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Restructuring and Rebalancing Salvage Thievery

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Marlenus Caldari Ironfleet Towing And Salvage	Posted - 2008.11.12 03:00:00 - [31] Salvage is not theft. So "salvage thief" is a nonsense concept. Thus, the original post fails. Per GM Faolchu : Originally by: GM Faolchu Salvaging other peoples wrecks.... This is an intended game mechanic and is in no way an exploit. People salvaging your missions npcs or the player you just blew up are doing nothing wrong. The players are salvaging what is effectively floating rubbish in space and Concord places no value on this wreckage. Eve is a harsh place you won't always have everything go your way, its a do or die world and people do what they can to get along. If salvaging some wreckage gets them a few more ISK someone will do it, it doesn't matter who just blew it up. Per Senior GM Ytterbium : Originally by: GM Ytterbium Players are still completely free to salvage other pilot wrecks at will ... and doing so is not considered as an exploit. (These quotes are kept handy for your convenience at Ironfleet.com.) ------------------ Ironfleet.com
Sierra Lima	Posted - 2008.11.12 03:21:00 - [32] As a mission runner, I have more than a couple of tricks to use against mission probing salvagers. I'm sure if you put your mind to it you'd be able to think of a couple too. I'd tell you are, but that may cause problems for my other career as a salvager. Tell the truth, Marlenus said above all you really need to know. Up to you to put your thinking-cap on.
OldWolfe The Scope	Posted - 2008.11.12 14:29:00 - [33] Edited by: OldWolfe on 12/11/2008 14:29:13 It's amazing how much crying and whining about constructive ideas are happening across WoW-I mean EVE forums. It really seems like the majority of the posters in this thread has a World of Warcraft mentality. However, there are a few gems here and there (both in favor and in critique of my ideas). I will have to get back to them and give a honest constructive reply later in the day. Just keep one thing in mind, the nano-nerf and ghost training is a classic example of CCP changing it's mind about certain things so the salvaging concept as a whole is NOT set in stone. Back to top.
KaiserSoze434	Posted - 2008.12.20 22:15:00 - [34] The only possible change I can think of that doesnt undermine the entire mechanic is to make mission areas free fire zones for the runners. Whenever a player enters a mission area that isnt theirs they get a warning. "You are entering a concord sanctioned military operation. (player) has the authority to engage all targets within the operational area at his discretion." It fits with the story aspect of the game, and the mission runner has the ability to shoot first to defend the wrecks, if he has the balls.
Emily Spankratchet Minmatar Pragmatics	Posted - 2008.12.20 22:23:00 - [35] Whilst I appreciate the effort you put in to creating a solution to what you see as a problem, I have two short comments: 1) I don't see it as a problem. Nor do CCP. And I'm not even a salvage thief. 2) Before you suggest new game mechanisms, you might like to consider the example of loot theft. It didn't exist years ago. Then the whining of the jet-can miners persuaded CCP to introduce can flagging. If anything, that's created a bigger source of forum whining than the original problem. (Also, should be in Features & Ideas)
Tippia Raddick Explorations BlackWater.	Posted - 2008.12.20 22:24:00 - [36] Originally by: OldWolfe Due to the nature of salvaging thievery in this game, there are strong needs to rebalance and give structures for a more fair and realistic environment to the whole idea of salvaging and those who steals. Not very convincing. What are these "strong needs to rebalance and give structure" to salvaging? I'm sure your ideas are fine and dandy, but why are they needed? "The nature of salvaging thievery" doesn't cut it as an argument because it is completely void of meaning. No sig for me, thankyouverymuch.
Zeba Minmatar Pator Tech School	Posted - 2008.12.20 22:35:00 - [37] Originally by: OldWolfe It's too bad people don't know how to read constructive creations on the forum these days. Sadly, the mentality of World of Warcraft is invading the mindset of EVE players. Oh well. Waits for constructive critiques/additions instead of cliche crying about healthy clear thread posts Here is my proposed solution: Open up the info page of whatever faction you happen to be running missions for and open up its member corps tab. Go down the list of corps infoing each one looking for agents that meet your quality standards. Realize in awe that my god there are zillions of high quality agents faaaaar faaaaar away from the mission hubs in perfectly safe high sec nowhere near nasty low sec. Laugh as your the only one in local besides a few miners and lost n00bs as you turbo run all your missions with no interference from anyone. Now wasn't that much easier than subjecting yourself to the forums? inappropriate signature. ~WeatherMan
AkRoYeR Amarr	Posted - 2008.12.20 22:47:00 - [38] @ OP...posting on these forums means you are prepared to eat a **** sandwich and like it. Now that we got that out of the way...your idea has merit except for on thing..this is EvE Online so stop whining aout how you want an openly dynamic game to become something like playing Galactic Civilizations.
Agor Dirdonen	Posted - 2008.12.20 23:35:00 - [39] You keep accusing the others of 'coming from Wow', yet the only thing I keep thinking when I read your posts is that you want it more like 'Wow'. '100 percent risk-free, everything is mine, leave me alone' play style. Sad really....
Gnomes Rock	Posted - 2008.12.20 23:35:00 - [40] Edited by: Gnomes Rock on 20/12/2008 23:38:33 The fact that the OP is in an NPC corp makes this post even funnier. Edit; join a corp and kill the salvagers? Ohshi, that would require effort.
Tinnian Maso	Posted - 2008.12.20 23:39:00 - [41] Don't see the problem myself. If you aren't going to salvage as you go, pop all the wrecks so the ninja salvagers go bug someone else.
Benco97 Gallente Friendly Archaeology Group of Inder	Posted - 2008.12.20 23:43:00 - [42] No. Pick up the junk first if you want it, simple as that. You're not playing a single-player game you know (No matter how much the mission runners would like to think so). Originally by: P'uck You're a DUMBASS - bold italic underline at the VERY LEAST.
VicturusTeSaluto Metafarmers	Posted - 2008.12.20 23:54:00 - [43] "salvage thievery," makes no sense at all as a basic concept. By design, salvage is waste and belongs to no one at all. No owner, no theft.
Ironnight Caldari x13 X13 Alliance	Posted - 2008.12.21 00:08:00 - [44] I have nothing against people that remove junk from the server, let them at it, gogogogogogogogogogo It works as intended move on, the solution is so simpel, move away from the big missionhubs find a nice quiet place to run missions, bonusbenefits includes less lag! They're like 'oh **** son, its a trap ' Doomsday
Hatt0ri Hanz0	Posted - 2008.12.21 00:25:00 - [45] Originally by: OldWolfe Edited by: OldWolfe on 12/11/2008 14:29:13 It's amazing how much crying and whining about constructive ideas are happening across WoW-I mean EVE forums. It really seems like the majority of the posters in this thread has a World of Warcraft mentality. However, there are a few gems here and there (both in favor and in critique of my ideas). I will have to get back to them and give a honest constructive reply later in the day. Just keep one thing in mind, the nano-nerf and ghost training is a classic example of CCP changing it's mind about certain things so the salvaging concept as a whole is NOT set in stone. Back to top.
Kessiaan Minmatar Army of One	Posted - 2008.12.21 02:16:00 - [46] Wrecks should be scannable if there's no player ships nearby (within, say, a million KMs). Other than that everything is fine, IMO. If you don't want your crap ripped off go someplace less busy. Like lowsec - the last thing people there care about is your salvage. ... besides, I've said all I'm going to say. You're reading my sig now! Bwa! -
Misanth RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE Black Legion.	Posted - 2008.12.21 02:52:00 - [47] Edited by: Misanth on 21/12/2008 02:52:30 Originally by: OldWolfe It's too bad people don't know how to read constructive creations on the forum these days. Sadly, the mentality of World of Warcraft is invading the mindset of EVE players. Oh well. Waits for constructive critiques/additions instead of cliche crying about healthy clear thread posts Actually, there's no need to post constructively when your whole argument is based out of opinions. You feel there's a need to fix this, as if there's something wrong? To those of us who think there's nothing wrong, there's simply no reason and/or thing to reply to your arguments. What kind of constructive posting do you want? I disagree with you, and there's no "facts" on either your or mine side. It's that simple. Just for the record, I have never salvaged anyone elses mission, or rats, but I have had people salvaging wrecks after my kills. Usually when that has happened, I blow up the wrecks, to deny them their income. But I feel they have every right to do what they do. First it takes them time to even find this salvage, and if these guys had half a brain they'd run their own missions and/or ratting and make more isk. So basicly, they're just griefing, probably for fun. So, if I get ***ed and/or decide to fight, I play by their rules and I do exactly what they want. If I ignore them and/or blow up the wrecks, I deny them their fun, and I havn't lost anything but a few extra seconds myself. Now, that's just my own opinions tho, and unfortunately I can't back that up and state it as an absolute truth, because.. well, it's my opinions*, and there's no law or facts that can verify it. Sorry man, your first post was worthy a serious reply (hence why I took my time replying). But your whine about not getting constructive replies, is ignorant. You're not very open minded and accepting that people disagree with you. We gotta agree that there is an issue with salvage "thieving" in the first place, before there's a point to (constructively) discuss solutions to fix that "problem". If there even is one.
Mika Meroko Minmatar Crayon Posting Inc	Posted - 2008.12.21 02:57:00 - [48] I hate to break it to you. but the current mechanic is working as intended.... hell, CCP CHANGED the mechanic to help salvagers (before, you have to loot then salvage... making salvager blinky red..) Originally by: CCP Atropos I pod people because there's money to be made in selling tears.
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Umbra Synergy	Posted - 2008.12.21 02:58:00 - [49] this, like the other 12,372 other topics of the exact same nature, has acheived the necessary amount of fail and may now slide off the front page Fallout thinks im cute! I think so anyway
Terianna Eri Amarr Scrutari	Posted - 2008.12.21 03:05:00 - [50] So, basically, if someone wants your salvage, they go flashy red, get shot by concord, can be shot, and podded (!), by you, and if you shoot them their "friends" (whatever that means) don't get aggro? First of all, I don't think you fully understand how aggro rights are done. Incidentally, if you joined a REAL corp, and someone stole from you, your corpmates (in pvp ships) would be able to jump on them and shoot them. Your proposal gives absolutely everything to the mission runner and absolutely nothing to the salvager. What do you even mean, "someone not in the mission runner's group". Is that their corp? Gang? Alliance? __________________________________ Originally by: Arthur Frayn How much to ruin all your holes, luv?
jst tstng	Posted - 2008.12.21 04:00:00 - [51] Calling salvage thieves salvage thieves shows clearly on what side of the argument you stand. CCP clearly made the act of salvaging a wreck not criminal so salvage extractors or space sweepers would be better names for players who do this. You first say that you think the way modules drop into a can is unrealistic but a mission creating a tiny piece of space where Concord cant see isnt. The question is would anyone run missions if there was no salvage to be had?
Terianna Eri Amarr Scrutari	Posted - 2008.12.21 04:13:00 - [52] Originally by: jst tstng Calling salvage thieves salvage thieves shows clearly on what side of the argument you stand. CCP clearly made the act of salvaging a wreck not criminal so salvage extractors or space sweepers would be better names for players who do this. You first say that you think the way modules drop into a can is unrealistic but a mission creating a tiny piece of space where Concord cant see isnt. The question is would anyone run missions if there was no salvage to be had? Of course they would, they did for years before salvage and rigs even existed __________________________________ Originally by: Arthur Frayn How much to ruin all your holes, luv?

CCP Mitnal C C P	Posted - 2008.12.21 13:02:00 - [53] Moved to Features & Ideas. Mitnal Community Representative CCP Hf, EVE Online Email

Galvatine Caldari Dark Materials	Posted - 2008.12.21 13:11:00 - [54] Originally by: OldWolfe It will create a more balance mission running environment where the risk vs. reward is well established with risk of actually losing ship/pod to mission runners. Mission runners can still lose profit from the thievery but it also allows mission runners to have a mean to fight back with no risk of being ganked from aggression countdowns outside of mission areas or month-long kill rights or ConcordÆs interventions. This should help remove the thiefÆs feeling of being in cozy one-sided linear environments that protects thieves from consequences of their own actions and at the same time insert a more balanced and realistic risk with potential penalty for their criminal activities of choice. When did mission running itself become a "risk vs reward environment"? It is all reward with no risk, ergo salvagers can come in and clean up. If you want to make missions more risky you might get some support here.
Khlitouris RegusII	Posted - 2008.12.21 14:24:00 - [55] no such thing as a salvage thief go away troll.
Joe Starbreaker Starbreaker Frigateers Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2008.12.21 23:07:00 - [56] Originally by: OldWolfe Here is my proposed solution: Since MWD has been effectively disabled inside missions, I can see these ideas easily applied. Whenever a salvager thief enters a mission while not in the mission runnerÆs group, the thief is putting himself at risk of being podded by the mission runner with no Concord intervention. And in addition to that, if the thiefÆs ship is destroyed or got him/herself podded, there will be no kill rights given to the salvagerÆs thief. Also, when mission runners shoot the thief, the aggression timer will not pass onto the thiefÆs group of friends. In addition, the aggression countdown will only exist within missions and automatically end when mission runner or thief leaves the mission area. I support this idea but only if it works for all parties. I.e. mission deadspaces become free-combat zones invisible to Concord. I could be ok with that. ............. Now recruiting like-minded pilots.
Mara Rinn	Posted - 2008.12.21 23:26:00 - [57] I support the suggestion that NPC wrecks should be owned by the NPC corps that spawned the wreck, just like player wrecks are owned by players. We should then be allowed to tractor whatever wreck we can lock on to, with the acts of looting, tractoring or salvaging a wreck flagging us to the owner of the wreck. As an extra buff to ninja-salvagers, I'd like to see anyone who loots, salvages or tractors a wreck outside the mission-runner's fleet be flagged to the mission-runner or the fleet. These changes simultaneously: Increases the risk of level 4 missions so people who think mission-runners are carebears can either start ninja-salvaging or STFU Increases the risk of ninja-salvaging so the real carebears can start enjoying risks commensurate with the rewards Reduces income for mission-runners in popular mission-running hubs Increases the potential income of people willing to take the risk
Onys Cissalc	Posted - 2008.12.22 04:30:00 - [58] Originally by: "OldWolfe" Lions of old earth see their kill as their own and will protect it viciously against hyenas or any other salvaging creatures. Most the times lions wins butàwell hyenas also wins when theyÆre lucky once in a long while. Actually, a small pack of hyenas can often chase a pride of lions away from their prey - I'm talking less hyenas chasing more lions. As for why wrecks and loot goes into the same 'container' - it's a database and user interface lag thing. Imagine for a second you had to split wrecks and loot containers. You are, in this step, doubling the amount of onscreen containers that have to be rendered and UI elements that have to be created. Now let's say you're creating a small cloud of dropped items next to the wreckage - this not only creates an insane amount of rendered items (many of which don't even have models anyway), but also an incomprehensable clutter in the user interface. A justification for why the loot gets neatly placed into a container when a wreck is salvaged? The ship's systems do a courtesy-move for you so that they are not strewn over space, causing the aforementioned issues. Why is it 'legal' for another player to do this? Because like in the real world, in some countries, you have maritime salvage laws. Some of these stipulate that where a ship crashes into reefs, onto a beach or otherwise sinks, the company or owner of the ship is by law given first right to any objects that are still on the ship. However, the wreckage of said ship is free reign for any would be salvagers to come and retrieve, if the owner of the ship does not remove it first. In the same manner, these salvagers are able to, illegally, take items from the wreckage - by law in the real world, the owner(s) of this wreckage may protect their interests by use of force, in some countries. Your outlined 'problems' and the sides details something that I feel you are missing yourself. They have friends - why don't you? You also miss the basic game mechanic fact that if they take loot from your wrecks, you and your entire corp are allowed to shoot at them. Even if they bring in friends, they cannot bring anything further than remote assistance modules. Nothing is stopping you from doing the same. Originally by: "OldWolfe" Whenever a salvager thief enters a mission while not in the mission runnerÆs group, the thief is putting himself at risk of being podded by the mission runner with no Concord intervention. And in addition to that, if the thiefÆs ship is destroyed or got him/herself podded, there will be no kill rights given to the salvagerÆs thief. Also, when mission runners shoot the thief, the aggression timer will not pass onto the thiefÆs group of friends. In addition, the aggression countdown will only exist within missions and automatically end when mission runner or thief leaves the mission area. Ok, let me start top to bottom: 1. The thief is putting himself at risk of being podded by the mission runner with no CONCORD intervention. If it is Empire space, then no. If it is low-sec, then perhaps reduce or remove the security status penalty for podding them. Thing is, how is your mission running ship going to lock their pod before they leave anyway? 2. If the thief's ship is destroyer or they are podded, there will be no kill rights given to the thief. Kill rights are ONLY, let me make this very clear only ever given where a ship is destroyed without having retaliated against their aggressor in any manner, and without having had a flag allowing for what is considered consentual combat 3. When mission runners shoot the thief, the aggression timer will not pass onto the thief's group of friends. It doesn't do this in the game right now - I'm not sure where you came to the conclusion that it does.
Onys Cissalc	Posted - 2008.12.22 04:32:00 - [59] Originally by: "OldWolfe" After all, if Concord catches drug runners and other criminal activities including negative sec standing (shoot on sight if -5.0, etc), why would they give support to salvaging thieves within mission grounds? ItÆs a dog eats dog universe, Law and Order vs. chaotic criminal units. Because CONCORD is giving you your free boat ride already. They will come and intervene if these supposed salvage thieves attack you illegally, or if you attack them illegally. If they take items from your wreckages (refer to the earlier maritime law point), then you are by law allowed to use force to prevent them from further doing so. Whether you do and succeed or not is not CONCORD's issue, as in the same way that these people are taking from your wreckages at their own risk, you are defending it at your own risk. Originally by: "OldWolfe" Mission runners can still lose profit from the thievery but it also allows mission runners to have a mean to fight back with no risk of being ganked from aggression countdowns outside of mission areas or month-long kill rights or ConcordÆs interventions. Refer to my previous note regarding killrights. There is nothing stopping you from sitting in a station or POS and waiting out the aggression countdown. Originally by: "OldWolfe" "Riskless" describes salvage ninjas. There is no sensible ninja salvage ship that can adequately tank the brunt of your average lvl4 mission on its own, without sacrificing aspects of the setup that increase its efficiency to the point that it is sensible for them to actually ninja salvage missions over running their own lvl4 missions for nothing but the bounties and reward/lp. They do, thus, 'risk' something, as they may waste time if you leave your mission, causing the rats to attack them. Originally by: "OldWolfe" It's too bad people don't know how to read constructive creations on the forum these days. Sadly, the mentality of World of Warcraft is invading the mindset of EVE players. Actually, your 'creation' is not constructive, as it has some false points in it, and others that do not balance, but in fact cause issues, in the game mechanics. You want the right to pod a thief in empire. That is what war declarations are for - kill rights don't even give you the right to pod someone, only to blow their ship up once. Originally by: "Blastil Or make a game out of it, and take a swig of beer every time a wreck is 'stolen' from you. You know - now that I've read that, I think I'm going to adopt it towards ninja salvaging... I'll take a swig of beer for every 5 units of Alloyed Trit Bar or Melted Capacitor Console I salvage from someone else's mission! Originally by: "Blastil" IRL- Salvage is legaly considered owned by the man who did the salvagin work, assuming that the actual item in question was destroyed or rendered unusable before salvage. You cannot "salvage" your neigbor's car, however you can salvage wrecked cars from salvage yards, or naval hulks. In EVE- Salvage is legaly (by concord) considered to be owned by the man who did the salvaging work. Glad to see I'm not the only person that has a bit of sense for real world laws, and how they're used in games' mechanics. Before any of you spout "THIS ISN'T THE REAL WORLD, THIS IS A GAME". Tell me, what would you do then if you had no currency to compete with in your game? What would you do if you were not allowed to make use of any virtual portrayal of what could be found in the real world, for whatever purpose it could be used in the real world? Would it not be boring if things that you can and cannot do in the real world were to be removed from your game? I think it would be great fun if we removed the REAL WORLD LAWS that exist in this game that prevent me from simply shooting every other person I see on sight, simply because I can and want to. I think I've about covered what needed to be...
Ashley Thomas Kiith Paktu Nex Eternus	Posted - 2008.12.22 05:58:00 - [60] i used to have your opinion on the matter, but then a few things were pointed out to me. first is simply what would happen if salvaging flagged you answer: so what, you can shoot him, but you wont. why? because you know in the back of your head he can come in with something that will destroy your valuable mission ship. if you do shoot him youll dock up right away to avoid losing your ship when he returns and spend 15 minutes in station, all the while he's out salvaging your wrecks. secondly, there's nothing stopping you from doing it to others thirdly, (and this point applies to both sides) i carry no respect for npc corp salvagers or mission runners. npc corp salvagers are not deccable, and mission runners are holding to the safety of the npc corp for the same reason, but means the cant dec themselves. short: tbh, hats off to suddenly ninja. they are a deccable ninja salvaging entity in eve and greatly disliked by many mission runners. however, for all the hatred towards them there hasn't been a single wardec placed on them yet. what does that tell you? Answer: people aren't willing to fight over the salvage.

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