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Restructuring and Rebalancing Salvage Thievery

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OldWolfe The Scope	Posted - 2008.11.12 00:58:00 - [1] I am going to clear something up before I start the structuring of my ideas below. I have nothing and everything against salvaging thieves. I do understand that it is a dog eats dog universe which is why IÆm taking the time to come up with this lines and paths of ideas to present to the masses and mainly to CCP. Due to the nature of salvaging thievery in this game, there are strong needs to rebalance and give structures for a more fair and realistic environment to the whole idea of salvaging and those who steals. Without further ado, here I present my composition of ideas and modifications. Redefining of ideas Wreckages and loot cans First off, there have been quite a few issues revolving around what is wreckage and what is ôloot cansö. In the reality of things, when something gets destroy, it does not fall neatly and politely into ôloot cansö. It gets all mangled up and quite beaten up if not broken all over the place (and if you say, ôOh phaw! ItÆs just a gameö then do not bother to approach this in all the ways that appeals to our human senses and ignore all of CCPÆs efforts to make it as realistic space MMO as they possibly can). When it comes to destroying ships in this game, be it NPC or player ships, I do not see how loots can non-chaotically rearrange itself into loot cans and leave everything else into wreckages (unless items and mods were already in a cargo can, unused by the ship in itÆs fittings layouts). And how in this game can loots be player owned but wreckage is not when both came from the same ship? Lions of old earth see their kill as their own and will protect it viciously against hyenas or any other salvaging creatures. Most the times lions wins butàwell hyenas also wins when theyÆre lucky once in a long while. Same should go with our loot wreckage, itÆs a dog eats dog universe, mission runners takes first claim within an environment. Here is my restructuring of the idea behind wreckage and loot cans. Since a lot of the mods that were fitted to the ship capable of surviving, let there be a new design that takes out the mods in process of salvaging the overall wreck in question, at the same time or at least approach it in a more intertwined way rather than being exclusive of one another. After all, we have salvaging beams that can do both roles equally. More of this kind of justification below. Salvaging thieves and our inability to directly fight back without penalty Ever since salvaging entered this game some time ago, it has constantly been a controversial issue among all pilots in this game that are either for or against various aspects of it. One of the most controversial issues is of course, salvaging thieves. Here are the problems as we have it. On the mission runnerÆs side The only way we can fight them is by the following: -Shoot them and kill them and hope they do not have friends standing by -Shoot them and hope they donÆt have a PVP ship standing by -Shoot the wreckages -Let them have it On the salvaging thieves side: -Have friends standing by -Have PVP ships standing by -Are not afraid to lose their ships -Profit -And more profit As you can see, the mission runners loses out in profit on any of those choices for the most part (and how exactly common is it for a polite salvager thieve to leave you alone with out being an asshat? Not very common at all). The additional downside is that mission runners have all the odds stacked against them due to mission runner outfits, salvaging thiefÆs friends or PVP ships, loss of profits from shooting wrecks, and many more.
OldWolfe The Scope	Posted - 2008.11.12 00:59:00 - [2] Edited by: OldWolfe on 12/11/2008 01:00:00 Here is my proposed solution: Since MWD has been effectively disabled inside missions, I can see these ideas easily applied. Whenever a salvager thief enters a mission while not in the mission runnerÆs group, the thief is putting himself at risk of being podded by the mission runner with no Concord intervention. And in addition to that, if the thiefÆs ship is destroyed or got him/herself podded, there will be no kill rights given to the salvagerÆs thief. Also, when mission runners shoot the thief, the aggression timer will not pass onto the thiefÆs group of friends. In addition, the aggression countdown will only exist within missions and automatically end when mission runner or thief leaves the mission area. Justifications? Concord ôWe as an entity do not recognize nor support salvager thievesÆ conducts or activities within Empire space. Those who conduct such activities within Empire space runs at their own risk and will not be under ConcordÆs blanket of protections.ö After all, if Concord catches drug runners and other criminal activities including negative sec standing (shoot on sight if -5.0, etc), why would they give support to salvaging thieves within mission grounds? ItÆs a dog eats dog universe, Law and Order vs. chaotic criminal units. How those ideas and new structures impacts mission running? It will create a more balance mission running environment where the risk vs. reward is well established with risk of actually losing ship/pod to mission runners. Mission runners can still lose profit from the thievery but it also allows mission runners to have a mean to fight back with no risk of being ganked from aggression countdowns outside of mission areas or month-long kill rights or ConcordÆs interventions. This should help remove the thiefÆs feeling of being in cozy one-sided linear environments that protects thieves from consequences of their own actions and at the same time insert a more balanced and realistic risk with potential penalty for their criminal activities of choice. Now back to the wreckage and loot can readjustments. Since a lot of salvager thieves donÆt really care nor have any fear of the mission runners, they tend to take it all, both wreckage and loots. With the changing of Wreckage and loots being combined into one body and causes the thief to flash red when they molest with the wreckages, the fight for the wreckage begins should the mission runner decide he/she wants to, using the new rebalanced adjustments listed above while the thief clearly understands the risk they are encountering should they decide to stand against mission runners for the wreckages. The idea above still needs to be fleshed out some more, naturally. But the whole concept behind it is to rebalance the whole conceptualizations of wreckage and loot cans with salvaging thiefÆs roles with a more non-linear if not more a detailed fleshed out environment for mission runners and salvaging thieves to exist within, making it a more balanced experience. The current version of things is a very one sided environment sacked in the salvaging thiefÆs favor. Well, thatÆs all for now. Now to go nurse my eye infectionà
Blastil	Posted - 2008.11.12 01:04:00 - [3] most Ninja looters I know of operate solo, and/or do not have PVP alts. Ninja Looting is an important aspect of EVE, not just because its part of a dog-eat-dog world, but it cleans up the ****ty lag you missionrunners leave behind in the form of wrecks. I realize that you want to hide in Highsec and make oscene amounts of ISK, but seriously, it has to stop somewhere. Maybe try nerfing your DPS to fit salvagers and tractorbeams and salvage while doing your mission. However, the novel idea of SOLVING a problem before whining about it is lost on carebears. Adeu.
OldWolfe The Scope	Posted - 2008.11.12 01:14:00 - [4] Originally by: Blastil most Ninja looters I know of operate solo, and/or do not have PVP alts. Ninja Looting is an important aspect of EVE, not just because its part of a dog-eat-dog world, but it cleans up the ****ty lag you missionrunners leave behind in the form of wrecks. I realize that you want to hide in Highsec and make oscene amounts of ISK, but seriously, it has to stop somewhere. Maybe try nerfing your DPS to fit salvagers and tractorbeams and salvage while doing your mission. However, the novel idea of SOLVING a problem before whining about it is lost on carebears. Adeu. You seem to fail to realize that the above design I set out is to re-balance it, NOT remove salvaging thieves. Read it -again- and actually see the various points that can improve the aspects of this game involving the above topics.
Kahega Amielden Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2008.11.12 01:17:00 - [5] Edited by: Kahega Amielden on 12/11/2008 01:18:17 You can't steal salvage. Salvage is a miniprofession, not free extra loots for the missionrunner. Just because MRs like to have a riskless, totally noncompetitive profession to make a **ton of money doesn't mean that other EVE professions need to go the same way. Wrecks floating in space are the property of no one and can be freely harvested, like asteroids. If you would like to shoot people harvesting the resources that you would like to harvest, then lowsec is ----> that way. Originally by:** Catharacta My CNR runs on salvager tears.
Icarus Flame Amarr	Posted - 2008.11.12 01:19:00 - [6] GTFO whiney carebear. This sort of thing has been proposed many times, and always CCP has said that it's working as intended. A level 4 mission is the one thing in EvE that is a risk-free way to make ISK. The whole system is screwed up, IMO - there should be no such risk-free ISK faucets. The fact that you're whining about someone taking advantage of your labor in such a manner just goes to show that you wish EVE was a single player PVE game. The wreck belongs to no one, of course. If CCP was going to implement this, they would have done it already. Go play WoW.
The Geoman Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2008.11.12 01:20:00 - [7] Originally by: Kahega Amielden Edited by: Kahega Amielden on 12/11/2008 01:18:17 You can't steal salvage. Salvage is a miniprofession, not free extra loots for the missionrunner. Just because MRs like to have a riskless, totally noncompetitive profession to make a ****ton of money doesn't mean that other EVE professions need to go the same way. Wrecks floating in space are the property of no one and can be freely harvested, like asteroids. If you would like to shoot people harvesting the resources that you would like to harvest, then lowsec is ----> that way. "Riskless" describes salvage ninjas. Yes, I know that this applies to highsec only, but perhaps it is time to add some risk to it?
Kahega Amielden Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2008.11.12 01:22:00 - [8] Edited by: Kahega Amielden on 12/11/2008 01:23:14 Right when you add some risk to missions. I agree to the following nerf to ninjasalvaging: Nerf the ** out of level 4 missions in hisec until they're actually balanced with other professions ISK-wise. This would naturally include a nerf to salvaging which would hurt ninjas. Good enough for you? Originally by:** Catharacta My CNR runs on salvager tears.
OldWolfe The Scope	Posted - 2008.11.12 01:26:00 - [9] It's too bad people don't know how to read constructive creations on the forum these days. Sadly, the mentality of World of Warcraft is invading the mindset of EVE players. Oh well. Waits for constructive critiques/additions instead of cliche crying about healthy clear thread posts
Kahega Amielden Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2008.11.12 01:28:00 - [10] So you can't defend this stupid idea that would only serve to perpetuate the idea that salvage is free loots and that the most imbalanced profession in EVE would be made even better, and you can only serve to make vague insults that make no sense whatsoever Now that that's settled, /thread Originally by: Catharacta My CNR runs on salvager tears.
Blastil	Posted - 2008.11.12 01:29:00 - [11] Originally by: The Geoman "Riskless" describes salvage ninjas. Yes, I know that this applies to highsec only, but perhaps it is time to add some risk to it? Absolute lie. If you REALLY don't like ninja salvagers, Fit a point and a web in your mids and kill the guy. Or hire a nooblet in a frigate for half a mil to defend your salvage. Or pay a noob half the salvage to salvage for you. Or salvage your OWN damn mission. Or get a marauder which are DESIGNED to salvage off missions. Or get layed, and stop caring. Or make a game out of it, and take a swig of beer every time a wreck is 'stolen' from you. Or quit carebearing and play the damn game. Go out and mine, stretch your legs a little and hit up 0.0 or lowsec. Making a 2 page epic whine post about salvage problems ISN"T the way to solve problems in EVE, especially with a TOTALLY BALANCED MECHANIC. If you refuse to use the counter, then that's your own damn fault for refusing to use a game-approved counter to the problems. They exist, and are VERY viable. QFT.
Lilo Gerantis	Posted - 2008.11.12 01:29:00 - [12] Originally by: Icarus Flame GTFO whiney carebear. A level 4 mission is the one thing in EvE that is a risk-free way to make ISK. The whole system is screwed up, IMO - there should be no such risk-free ISK faucets. . Actually to say it is Riskless is incorrect. I've seen it mentioned numerous times. You are at risk anytime you undock! Losing a CNR with Faction mods isn't riskless. There is a large investment involved. I have no problem with someone coming in and Ninjaing my salvage. I usually don't salvage unless the mission is in the same system as I am in as the time to change ships, warp 1-6 systems away takes to long and I can get on with another mission. I do however anounce in corp chat, local for newer players to feel free to tag along and feel free to mission, or even trade them the bookmarks. But to say missioning is riskless is totally not correct!
The Geoman Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2008.11.12 01:30:00 - [13] Lol, some very angry people in here. The OP must have hit a nerve.
E Vile Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.11.12 01:33:00 - [14] Just group with fellow mission runners and solo your missions. If someone comes to ninja loot and brings friends when you shoot them, have all your group warp in and spring the trap. Problem solved, and a few possible killmails to boot.
Plim Gallente Oursulaert Technology Institute	Posted - 2008.11.12 01:33:00 - [15] Salvaging someone else's wreck should have you flagged to them. Then the term 'ninja salvaging' might actually mean something in empire. EVE 'Megacorp or STFU' Online
Blastil	Posted - 2008.11.12 01:39:00 - [16] Originally by: Plim Salvaging someone else's wreck should have you flagged to them. Then the term 'ninja salvaging' might actually mean something in empire. IRL- Salvage is legaly considered owned by the man who did the salvagin work, assuming that the actual item in question was destroyed or rendered unusable before salvage. You cannot "salvage" your neigbor's car, however you can salvage wrecked cars from salvage yards, or naval hulks. In EVE- Salvage is legaly (by concord) considered to be owned by the man who did the salvaging work.
Vaal Erit Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2008.11.12 01:39:00 - [17] Wow, so you want a salvage thief to be some kind of super criminal with worse penalties than in low sec just because he salvaged some space junk in hi-sec? God, GTFO whiny carebear is the correct answer here. -- http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html
Lilo Gerantis	Posted - 2008.11.12 01:45:00 - [18] Originally by: Icarus Flame GTFO whiney carebear. A level 4 mission is the one thing in EvE that is a risk-free way to make ISK. The whole system is screwed up, IMO - there should be no such risk-free ISK faucets. . Actually to say it is Riskless is incorrect. I've seen it mentioned numerous times. You are at risk anytime you undock! Losing a CNR with Faction mods isn't riskless. There is a large investment involved. With a chance of having it all blown to bits. Just because it isn't a pc blowing it up doesn't mean it's risk less! I have no problem with someone coming in and Ninjaing my salvage. I usually don't salvage unless the mission is in the same system as I am in as the time to change ships, warp 1-6 systems away takes to long and I can get on with another mission. I do however announce in corp chat, local for newer players to feel free to tag along and feel free to mission, or even trade them the bookmarks. But to say missioning is risk less is totally not correct! To the OP... CCP has stated in the past that salvaging someone else's wreck is not thieving! Only taking things from the wreck is. So your argument has no merit.
Jesslyn Daggererux Gallente Show me yarrs ill show you mine	Posted - 2008.11.12 01:56:00 - [19] i am lazy. okay, now that is stated front and center...ccp devs have stated that level 4 high sec missions are not currently risk/reward balanced. id copy and paste that so youd read it again, but i am lazy. i will also not bother linking it... /search it. they are thinking of moving high quality 4s to lowsec. /search i will not say 4s are riskless, just like saying highsec is safe. its not, just more safe. your only denying it while praying for AE, wishing and hoping they dont change your easy isk making. please, dont say a line of BS. you know its true. salvage has been stated several times to be working as intended. you guessed it. /search if you raven using caldari pilots whine about this, youll only get shot in the foot again. miss them missiles huh? remember nanos? i didnt use a nano. im glad i didnt invest alot of money in rigs/implants now. your implying these salvage theives are stealing the cargo too. do not mistake the two. also, even if they theif their friends ready to 'blow you to bits' cant help. im sorry you do not understand the agression system. dont forget, theres nothing keeping you from not getting some friends to rep you, especially if they are doing it too...assuming you have friends. sooo if salvage is working as intended, and you have a viable means to fight back via friends (assuming you do not play this game as if it were single player and have friends) then where is the problem? far as any realistic thinker is concerned your missioning on borrowed time. we know you wont go to lowsec to mission. last thing id just like to say. i have heard that, in the beginning, jet cans did not give agro. da bears whined, it was changed. corp agro for stealing a can. and what is the primary use of stealing a can now? thats right...to get agro to trick nubs into pvp. what makes you think salvage agro would be any different? the only people youd stop salvaging is the somewhat honest guy who would warp into your mission, just salvage, and if you asked him to, may even leave. the rest of us will be able to skip a step. dont even need to loot anymore, just salvage for agro to get nubs to attack us. it would kind of be helping us. why would i tell you this? your whining annoys me. why should devs worry about a mechanic we will only exploit (negative connotation be damned, ill use it)further and instead work on real issues. stop whining, your only helping me...and annoying alot of people.
Jesslyn Daggererux Gallente Show me yarrs ill show you mine	Posted - 2008.11.12 02:01:00 - [20] Originally by: OldWolfe Edited by: OldWolfe on 12/11/2008 01:00:00 And in addition to that, if the thiefÆs ship is destroyed or got him/herself podded, there will be no kill rights given to the salvagerÆs thief. Also, when mission runners shoot the thief, the aggression timer will not pass onto the thiefÆs group of friends. In addition, the aggression countdown will only exist within missions and automatically end when mission runner or thief leaves the mission area. im sorry i gotta quote this. and bold the funny part. this only highlights in my post that you do not understand agro. please, stop. im unable to sit in my chair anymore im laughing so hard. your a riot.
Plim Gallente Oursulaert Technology Institute	Posted - 2008.11.12 02:02:00 - [21] Originally by: Blastil Originally by: Plim Salvaging someone else's wreck should have you flagged to them. Then the term 'ninja salvaging' might actually mean something in empire. IRL- Salvage is legaly considered owned by the man who did the salvagin work, assuming that the actual item in question was destroyed or rendered unusable before salvage. You cannot "salvage" your neigbor's car, however you can salvage wrecked cars from salvage yards, or naval hulks. In EVE- Salvage is legaly (by concord) considered to be owned by the man who did the salvaging work. Loot from the can is essentially salvage also, but it still results in flagging to take it. With this in mind it seems logical that salvaging the can from which you cannot take loot without flagging, should also result in flagging. You provide a weak rationalisation, the real world analogy is irrelevant. Concord cosider the salvage to be owned by the salvager because that is the current game mechanic chosen by CCP. What matters is what is good for the game. Personally I think that salvaging the wrecks from someone else's mission should result in flagging because it would promote PVP. The people arguing otherwise remind me of the empire carebears who want no risk. Wouldn't it be more fun if they could shoot you? Plus when they do, you can blow them up, which leaves another wreck for you to salvage, and that's fun right? (WTF?) Note, I don't salvage from missions, it's extremely dull. The last time a ninja salvager turned up in my mission I blew up all the wrecks. I would have let him have them if he'd asked EVE 'Megacorp or STFU' Online
Anaalys Fluuterby Caldari	Posted - 2008.11.12 02:16:00 - [22] Originally by: OldWolfe Concord ôWe as an entity do not recognize nor support salvager thievesÆ conducts or activities within Empire space. Those who conduct such activities within Empire space runs at their own risk and will not be under ConcordÆs blanket of protections.ö See, you got it wrong right here. GM Faulcho clearly said: Quote: The players are salvaging what is effectively floating rubbish in space and Concord places no value on this wreckage. Notice the "Concord places no value on this wreckage". CCP has stated multiple times that salvaging is not theft, or that there is any exploit. It is intended game mechanics.... ------------------------------------------------- Originally by: CCP Wrangler Not it isn't, people should be encouraged to get out in low sec space, but never forced to do so.
Mika Meroko Minmatar Crayon Posting Inc	Posted - 2008.11.12 02:19:00 - [23] think of it this way: Originally, you need to remove loot to salvage people's wrecks... which flags you to guy who popped the ship... CCP changed it so you dont need to do that.... Gee.. I wonder if it is an "intended" feature of the salvaging profession? Originally by: CCP Atropos I pod people because there's money to be made in selling tears.
Joss Sparq Caldari ANZAC ALLIANCE Southern Cross Alliance	Posted - 2008.11.12 02:32:00 - [24] If I was at home I'd just post the links from the Devs/GMs I've saved for just this sort of thread and be done with it, but since I'm on my lunch break now I've written a brief summary for everyone. Originally by: OldWolfe Greed. Greed. Greed. Greed. Greed. Greed. Greed. Greed. Greed. Greed. Greed. Greed. Greed. Greed. Greed. Greed. Greed. Greed. Greed. Greed. Greed. Greed. Greed. Greed. Greed. Greed. Greed. Greed. Greed. Greed. Greed. Greed. Greed. Greed. Greed. Greed. Greed. Greed. Greed. Greed. Greed. Greed. Greed. Greed. Greed. Greed. Greed. Greed. Greed. Greed. Greed. Cowardice. As with most of these threads "about" salvage.
Molly Mayhem	Posted - 2008.11.12 02:44:00 - [25] Originally by: OldWolfe whine cry whine cry whine cry whine cry whine cry whine cry whine cry whine cry whine cry whine cry whine cry whine cry whine cry whine cry whine cry whine cry whine cry whine cry whine cry whine cry whine cry whine cry whine cry whine cry whine cry whine cry whine cry whine cry whine cry whine cry whine cry whine cry whine cry whine cry whine cry whine cry whine cry whine cry whine cry whine cry whine cry whine cry whine cry whine cry whine cry whine cry whine cry whine cry whine cry whine cry whine cry whine cry whine cry whine cry whine cry whine cry whine cry whine cry whine cry whine cry whine cry whine cry whine cry whine cry whine cry whine cry whine cry whine cry whine cry whine cry whine cry whine cry whine cry whine cry whine cry whine cry whine cry whine cry whine cry whine cry whine cry whine cry whine cry whine cry I approve of this message, and thanks for the free loots.
Zaknussem Caldari The Ironbreakers	Posted - 2008.11.12 02:45:00 - [26] Edited by: Zaknussem on 12/11/2008 02:46:16 Here's a thought: Currently, wrecks and their contents are said to "belong" to the player (and/or his corp) that owned the ship the wreck is from. The exception to this are NPC ships, which are said to "belong" to whomever destroyed the ship. So why not change that? Make the wrecks the property of the pilot that flew it, even if it was an NPC? An Angel ship would belong to the Angel Cartel, a Blood Raider ship would belong to the Blood Raiders, and so on. Basically, whomever got to the NPC wreck first would own both the wreck and its contents by right of possession. Yes, even the items too. It would literally be a race to get the loot. Mission-vital ships and/or containers would still be flagged to the mission runner's corp to prevent the griefers from having a total lulz-day with this, but besides that, where's the problem? This would not only make ninja salvaging a more viable profession, but more importantly it would be the mission-running nerf that all the "carebear-haters" seem to be whining for. Plus it fits in perfectly with the "Real Life salvaging rights" issue. A mission runner could still make loads of money plying his trade, but he would no longer be able to just pick up "free loot" whenever it suits him because it already has his name on it - he would have to take it to be able to claim it as his own. Regardless of what I wrote above and your opinions of it, I agree with the OP that salvaging is unbalanced and needs to be addressed, though I can't exactly agree with his proposal. 2 nights ago I was travelling a distance of 10 jumps, and as a result of two 2-minute stops along the way, I gained 20 million ISK worth of salvage components. With no additional risk to myself. An extreme example mostly based on luck, but there you go. Theoretically, that's 300 million ISK an hour. I only name this number because so many people here like to pull similar numbers out of thin air to (dis)prove a point. Name me any profession in EvE that has the possibility of such a high profit p/hour with no additional risk involved besides being undocked. Now try to convince anybody that such a profession is "working as intended".
Kahega Amielden Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2008.11.12 02:51:00 - [27] Wouldn't be a balanced nerf. MRs would still get huge risk free income the majority of the time and it would just mean that another profession (ninjaing) gets huge risk free income. A blanket bounty/salvage/loot nerf in hisec missions is just the best answer. Also, the difference in LP gain from .5 to .4 spaces should be FAR greater than the difference between .6 and .5, but it's not. Originally by: Catharacta My CNR runs on salvager tears.
Lady Aja Caldari Ore Mongers Black Hand.	Posted - 2008.11.12 02:54:00 - [28] Originally by: Blastil Originally by: The Geoman "Riskless" describes salvage ninjas. Yes, I know that this applies to highsec only, but perhaps it is time to add some risk to it? hire a nooblet in a frigate for half a mil to defend your salvage. Or pay a noob half the salvage to salvage for you.. THIS! Many kudos to Foulque for my sig..
Lady Aja Caldari Ore Mongers Black Hand.	Posted - 2008.11.12 02:57:00 - [29] Originally by: Kahega Amielden Wouldn't be a balanced nerf. MRs would still get huge risk free income the majority of the time and it would just mean that another profession (ninjaing) gets huge risk free income. A blanket bounty/salvage/loot nerf in hisec missions is just the best answer. Also, the difference in LP gain from .5 to .4 spaces should be FAR greater than the difference between .6 and .5, but it's not. to be honest!? If i was to do hi sec missions I would at least offer you guys to collect what ever you want. bar tags. IE: keep loot and salvage just hand me the tags. way i see it. if you bite the hand that feeds you, youre back to doing it the hard way. Many kudos to Foulque for my sig..
Danton Marcellus Nebula Rasa Holdings	Posted - 2008.11.12 02:58:00 - [30] I'd be perfectly content if they could only make it so you can tractor any can or wreck in 0.0, it's 0.0 after all. Should/would/could have, HAVE you chav! Also Known As
Marlenus Caldari Ironfleet Towing And Salvage	Posted - 2008.11.12 03:00:00 - [31] Salvage is not theft. So "salvage thief" is a nonsense concept. Thus, the original post fails. Per GM Faolchu : Originally by: GM Faolchu Salvaging other peoples wrecks.... This is an intended game mechanic and is in no way an exploit. People salvaging your missions npcs or the player you just blew up are doing nothing wrong. The players are salvaging what is effectively floating rubbish in space and Concord places no value on this wreckage. Eve is a harsh place you won't always have everything go your way, its a do or die world and people do what they can to get along. If salvaging some wreckage gets them a few more ISK someone will do it, it doesn't matter who just blew it up. Per Senior GM Ytterbium : Originally by: GM Ytterbium Players are still completely free to salvage other pilot wrecks at will ... and doing so is not considered as an exploit. (These quotes are kept handy for your convenience at Ironfleet.com.) ------------------ Ironfleet.com
Sierra Lima	Posted - 2008.11.12 03:21:00 - [32] As a mission runner, I have more than a couple of tricks to use against mission probing salvagers. I'm sure if you put your mind to it you'd be able to think of a couple too. I'd tell you are, but that may cause problems for my other career as a salvager. Tell the truth, Marlenus said above all you really need to know. Up to you to put your thinking-cap on.
OldWolfe The Scope	Posted - 2008.11.12 14:29:00 - [33] Edited by: OldWolfe on 12/11/2008 14:29:13 It's amazing how much crying and whining about constructive ideas are happening across WoW-I mean EVE forums. It really seems like the majority of the posters in this thread has a World of Warcraft mentality. However, there are a few gems here and there (both in favor and in critique of my ideas). I will have to get back to them and give a honest constructive reply later in the day. Just keep one thing in mind, the nano-nerf and ghost training is a classic example of CCP changing it's mind about certain things so the salvaging concept as a whole is NOT set in stone. Back to top.
KaiserSoze434	Posted - 2008.12.20 22:15:00 - [34] The only possible change I can think of that doesnt undermine the entire mechanic is to make mission areas free fire zones for the runners. Whenever a player enters a mission area that isnt theirs they get a warning. "You are entering a concord sanctioned military operation. (player) has the authority to engage all targets within the operational area at his discretion." It fits with the story aspect of the game, and the mission runner has the ability to shoot first to defend the wrecks, if he has the balls.
Emily Spankratchet Minmatar Pragmatics	Posted - 2008.12.20 22:23:00 - [35] Whilst I appreciate the effort you put in to creating a solution to what you see as a problem, I have two short comments: 1) I don't see it as a problem. Nor do CCP. And I'm not even a salvage thief. 2) Before you suggest new game mechanisms, you might like to consider the example of loot theft. It didn't exist years ago. Then the whining of the jet-can miners persuaded CCP to introduce can flagging. If anything, that's created a bigger source of forum whining than the original problem. (Also, should be in Features & Ideas)
Tippia Raddick Explorations BlackWater.	Posted - 2008.12.20 22:24:00 - [36] Originally by: OldWolfe Due to the nature of salvaging thievery in this game, there are strong needs to rebalance and give structures for a more fair and realistic environment to the whole idea of salvaging and those who steals. Not very convincing. What are these "strong needs to rebalance and give structure" to salvaging? I'm sure your ideas are fine and dandy, but why are they needed? "The nature of salvaging thievery" doesn't cut it as an argument because it is completely void of meaning. No sig for me, thankyouverymuch.
Zeba Minmatar Pator Tech School	Posted - 2008.12.20 22:35:00 - [37] Originally by: OldWolfe It's too bad people don't know how to read constructive creations on the forum these days. Sadly, the mentality of World of Warcraft is invading the mindset of EVE players. Oh well. Waits for constructive critiques/additions instead of cliche crying about healthy clear thread posts Here is my proposed solution: Open up the info page of whatever faction you happen to be running missions for and open up its member corps tab. Go down the list of corps infoing each one looking for agents that meet your quality standards. Realize in awe that my god there are zillions of high quality agents faaaaar faaaaar away from the mission hubs in perfectly safe high sec nowhere near nasty low sec. Laugh as your the only one in local besides a few miners and lost n00bs as you turbo run all your missions with no interference from anyone. Now wasn't that much easier than subjecting yourself to the forums? inappropriate signature. ~WeatherMan
AkRoYeR Amarr	Posted - 2008.12.20 22:47:00 - [38] @ OP...posting on these forums means you are prepared to eat a **** sandwich and like it. Now that we got that out of the way...your idea has merit except for on thing..this is EvE Online so stop whining aout how you want an openly dynamic game to become something like playing Galactic Civilizations.
Agor Dirdonen	Posted - 2008.12.20 23:35:00 - [39] You keep accusing the others of 'coming from Wow', yet the only thing I keep thinking when I read your posts is that you want it more like 'Wow'. '100 percent risk-free, everything is mine, leave me alone' play style. Sad really....
Gnomes Rock	Posted - 2008.12.20 23:35:00 - [40] Edited by: Gnomes Rock on 20/12/2008 23:38:33 The fact that the OP is in an NPC corp makes this post even funnier. Edit; join a corp and kill the salvagers? Ohshi, that would require effort.
Tinnian Maso	Posted - 2008.12.20 23:39:00 - [41] Don't see the problem myself. If you aren't going to salvage as you go, pop all the wrecks so the ninja salvagers go bug someone else.
Benco97 Gallente Friendly Archaeology Group of Inder	Posted - 2008.12.20 23:43:00 - [42] No. Pick up the junk first if you want it, simple as that. You're not playing a single-player game you know (No matter how much the mission runners would like to think so). Originally by: P'uck You're a DUMBASS - bold italic underline at the VERY LEAST.
VicturusTeSaluto Metafarmers	Posted - 2008.12.20 23:54:00 - [43] "salvage thievery," makes no sense at all as a basic concept. By design, salvage is waste and belongs to no one at all. No owner, no theft.
Ironnight Caldari x13 X13 Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.21 00:08:00 - [44] I have nothing against people that remove junk from the server, let them at it, gogogogogogogogogogo It works as intended move on, the solution is so simpel, move away from the big missionhubs find a nice quiet place to run missions, bonusbenefits includes less lag! They're like 'oh **** son, its a trap ' Doomsday
Hatt0ri Hanz0	Posted - 2008.12.21 00:25:00 - [45] Originally by: OldWolfe Edited by: OldWolfe on 12/11/2008 14:29:13 It's amazing how much crying and whining about constructive ideas are happening across WoW-I mean EVE forums. It really seems like the majority of the posters in this thread has a World of Warcraft mentality. However, there are a few gems here and there (both in favor and in critique of my ideas). I will have to get back to them and give a honest constructive reply later in the day. Just keep one thing in mind, the nano-nerf and ghost training is a classic example of CCP changing it's mind about certain things so the salvaging concept as a whole is NOT set in stone. Back to top.
Kessiaan Minmatar Army of One	Posted - 2008.12.21 02:16:00 - [46] Wrecks should be scannable if there's no player ships nearby (within, say, a million KMs). Other than that everything is fine, IMO. If you don't want your crap ripped off go someplace less busy. Like lowsec - the last thing people there care about is your salvage. ... besides, I've said all I'm going to say. You're reading my sig now! Bwa! -
Misanth RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE Black Legion.	Posted - 2008.12.21 02:52:00 - [47] Edited by: Misanth on 21/12/2008 02:52:30 Originally by: OldWolfe It's too bad people don't know how to read constructive creations on the forum these days. Sadly, the mentality of World of Warcraft is invading the mindset of EVE players. Oh well. Waits for constructive critiques/additions instead of cliche crying about healthy clear thread posts Actually, there's no need to post constructively when your whole argument is based out of opinions. You feel there's a need to fix this, as if there's something wrong? To those of us who think there's nothing wrong, there's simply no reason and/or thing to reply to your arguments. What kind of constructive posting do you want? I disagree with you, and there's no "facts" on either your or mine side. It's that simple. Just for the record, I have never salvaged anyone elses mission, or rats, but I have had people salvaging wrecks after my kills. Usually when that has happened, I blow up the wrecks, to deny them their income. But I feel they have every right to do what they do. First it takes them time to even find this salvage, and if these guys had half a brain they'd run their own missions and/or ratting and make more isk. So basicly, they're just griefing, probably for fun. So, if I get ***ed and/or decide to fight, I play by their rules and I do exactly what they want. If I ignore them and/or blow up the wrecks, I deny them their fun, and I havn't lost anything but a few extra seconds myself. Now, that's just my own opinions tho, and unfortunately I can't back that up and state it as an absolute truth, because.. well, it's my opinions*, and there's no law or facts that can verify it. Sorry man, your first post was worthy a serious reply (hence why I took my time replying). But your whine about not getting constructive replies, is ignorant. You're not very open minded and accepting that people disagree with you. We gotta agree that there is an issue with salvage "thieving" in the first place, before there's a point to (constructively) discuss solutions to fix that "problem". If there even is one.
Mika Meroko Minmatar Crayon Posting Inc	Posted - 2008.12.21 02:57:00 - [48] I hate to break it to you. but the current mechanic is working as intended.... hell, CCP CHANGED the mechanic to help salvagers (before, you have to loot then salvage... making salvager blinky red..) Originally by: CCP Atropos I pod people because there's money to be made in selling tears.
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Umbra Synergy	Posted - 2008.12.21 02:58:00 - [49] this, like the other 12,372 other topics of the exact same nature, has acheived the necessary amount of fail and may now slide off the front page Fallout thinks im cute! I think so anyway
Terianna Eri Amarr Scrutari	Posted - 2008.12.21 03:05:00 - [50] So, basically, if someone wants your salvage, they go flashy red, get shot by concord, can be shot, and podded (!), by you, and if you shoot them their "friends" (whatever that means) don't get aggro? First of all, I don't think you fully understand how aggro rights are done. Incidentally, if you joined a REAL corp, and someone stole from you, your corpmates (in pvp ships) would be able to jump on them and shoot them. Your proposal gives absolutely everything to the mission runner and absolutely nothing to the salvager. What do you even mean, "someone not in the mission runner's group". Is that their corp? Gang? Alliance? __________________________________ Originally by: Arthur Frayn How much to ruin all your holes, luv?
jst tstng	Posted - 2008.12.21 04:00:00 - [51] Calling salvage thieves salvage thieves shows clearly on what side of the argument you stand. CCP clearly made the act of salvaging a wreck not criminal so salvage extractors or space sweepers would be better names for players who do this. You first say that you think the way modules drop into a can is unrealistic but a mission creating a tiny piece of space where Concord cant see isnt. The question is would anyone run missions if there was no salvage to be had?
Terianna Eri Amarr Scrutari	Posted - 2008.12.21 04:13:00 - [52] Originally by: jst tstng Calling salvage thieves salvage thieves shows clearly on what side of the argument you stand. CCP clearly made the act of salvaging a wreck not criminal so salvage extractors or space sweepers would be better names for players who do this. You first say that you think the way modules drop into a can is unrealistic but a mission creating a tiny piece of space where Concord cant see isnt. The question is would anyone run missions if there was no salvage to be had? Of course they would, they did for years before salvage and rigs even existed __________________________________ Originally by: Arthur Frayn How much to ruin all your holes, luv?

CCP Mitnal C C P	Posted - 2008.12.21 13:02:00 - [53] Moved to Features & Ideas. Mitnal Community Representative CCP Hf, EVE Online Email

Galvatine Caldari Dark Materials	Posted - 2008.12.21 13:11:00 - [54] Originally by: OldWolfe It will create a more balance mission running environment where the risk vs. reward is well established with risk of actually losing ship/pod to mission runners. Mission runners can still lose profit from the thievery but it also allows mission runners to have a mean to fight back with no risk of being ganked from aggression countdowns outside of mission areas or month-long kill rights or ConcordÆs interventions. This should help remove the thiefÆs feeling of being in cozy one-sided linear environments that protects thieves from consequences of their own actions and at the same time insert a more balanced and realistic risk with potential penalty for their criminal activities of choice. When did mission running itself become a "risk vs reward environment"? It is all reward with no risk, ergo salvagers can come in and clean up. If you want to make missions more risky you might get some support here.
Khlitouris RegusII	Posted - 2008.12.21 14:24:00 - [55] no such thing as a salvage thief go away troll.
Joe Starbreaker Starbreaker Frigateers Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2008.12.21 23:07:00 - [56] Originally by: OldWolfe Here is my proposed solution: Since MWD has been effectively disabled inside missions, I can see these ideas easily applied. Whenever a salvager thief enters a mission while not in the mission runnerÆs group, the thief is putting himself at risk of being podded by the mission runner with no Concord intervention. And in addition to that, if the thiefÆs ship is destroyed or got him/herself podded, there will be no kill rights given to the salvagerÆs thief. Also, when mission runners shoot the thief, the aggression timer will not pass onto the thiefÆs group of friends. In addition, the aggression countdown will only exist within missions and automatically end when mission runner or thief leaves the mission area. I support this idea but only if it works for all parties. I.e. mission deadspaces become free-combat zones invisible to Concord. I could be ok with that. ............. Now recruiting like-minded pilots.
Mara Rinn	Posted - 2008.12.21 23:26:00 - [57] I support the suggestion that NPC wrecks should be owned by the NPC corps that spawned the wreck, just like player wrecks are owned by players. We should then be allowed to tractor whatever wreck we can lock on to, with the acts of looting, tractoring or salvaging a wreck flagging us to the owner of the wreck. As an extra buff to ninja-salvagers, I'd like to see anyone who loots, salvages or tractors a wreck outside the mission-runner's fleet be flagged to the mission-runner or the fleet. These changes simultaneously: Increases the risk of level 4 missions so people who think mission-runners are carebears can either start ninja-salvaging or STFU Increases the risk of ninja-salvaging so the real carebears can start enjoying risks commensurate with the rewards Reduces income for mission-runners in popular mission-running hubs Increases the potential income of people willing to take the risk
Onys Cissalc	Posted - 2008.12.22 04:30:00 - [58] Originally by: "OldWolfe" Lions of old earth see their kill as their own and will protect it viciously against hyenas or any other salvaging creatures. Most the times lions wins butàwell hyenas also wins when theyÆre lucky once in a long while. Actually, a small pack of hyenas can often chase a pride of lions away from their prey - I'm talking less hyenas chasing more lions. As for why wrecks and loot goes into the same 'container' - it's a database and user interface lag thing. Imagine for a second you had to split wrecks and loot containers. You are, in this step, doubling the amount of onscreen containers that have to be rendered and UI elements that have to be created. Now let's say you're creating a small cloud of dropped items next to the wreckage - this not only creates an insane amount of rendered items (many of which don't even have models anyway), but also an incomprehensable clutter in the user interface. A justification for why the loot gets neatly placed into a container when a wreck is salvaged? The ship's systems do a courtesy-move for you so that they are not strewn over space, causing the aforementioned issues. Why is it 'legal' for another player to do this? Because like in the real world, in some countries, you have maritime salvage laws. Some of these stipulate that where a ship crashes into reefs, onto a beach or otherwise sinks, the company or owner of the ship is by law given first right to any objects that are still on the ship. However, the wreckage of said ship is free reign for any would be salvagers to come and retrieve, if the owner of the ship does not remove it first. In the same manner, these salvagers are able to, illegally, take items from the wreckage - by law in the real world, the owner(s) of this wreckage may protect their interests by use of force, in some countries. Your outlined 'problems' and the sides details something that I feel you are missing yourself. They have friends - why don't you? You also miss the basic game mechanic fact that if they take loot from your wrecks, you and your entire corp are allowed to shoot at them. Even if they bring in friends, they cannot bring anything further than remote assistance modules. Nothing is stopping you from doing the same. Originally by: "OldWolfe" Whenever a salvager thief enters a mission while not in the mission runnerÆs group, the thief is putting himself at risk of being podded by the mission runner with no Concord intervention. And in addition to that, if the thiefÆs ship is destroyed or got him/herself podded, there will be no kill rights given to the salvagerÆs thief. Also, when mission runners shoot the thief, the aggression timer will not pass onto the thiefÆs group of friends. In addition, the aggression countdown will only exist within missions and automatically end when mission runner or thief leaves the mission area. Ok, let me start top to bottom: 1. The thief is putting himself at risk of being podded by the mission runner with no CONCORD intervention. If it is Empire space, then no. If it is low-sec, then perhaps reduce or remove the security status penalty for podding them. Thing is, how is your mission running ship going to lock their pod before they leave anyway? 2. If the thief's ship is destroyer or they are podded, there will be no kill rights given to the thief. Kill rights are ONLY, let me make this very clear only ever given where a ship is destroyed without having retaliated against their aggressor in any manner, and without having had a flag allowing for what is considered consentual combat 3. When mission runners shoot the thief, the aggression timer will not pass onto the thief's group of friends. It doesn't do this in the game right now - I'm not sure where you came to the conclusion that it does.
Onys Cissalc	Posted - 2008.12.22 04:32:00 - [59] Originally by: "OldWolfe" After all, if Concord catches drug runners and other criminal activities including negative sec standing (shoot on sight if -5.0, etc), why would they give support to salvaging thieves within mission grounds? ItÆs a dog eats dog universe, Law and Order vs. chaotic criminal units. Because CONCORD is giving you your free boat ride already. They will come and intervene if these supposed salvage thieves attack you illegally, or if you attack them illegally. If they take items from your wreckages (refer to the earlier maritime law point), then you are by law allowed to use force to prevent them from further doing so. Whether you do and succeed or not is not CONCORD's issue, as in the same way that these people are taking from your wreckages at their own risk, you are defending it at your own risk. Originally by: "OldWolfe" Mission runners can still lose profit from the thievery but it also allows mission runners to have a mean to fight back with no risk of being ganked from aggression countdowns outside of mission areas or month-long kill rights or ConcordÆs interventions. Refer to my previous note regarding killrights. There is nothing stopping you from sitting in a station or POS and waiting out the aggression countdown. Originally by: "OldWolfe" "Riskless" describes salvage ninjas. There is no sensible ninja salvage ship that can adequately tank the brunt of your average lvl4 mission on its own, without sacrificing aspects of the setup that increase its efficiency to the point that it is sensible for them to actually ninja salvage missions over running their own lvl4 missions for nothing but the bounties and reward/lp. They do, thus, 'risk' something, as they may waste time if you leave your mission, causing the rats to attack them. Originally by: "OldWolfe" It's too bad people don't know how to read constructive creations on the forum these days. Sadly, the mentality of World of Warcraft is invading the mindset of EVE players. Actually, your 'creation' is not constructive, as it has some false points in it, and others that do not balance, but in fact cause issues, in the game mechanics. You want the right to pod a thief in empire. That is what war declarations are for - kill rights don't even give you the right to pod someone, only to blow their ship up once. Originally by: "Blastil Or make a game out of it, and take a swig of beer every time a wreck is 'stolen' from you. You know - now that I've read that, I think I'm going to adopt it towards ninja salvaging... I'll take a swig of beer for every 5 units of Alloyed Trit Bar or Melted Capacitor Console I salvage from someone else's mission! Originally by: "Blastil" IRL- Salvage is legaly considered owned by the man who did the salvagin work, assuming that the actual item in question was destroyed or rendered unusable before salvage. You cannot "salvage" your neigbor's car, however you can salvage wrecked cars from salvage yards, or naval hulks. In EVE- Salvage is legaly (by concord) considered to be owned by the man who did the salvaging work. Glad to see I'm not the only person that has a bit of sense for real world laws, and how they're used in games' mechanics. Before any of you spout "THIS ISN'T THE REAL WORLD, THIS IS A GAME". Tell me, what would you do then if you had no currency to compete with in your game? What would you do if you were not allowed to make use of any virtual portrayal of what could be found in the real world, for whatever purpose it could be used in the real world? Would it not be boring if things that you can and cannot do in the real world were to be removed from your game? I think it would be great fun if we removed the REAL WORLD LAWS that exist in this game that prevent me from simply shooting every other person I see on sight, simply because I can and want to. I think I've about covered what needed to be...
Ashley Thomas Kiith Paktu Nex Eternus	Posted - 2008.12.22 05:58:00 - [60] i used to have your opinion on the matter, but then a few things were pointed out to me. first is simply what would happen if salvaging flagged you answer: so what, you can shoot him, but you wont. why? because you know in the back of your head he can come in with something that will destroy your valuable mission ship. if you do shoot him youll dock up right away to avoid losing your ship when he returns and spend 15 minutes in station, all the while he's out salvaging your wrecks. secondly, there's nothing stopping you from doing it to others thirdly, (and this point applies to both sides) i carry no respect for npc corp salvagers or mission runners. npc corp salvagers are not deccable, and mission runners are holding to the safety of the npc corp for the same reason, but means the cant dec themselves. short: tbh, hats off to suddenly ninja. they are a deccable ninja salvaging entity in eve and greatly disliked by many mission runners. however, for all the hatred towards them there hasn't been a single wardec placed on them yet. what does that tell you? Answer: people aren't willing to fight over the salvage.
Joe Starbreaker Starbreaker Frigateers Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2008.12.22 07:33:00 - [61] Originally by: Ashley Thomas tbh, hats off to suddenly ninja. they are a deccable ninja salvaging entity in eve and greatly disliked by many mission runners. however, for all the hatred towards them there hasn't been a single wardec placed on them yet. what does that tell you? Answer: people aren't willing to fight over the salvage. There have actually been quite a few war declarations! ............. Now recruiting like-minded pilots.
Onys Cissalc	Posted - 2008.12.22 11:29:00 - [62] Damn, my post regarding that didn't get through... I'd pointed out that we were your first inverse dec :D ♥
shamai	Posted - 2008.12.22 12:01:00 - [63] Salvage is free mmmmm trit bars!
Accipitor Caldari	Posted - 2009.01.03 21:41:00 - [64] Originally by: Jesslyn Daggererux i am lazy. last thing id just like to say. i have heard that, in the beginning, jet cans did not give agro. da bears whined, it was changed. corp agro for stealing a can. and what is the primary use of stealing a can now? thats right...to get agro to trick nubs into pvp. what makes you think salvage agro would be any different? the only people youd stop salvaging is the somewhat honest guy who would warp into your mission, just salvage, and if you asked him to, may even leave. the rest of us will be able to skip a step. dont even need to loot anymore, just salvage for agro to get nubs to attack us. it would kind of be helping us. why would i tell you this? your whining annoys me. why should devs worry about a mechanic we will only exploit (negative connotation be damned, ill use it)further and instead work on real issues. stop whining, your only helping me...and annoying alot of people. is why i'm glad there is no timer on salvaging, a golem is an expensive ship to replace on the other note, while i'm missioning it's annoying to have some one warp in uninvited, i'd be more happier if they would stop that than change the way salvaging goes, i like shinny things. a drake and a 1965mustang have alot in common, they're cheap but thier fittings can get expensive. ./_ _ _ ___ __\ (]]]_ _ o _ _[[[) \|\_o_ __ ___o_/ \| \|__\|..............\|__\|
NightF0x Gallente Chicken Coup Raiders	Posted - 2009.01.03 23:45:00 - [65] Originally by: Accipitor Originally by: Jesslyn Daggererux i am lazy. last thing id just like to say. i have heard that, in the beginning, jet cans did not give agro. da bears whined, it was changed. corp agro for stealing a can. and what is the primary use of stealing a can now? thats right...to get agro to trick nubs into pvp. what makes you think salvage agro would be any different? the only people youd stop salvaging is the somewhat honest guy who would warp into your mission, just salvage, and if you asked him to, may even leave. the rest of us will be able to skip a step. dont even need to loot anymore, just salvage for agro to get nubs to attack us. it would kind of be helping us. why would i tell you this? your whining annoys me. why should devs worry about a mechanic we will only exploit (negative connotation be damned, ill use it)further and instead work on real issues. stop whining, your only helping me...and annoying alot of people. is why i'm glad there is no timer on salvaging, a golem is an expensive ship to replace on the other note, while i'm missioning it's annoying to have some one warp in uninvited, i'd be more happier if they would stop that than change the way salvaging goes, i like shinny things. I highly doubt that would happen any time soon. There should be some risk involved while making ISK. ------------------------------------
stubbles	Posted - 2009.01.04 17:14:00 - [66] If I leave my salvage there for an hour or something, then I'll agree that it's free game. But I've had a lot of people warp in WHILE I WAS FIGHTING and start looting my wrecks. That's right, my wrecks. See my corp name on it? That means it's mine. There's not a single mission that I don't salvage, but I do so after I have completed it (or at the very least, cleared the room). Missions don't pay worth crap, so I make my money from salvage (which I use for building stuff), and mission loot. When you come in and start stealing stuff, you're stealing my livelihood and I have no way of defending it. So honestly, how is that fair? There is ZERO risk for ninja salvagers outside of a wardec, which most hisec corps won't do because they're new players. You call mission runners carebears, yet there's no backlash for ninja salvagers. How is THAT not carebearing? We're simply asking to be allowed to defend our stuff. Make a salvager flash red, or at the very least, put a 30min timer on wrecks that prevent other people from salvaging for that duration.
Kahega Amielden Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2009.01.04 17:41:00 - [67] Edited by: Kahega Amielden on 04/01/2009 17:42:12 Quote: That's right, my wrecks. See my corp name on it? That means it's mine. There's not a single mission that I don't salvage, but I do so after I have completed it (or at the very least, cleared the room). Missions don't pay worth crap, so I make my money from salvage (which I use for building stuff), and mission loot. The corp name means you own the loot, not the wreck itself. You used to have to empty the wreck itself before salvaging, meaning that you had to get aggro if you wanted to salvage. CCP changed this. I don't see them reverting it Quote: When you come in and start stealing stuff, you're stealing my livelihood and I have no way of defending it. So honestly, how is that fair? There is ZERO risk for ninja salvagers outside of a wardec, which most hisec corps won't do because they're new players. A missionrunner complaining about a low-risk way to make ISK. Either a troll or ignorant as hell. Quote: You call mission runners carebears, yet there's no backlash for ninja salvagers. How is THAT not carebearing? You're free to wardec us any time . Quote: We're simply asking to be allowed to defend our stuff. Make a salvager flash red, or at the very least, put a 30min timer on wrecks that prevent other people from salvaging for that duration. Not your stuff. If you want to defend stuff that is not yours, move to lowsec. Originally by: Catharacta My CNR runs on salvager tears.
stubbles	Posted - 2009.01.04 18:32:00 - [68] Yeah, running L4's are so very low risk. Go bury your head in the sand again.
Lei Merdeau Gallente	Posted - 2009.01.13 11:56:00 - [69] Edited by: Lei Merdeau on 13/01/2009 12:00:35 I'm a newbie CareBear and I hate this idea. It would destroy my initial career of salvaging wrecks in non mission space that no one else wants. They just want the bounties. True, its mostly crap. That's why so few want it, and what creates the niche. The salvage I sell would have mostly been lost to the void. More resources for industry!
Grigo M. Corp Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2009.01.13 12:08:00 - [70] Originally by: OldWolfe On the mission runner’s side The only way we can fight them is by the following: -Shoot them and kill them and hope they do not have friends standing by -Shoot them and hope they don’t have a PVP ship standing by wrong...u get poped by concord if u shot someone salvaging ure wrecks...they do NOT get agro do not mistake salvaging whit looting ninja salvagers are from my part a verry big problem in empire..there is absolutly no risk ...but usualy a lot of reward...it is basicly safer then empire mining so any idea that will get a risk in that "miniprofesion" is cool whit me...
Joe Starbreaker Starbreaker Frigateers	Posted - 2009.01.13 17:46:00 - [71] Originally by: Grigo ninja salvagers are from my part a verry big problem in empire..there is absolutly no risk ...but usualy a lot of reward...it is basicly safer then empire mining so any idea that will get a risk in that "miniprofesion" is cool whit me... Absolutely no risk? What's your basis for comparison... mission running perhaps? Ninja salvage is far more risky than mission running, at least. Missions in highsec are the problem.
Cedric Diggory Perfunctory Oleaginous Laocoon Mugwumps	Posted - 2009.01.13 17:52:00 - [72] If you want some recourse for taking out those who come and salvage wrecks that you feel in some way "belong" to you, move out to lowsec and you can freely shoot whoever you like then. If that doesn't appeal to you then either salvage as you go or tough luck, because salvaging is not a crime. Originally by: "Oxford English Dictionary" Salvage Verb save from ruin, destruction, or harm collect discarded or refused material
Fullmetal Jackass	Posted - 2009.01.13 22:48:00 - [73] Originally by: KaiserSoze434 The only possible change I can think of that doesnt undermine the entire mechanic is to make mission areas free fire zones for the runners. Whenever a player enters a mission area that isnt theirs they get a warning. "You are entering a concord sanctioned military operation. (player) has the authority to engage all targets within the operational area at his discretion." It fits with the story aspect of the game, and the mission runner has the ability to shoot first to defend the wrecks, if he has the balls. This --^ Salvage all you like, if you enter MY combat zone, you should get no concord protection.
Camilo Cienfuegos Earned In Blood	Posted - 2009.01.13 23:13:00 - [74] Quote: Salvage all you like, if you enter MY combat zone, you should get no concord protection. Only if the same applies to the mission runner...
Fullmetal Jackass	Posted - 2009.01.13 23:38:00 - [75] I know, why don't we just turn concord off. Then eve can be the harsh and lawless world you all claim it to be. Let's see how long people continue to pay when they can't be reasonably safe anywhere. As it is now ninja slavaging is risk free. The salvager gets concord protection as he reaps reward for work someone else did. Salvaging wrecks in someone else's mission is little more then griefing. Salvage has substantial market value. Taking somthing of value, that somone else creates, is theft. Concord won't respond to theft, but neither should it protect thieves.
Camilo Cienfuegos Earned In Blood	Posted - 2009.01.14 00:03:00 - [76] Originally by: Cedric Diggory If you want some recourse for taking out those who come and salvage wrecks that you feel in some way "belong" to you, move out to lowsec and you can freely shoot whoever you like then. If that doesn't appeal to you then either salvage as you go or tough luck, because salvaging is not a crime. Originally by: "Oxford English Dictionary" Salvage Verb save from ruin, destruction, or harm collect discarded or refused material Note the bold in that, but generally just QFT. Salvaging has been said to be a mini profession time and time again, making it flaggable or breaking the Concord protection in any area of high sec would open one huge great can of worms. That's why I posted what I did; you really, really wouldn't like what we could do with an opening like the one suggested for mission running.
Kahega Amielden Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2009.01.14 00:28:00 - [77] Read up To quote the pure epicness that is PrismX's post: Quote: Why is stealing salvage OK? It's not. It shouldn't even be possible to move an item from your cargo-hold / hanger to another persons cargo-hold / hanger without opening a trade window. Before the salvage enters those containers it is not considered your stuff by the server code. Hence it's not stealing. If you're surprised as to why the server does not consider it your stuff, it's because it's a mini profession designed for people who want to roam and look for salvage, not to further increase the revenue from mission grinding.. I doubt anyone with a perspective thinks we need to high-sec increase mission grinding any further. Simple solution to the non-issue. Please don't take this as any bashing just for suggesting ideas. I have nothing against brainstorming on the forums. However, I'm going to let you in on a little CCP non-secret which is: "NPE". Wink EVE is a really hostile game. We love how hostile it is.. we never meant for it to be a breeze. However, it's also accepted that, on top of the intended complexity, the tools and rules you play with/by aren't highly intuative. You are suggesting a dual functionality.. one for newbies and another for vets (of course you did not say that, however just because some people chill in newb corps and ain't newbs doesn't mean we should punish the new players) and to compound the inherent confusion in that the newbie functionality is more hostile and more open to griefing than the veteran functionality. It shouldn't be much different.. and if it had to be it should be the other way around.
Red Flag	Posted - 2009.01.14 07:46:00 - [78] I didn't bother reading more then the first paragraph and a half of the first post, but I believe salvaging someone's wreck should have the same effect as taking from a can. Red Flag Poet, Prophet, Pirate
Sokratesz Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2009.01.14 09:16:00 - [79] There are no ninja salvagers in 0.0 and lowsec, you should check it out. Stop whining.
ollobrains2 Gallente New Eve Order Holdings	Posted - 2009.01.14 10:21:00 - [80] my proposal a few months back was this leaving all existing things as they are wrecks-cans will now stay active in space for 6 hours 2 hours loot cans - loot are exclusive to those that create them wrecks remain common property After 2 hours up to 6 hours said cans-wrecks become visiable and scannable to all perhaps with existing probes. During that 2-6 hour period if they are uncliamed by the owner under 2 hours they become findable scannable and accessible to anyone ( will also give in low sec areas) scavangers and corp mates who run in the same area a chance to stumble across missions, amols and belt wrecks-loot and pickup. This will put more items into the market, or simply for melting. And will make salvage, cleanup and general ninja professions more acceptible Will also fulfill ccps promise of making wrecks scannable The important point here is under 2 hours wrecks will not be scannable with probes or onboard scanner.. THey will remain the property of the owner aned they can only be scanned with the usual drone-ship scanning situation we have now. Perhaps to satisify the carebears a 30 minute salvage timer can be implemented from time of creation giving them the rights to shoot anyone who salvages under 30 minutes perhaps a new colour wreck-can ( might also be extendable to general loot cans also) so under 30 minutes - exclusive kill rights on salvage+looting - blue can or wreck 30 min - 2 hour = yellow existing system kill rights for loot not salvage 2-6 hours free for all all wrecks scannable. Comment
ollobrains2 Gallente New Eve Order Holdings	Posted - 2009.01.14 10:22:00 - [81] my proposal a few months back was this leaving all existing things as they are wrecks-cans will now stay active in space for 6 hours 2 hours loot cans - loot are exclusive to those that create them wrecks remain common property After 2 hours up to 6 hours said cans-wrecks become visiable and scannable to all perhaps with existing probes. During that 2-6 hour period if they are uncliamed by the owner under 2 hours they become findable scannable and accessible to anyone ( will also give in low sec areas) scavangers and corp mates who run in the same area a chance to stumble across missions, amols and belt wrecks-loot and pickup. This will put more items into the market, or simply for melting. And will make salvage, cleanup and general ninja professions more acceptible Will also fulfill ccps promise of making wrecks scannable The important point here is under 2 hours wrecks will not be scannable with probes or onboard scanner.. THey will remain the property of the owner aned they can only be scanned with the usual drone-ship scanning situation we have now. Perhaps to satisify the carebears a 30 minute salvage timer can be implemented from time of creation giving them the rights to shoot anyone who salvages under 30 minutes perhaps a new colour wreck-can ( might also be extendable to general loot cans also) so under 30 minutes - exclusive kill rights on salvage+looting - blue can or wreck 30 min - 2 hour = yellow existing system kill rights for loot not salvage 2-6 hours free for all all wrecks scannable. Comment
Rondo Gunn Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2009.01.14 10:35:00 - [82] No. Salvage is free for all. If someone risks your wrath by looting your wrecks that's one thing. First come first served I say. Stop trying to take EVE's teeth away. What, do you want to turn this into? Hello Kitty Online? World of Whiners? I mean honestly, grow a pair, please.
Elena Morin'staal Minmatar Tau Online Explorator Corp	Posted - 2009.01.14 12:17:00 - [83] When the bin man comes once a week to take my trash away, I don't *** that he removed it before I could. Let me say as a mission running carebear, I'd rather not have some git come and salvage the wrecks I leave, as I want the ISKies. But wrecks are just that - **, detritus, crap, trash. If someone gets the wrecks before I can, then bum. Time for the next mission.
Grigo M. Corp Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2009.01.14 12:25:00 - [84] Originally by: Joe Starbreaker Originally by: Grigo ninja salvagers are from my part a verry big problem in empire..there is absolutly no risk ...but usualy a lot of reward...it is basicly safer then empire mining so any idea that will get a risk in that "miniprofesion" is cool whit me... Absolutely no risk? What's your basis for comparison... mission running perhaps? Ninja salvage is far more risky than mission running, at least. Missions in highsec are the problem. dude...ninja salvage is 0 risk on any meters compared to anything...if u mine in 0.9 and under u atleast get rats(hily unlikly to kill u but still) salvaging other peoples wrecks is 0(nada,nothing,minic) risk....u dont get agro...u cant get hurt by the owner or by the rats(if there still are any left wen u get there) as there already agresed on the owner.... if all ninja salvagers say they are salvaging from people that leave there wrecks...well LOL and also get a agres timer on the wrecks for 30 min...meaning u get agresed if u salvage a wreck that is younger then 30 min... so get some risk to this "miniprofesion" and im ok whit it...till then i still consider it lame and a bug in my books... RO Originally by: Avernus ...some kudos to using your main to post like an asshat though... doesn't really take balls though, you're on the internet.
Grigo M. Corp Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2009.01.14 12:30:00 - [85] Originally by: Rondo Gunn No. Salvage is free for all. If someone risks your wrath by looting your wrecks that's one thing. First come first served I say. Stop trying to take EVE's teeth away. What, do you want to turn this into? Hello Kitty Online? World of Whiners? I mean honestly, grow a pair, please. actualy u should grow a pare...geting agresion from salvaging makes it posible for more pvp in hisec...so u just flamed ureself RO Originally by: Avernus ...some kudos to using your main to post like an asshat though... doesn't really take balls though, you're on the internet.

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