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Restructuring and Rebalancing Salvage Thievery

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OldWolfe The Scope	Posted - 2008.11.12 00:58:00 - [1] I am going to clear something up before I start the structuring of my ideas below. I have nothing and everything against salvaging thieves. I do understand that it is a dog eats dog universe which is why IÆm taking the time to come up with this lines and paths of ideas to present to the masses and mainly to CCP. Due to the nature of salvaging thievery in this game, there are strong needs to rebalance and give structures for a more fair and realistic environment to the whole idea of salvaging and those who steals. Without further ado, here I present my composition of ideas and modifications. Redefining of ideas Wreckages and loot cans First off, there have been quite a few issues revolving around what is wreckage and what is ôloot cansö. In the reality of things, when something gets destroy, it does not fall neatly and politely into ôloot cansö. It gets all mangled up and quite beaten up if not broken all over the place (and if you say, ôOh phaw! ItÆs just a gameö then do not bother to approach this in all the ways that appeals to our human senses and ignore all of CCPÆs efforts to make it as realistic space MMO as they possibly can). When it comes to destroying ships in this game, be it NPC or player ships, I do not see how loots can non-chaotically rearrange itself into loot cans and leave everything else into wreckages (unless items and mods were already in a cargo can, unused by the ship in itÆs fittings layouts). And how in this game can loots be player owned but wreckage is not when both came from the same ship? Lions of old earth see their kill as their own and will protect it viciously against hyenas or any other salvaging creatures. Most the times lions wins butàwell hyenas also wins when theyÆre lucky once in a long while. Same should go with our loot wreckage, itÆs a dog eats dog universe, mission runners takes first claim within an environment. Here is my restructuring of the idea behind wreckage and loot cans. Since a lot of the mods that were fitted to the ship capable of surviving, let there be a new design that takes out the mods in process of salvaging the overall wreck in question, at the same time or at least approach it in a more intertwined way rather than being exclusive of one another. After all, we have salvaging beams that can do both roles equally. More of this kind of justification below. Salvaging thieves and our inability to directly fight back without penalty Ever since salvaging entered this game some time ago, it has constantly been a controversial issue among all pilots in this game that are either for or against various aspects of it. One of the most controversial issues is of course, salvaging thieves. Here are the problems as we have it. On the mission runnerÆs side The only way we can fight them is by the following: -Shoot them and kill them and hope they do not have friends standing by -Shoot them and hope they donÆt have a PVP ship standing by -Shoot the wreckages -Let them have it On the salvaging thieves side: -Have friends standing by -Have PVP ships standing by -Are not afraid to lose their ships -Profit -And more profit As you can see, the mission runners loses out in profit on any of those choices for the most part (and how exactly common is it for a polite salvager thieve to leave you alone with out being an asshat? Not very common at all). The additional downside is that mission runners have all the odds stacked against them due to mission runner outfits, salvaging thiefÆs friends or PVP ships, loss of profits from shooting wrecks, and many more.
OldWolfe The Scope	Posted - 2008.11.12 00:59:00 - [2] Edited by: OldWolfe on 12/11/2008 01:00:00 Here is my proposed solution: Since MWD has been effectively disabled inside missions, I can see these ideas easily applied. Whenever a salvager thief enters a mission while not in the mission runnerÆs group, the thief is putting himself at risk of being podded by the mission runner with no Concord intervention. And in addition to that, if the thiefÆs ship is destroyed or got him/herself podded, there will be no kill rights given to the salvagerÆs thief. Also, when mission runners shoot the thief, the aggression timer will not pass onto the thiefÆs group of friends. In addition, the aggression countdown will only exist within missions and automatically end when mission runner or thief leaves the mission area. Justifications? Concord ôWe as an entity do not recognize nor support salvager thievesÆ conducts or activities within Empire space. Those who conduct such activities within Empire space runs at their own risk and will not be under ConcordÆs blanket of protections.ö After all, if Concord catches drug runners and other criminal activities including negative sec standing (shoot on sight if -5.0, etc), why would they give support to salvaging thieves within mission grounds? ItÆs a dog eats dog universe, Law and Order vs. chaotic criminal units. How those ideas and new structures impacts mission running? It will create a more balance mission running environment where the risk vs. reward is well established with risk of actually losing ship/pod to mission runners. Mission runners can still lose profit from the thievery but it also allows mission runners to have a mean to fight back with no risk of being ganked from aggression countdowns outside of mission areas or month-long kill rights or ConcordÆs interventions. This should help remove the thiefÆs feeling of being in cozy one-sided linear environments that protects thieves from consequences of their own actions and at the same time insert a more balanced and realistic risk with potential penalty for their criminal activities of choice. Now back to the wreckage and loot can readjustments. Since a lot of salvager thieves donÆt really care nor have any fear of the mission runners, they tend to take it all, both wreckage and loots. With the changing of Wreckage and loots being combined into one body and causes the thief to flash red when they molest with the wreckages, the fight for the wreckage begins should the mission runner decide he/she wants to, using the new rebalanced adjustments listed above while the thief clearly understands the risk they are encountering should they decide to stand against mission runners for the wreckages. The idea above still needs to be fleshed out some more, naturally. But the whole concept behind it is to rebalance the whole conceptualizations of wreckage and loot cans with salvaging thiefÆs roles with a more non-linear if not more a detailed fleshed out environment for mission runners and salvaging thieves to exist within, making it a more balanced experience. The current version of things is a very one sided environment sacked in the salvaging thiefÆs favor. Well, thatÆs all for now. Now to go nurse my eye infectionà
Blastil	Posted - 2008.11.12 01:04:00 - [3] most Ninja looters I know of operate solo, and/or do not have PVP alts. Ninja Looting is an important aspect of EVE, not just because its part of a dog-eat-dog world, but it cleans up the ****ty lag you missionrunners leave behind in the form of wrecks. I realize that you want to hide in Highsec and make oscene amounts of ISK, but seriously, it has to stop somewhere. Maybe try nerfing your DPS to fit salvagers and tractorbeams and salvage while doing your mission. However, the novel idea of SOLVING a problem before whining about it is lost on carebears. Adeu.
OldWolfe The Scope	Posted - 2008.11.12 01:14:00 - [4] Originally by: Blastil most Ninja looters I know of operate solo, and/or do not have PVP alts. Ninja Looting is an important aspect of EVE, not just because its part of a dog-eat-dog world, but it cleans up the ****ty lag you missionrunners leave behind in the form of wrecks. I realize that you want to hide in Highsec and make oscene amounts of ISK, but seriously, it has to stop somewhere. Maybe try nerfing your DPS to fit salvagers and tractorbeams and salvage while doing your mission. However, the novel idea of SOLVING a problem before whining about it is lost on carebears. Adeu. You seem to fail to realize that the above design I set out is to re-balance it, NOT remove salvaging thieves. Read it -again- and actually see the various points that can improve the aspects of this game involving the above topics.
Kahega Amielden Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2008.11.12 01:17:00 - [5] Edited by: Kahega Amielden on 12/11/2008 01:18:17 You can't steal salvage. Salvage is a miniprofession, not free extra loots for the missionrunner. Just because MRs like to have a riskless, totally noncompetitive profession to make a **ton of money doesn't mean that other EVE professions need to go the same way. Wrecks floating in space are the property of no one and can be freely harvested, like asteroids. If you would like to shoot people harvesting the resources that you would like to harvest, then lowsec is ----> that way. Originally by:** Catharacta My CNR runs on salvager tears.
Icarus Flame Amarr	Posted - 2008.11.12 01:19:00 - [6] GTFO whiney carebear. This sort of thing has been proposed many times, and always CCP has said that it's working as intended. A level 4 mission is the one thing in EvE that is a risk-free way to make ISK. The whole system is screwed up, IMO - there should be no such risk-free ISK faucets. The fact that you're whining about someone taking advantage of your labor in such a manner just goes to show that you wish EVE was a single player PVE game. The wreck belongs to no one, of course. If CCP was going to implement this, they would have done it already. Go play WoW.
The Geoman Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2008.11.12 01:20:00 - [7] Originally by: Kahega Amielden Edited by: Kahega Amielden on 12/11/2008 01:18:17 You can't steal salvage. Salvage is a miniprofession, not free extra loots for the missionrunner. Just because MRs like to have a riskless, totally noncompetitive profession to make a ****ton of money doesn't mean that other EVE professions need to go the same way. Wrecks floating in space are the property of no one and can be freely harvested, like asteroids. If you would like to shoot people harvesting the resources that you would like to harvest, then lowsec is ----> that way. "Riskless" describes salvage ninjas. Yes, I know that this applies to highsec only, but perhaps it is time to add some risk to it?
Kahega Amielden Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2008.11.12 01:22:00 - [8] Edited by: Kahega Amielden on 12/11/2008 01:23:14 Right when you add some risk to missions. I agree to the following nerf to ninjasalvaging: Nerf the ** out of level 4 missions in hisec until they're actually balanced with other professions ISK-wise. This would naturally include a nerf to salvaging which would hurt ninjas. Good enough for you? Originally by:** Catharacta My CNR runs on salvager tears.
OldWolfe The Scope	Posted - 2008.11.12 01:26:00 - [9] It's too bad people don't know how to read constructive creations on the forum these days. Sadly, the mentality of World of Warcraft is invading the mindset of EVE players. Oh well. Waits for constructive critiques/additions instead of cliche crying about healthy clear thread posts
Kahega Amielden Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2008.11.12 01:28:00 - [10] So you can't defend this stupid idea that would only serve to perpetuate the idea that salvage is free loots and that the most imbalanced profession in EVE would be made even better, and you can only serve to make vague insults that make no sense whatsoever Now that that's settled, /thread Originally by: Catharacta My CNR runs on salvager tears.
Blastil	Posted - 2008.11.12 01:29:00 - [11] Originally by: The Geoman "Riskless" describes salvage ninjas. Yes, I know that this applies to highsec only, but perhaps it is time to add some risk to it? Absolute lie. If you REALLY don't like ninja salvagers, Fit a point and a web in your mids and kill the guy. Or hire a nooblet in a frigate for half a mil to defend your salvage. Or pay a noob half the salvage to salvage for you. Or salvage your OWN damn mission. Or get a marauder which are DESIGNED to salvage off missions. Or get layed, and stop caring. Or make a game out of it, and take a swig of beer every time a wreck is 'stolen' from you. Or quit carebearing and play the damn game. Go out and mine, stretch your legs a little and hit up 0.0 or lowsec. Making a 2 page epic whine post about salvage problems ISN"T the way to solve problems in EVE, especially with a TOTALLY BALANCED MECHANIC. If you refuse to use the counter, then that's your own damn fault for refusing to use a game-approved counter to the problems. They exist, and are VERY viable. QFT.
Lilo Gerantis	Posted - 2008.11.12 01:29:00 - [12] Originally by: Icarus Flame GTFO whiney carebear. A level 4 mission is the one thing in EvE that is a risk-free way to make ISK. The whole system is screwed up, IMO - there should be no such risk-free ISK faucets. . Actually to say it is Riskless is incorrect. I've seen it mentioned numerous times. You are at risk anytime you undock! Losing a CNR with Faction mods isn't riskless. There is a large investment involved. I have no problem with someone coming in and Ninjaing my salvage. I usually don't salvage unless the mission is in the same system as I am in as the time to change ships, warp 1-6 systems away takes to long and I can get on with another mission. I do however anounce in corp chat, local for newer players to feel free to tag along and feel free to mission, or even trade them the bookmarks. But to say missioning is riskless is totally not correct!
The Geoman Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2008.11.12 01:30:00 - [13] Lol, some very angry people in here. The OP must have hit a nerve.
E Vile Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.11.12 01:33:00 - [14] Just group with fellow mission runners and solo your missions. If someone comes to ninja loot and brings friends when you shoot them, have all your group warp in and spring the trap. Problem solved, and a few possible killmails to boot.
Plim Gallente Oursulaert Technology Institute	Posted - 2008.11.12 01:33:00 - [15] Salvaging someone else's wreck should have you flagged to them. Then the term 'ninja salvaging' might actually mean something in empire. EVE 'Megacorp or STFU' Online
Blastil	Posted - 2008.11.12 01:39:00 - [16] Originally by: Plim Salvaging someone else's wreck should have you flagged to them. Then the term 'ninja salvaging' might actually mean something in empire. IRL- Salvage is legaly considered owned by the man who did the salvagin work, assuming that the actual item in question was destroyed or rendered unusable before salvage. You cannot "salvage" your neigbor's car, however you can salvage wrecked cars from salvage yards, or naval hulks. In EVE- Salvage is legaly (by concord) considered to be owned by the man who did the salvaging work.
Vaal Erit Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2008.11.12 01:39:00 - [17] Wow, so you want a salvage thief to be some kind of super criminal with worse penalties than in low sec just because he salvaged some space junk in hi-sec? God, GTFO whiny carebear is the correct answer here. -- http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html
Lilo Gerantis	Posted - 2008.11.12 01:45:00 - [18] Originally by: Icarus Flame GTFO whiney carebear. A level 4 mission is the one thing in EvE that is a risk-free way to make ISK. The whole system is screwed up, IMO - there should be no such risk-free ISK faucets. . Actually to say it is Riskless is incorrect. I've seen it mentioned numerous times. You are at risk anytime you undock! Losing a CNR with Faction mods isn't riskless. There is a large investment involved. With a chance of having it all blown to bits. Just because it isn't a pc blowing it up doesn't mean it's risk less! I have no problem with someone coming in and Ninjaing my salvage. I usually don't salvage unless the mission is in the same system as I am in as the time to change ships, warp 1-6 systems away takes to long and I can get on with another mission. I do however announce in corp chat, local for newer players to feel free to tag along and feel free to mission, or even trade them the bookmarks. But to say missioning is risk less is totally not correct! To the OP... CCP has stated in the past that salvaging someone else's wreck is not thieving! Only taking things from the wreck is. So your argument has no merit.
Jesslyn Daggererux Gallente Show me yarrs ill show you mine	Posted - 2008.11.12 01:56:00 - [19] i am lazy. okay, now that is stated front and center...ccp devs have stated that level 4 high sec missions are not currently risk/reward balanced. id copy and paste that so youd read it again, but i am lazy. i will also not bother linking it... /search it. they are thinking of moving high quality 4s to lowsec. /search i will not say 4s are riskless, just like saying highsec is safe. its not, just more safe. your only denying it while praying for AE, wishing and hoping they dont change your easy isk making. please, dont say a line of BS. you know its true. salvage has been stated several times to be working as intended. you guessed it. /search if you raven using caldari pilots whine about this, youll only get shot in the foot again. miss them missiles huh? remember nanos? i didnt use a nano. im glad i didnt invest alot of money in rigs/implants now. your implying these salvage theives are stealing the cargo too. do not mistake the two. also, even if they theif their friends ready to 'blow you to bits' cant help. im sorry you do not understand the agression system. dont forget, theres nothing keeping you from not getting some friends to rep you, especially if they are doing it too...assuming you have friends. sooo if salvage is working as intended, and you have a viable means to fight back via friends (assuming you do not play this game as if it were single player and have friends) then where is the problem? far as any realistic thinker is concerned your missioning on borrowed time. we know you wont go to lowsec to mission. last thing id just like to say. i have heard that, in the beginning, jet cans did not give agro. da bears whined, it was changed. corp agro for stealing a can. and what is the primary use of stealing a can now? thats right...to get agro to trick nubs into pvp. what makes you think salvage agro would be any different? the only people youd stop salvaging is the somewhat honest guy who would warp into your mission, just salvage, and if you asked him to, may even leave. the rest of us will be able to skip a step. dont even need to loot anymore, just salvage for agro to get nubs to attack us. it would kind of be helping us. why would i tell you this? your whining annoys me. why should devs worry about a mechanic we will only exploit (negative connotation be damned, ill use it)further and instead work on real issues. stop whining, your only helping me...and annoying alot of people.
Jesslyn Daggererux Gallente Show me yarrs ill show you mine	Posted - 2008.11.12 02:01:00 - [20] Originally by: OldWolfe Edited by: OldWolfe on 12/11/2008 01:00:00 And in addition to that, if the thiefÆs ship is destroyed or got him/herself podded, there will be no kill rights given to the salvagerÆs thief. Also, when mission runners shoot the thief, the aggression timer will not pass onto the thiefÆs group of friends. In addition, the aggression countdown will only exist within missions and automatically end when mission runner or thief leaves the mission area. im sorry i gotta quote this. and bold the funny part. this only highlights in my post that you do not understand agro. please, stop. im unable to sit in my chair anymore im laughing so hard. your a riot.
Plim Gallente Oursulaert Technology Institute	Posted - 2008.11.12 02:02:00 - [21] Originally by: Blastil Originally by: Plim Salvaging someone else's wreck should have you flagged to them. Then the term 'ninja salvaging' might actually mean something in empire. IRL- Salvage is legaly considered owned by the man who did the salvagin work, assuming that the actual item in question was destroyed or rendered unusable before salvage. You cannot "salvage" your neigbor's car, however you can salvage wrecked cars from salvage yards, or naval hulks. In EVE- Salvage is legaly (by concord) considered to be owned by the man who did the salvaging work. Loot from the can is essentially salvage also, but it still results in flagging to take it. With this in mind it seems logical that salvaging the can from which you cannot take loot without flagging, should also result in flagging. You provide a weak rationalisation, the real world analogy is irrelevant. Concord cosider the salvage to be owned by the salvager because that is the current game mechanic chosen by CCP. What matters is what is good for the game. Personally I think that salvaging the wrecks from someone else's mission should result in flagging because it would promote PVP. The people arguing otherwise remind me of the empire carebears who want no risk. Wouldn't it be more fun if they could shoot you? Plus when they do, you can blow them up, which leaves another wreck for you to salvage, and that's fun right? (WTF?) Note, I don't salvage from missions, it's extremely dull. The last time a ninja salvager turned up in my mission I blew up all the wrecks. I would have let him have them if he'd asked EVE 'Megacorp or STFU' Online
Anaalys Fluuterby Caldari	Posted - 2008.11.12 02:16:00 - [22] Originally by: OldWolfe Concord ôWe as an entity do not recognize nor support salvager thievesÆ conducts or activities within Empire space. Those who conduct such activities within Empire space runs at their own risk and will not be under ConcordÆs blanket of protections.ö See, you got it wrong right here. GM Faulcho clearly said: Quote: The players are salvaging what is effectively floating rubbish in space and Concord places no value on this wreckage. Notice the "Concord places no value on this wreckage". CCP has stated multiple times that salvaging is not theft, or that there is any exploit. It is intended game mechanics.... ------------------------------------------------- Originally by: CCP Wrangler Not it isn't, people should be encouraged to get out in low sec space, but never forced to do so.
Mika Meroko Minmatar Crayon Posting Inc	Posted - 2008.11.12 02:19:00 - [23] think of it this way: Originally, you need to remove loot to salvage people's wrecks... which flags you to guy who popped the ship... CCP changed it so you dont need to do that.... Gee.. I wonder if it is an "intended" feature of the salvaging profession? Originally by: CCP Atropos I pod people because there's money to be made in selling tears.
Joss Sparq Caldari ANZAC ALLIANCE Southern Cross Alliance	Posted - 2008.11.12 02:32:00 - [24] If I was at home I'd just post the links from the Devs/GMs I've saved for just this sort of thread and be done with it, but since I'm on my lunch break now I've written a brief summary for everyone. Originally by: OldWolfe Greed. Greed. Greed. Greed. Greed. Greed. Greed. Greed. Greed. Greed. Greed. Greed. Greed. Greed. Greed. Greed. Greed. Greed. Greed. Greed. Greed. Greed. Greed. Greed. Greed. Greed. Greed. Greed. Greed. Greed. Greed. Greed. Greed. Greed. Greed. Greed. Greed. Greed. Greed. Greed. Greed. Greed. Greed. Greed. Greed. Greed. Greed. Greed. Greed. Greed. Greed. Cowardice. As with most of these threads "about" salvage.
Molly Mayhem	Posted - 2008.11.12 02:44:00 - [25] Originally by: OldWolfe whine cry whine cry whine cry whine cry whine cry whine cry whine cry whine cry whine cry whine cry whine cry whine cry whine cry whine cry whine cry whine cry whine cry whine cry whine cry whine cry whine cry whine cry whine cry whine cry whine cry whine cry whine cry whine cry whine cry whine cry whine cry whine cry whine cry whine cry whine cry whine cry whine cry whine cry whine cry whine cry whine cry whine cry whine cry whine cry whine cry whine cry whine cry whine cry whine cry whine cry whine cry whine cry whine cry whine cry whine cry whine cry whine cry whine cry whine cry whine cry whine cry whine cry whine cry whine cry whine cry whine cry whine cry whine cry whine cry whine cry whine cry whine cry whine cry whine cry whine cry whine cry whine cry whine cry whine cry whine cry whine cry whine cry whine cry whine cry I approve of this message, and thanks for the free loots.
Zaknussem Caldari The Ironbreakers	Posted - 2008.11.12 02:45:00 - [26] Edited by: Zaknussem on 12/11/2008 02:46:16 Here's a thought: Currently, wrecks and their contents are said to "belong" to the player (and/or his corp) that owned the ship the wreck is from. The exception to this are NPC ships, which are said to "belong" to whomever destroyed the ship. So why not change that? Make the wrecks the property of the pilot that flew it, even if it was an NPC? An Angel ship would belong to the Angel Cartel, a Blood Raider ship would belong to the Blood Raiders, and so on. Basically, whomever got to the NPC wreck first would own both the wreck and its contents by right of possession. Yes, even the items too. It would literally be a race to get the loot. Mission-vital ships and/or containers would still be flagged to the mission runner's corp to prevent the griefers from having a total lulz-day with this, but besides that, where's the problem? This would not only make ninja salvaging a more viable profession, but more importantly it would be the mission-running nerf that all the "carebear-haters" seem to be whining for. Plus it fits in perfectly with the "Real Life salvaging rights" issue. A mission runner could still make loads of money plying his trade, but he would no longer be able to just pick up "free loot" whenever it suits him because it already has his name on it - he would have to take it to be able to claim it as his own. Regardless of what I wrote above and your opinions of it, I agree with the OP that salvaging is unbalanced and needs to be addressed, though I can't exactly agree with his proposal. 2 nights ago I was travelling a distance of 10 jumps, and as a result of two 2-minute stops along the way, I gained 20 million ISK worth of salvage components. With no additional risk to myself. An extreme example mostly based on luck, but there you go. Theoretically, that's 300 million ISK an hour. I only name this number because so many people here like to pull similar numbers out of thin air to (dis)prove a point. Name me any profession in EvE that has the possibility of such a high profit p/hour with no additional risk involved besides being undocked. Now try to convince anybody that such a profession is "working as intended".
Kahega Amielden Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2008.11.12 02:51:00 - [27] Wouldn't be a balanced nerf. MRs would still get huge risk free income the majority of the time and it would just mean that another profession (ninjaing) gets huge risk free income. A blanket bounty/salvage/loot nerf in hisec missions is just the best answer. Also, the difference in LP gain from .5 to .4 spaces should be FAR greater than the difference between .6 and .5, but it's not. Originally by: Catharacta My CNR runs on salvager tears.
Lady Aja Caldari Ore Mongers Black Hand.	Posted - 2008.11.12 02:54:00 - [28] Originally by: Blastil Originally by: The Geoman "Riskless" describes salvage ninjas. Yes, I know that this applies to highsec only, but perhaps it is time to add some risk to it? hire a nooblet in a frigate for half a mil to defend your salvage. Or pay a noob half the salvage to salvage for you.. THIS! Many kudos to Foulque for my sig..
Lady Aja Caldari Ore Mongers Black Hand.	Posted - 2008.11.12 02:57:00 - [29] Originally by: Kahega Amielden Wouldn't be a balanced nerf. MRs would still get huge risk free income the majority of the time and it would just mean that another profession (ninjaing) gets huge risk free income. A blanket bounty/salvage/loot nerf in hisec missions is just the best answer. Also, the difference in LP gain from .5 to .4 spaces should be FAR greater than the difference between .6 and .5, but it's not. to be honest!? If i was to do hi sec missions I would at least offer you guys to collect what ever you want. bar tags. IE: keep loot and salvage just hand me the tags. way i see it. if you bite the hand that feeds you, youre back to doing it the hard way. Many kudos to Foulque for my sig..
Danton Marcellus Nebula Rasa Holdings	Posted - 2008.11.12 02:58:00 - [30] I'd be perfectly content if they could only make it so you can tractor any can or wreck in 0.0, it's 0.0 after all. Should/would/could have, HAVE you chav! Also Known As

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