amantus Real men don't need to get into blaster range.
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.11.08 13:40:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Vigaz
AB Zelot, Pilot told in local the following stat: 75% em, 90.24% exp, 81% kin, 79% therm + 15K armor buffer + Guardian
So you shot at a very well tanked HAC designed to avoid damage from cruise missiles[15k raw armor is insane on a HAC] while it was supported by a ship that is able to remotely repair three times as much as the strongest self repairing battleship can tank or twice as much with enough cap transfer to enter 100 au warps and cancel them every 30 seconds in the middle of the fight just because. And you were surprised when you lost?
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